The WORST designed 2nd level spells in D&D 5e

[@InsightCheck]

Hey you guys have changed my mind on Continual Flame, you can stop commenting on it now hahaha :P I still think it’s way too overpriced for its effect which is a big element of design but it’s not that egregious.

[@Silungar]

At my table, there's this saying that something "a Crown of Madness", which means: It looks cool, but is ultimately useless. Something I liked so much that I canonized it in-universe.

[@InsightCheck]

That's hilarious!

[@alexeybalabanov6917]

Hey don't diss on continual flame, it's a spell that makes the world seem more believable, and show that magic is not only for combat. In addition casting continual spell with a higher spell level makes it make light of a higher level. Making it light an area of darkness. And in the heat of combat you can take out the covered flame to light a way and even light up the way underwater

[@marcos2492]

I think this really needs a part 2, there are more 2nd lebel spells that deserve a (dis) honorable mention! Great content btw, keep it up!

[@tibot4228]

I think that Continual Flame, like Tenser's Floating Disk and other spells I can't think of right now, simply follows an ethos closer to spells from older generations: actual utility/problem-solving spells. You aren't going to win even a social encounter with it, but it can come in clutch like once a campaign, and if you're a cleric that prepared CF once in their whole lifetime or a wizard who can ritually cast TFD, you haven't lost much.

[@fallenphoenixiv]

IMO 2nd level spells is one of the red headed step children of spell levels. (4th and 7th are also weird)

[@InsightCheck]

Hahaha honestly you’re not wrong. It’s a really weird spot.

[@TheBahamaat]

Yeah, those levels are really underdeveloped. Level 1 and 3 seem to be big combat focus, while level 2 seems to "need" to play the role of utility spells AND also escalate the combat stuff. Level 4 has the same issue, as being caught between the rush of level 3's big spotlight spells, but not quite the end of tier 2 power level of 5th. 7th has the same effect. Overall the whole system needs a rethink and subsequent revision and rebalance.

[@InsightCheck]

@TheBahamaat for sure. In general most power spikes seem to happen on odd numbered spell levels so the even levels feel… well.. odd haha

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

4th i particularly feel like most 4th level spells are weaker than most 3rd level spells, Or at least there's a Lot of overlap in power. Which is the bane of warlocks of those levels who feel like they don't get any stronger, But start to feel like Wizards can now cast. Just as many spells that are just as powerful as pack slots in a full day But with low leveled Spells competing with Eldritch blast a better list and increased flexibility on when they cast their big guns that's less reliant on short rests

[@avengingblowfish9653]

2nd level spells are where the best Druid spells are: Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Moonbeam, etc.

[@infern0711]

Many of my casters just use 2nd level spell slots as backup slots for Shield or Silvery Barbs, unless I take a 2 level Paladin dip in which case 2nd level is only for smiting.

[@TheReZisTLust]

You can use a wizards/clerics classes spell slots for Paladins smite feature? Am I seeing this wrong lol

[@infern0711]

@@TheReZisTLustyes you can. It you can’t smite with a spell slot higher that 5th level. But a sorcerer can convert other spell slots into 5th and lower level for extra smites.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

I remember seeing that enthrall thread multiple times, cause the guy who posts it posts it anytime someone talks about how bad enthrall is

[@InsightCheck]

Hahahaha that’s amazing.

[@guyfawkes8873]

Detect Traps is actually worse than you make it out to be. You forgot the ‘line of sight’ part. If the trap is hidden (so… most traps) you gain no information at all. In which case you will probably go straight ahead and trigger the trap thinking alls well!

[@fortunatus1]

I haven't tested this out yet but I think that Enthrall can be made very powerful if you add something along the lines of: targets that fail their save are Charmed by you as well as having disadvantage on their perception checks. It effectively becomes Mass Charm Person and has no wording about the targets realizing they are charmed (revised 5e is also getting rid of this). I also added in a bit about how you can use music instead of a distracting string of words.

[@aaronandrighetti6153]

Here are the changes I made to the spells mentioned in this video: Crown of Madness: - Can target any creature. - The charmed creature can use whatever weapon they are currently holding to make the attack with. - The caster can use their action to impose disadvantage on the saving throw the charmed creature makes to end the condition on themselves. (This allows the caster to target ranged attackers as well, and forces them to weigh the pros and cons of using their action to maintain control of the target.) Continual Flame: - Made it a ritual spell. (This is a flavor spell and shouldn't have to expend a spell slot. I left the cost so that low-level adventurers are just spamming it and leaving eternally burning flames everywhere lol.) Heat Metal: - The affected creature now only gains the disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks if it fails the Constitution saving throw. - The caster can use their bonus action to force the creature to remake the saving throw. On a failed save they take 2d8 fire damage and have the disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks. On a successful save, they only take the damage. (This splits up the damage and the negative effects of the spell between a saving throw. Regardless of the save, the target will still take damage, but now it has a chance to resist the disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws.) Pass Without Trace: - The caster now emanates an area of silence in 10-foot radius around themselves. - Creatures of their choice receive a +10 bonus to their Stealth checks while they remain within that radius. - At higher levels, the radius increases by 10 feet for each spell slot used above 2nd. (This forces the creatures that will benefit from this spell to stay close to the caster, which will force them to come up with clever solutions to certain situations instead of just cheesing it.) Tasha's Mind Whip: - On a failed save, the target takes 3d6 psychic damage, and it can’t take a reaction until the end of its next turn. Moreover, on its next turn, it must choose whether it gets a move, an action, or a bonus action; it gets only two of the three. (This still makes it a strong spell, but doesn't completely eradicate the action economy of the enemies.) Dust Devil: - Increased the range at which a creature is affected if it ends its turn within to 15 feet instead of 5, and on a failed save, the creature is pulled up to 10 feet towards the dust devil. (In real life, tornadoes and dust devils pull things into them, so it makes sense to do that instead of push things away. Also the increased radius makes up for the minimal damage.) Web: - The area it fills is now a 10-foot cube. - Burning webs deal 1d4 fire damage for each 5-foot section. - It can be upcast, increasing the size of the area by 5 feet for each spell slot level used above 2nd. (Reducing the initial size limits the area of the battlefield that it impacts but still makes it viable for for smaller areas, like tunnels or hallways, but the ability to upcast allows more powerful casters the option to really shut down large portions of the battlefield. Also, the reduction in damage makes the focus on it more battlefield control than damage, as it appears to be intended.) Enthrall: - It now requires concentration and lasts for up to 10 minutes. - A creature that fails their saving throw becomes oblivious to any creature other than the caster for the duration. - The caster knows if a creature failed or succeeded on their save. (This allows the spell to kinda like a localized Pass Without Trace and give the feeling that the caster has drawn the complete focus and attention of those around them. It also gives the caster the same knowledge of who succeeded or failed, just like Zone of Truth. I see this as the caster causing a distraction/performance to allow their allies to do something like sneak by, grab someone in the crowd, etc. Definitely still a niche spell, but I think this gives it much more versatility.)

[@corymorse4271]

My player used enthrall pretty regularly to do what calm emotions does, namely reduce the number of assailants for a round or two. It's circumstantial but the circumstances make for great stories like distracting swarms of rats or rust monsters from attacking your party, keeping a single party member from being singled out for arrest or interrogation in a group and--I can't stress enough-- pulling aggro on a whole crowd that then cannot attack you while you use charm person on the stragglers who saved. I don't discount the criticism of the spell but it is socially as useful as pass without trace is in stealth scenarios.

[@BeorOng]

I know others have chimed in for continual flame, but another usage for it could be as a trigger since it remains until dispelled...so my usage for it could be to combine it lets say with a glyph of warding and summon familair....set a buff glyph at base, when you need the buffs extinguish the flame to signal to your familiar to activate the glyph, return familiar to demiplane and reappear at battle sight. This is to get over the 100 ft distance limit of communication incase youre in a big city and home base is too far to telepathy with your familiar

[@jerrybeard8995]

Continual Flame not so bad.. and Clerics can change them out. We made an attachment for our dragonborn's shield (who doesn't have darkvision), so they could see in dungeons without having to tie up a hand with a torch. Plus a flaming shield is really cinematic. If you couldn't change out it would be bad.

[@avengingblowfish9653]

This content is a guilty pleasure for me because I have strong feelings about the balance of 5E spells and the dopamine hits from your confirmation are great. However, would you consider throwing in some ideas on how to fix these spells? For example, Crown of Madness could be fixed to require the target to actually move towards the closest creature if there are none within reach...

[@InsightCheck]

Haha I’m glad you enjoy it :) I do occasionally throw in ideas but admittedly it hasn’t been the focus as most spells just have so many different ways to go about a fix but I could definitely consider doing more of that for the future ones!

[@Dogo.R]

Continual flame gives flame for pyrotecnics and conjure elemental (fire) without using a spellslot that day uf rest casting umsceen servent to light a tiuch on demand doesnt work. It is also a part of darkness strats, since it can turn off darkness temporarily or in certain areas via upcasting.

[@tibot4228]

I agree they should have allowed "minor" saves to shine some more. Just to name a few effects: - Strength saving throws should be invoked against pretty much anything that also causes you to fall prone or be pushed. Thunderwave calling for a Con save is criminal. - Intelligence saves are a mix of "brain constitution" and "RAM": apart from mind flayers/Tasha's Mind Whip trying to overclock your brain, disbelieving illusions, including effects that affect your mental capacity like Hypnotic Pattern, should call for Int saves. Int saves should also be used to resist Scrying effects - or, rather to allow you to notice the Scrying has gone through (but if the spell isn't changed, it should be a Cha save). - Charisma saves should be invoked for any "power level" effect: 5e did it with teleportation/banishment (when the devs remembered), but it should also be used for curses and metamorphoses (Polymorph, Enlarge/Reduce...). Dare I go further? If you wish to affect an unwilling creature with a spell that requires a willing target (there are nuggets of this, e.g. Seeming), you might even call for an attack roll + Cha save, though this would probably be unbalanced in most case, so maybe limit it to spells with a range of Touch. I've actually counted how many spells would be affected and Dex, Con, and Wis would still have way more spells forcing those saves.

[@DemoBytom]

I don't fully agree on continual flame. It is useful in a survival campaign when you don't have access to cleric/wizard/light spell. I was playing Tomb of Annihilation, the whole loong first part in Chult. We had no way to restock things like oil for lanterns or new torches. And we only had an artificer. Continual flame came in handy, giving us lanterns that wouldn't go out. Although I do agree on one thing - this spell is mostly for world building.

[@not-a-theist8251]

I find continual flame completely fine tbh. Like yeah it is pretty bad but again its a flavour spell. Doesnt really matter that its expensive in my opinion.DOnt get me wrong it propably should be cheaper but it's no where nearly as badly designed as all the other spells on your list

[@InsightCheck]

Yeah others have mentioned the same. I think you have all changed my mind.

[@KaelinGoff]

If you are a dm, heres our changes: Web: Always a save, not skill check. TMW: No issues. Its better at higher lvls when you use 2nd lvl spell slots more freely, but more situational then too. Encourages teamwork too. Find traps: it finds trap. Doesn't disarm it though. Srs, still crap but at least not trap. CoMadness: no action required. Can use action at any point during the creatures turn. Still not great but funny. Heat metal: con save for no disadvantage. Pass w.o trace: Redesign - no bonus, caster makes stealth check and applies to whole group. Makes rangers happy to be good at sneaky. Haven't used the others at table.

[@KaelinGoff]

Comadness: no action to maintain*

[@gystes_]

Continual flame grants permanent immunity to the darkness spell when upcasted. Because it doesn’t produce heat and can’t be smothered, you can cast it on, say a flamable spell focus that you can store. Now torches are no longer a need

[@InsightCheck]

I suppose this is true haha! I've never seen it used this way before, most people would just cast Light but good point!

[@TheReedsofEnki]

​@@InsightCheckI have a character that upcast this on the wick of her lantern for exactly this reason. It has come up once already and not having to ration oil is useful.

[@InsightCheck]

That’s awesome, I love that!

[@fortunatus1]

Players can use this spell in the way described above but its truly just a world building spell for the DM to use in magical or wealthy locations.

[@TheBahamaat]

The gp cost is to prevent the spell making settings 'too modern' by creating modern widespread illumination. It's one of those "worldbreaking" effects that D&D developer should flag possibly as a setting-dependant spell and make optional to the default spell list.

[@takanobaierun]

Suggestion is weird too for there is so much debatable with it.

[@InsightCheck]

Suggestion is definitely a weird one. I thought about it but opted to not choose it since I think the biggest “issue” it has is just that people often miss the “reasonable” caveat in the text.

[@nadirku]

I am curious if Suggestion will get a rewording, and/or how it will compare to the "Influence" Action rules introduced in the One D&D/2024 D&D UA's... Like at level 3 an Eloquence Bard with a +7 on the ability check due to Expertise in Persuasion, and a +3 Charisma modifier would be able to automatically succeed on the "Influence" DC against any creatures with a 17, or less in Wisdom, or Intelligence, even if the ability check has Disadvantage. While other characters with a +4 Persuasion modifier would have a 50% chance at succeeding a straight ability check against a DC of 15, going up to 75% with Advantage (because the target is friendly), and down to 25% with Disadvantage (because the target is hostile). If they are a spellcaster, with a spell save DC of 13 at level three, a character would have a 50% chance of success using the Suggestion spell if the target has a +2 on the Wisdom saving throw, though for a non-Charisma caster that could be a far better chance of success than using Influence action directly. Also, with UA Rogues getting Reliable Talent at level 7, they could be built to be able to automatically succeed on the Influence action, like if they take the Updated Actor half-feat to boost their Charisma modifier to +2, starting at level 7 they would be getting a minimum of 15 on their ability checks with Skills they are proficient with, allowing them to automatically "Influence" any creatures that understand them, unless the creature has a 16, or higher in Intelligence, or Wisdom, If the Rogue uses their Skill Expertise with the "Influence Skills", they would be getting minimums of 18, and automatically succeed unless the target has a, Intelligence, or Wisdom of 19, or higher. Depending on how much overlap there is between the usages of the Suggestion spell, and the Influence action, level 7 Rogues could be built to get something on par with "a Warlock Invocation for at will casting of the Suggestion spell (and the Mass Suggestion spell?), without having to spend a spell slot, with the added bonus that targets automatically fail the save if their Intelligence, and Wisdom are too low" But these seem very dependent on what a particular DM will deem as "reasonable" for the Suggestion spell, and the non-magical Influence action.

[@tibot4228]

Be honest, this video is just an excuse to trauma-dump about Crown of Madness.

[@InsightCheck]

Hahahaha you got me :)

[@booklover4078]

I have broken encounters by first casting spells like web or black tentacles and then follow it up with mind whip because if you use your action to get out of the effect you then can't actually get out of the effect

[@davidarmstrong1617]

Heat Metal: I use this as a house rule to balance it out, "As you cast this spell, you summon a cage of fine lines of arcane energy to swiftly close on the target. If the target is being worn or carried by a creature, then the creature may make a Dexterity save to twist out of the way before the cage fully forms. If they fail the save, the cage of energy sinks into the target of the spell, and it begins to quickly heat and glows red-hot." Easy solution... give the target a one chance shot to get out of the way of the spell. After that, they can do what everyone else does and try to disrupt the caster's concentration.

[@TheBahamaat]

Enthrall should swap places with Charm Person and essentially act as a single target hypnotic pattern (concentration, charisma save, charmed and incapcitated until ends), with the kicker that after the spell ends, instead of knowing they were charmed, the spell gives a buff to interaction. OR eliminate the spell, AND use the name for the higher level Dominate effect, since the world literally to render someone your thrall (trans. slave). I think Enthrall could be a good entry-level step to a completely rebuilt progression of enchantment/charm spells like the optional rules in Kobold Press' Deep Magic. And put Charm Person at level 2 or even level 3. And the charm spell line should have some mechanical interaction with social mechanics. Like most magic it can enhance one's own talents (and therefore not noticed as a direct spell effect by the subjects, maybe), or it can short-circuit the whole thing and impose one's will on another with the consequence being the target is aware of the influence.

[@InsightCheck]

This is honestly a cool idea. Mind control effects are extremely powerful and could use a rebuild overall and I think a distinct line of progression with different types of effects could be really cool and not just “the same but worse” which is kind of how they are now.

[@daniel_.-]

You can use entrall not as a way to hide thing but to get attention. The other thing is give a target the feeling its alone with your. Niche things but, i use it with words of terror (bard feature). And if u use it on 1 person you will notice of it sees other people around.

[@CalebWillden]

I've actually seen Crown of Madness used effectively before! Exactly once, haha. Getting rid of someone's action, especially if they're a heavy hitter, can be quite useful even if it's only for one round. But you might as well just cast Hold Person instead. 😆 I also used Enthrall effectively once! But only because it was an always-prepared spell on a custom subclass and I wanted to see if I could find a use for it. Making a scene in a tavern so my party member can sneak around back did the trick. But I'm pretty sure my DM would have allowed it without the spell. 😆

[@InsightCheck]

Hahaha that's awesome! Yeah I probably would have just let that work without the spell too :P

[@daneroberts1996]

First time viewer and I like the video a lot! Would be keen to see some brainstorming on how to fix these spells if that’s something that interests you

[@garethhamilton1252]

I’ll just mention where I disagree with you. Continual flame is a useful spell for a more old school style of play. Consider players owning or building a stronghold or keep. Continual Flame allows them to illuminate it without having to constantly worry about buying in torches, candles or lamp oil. Even more so if there are underground areas where burning flames would consume oxygen and produce unwanted smoke. As for the cost, it’s the same as 5000 torches or just over 200 days worth of torchlight. After a couple of years benefit not counting the convenience it provides, you’ve got your money’s worth. And how often do players bemoan they have nothing to spend their gold on? For a more everyday practical use It can provide light for a dungeon delve without the need to carry supplies of torches or lamp oil which might encumber you or run out. Sure you can take the light cantrip, but you can’t cast that while you are sleeping and should your party be attacked in the dark while you are resting it saves needing to use your first action to cast light in order to see. Also, if not everyone in the party has darkvision it offers them light to see by while you rest. Pass without trace I commented on the previous video you talked about it. It’s fine. I’m all for my players doing a bit of sneaking rather than just killing everyone they encounter, but if they don’t think they will succeed? Well, murder it is! Web is good but I have never considered it too good. The 20’ cube is not a large area, a Dex save avoids the restraining effect entirely and a strength check ends it. It’s never been a problem so far. The issue I have with the web spell is you make the dex save at the start of your turn, so you can cast the spell and some creatures lower down in the initiative order may not yet be restrained when they are attacked. It’s required a house that you make the dex save when the spell is cast.

[@Klaital1]

One thing I would like to note is that not all spells are really designed for player characters. Some are meant more for monsters (things like crown of madness, mordenkainen's sword, etc) being very flashy and cinematic, but not very powerful, or meant for like 'cutscenes' like storm of vengeance or something which you just use to explain how bbeg flattens some town, and some are there more to explain some in-game logistics, like for example continual flame which is there just to explain how dungeons can have these everburning torches.

[@MauroDraco]

I love ALL Insight Check videos!

[@InsightCheck]

Aw thanks! I really appreciate that :)

[@MauroDraco]

@@InsightCheck unrelated: I've sent you an email, I'd appreciate it, if you could take a look on it =)

[@Klaital1]

Web would definitely not be used as 5th level spell, as the 4th level Evard's Black Tentacles is basically just strictly better version of it.

[@r.9820]

Where is "see invisibility"? The worst spell in the game. It doesn't ignore or remove the invisible condition of the creature. So you still have disadvantage, at most difficult the stealth of an enemy. And what is worst you have no way to tell if a creature is invisible or not, while using this spell....

[@williamgordon5443]

A small note about Heat Metal. It says, "Any creature in physical contact with the object" and most of the metal armor in the players handbook say they have a layer of cloth under the metal and most swords have some kind of cloth wrapped around the handle. So most creatures aren't (technically) in contact with their weapon or armor and won't face the consequences.

[@someusername9591]

Idk fam that’s one step shy of saying “oh technically your molecules don’t touch, so you didn’t catch me” when playing tag. Also, by that logic wearing armor blocks any touch spell.

[@williamgordon5443]

@@someusername9591 The problem with your statement about spells with the touch requirement, is that they don't usually require direct "physical contact" like what Heat Metal requires. So Heat Metal would be different then spells that just require touch. Different wording is very important.

[@someusername9591]

@@williamgordon5443 “physical contact is not a codified word in the D&D lexicon like, for example, “melee weapon attack”. Regardless, would a football player tackling another even though they are both wearing clothes be considered “physical contact”?

[@williamgordon5443]

@@someusername9591Football is not D&D. In football, the phrase "physical contact" has a defined definition that is not in D&D and the word physical has a definition of "related to the body" which is why I'm pointing out that it's not well defined in D&D and is a little vague as to what it means. Yes, it could relate to contact through another layer like cloth, but sense "physical" (by definition) is "related to the body" could narrow that down to DIRECT physical contact.

[@someusername9591]

@@williamgordon5443 I do agree that DND using natural language to explain their rules only serves to make things more confusing. However “physical contact” is not a necessarily well defined phrase either. You pointed out the definition of “physical” being “related to the body” but the connotation behind “physical contact” has expanded beyond that, culturally. That is why I gave footbal as an example. It falls under the “physical contact sports” umbrella, even though usually you would wear clothing in such sports. Thus, I would argue that “physical contact” does not necessitate skin contact. The fact that we’re even having to argue this does bring to light the lack of clarity in certain spells. At the same time, I find your interpretation of the spell very uncharitable and somewhat pedantic as the intention of the spell seems very clear to me. Lastly, if you’re thinking in world, a gambeson still would not stop a red hot piece of armor. Unless it was special or something

[@crimfan]

A lot of the spells you're highlighting are legacy spells that got implemented in odd ways. Heat Metal was OP back in 1E and it's been carried forward. It's not as bad as it used to be but it has now been written very awkwardly. The "answer" spells are also ones that are legacy. Pass Without Trace is too good; it'd be a lot more balanced if it was Advantage.

[@InsightCheck]

Yeah this is absolutely true, they are legacy spells but that doesn’t mean that it’s ok for them to be poorly designed. They’ve been brought forward in an attempt to maintain their history but some work needs to be done to keep them in line!

[@crimfan]

@@InsightCheck Oh, I totally agree with you, but I think the designers were trying to thread the needle of keeping old legacy items around and they didn't do a good job.

[@InsightCheck]

@crimfan totally on the same page :)

[@Erik-um1zn]

Crown of Madness was an attempt to carry over a 4e power of the the same name, though I can't remember what the details of that power were at the moment. It's the classic example of trying to give a really cool spell/power to the player, but having to plaster it with restrictions due to the low level in the name of balance, its basically an attempt at Dominate Person lite that fails. Find Traps was a response to the criticism that spellcasters keep stepping on Rogue's toes; or in other words: it was an attempt at niche protection. Continual Flame has been in D&D since at least the old AD&D days in roughly the same form, so I can see why it's there. Agreed on Heat Metal. Pass Without Trace could be reduced to only affecting one person, with an additional person per spell level. That way you can send in a scout, but to give the whole party stealth, you're going to spend a high level spell slot. I'm not sure if Tasha's mind whip is poorly designed or just a bit overtuned. Agree on the rest.

[@InsightCheck]

That’s great context for Crown of Madness. I also totally understand how potent and powerful mind control effects can be. I just kinda wish they just didn’t even try with such a low level spell haha!

[@Erik-um1zn]

@@InsightCheck Yes, I agree. Over the years I've tried to tinker with it to make it salvageable, but that is probably the best option. Granted, they're not going to do that for 1dnd, so we can only hope they tweak it in a way that makes it useful. Spell design in 5e is tricky, as you not only have spell level, but the action cost (action, bonus action, reaction) and concentration (and as you so aptly dubbed it: Super Concentration). That's not even getting into V, S, M components (and cost of M, if any), range, duration, number of targets, which save to target, and/or area shape. Personally, I hope they at least get rid of the action cost each round for the caster (not sure if that alone would do it).

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

The web spell collapses immediately in the air, though. Collapse means to fall down. I always rule that web does not work on flying creatures as they need to start their turn in the web but the web already fell to the ground

[@InsightCheck]

You're totally free to run it that way if you choose but RAW it totally works on flying creatures. The web collapses on itself and if it was cast over a flying creature, it collapse on itself on top of the flying creature! The web then disappears at the start of your next turn. The only reason for that specific wording to be included is to suggest that it lasts and still has an effect even if it isn't supported in some other way.

[@marcos2492]

​@@InsightCheckalthough I agree with you, I wanna add that as a counter-point this make another spell of the same level, Earthbind, MUCH worse. If web can do what Earthbind is supposed to do (ground flying creatures) and then also potentially restrain them, ooof

[@josephpurdy8390]

Break off from the rest of your group, before casting enthrall. If enough people are being captivated by the caster. That is one less that will be keeping a look out, or searching for other group members. This spell is best used as a distraction.

[@InsightCheck]

Sure but also if the goal is simply distracting, there’s cantrips or 1st level spells that can do that too and maybe distract an entire group.

[@josephpurdy8390]

@@InsightCheck In the movie 'Poltergeist' only the little girl was effected by enthrallment by the television. However, because the child's behavior was unusual. The other uneffected family members took notice of her. If your just going to assume that everyone has eyes on the back of their head. When they pass the wisdom check, sure its useless.

[@guyfawkes8873]

Pass without trace is not as good as people play it out to be. Many tables don’t use the actual stealth rules (mostly cause they’re organised like hot garbage), and let people roll for Stealth even when not heavily obscured. Fact is, if you’re not heavily obscured, you’re spotted automatically, unless covered by a feature that lets you hide when only lightly obscured. Now do I disagree with the stealth rules as written? Yes. But if you play them as written, Pass without trace is not nearly as bad.

[@InsightCheck]

For what it’s worth, you absolutely do no have to be heavily obscured in order to successfully hide or be stealthy. The first sentence of the Hiding rules in chapter 7 of the PHB states “The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.” It goes on to say how you can even be considered stealth and a DM may allow a roll if a creature you’re sneaking up on is just distracted, regardless of your level on obscuredness (that’s definitely not a word but should be lol). Anyway the point is I think a lot of people play fast and loose with the stealth rules because well… they are pretty fast and loose haha.

[@jjones8423]

You hit 5 k 😊

[@InsightCheck]

I did! It happened yesterday right before the One Shot!!

[@CK-ys3tu]

Some of these really bad spells for players are fun for dm’s to use like crown of madness

[@ExplosiveFloofBall]

The discord link doesn't seem to be working

[@InsightCheck]

Thanks for letting me know. I just updated it, hopefully it works now!

[@ExplosiveFloofBall]

@@InsightCheck the tab closes automatically when I click the link it's not happening with other links

[@flikersprigs5641]

ok something that I'm noticing is that you have a problem with "flavour spells" as you put it and quite frankly you're wrong, those spells need to be there, there should be more of them, and they're not "trap spells" they're points of world building. A complaint about pf2e I have is the lack of these spells it makes the game world feel fake. Also it should be expensive, light was, until the 20th century, a big deal, and the only reason its not in 5e is because of how many ways you can get darkvision, the light cantrip, and the fact that no one asks where all the oil for the torches and lanterns comes from or who changes them every hour.

[@InsightCheck]

I have no issue with flavour spells at all. I was wrong about Continual Flame and acknowledged that in a content already :)

[@indigoblacksteel1176]

My party almost never takes Pass without Trace or Web. I won't argue that they're good spells, but must-haves? There are a LOT of 2nd level spells that are really good. You only have so many spells and Aid, Darkness, Detect Thoughts, Dragon's Breath, Enlarge/Reduce, Find Steed, Heat Metal, Invisibility, Misty Step, Spike Growth, Spiritual Weapon, Tasha's Mind Whip, ... and a dozen more very good spells are ALSO available. Needing our WHOLE PARTY to be sneaky just isn't a thing we want to spend a 2nd level spell slot on. Trapping people in a 20 foot cube is nice, but generally we lean towards Spike Growth or Darkness or even Moonbeam with some good forced movement options. It's fun to hear what different groups favor.

[@InsightCheck]

There absolutely are a ton of great 2nd level spells, I even said as much at the beginning of the video! Again, the point of the video wasn't to say which spells are the "best" or "worst" but ones that have problematic design. I'm not saying there aren't better spells than Web and ones that you wouldn't rather have, it's just that the effect for Web (just as an example) is disproportionately powerful when compared against its spell level.

[@TheBahamaat]

PWT should be lumped into the spells that enhance environmental interaction. Maybe making it a trade off for not having Survival proficiency by spending the spell slot (and remove the ritual tag from it) to use the caster's spellcasting ability + proficiency bonus as their Wisdom (survival) or Dexterity (stealth) check. You spend the short term resource (the spell slot, or racial ability for earth genasi), to replace the skill proficiency choice (long term resource spend). Again, spells like this need to developed with the other encounter types in mind, and make them more interactable with those mechanics. It's a great, evocative, spell for fantasy rp, but the mechanics are very kludgy due to previous edition assumptions about play styles.

[@arturohernandez8789]

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