The World's Oldest Writing and What it Says: Irving Finkel

[@HenryJames-q6t]

The British Museum has many treasures. Finkle is one of them.

[@sitbone3]

All stolen from other countries and cultures. The British lead the world in grave robbing. Shame.

[@kemonoyama2084]

Nothing compared to what the Vatican is hiding....

[@RonTodd-gb1eo]

We should have a preservation order put on him.

[@philvanderlaan5942]

One of the few that are actually British

[@CRASHxy]

And most of those treasures were stolen.

[@rhodafort1521]

Phillip Davies asks good questions and does a good job at drawing Finkel out. Most importantly, Davies knows when to draw back and let Finkel have his say. Great interview!

[@drphilipdavies]

Thanks for the kind comment. Appreciated.

[@capt.bart.roberts4975]

It helps that Irving is such a charismatic and very charming, puckish man.

[@fluffywaffles]

Quintessentially British. The world will be less without such.

[@ritahenderson6771]

What a delightful and insightful conversation. Enjoyed it tremendously. Greetings from Germany 🙋🏻‍♀️

[@drphilipdavies]

So glad! Thanks

[@ellengran6814]

Greetings from Norway. Thank you very much, a great conversation 👍

[@KiviK-d7w]

Excellent conversation, thank you very much. Greetings from Finland.

[@Glenn-e4x]

at the latest, when one turns 50 years old, one realises how fast time passes. Just take 110 of me and we are back in ancient Mesopotamia of 3500 BC!! The rate of change in language, habits and technology is mind bending. Thank you for painting such an in depth picture of history.

[@philipdee1415]

Very well said. The rate of change is scary for sure. What my father witnessed in his 82 years of life (1907-1989) by far surpassed what his own dad saw (d. 1916). I'm 65 and what I have seen in my lifetime to date is hard to even comprehend. I grew up in 1960' and '70's in rural Ireland where I have lived all my life but technology and society itself now would be unrecognisable to my parents. The rate of change is exponential to be sure and I have seen many very positive changes as you can imagine but not all change is good!

[@TomlinsTE]

This is my first time encountering a video featuring Dr. Finkel. Based on the thumbnail I was convinced he was either a raving lunatic or a remarkable genius. The world could use more Irving Finkels.

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad you found it interesting

[@vipertwenty249]

Dr Finkel's point about people saying certain things didn't exist before the date that earliest KNOWN example can be dated to is very relevant to other subjects in history. As an amateur blacksmith I am aware that there was a very significant change in steel technology around the year 1000ad, but actual evidence for the invention and use of the double action bellows cannot yet be pushed back further than about the first quarter of the 13th century. This is, as you can imagine, a problem. We know it happened but cannot prove that the required technological leap happened earlier than the archeological evidence can prove. We have the product but not the advanced item of technology that made the product possible. A conundrumnum* indeed. *Learning when to stop spelling conundrumnum is like learning when to stop spelling bananana.

[@tamarlindsay8382]

True also of textile arts.

[@JohnMullee]

non condrumnunun illegitimati

[@robinharwood5044]

I have never thought of the history of double action bellows. So many topics that are probably fascinating and yet little known! (Plus some that are really boring and also little known.)

[@fdsphone6854]

so you have evidence that is was made but cant find how, I declare it was magic or aliens ( I lean toward aliens because I never see anyone talking about magic but single women with cats) .

[@vipertwenty249]

@@fdsphone6854 We have the swords but not the tech that made it possible to make them. I'm leaning towards wizards because very respectable a spinster with a cat and a pointy hat said it was. I know she was very respectable because she said she was and I wasn't about to argue with that pointy hat.

[@Gnarlodious]

My sister's son died in a motorcycle crash 25 years ago and she still has his smiling face on her phone wallpaper. So it's understandable that writing about the dead loved ones has been around since the invention of literacy. As she puts it, "as long as he's in my memory he's still alive".

[@drphilipdavies]

Good point

[@J.JacobReinert]

"The default position of man is NOT to be in a state of religious awe." Utterly subversive wisdom delivered with the humility of true expertise.

[@jdaze1]

Agree. As even God explained this in the bible.

[@3hijos5nietos]

@@jdaze1 God is not in the bible. May I suggest you read or watch Mauro Biglino's books or channel? As fascinating as Irving Finkel. You won't regret it. Stay well.

[@jdaze1]

@@3hijos5nietos Whatever you want to call the creator of the universe. Most High works for me.

[@margaritaorlova6697]

@@3hijos5nietos Still, God is in the Bible. As well as in few other sacral books. That fact is ridiculous to argue 😆

[@zsoltlakatos476]

@@3hijos5nietos you're so right! Mauro Biglino is the game changer for people who want to look behind the veil. Also the Sumerian clay tablets depicted the same stories 2000 years before the old testament. Abraham knew àll of those stories, hence he was from the city of Uruk. All of the other stories were added to the Sumerian texts to make up for the "old testament". David was a tribe leader (at the best!) of some goat herders. Noah was called Uknampisten etc. Wish you all the best!!!

[@josephbenson6301]

That was a great interview... asking him a good question is like pulling his ripcord... the fascinating information just starts following outward. And it is the responsibility of the interviewer to be the stand-in for the listen/view-er and ask the right follow-ups. And that was done very well indeed. Thank you both so much.

[@drphilipdavies]

Thanks for the kind comments. Appreciated

[@CC1992-ox5zw]

It's always a pleasure to hear the wisdom of archmage Finkel

[@marqetteliz]

I see Dr Finkle, I click!

[@cheryllynn2428]

facts

[@pskarnaq73]

Same.

[@ld2906]

True

[@philvanderlaan5942]

Same here

[@hiwakoo]

Indeed

[@SirWussiePants]

My friend's father was a professional golfer. When he passed the family put his putter in the casket. They didnt think he would need it in the afterlife it was just a part of his life and will be a part of him forever. I suspect there is much of that (along with beliefs that the dead would need items in the afterlife). My point being that not all grave goods are meant for the afterlife.

[@Maisiewuppp]

I agree. Grave goods are nowadays used to symbolise or memorialise aspects of the deceased essential being. Maybe that represents a part the finite human spirit which Irvine describes as being necessary for the creation of new life.

[@paulwooton4390]

Seems that if a golf club can be a part of him forever, it could do so in a closet or yard sale just as well as in his casket. Sounds like your friend has notions of an afterlife, or he's at least hedging on it. The doctor derides religion (1:07:09), then goes on to say he believes Gudea or some other ancient will at some point answer questions for him. How does he suppose that will happen except by way of an afterlife or by magic, where Gudea's statue starts talking? The afterlife will probably differ in actuality from all our views and opinions, but the possiblility of there being one cannot be ruled out, except by not thinking about it, which even skeptics like Dr. Finkel find difficult to do.

[@SirWussiePants]

​@@paulwooton4390many things we do in funeral practices are to make the people left behind feel better, not for the dead themselves. I can't speak to Dr Finkle's beliefs but I suspect he is joking. I believe when you die your brain synapses stop firing and that is the end. I don't try to tell other people what to believe as we all need our crutches in life to make it through a day. The best life is one lived well and kindly.

[@egay86292]

there is an archeological subroutine that bears mentioning---genetic sampling of remains and grave goods for the DNA of survivor spittle.

[@Quakeboy02]

And even if the grave goods *were* intended for the afterlife, that doesn't mean that there actually *is* an afterlife.

[@Deej-ef9qo]

When I was in highschool we had a friend that got killed in a car wreck. In his coffin we put notes,cell phones, joints and other trinkets. None of which were intended for use in the afterlife. They were more along putting a piece of us with him. ♥️🙏♥️🙏

[@colinmcnally5931]

Do you get any calls?

[@Deej-ef9qo]

@@colinmcnally5931 not even a text message.. and now that I think about it I think it might have been a pager .

[@fibber2u]

So you put into the coffin things that were culturally important to yourselves and your friend. You did not put in random things, they are objects that will be tells about your culture if found by researches in some distant future. Your belief in the afterlife is at best weak in the past it was considered an absolute certainity. The nature of our beliefs will be even better known in a distant future because we are going to leave so much more stuff than did the ancients.

[@andrewfuller9156]

The BBC should have given Irving his own TV series. He would have been a great addition to the ranks of on-screen history-related specialists. His infectious enthusiasm and air of eccentricity put me in mind of 1970'S scientist celebrity, nutritionist, Magnus Pyke.

[@JohnnieAshton]

The Woke PC BBC would not touch Dr. Finkel with a barge pole, he isn't Socialist, he isn't a mindless moron, so wouldn't fir their idiot agenda. I've just watched Kenneth Clarke's Civilisation series from 1960s, today they would like to ban it being shown.

[@whisped8145]

Unlikely to happen while we enter a new era of authoritarianism, and that very BBC being a willing and happy facilitator of that. Can't have the critical minds who warn against exactly such on there. For a time the BBC did, though I believe those were historic fig leaves.

[@iMertin]

He. Does have a couple shows but can’t think it’s bbc He done a show on the ark for a American tv show The ark before noah

[@timbob1145]

I wish that Dr. Finkel were given an enormous sum of money and students to simultaneously educate and exploit for the purposes of piecing together all of those tablets and pieces yet to be researched.

[@drphilipdavies]

If only...

[@timbob1145]

@drphilipdavies yep, if there were more teachers with as much personality, passion, and expertise as he, a lot more young people would be inspired. On another note, I think we are on the verge of more funding being made available for research in various areas, purely due to the clear interest in certain areas demonstrated by youtube viewing statistics alone. Well funded media outlets need to pay attention to this, find people such as you and he and provide the funds and resources necessary to carry out meaningful research and provide hours of interesting content. Never before have we been in a position for researchers and archaeologists, etc, to be directly funded by simply recording or live streaming the research itself. I mean we have the History channel cashing in making succesful series with many episodes from hoaxes, money pits and small scale gold mining, why not with actual research on genuine archaeological sites of real interest. It's so frustrating that all the money seems to go to the most pointless purely entertainment based productions, when there are so many things to be discovered and clearly millions of people are hungry to watch these things, hence dying tv statitsics, thousands of KZbin channels on the subject of archaeology and ancient history, the sciences etc and the explosive growth of A.I channels exploiting interest in these subjects while offering no contribution. If all these smaller channels were brought together by youtube or amazon or whoever, imagine what could be achieved, along with providing people with some damn good stuff to watch. Apologies for the rant, but why on earth has this sort of thing not been pursued? Seems crazy to me.

[@ashleybasson5664]

AI can do that faster than humans can

[@timbob1145]

​@ashleybasson5664 not necessarily, ai may be able to match up the pieces with others to reconstruct the tablets, but reading and interpretation will be a human task for a lot longer.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

Wonderful interview. Especially like Dr Finkel’s take on not trusting authority and always going back to the primary source. So much of modern science has become dogma because this principle is ignored.

[@vmhutch]

I love Dr. Irving Finkel. His online lectures are wonderful and his dry cutting sense of humor is legendary. He looks the part, too. He looks like someone sent from central casting.

[@mikeduffield8281]

Finally at 76 yrs of age and male. I'm officially in a cult. Dr. Finkle my hero. Made game if ur.. Thank u.

[@JohnnieAshton]

Similar, but when someone said cult I asked if they had spelt that correctly🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[@craigwilkinson7328]

What name do we want? Finkelologists?

[@VidkunQL]

19:25 _"...Babylonian-speaking or Assyrian scribes created for themselves resources... which have been indispensable for the modern scholar. Their dictionaries are our dictionaries, and their grammars are our grammars."_ I'll bet they would have been delighted to know this.

[@noahbrown4388]

Wise learned men of all ages know the value of preserving knowledge

[@bonneyfinnegan8514]

I just love Irving Finkle! Look for his video about having built an ark. He’s the best!!

[@egay86292]

he's superstitious. crude. colonized.

[@AKoMMusic]

Can you please link to it? 👍

[@Van-xk7gn]

I think it's this one: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZDJnKOQiNOtaKssi=RGtNc9HA0oHTwwGQ

[@3hijos5nietos]

Dr. Davies, I thank you from Chile for your conversation with Dr. Finkel, for asking some of the questions I would have liked to ask him. Dr. Finkel is always so interesting to listen to his comments and insights. Frankly fascinating. I am very grateful to him for the way he helps me think and the connections he makes in my brain. Thanks to both of you.

[@drphilipdavies]

You are very kind and your comments much appreciated.

[@davidswift9120]

This is one of the most thought provoking interviews I've listened to/watched over the last few years. I've even used an AI to write some of this speech to text. Many thanks. I've subscribed to your channel.

[@drphilipdavies]

That's really encouraging. Many thanks.

[@jamesburnett7085]

I am so very impressed, not only by Finkle's knowledge, but also by his wonderful ability to articulate what he knows. What a beautiful mind.

[@capt.bart.roberts4975]

I personally hate the way that our generation so underestimates our ancestors intelligence and knowledge.

[@svm3224]

And they are always portrayed as being hideously ugly!

[@AndImsomelady]

I this kind of thinking spans many generations

[@musiqtee]

Agree with OP and first commenter… Philosophy and history of ideas seem to show, this whole idea of “historical derision” spreads with modernity, after kicking off with the Iberian «discovery» of the Americas. Ironically, the enlightenment carried a lot of criticism against this idea of «human progress», but got lost as Darwin’s ideas got adopted into economics - aka «social Darwinism». No fault of Darwin himself, rather a very convenient tool for the quite fresh idea of a nation state, built on industry, consumption and capital outside the state. The counterpoint is that “historical racism” seems less important in more ancient conflicts. Empires (Greek, Roman) saw everyone outside as “barbaric” - without pointing specifically to “Berbers” of North Africa (Arabs may (!) have…). Empires were not “national”, but indeed like a “state”. And, ethnic groups fought each other, but not necessarily for “the state”. Rather, against it, as long as nomadic lifestyles competed with civic ones. Still, these ancient empires themselves told stories of emerging and diminishing empires. Modernity seems to have put an end to the acceptance of “civility” coming and going. Modernity can be seen as the era when nomadic life - non land-owning people(s) - was defeated. What we sadly call “progress”…? Finkel’s statement at 35:20 may point to this (way better that I could even dream of doing…). Wengrow & Graeber “The dawn of everything” is a good source, giving some perspective on civic exceptionalism - and modernity in relation.

[@AndImsomelady]

@@musiqtee I agree with you too.

[@concerninghobbits5536]

To quote SpongeBob, "Old people are our greatest national resource!"

[@DK640OBrianYT]

This is one of two true revolutions of mankind. First and foremost, the availability of information in all fields and form. And the second being people from all over our planet coming together in the commentary fields. Agreeing or disagreeing doesn't matter. What matter is the direct and *unfiltered* contact.

[@brianshea4177]

Wonderful conversation. Thank you both.

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@NetzachUmholtz]

What a treasure. Thank you for posting.

[@drphilipdavies]

Thanks for listening

[@ld2906]

Human beings have never grown up. There you go. Sin. Original sin. Evil and the working out of salvation. That's about the size of it. Wonderful. Just wonderful. Thank you.

[@drphilipdavies]

You're very kind, thanks

[@ld2906]

@@drphilipdavies mean it....

[@ellengran6814]

I would argue there is no Evil, only arrogance, stupidity and lack of memory. Whenever we humans believe we are Gods and create something, we later experience how little we know. We created irrigation-systems and the first City of Uhr...only to later find out our irrigation caused saltification and destruction of the soil = starvation, fighting and the destruction of the City of Uhr.

[@TheVirpa]

@@ellengran6814 evil is working on thoughts and desires. It can only whisper

[@undernetjack]

One who can say such as 'there is no Evil' has led a sheltered life. Evil exists and is embraced via detrimental selfishness, gluttony of Ego and lust for power over others. It is visible everyday, everywhere: compare life today with 40 years ago.

[@hArtyTruffle]

I’d love to hear Finkel and Hutton (another English treasure) talking about any subject about which they both have knowledge. Thanks for the upload ✨👌🏼✨

[@drphilipdavies]

Great suggestion!

[@hArtyTruffle]

@ Thanks! Hope it happens at some point… Happy New Year ✨🎊🎉🍾✨

[@spacelemur7955]

I listen to many of Finkle's lectures, and there are almost always nuggets of insight that make me sit up. He is truly a treasure.

[@carolsaia7401]

Professor Finkle, I believe you are an ancient Mesopotamian Wise Man Soul and you came into this life to save the language and knowledge for this generation and going forward. I am fascinated with ancient cultures, Human Development, all the Big Questions and Reincarnation and Near Death Experience. I have come to the same conclusion, that we know we are more than bodies and go on. Maybe informed by Neanderthals and all having near death experiences... I have been told I had many past lives in the Middle East. My man is from Afghanistan. Lovely to listen to you. Ghosts exist too! Some of us can see and hear them.

[@ianmarshall9144]

yeah get an education and stop talking bollocks

[@mencken8]

Love videos with Dr. Finkel!

[@JonathonPawelko]

Dr. Finkel is just so interesting and has such a quirky way of presenting the history of humanity. I am so grateful that the world has researchers like him, I am sure that he has influenced many academics and many interested people like me to just appreciate the treasures in the cuneiform tablets. Even a cuneiform grocery list versus a chronicle of wars tells so much about history, Dr. Finkel and others appreciate this, in a sense the grocery list is more important because it tells the actual story of the people day to day. Thank you for yet another interesting interview. Cheers from Canada.

[@versioncity1]

He's great. I've met him a few times and once he has a few glasses of wine down him he is a bit of a wild card. The world is a better place with him in it.

[@miguelclarkeottovonbismarck]

Ahh the land of Tyranny!

[@gingerbordeaux9055]

I love Irving Finkel! Any time I see a lecture by him, I click right on it!

[@rhodafort1521]

The highlight my yearly visit to London is going to the British Museum. Being able to go everyday sounds like a beautiful dream.

[@drphilipdavies]

I used to do that as I worked round there as a student, but can't do it now as they make you queue for 20 just to get in

[@Guts-DemonSlayer]

Beautiful, wonderful, and very bery interesting. Thank you, both of you.

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@anrit5972]

Crawling about under the sun in a rather pathetic fashion, sums us up perfectly.

[@carolsaia7401]

Also, see UK's Steve Judd, Astrologer. He is making a film on the history of western astrology and the large cycles of time. He is amazing and very experienced.

[@Liam-B]

Finkel portrays the archetypal-spitting-image of 'the scholar' every time I see or hear him. A rare man in any age.

[@drphilipdavies]

Thanks

[@karincarl4535]

I guess you can add a 0nother person to your "Fan" Base, Mr. Finkel, my favorite people are intelligent and always reaching to understand more. I'm in. What a great interview, with Mr. Finkel. A Deep & Meticulous Thinker. Thankyou so much, I learned some very important things from your discussion.j❤🎉

[@drphilipdavies]

Thank you, appreciate your comments

[@janr3inhardt]

Dr Finkel for the win!

[@wuzgoanon9373]

I would enjoy very nuch seeing this great gentleman sprinting up those stairs as he described! What a guy.

[@judithobinna2396]

Very insightful. Thank you for this.

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Jeffroh]

Wonderful listen to Dr Finkel. What a learned, charming human being.

[@txtardis7887]

Good talk, thank you both 👍

[@donaldquicke547]

Brilliant, thank you both

[@Yuval_L1974]

What a gem Irving Finkel is.

[@danielgregg2530]

I wish every purported authority I encountered on-line were as carefully analytical as Dr. Finkel in his presentations. He might consider giving a talk on the philosophy of proper scholarly presentations. I am consistently an admirer of his for the quality of his work in this regard. That said, he said something substantive here that rather shocks me. After discoursing forcefully on the need to always remember that historical people are human beings with the same fundamental nature as ourselves today, he promptly goes on to become overly theoretical in his discussion of the prevalence of grave goods, ascribing them in a rigorously rational way to a belief in the afterlife. What this approach entirely misses is the profoundly emotional nature of death, even as he references the same in his remarks. Surely anyone familiar with contemporary burial practices in our own time should know better than to come to such a conclusion. Such practices can be a marked example of how human beings do purely emotional things devoid of any rational reason other than supplying a purely emotional benefit. To this day individuals in European civilization still may employ grave goods with no expectation of their use in an afterlife, or even in direct contravention of belief in an afterlife. Examples abound in popular literature here and there, from the woman who wanted to be buried in her Ferrari sports car to people being buried with wedding rings to the family that buries a child with a favorite stuffed animal, or even to the posthumous promotion of an ROTC cadet buried in his uniform bearing the higher rank insignia; this latter was done in spite of the family's staunch expression of belief in the Christian God and that their departed son and brother was at that moment with Jesus in Heaven, clearly with no need for any naval cadet uniforms or rank insignia. Even the deceased may leave instructions rendered before death for such preferences, as though a last gasp at holding on to their life, something that has appealed to me even as an atheist. The bottom line is, in our own culture today people employ the grave goods phenomenon as a gesture to help them deal with their grief, something that will make them feel a little bit better over the loss of someone important to them. ( I am particularly reminded of how, after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Americans named everything in sight after him; it's not that he needed memorializing, as if anyone for the next couple of generations could ever forget him.) It's as though they do this as a way to try to hold onto, in some purely emotional way, the person they have lost. It's key to realize that this is purely an emotional, not at all rational, gesture to give them a quantum of comfort in the wake of the death of a loved one. Thus, whenever I hear of yet another ancient, even prehistoric burial with a grade good or two, I NEVER presume any belief in some remotely formalized system contemplating an afterlife.

[@drphilipdavies]

Thanks for your comments. Most helpful.

[@Cat_Woods]

Those are very good points. I agree.

[@RuralSpanishRetirement]

I think you are correct. I am thinking to my own father’s funeral, a humanist service since as a family we have no belief in an afterlife but we did put things that were important to him in to the coffin. We dressed him in some very snazzy gear that we knew he would have liked. I’m still not sure of the rationale behind this.. did we do it for him or for us? Because of the nature of grief and death being such a difficult subject to approach rationally without emotions I think many people do see these ‘offerings’ as something that will bring comfort to the deceased.. therefore they believe he/she will be aware of them, and so they can symbolise a belief in an afterlife but also many modern people who believe in an afterlife are also sophisticated enough to understand that if there is an afterlife.. these objects could hardly be needed 💁 apologies if I have not expressed myself clearly.. thank you for reading all the same.

[@stefancover5956]

Thoughtful point, but I don’t think you are right. Finkel’s point concerns the origin of grave goods, not their present day, secular manifestations. In pre-iron age societies, as far as we know, all deeply religious in culture, it is entirely plausible that grave goods had their origins in these deeply religious contexts. The explosive development of later cultures, customs, and cultural memory embedded these practices in all kinds of contexts very different from how they originated. Because of this, the “modern” secular use of grave goods is essentially irrelevant to Finkel’s contention here.

[@Cat_Woods]

@@stefancover5956 That something is possible does nothing at all to prove that it is indeed the case or even probable. We have no evidence about what they actually believed, so we shouldn't be asserting that we know one way or the other.

[@Justin-x4i]

Lovely discussion. I enjoyed listening to the topic, the intellect and his voice. The way he described recycling the human spirit concept. Thank you.

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Maisiewuppp]

Love Irvine’s view on humanity essentially being independent of historical context.

[@victoriakidd-cromis1124]

I also believe that human nature has not changed. Things like jealously from a love triangle, envy because your business is more succcessful than mine. rage over who won the gladitorial contest, etc.....And every ancient society had some form of religion. I enjoy listening to you.

[@drphilipdavies]

We haven't changed much as human beings

[@infernalsorcery7923]

​@@drphilipdaviesthe mouth and crux of all religion and cultural dogmas is the transcendent, unifying, and ever-present heart of Mysticism/Esotericism. There are quite a many more stories alike this brilliant man with cuneiform, just in their own circumstances of course. Particularly the bit where he mentions how after only a few days in his experiences with it, he'd devleoped incredible conviction to dedicate his focus to it at the scale of a lifetime.

[@lefty7510]

Thanks for sharing this. I'm very interested in the origins of language & writing and found this very compelling.

[@LarryHancock-z3t]

Finkle is just the best... I so admire him.

[@clcole5655]

Fascinating discussion- so glad I found this episode!!!

[@sandieking9007]

Dr. Finkle is a treasure!

[@okaytoletgo]

For the gracious host and of course Dr. Finkel and other readers of these comments who are, clearly, interested in writing. There is a wonderful film about the (supposed) creation of the Korean PHONETIC alphabet in 1443 AD--- Joseon Dynasty, The King's Letters, the film is called. I have streamed it more than once due to its subtlety. The unmasking of the current geopolitical crisis has sorely tested my nerves; I hope others here are stronger. Reading an article about the creation of hangeul, I learned that one concern of the King was to deal with the level of violence that was breaking out at the time by allowing the subjects to more comfortably express their concerns.

[@drphilipdavies]

Many thanks. Appreciated

[@Joao_133]

always delicious to hear Irving

[@biddydibdab9180]

Irving Finkel is a treasure in the world..

[@handlesshouldntdefaulttonames]

"...Story-teller with a cult following..." DAMN RIGHT I AM THE CULT.

[@arnoldvezbon6131]

In pig farming we put on nose rings to prevent pigs from digging under the fence.

[@handlesshouldntdefaulttonames]

@@arnoldvezbon6131 And that has relevance to this conversation how?

[@errolholmes3838]

I don’t understand why they try and give the first writing to Mesopotamia. Egypt was writing at the same time if not before 3500 bc

[@auntypat7140]

There is Noble Prize winner in 2019, Olga Tokarczuk. She wrote a novel AnnaIn in the Graves of the World which takes place on Mesopotamia. I wonder if it is any good in the eyes of professor, but I am not even sure whether the book was translated into English yet

[@roybatty2030]

What a very fascinating man and a brilliant interview, thanks.

[@orsoncart802]

Fascinating! Thank you. 👍👍👍

[@ansfridaeyowulfsdottir8095]

Irving Finkel is always first class value. {:o:O:}

[@helennoakes3675]

What a wonderful conversation. Thank you.

[@SirBoden]

Grave goods seem to be placed for the comfort of the living. You don’t necessarily need to have the conception of an afterlife for people to want comfort. If bringing your great aunt her favorite pie and putting it in her grave give you comfort, that’s reason enough.

[@johnryan4454]

Not at all, since real wealth was interred with the dead. Belief in the afterlife helps many people cope with the idea of their own mortality.

[@truebrit7388]

Brilliant talk! Don’t you just wish Dr Finkle had of been one of your school teachers? 👍

[@johnryan4454]

No - do you think he is kidding when he talks about his education being beat into him?

[@egay86292]

no. he is as religious as a nun.

[@BeingBoringx2]

I wish he had been my grandfather.

[@capt.bart.roberts4975]

I love the fact that they had staff exorcists. They're still hanging around in the margins of religion, occasionally wreaking havoc.

[@Nostos95]

Real life Dumbledore talking about history is insta-click.

[@capt.bart.roberts4975]

Our ability to think of the deep time of our own history, is very difficult to do.

[@whisped8145]

I love Professor Ridcully's lectures. Never miss one of them. The Unseen University's fees may be a bit high, but worth every penny. You can even learn to pretend to get used to the smell of the Ankh and Morpork. My first roommate sometimes took a shortcut right over the river when it was so dense with refuse that it was a quasi solid, almost like asphalt, but then he misstepped and, well, you know how it is bad breaking in and falling under the ice. Now imagine falling "under the asphalt" made of the cities refuse and old furniture. Let's say he wasn't quite the same anymore and had to drop out. He's very good with brooms though, and I heard they put up a sign "Don't walk on the river", but I never checked whether they really did or it does do anything, for some people just step on the grass despite there being quite nice and polite ornamented signs asking you to pretty please don't, as I mainly run from lecture hall to lecture hall and still get lost in the corridors on the regular. I guess some magic only works on those people who allow it to work on them.

[@drphilipdavies]

What a great place to learn!

[@StaxRider]

Very much enjoyed this interview!

[@drphilipdavies]

Very kind. Thanks

[@MikeBanks2003]

I think this was partially translated ages ago. The middle bit is uncertain, but the first bit says "Find them" and the last bit says "Forget them".

[@CurtOntheRadio]

Excellent, thanks. I wished there were fewer occasion for interruption but that's a personal bugbear. The issue of whether people have changed 'inside' is an intriguing one. It's interesting to me as I tend to reject the usual notion that we can't and shouldn't morally judge people of the past in our own terms - and the two things seem possibly related imo. About 300 generations of humans since writing 'began'? 12,000 since homo sapiens itself began.

[@drphilipdavies]

I try to make sure the interviewee has the most say

[@CurtOntheRadio]

​@@drphilipdavies I certainly enjoyed the interview and am grateful for it. It's just that if you ask a multi-pronged question which could easily be the basis of even a non-exhaustive book (as you did), I find it frustrating to not hear the answer (because too many other interesting threads come up and are pursued instead via interjection). I'm sure it's a tough job and as I say, I'm very grateful. Just......I wish interviewees would be given more space (seeing as it isn't a combative interaction with an evasive guest). Sorry, I'm labouring the point. Appreciate the reply. Much thanks!

[@drphilipdavies]

Point taken. Thanks

[@CurtOntheRadio]

@@drphilipdavies I feel very churlish for grumbling like that. Sorry. ;)

[@drphilipdavies]

Don't feel bad. Your feedback helps.

[@roseanne7016]

Dont let this die out

[@drphilipdavies]

I hope to speak again to Finkel next month

[@ZodyZody]

As much as I find this conversation fascinating, I'm reminded of our Eurocentric viewpoint and I wonder at the same time about the other civilizations that possess a different history or those who have lost their history, like Native Americans. Would love to hear about Chinese and Indian historical writings.

[@StonedustandStardust]

Excellent interview.

[@drphilipdavies]

Thanks

[@terryhealy8338]

What a lovely man to listen to.

[@harriehausenman8623]

Wonderful conversation! 🤗

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@davidstokes8441]

In my second year of High School we had a text book by Breasted, and in that we studied the Mesopotamian beginnings quite closely.

[@drphilipdavies]

That's rare

[@joejones5677]

Wonderful conversation, always love listening to Mr Finkle, but I disagree that the presence of burial goods necessarily indicates a belief in the afterlife. I think the presence of grave goods amounts to the clearest statement possible about the life of the deceased. You'd get more information from them than the average headstone. Q. Wasn't it the Christian church that stopped this practice? (and in doing so, did they not usher in re-cycling...)

[@Rhombohedral]

5:33 LOL Dr Finkel Such a great interview by the interviewer and the interviewee

[@marclawrence7844]

Speaking of education (in the U.S), my high school curriculum included a year-long course in world history and cultures that extensively covered the fertile crescent and Mesopotamia.

[@margaritaorlova6697]

All those writings were translated into Russian and taught at universities back in the former SSSR in my time there. Prof. Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov had done a huge work on the subject. So, there is nothing new here for myself as a general and comparative linguist, PhD. Thank you, anyway, for enlighting the general public as to the topic!

[@ericwillis777]

What a interesting and accomplished acedemic - a great story.

[@joangordoneieio]

Ive admired this mans work for decades. He is a treasure.

[@drphilipdavies]

I passed your comment on

[@christymalekani4104]

Learned about Mesopotamia when I took Ancient History in the 10th grade. Thanks Ms. LaChance!

[@drphilipdavies]

Glad it was helpful!

[@elizabethmcglothlin5406]

Glad to be in Irving's cult!

[@johnryan4454]

Then you didnt really understand what his core system of thought is. To summarize - he would probably tell you go start your own!

[@drphilipdavies]

"I wouldn't want to be in a cult that would have me as a cult follower"

[@NiobiumThyme]

I'm part of a cult? That's Nifty at my age.

[@vecvan]

No, he's saying you roll along on wheels, *culc*, like Greek kyklos, whence English bi-cycle. Common misconception because both arrange in circles 😂

[@picassomooon]

What’s another name for a donkey? Yeah, that’s you.

[@NiobiumThyme]

@@vecvan That's not near as exciting.

[@ld2906]

​@@vecvan🤣

[@ld2906]

​@@NiobiumThyme thoroughly boring for some. No doubt 😎

[@WyreForestBiker]

Fascinating discussion . One thing I disagree with is that burial objects necessarily mean belief in an afterlife in ancient humans. That is one interpretation of course but it could be a much simpler tradition of respect and closure.

[@drphilipdavies]

Good point

[@mrmcfee154]

Lovely conversation to end 2024 with.🙏

[@drphilipdavies]

That very kind of you. Happy New Year

[@jvin248]

I think it would be a grand project if Irving Finkel could collaborate with an AI language system to teach it how to read clay tablets and then feed it the 10k tablets that no one has looked at to decipher yet. I have seen a few of Irving's youtube videos revealing maps and trade complaints and there must be an interesting treasure of other findings in there.

[@vithehoneybadger2641]

Mr Finkel is a gem of my fair land.

[@RafaelFernandezViedma]

Finke is the number one! larga vida maestro!

[@mindyourself7063]

I’d like to thank both of you gentlemen for a substantive and rich discussion. ☃️

[@philipdavies2676]

Many thanks.

[@petrosros]

I enjoyed this discourse very much, I was surprised Irving did not mention that the classical Greeks had a very similar view of the underworld, unless I missed it. Homer prior to the classical period has Odysseus wondering around in hades. So does Faust, for different reasons.

[@TatianaBoshenka]

After a lifetime of having cats, I began at some point giving them grave goods. I'm not thinking of them needing them in the afterlife, but maybe giving context and information about them and their lives to future scientists, or maybe just fulfilling some emotional need that isn't logical or science-based yet. (Until science can tell us more about the human (and mammalian) heart.) Or a need to demonstrate some final act of love and care for them. I buried my cat Mouse with her favorite heating pad. She'll need 120VAC 60Hz power in heaven to use it, so I don't expect they would have that. I also gave her a few cans of Fancy Feast, an old drivers license of mine so she can find me again (in this mythical far future when we're all resurrected by intelligent and super-technologically-advanced aliens). And a string of Mardi Gras beads for a cat toy. It truly is comforting to me to bury this collection of things with her. I still do miss her many years later and feel a bond with her. I don't mind it being said that I have some kind of belief in an afterlife or other, but it's quite vague and amorphous, if so. My love for her survives, and that is enough.

[@LisaEtter]

Grave goods are a mark of how valuable the individual was. There is no doubt that the cat was most cherished and valued. It's a final mark of forever love.

[@VirusVanquisher]

Mr. Finkel is a treasure, love his mind and this was an incredible example of it. I have a genuine question and it is kinda important, the conversation around @43:00 approx had peaked a long question of mine, the excavations around Ur dating 7000 years ago during the Ubaid period, the 120 figurines. Would you say this makes the most sense, the "individuals" buried with those figurines envisioned their form with their children...because bearing children is a big deal to that subterranean lizard looking culture? I first saw these figurines a few months ago and it made clear a 28 year old mystery. I will not go into more detail here. @1:06 The "HHMMM" hits close to home. How short we are of the glory, and we all know it. Or maybe not, @1:07 Finkel goes full 3rd eye blind. My friend, religion is the crystallization of faith. Faith does not mean that we believe only what we cannot PROVE, but what we cannot attain on our own...CREDIT my friend. The thing Satan replaces with the new system. You will know this to be true, IF you can hear the master.

[@disrupt_ist]

I would love to be able to read cuneiform inscriptions because I feel drawn to them as if they would reveal a memory or a past trauma. I have a very vague memory of a global cataclysm. Something like a planet collision and I remember running through a forest and up to a large dome made out of stone, with many people inside meditating and chanting and I ran to an opening in the dome, and I was asking someone to meditate, and she was telling me it's too late, they won't be able to stop the collision. A strange conversation and a very vague memory. The only other thing I can say is the community wasn't panicking like you could imagine people would today, and it was a very tribal community, similar to south Americans.