Can Man City's dominance be separated from their 115 charges?

Manchester City have created English football history by winning a fourth consecutive top flight title. But do Pep Guardiola’s side get the recognition their achievements deserve?
Does future dominance depend on how long the manager stays and is the whole debate overshadowed by the 115 charges they face for alleged breaches of Premier League financial regulations?
Ayo Akinwolere is joined by Man City writer Sam Lee, senior football writer Oli Kay and Manchester football writer Mark Critchley to discuss.
00:00:00 Intro
00:00:06 Man City’s forth title in a row
00:05:25 The looming 115 charges
00:15:45 How City have changed the league
00:18:30 Are Man City boring?
00:30:40 Fan reaction
00:32:55 Guardiola’s future
00:38:32 Guardiola v Klopp
00:42:00 City’s business in the summer
00:44:20 Final comments
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#mancity #premierleague #guardiola

[@gavinbinding]

How can you sit there and say “fair play to the manager and the players, even if they’re guilty.” 🤣🤣 get in the bin 🗑️

[@leolovetoparty]

...it's literally *un*fair play...

[@eX1st4132]

Because they did the best with what they were given, I guess. Even if they knowingly and willingly played for a club that has been handed more than any other since the dawn of time, and blatantly cheats. Obviously Pep is a good manager, KDB is a good player, but this is absolutely a bad thing for them.

[@leolovetoparty]

@@eX1st4132 “they did the best with what they were given” implies they were somewhat hampered. _Poor them_ 🫢

[@eX1st4132]

@@leolovetoparty No, you've got it the wrong way around. What they were given was more than any club in history, and it was given to them illegitimately

[@leolovetoparty]

@@eX1st4132 I know - I think we're making the same point 👍

[@BeezSays]

“It’s the brilliance of Guardiola”. Yeah, that’s fair. And he’d have come to City without the financial doping tbf. He’d want to walk the same hallowed halls as Keith Curle, Terry Phelan and Nicky Weaver. Somewhere like Manchester City is the logical next step after Barcelona and Bayern Munich, innit. 💀

[@DPmelodies]

And the players they've bought would've come for less money if they could not cheat...

[@miseconor8104]

Or he’d want to join all the executive staff that he’s best friends with from his time at Barca…

[@MarkHalberstram]

Sam comes off as a bit of a twat here. Sycophantic to the City hierarchy, defensive and snippy.

[@DeeClarke-lg1hp]

Journalist trading integrity for access once again shocker.

[@ymo6096]

Haha... I love to hear it. It is not ok to defend City. What about you wait and hear the outcome before you judge City???

[@MarkHalberstram]

Even if they’re absolved of all charges, which they won’t be, they’re still a sportswashing machine for a slave state. I think I’ll judge them thanks.

[@DeeClarke-lg1hp]

@ymo6096 the outcome? Absolute joker. City have delayed this with lawyers for years.

[@ymo6096]

@@DeeClarke-lg1hp That is your M0ronic opinion. Make believe !! Can you prove it? Or just by what you read?? Get out of here bro.

[@cm1545a]

Save yourself 45min: no.

[@panchonacho5855]

The answer es YES. The logic it’s easy. Give Guardiola any top team of the premier league and obviously competitive enough money to spend (ex: Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man United) and he will win the premier league and probably become dominant for years. So, can we separate archivements from the charges? YES. Reason? Guardiola. Could any other manager archive what Guardiola archived at City even with the “advantages”? Answer: NO Ps: for all the arsenal crying babies, don’t cry. Guardiola someday will retire so keep it up fellas, someday you might win 🤣😁👍

[@natesn0w562]

@@panchonacho5855 Koop can do it, Carlo can do it. A lot of manager can do it. I’m not taking away Guardiola talent. He’s a great coach but so are others. Others have taken teams that are nothing and made them something. Can you say the same about Pep? Did he accomplish what he has at City with Bayern?

[@endatreanor5263]

@@panchonacho5855 Well in 2007 City were paying Stuart Pearce 600k a year (900 adjusted for inflation) and now Man City have reported Guardiola's wages at 19.7 million and that's City so who knows what he's actually being paid so Guardiola is part of the charges.

[@cm1545a]

@@panchonacho5855 uh…there would be no Pep without the 115 charges cause City wouldn’t have been able to build a team to attract him. But, ok…make a poor point to laugh at Arsenal. Internet is weird.

[@harryselwind]

@@panchonacho5855 So your argument is that, if Guardiola could win with a team that doesn’t cheat, it doesn’t detract from his winning with a team that does cheat. Not only is that silly, you also miss two crucial points. One: if Guardiola had been managing one of the non-cheating clubs, he would be competing against cheating Manchester City under some other top manager. There is absolutely no guarantee that would be successful in such circumstances. Two: if cheating is irrelevant to City’s success, why do they do it?

[@seanknight8074]

Sam Lee is, obviously, completely partial. Waste of time

[@dfhkjsh5199]

This is the first episode of this podcast I have listened to where one of the guest is defensive and keeps interrupting others. Couldn't finish it. Had no idea who Sam Lee was before this, but now know to stay clear of anything he's involved with.

[@gmoney1664]

You two are both idiots 😂 Sam Lee is a United fan, who is paid by the Athletic to write about Man City. The very fact that he's so impartial when his natural instincts must be to go at City show how good he is. Go read up more, you'll benefit in the long run

[@samde9922]

Does my head in

[@ymo6096]

Lol. It is obvious people don't want to hear the truth. You have to say City is guilty to get the M0rons hear.😂

[@namer6914]

​@@ymo6096 they are sore losers

[@alialio14]

You cant talk like Pep would have even considered joining city without all the big money and promise of signing big names. So the answer is no you can't separate the two.

[@safeasmilk1]

I'm going to still separate the two

[@kitotapgono1467]

​@@safeasmilk1 same here, Chelsea (my team) and United have spent comparable or much more than city in that period and haven't achieved as much

[@meentage]

​@@kitotapgono1467 wtf are you on. No team spends close to the amount of money city is allowed to spend. No team has two 100m players on the bench

[@RNJK-youtube]

@@meentageand wtf are you talking about. stop chatting shit and being delusional. the stats are there to see. not “which other team has 2 100M players sitting on the bench” Fyi only jack is 100M. so get your facts right because you’re only making yourself look like a salty moron

[@andresramirez8233]

As long as the charges are not cleared, there will always be asterisks on their titles

[@collapsiblechair9112]

yeah 115 of them

[@Klyptic]

If they are cleared then we know it's a full cheat. You don't get 115 charges, and obfuscate and slow down the investigation process every step of the way if you're innocent.

[@stluke324]

if you run out of room for asterisks, I have a big acres of land in Iowa you can write on..😂😂

[@NickQuinn1986]

amen

[@isaacnewton3514]

The proof is in the pudding, just look at the leaked emails. City’s argument wasn’t the emails were wrong, they said the emails were obtained illegally. Just read the court papers. Sam Lee - Yes the players are so good, but they were bought with illegal money, how can you separate the 2.

[@BOZ_11]

"illegal money" 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Clown

[@USCNE96]

Exactly! This team with this coach would never have been assembled without the illegal money

[@nigelduckworth4419]

Those emails would never have been allowed into evidence in a UK court. They have no provenance.

[@voidoflife7058]

@@nigelduckworth4419it doesn’t matter whether they’re allowed in court or not, they’re clearly damning evidence against city

[@valkyrst620]

@@nigelduckworth4419 Doesn't mean the content isn't true.

[@FaithandFun]

How many other teams can keep 100m players on the bench all season

[@Ananas-280]

Arsenal and Liverpool and united and chelsea and aston villa has spent more than city since 2019 And who's a 100M? Jack grealish only Kdb around 70M, haaland 65M, akanji 20M, ortega free, Alvarez for 20M, rodri for 70M, walker for 50M, gündogan for 27M, Bernardo silva 50M You see how the business is done? Compare city to rivals like rice for 130M and nunez for 100M, jesus and zinchenko for 50M and 45M that's already enough said

[@LeDardeursPalace]

@@Ananas-280 Yeah bro they spent a fucking billion before that. It gives you a decent headstart. Every other team has to catch up and more importantly each of these teams had the right to spent that money, they earned it. Unlike City who cheated to spent their billion.

[@archiedonnelly2948]

​​@@Ananas-280wages of haaland will be highest in the prem so don't say 70 mil. Plus you are giving euros for other teams and pounds for city what a joke

[@nellypringle2875]

People seem to have made their minds up about the charges already because they either: a) Want them to be true; b) Don’t want them to be true. My feeling is it’s always useful to see things in a wider context: the Premier League has had to flex its muscles in recent years because of the threat of an independent regulator and have maybe bitten off more than they can chew (mixed metaphor #1 - perhaps they were jaw muscles) with the 115 charges. Time will tell. Meanwhile, the charges against Everton & Forest were easier wins for them. I think there’s generally always an increasingly loud and unhappy clamour whenever you get serial winners in sport. I detested the Man Utd team that won 7 of the first 10 Premier League titles, did 3 doubles, a treble and won the league by 18 points in 2000. They were two points off winning the first 9 titles, for goodness sake. It was always a relief when they didn’t win it. Around the same time, I seem to remember being bored to death by Pete Sampras winning Wimbledon every year, Tiger Woods being unstoppable in the golf and Michael Schumacher winning F1 every year. Whoever is dominating is going to be hated by anyone wanting to see a change, even if they’re absolutely outstanding paragons of relentless consistency and class. In essence then, without the 115 charges, City would still be hated by rival fans or even neutrals wanting a change; with the charges, those same people can at least believe their hatred is righteous.😄 Personally, I’ve enjoyed the Guardiola period, particularly the 18/19 side that saw off Liverpool by 98 points to 97, did the domestic treble and were so unlucky to go out to Spurs in the CL. For me, that was the best City squad and the best football they played. I don’t know why I haven’t hated it it the same way I hated Alex Ferguson’s Man Utd (or was bored by Pete Sampras, Tiger Woods and Michael Schumacher). It might be that my own team, Newcastle United, have never had any beef with Guardiola (and he’s always been lovely about Bobby Robson), that Man City became the Prem team I enjoyed watching while Newcastle were absolutely woeful, or because I genuinely see this Guardiola period as a once-in-a-lifetime phenomenon to enjoy while it lasts. With the Champions League format changing and the threat of domestic fixtures being farmed out to lucrative markets abroad, I do feel that the game may be going in a direction I won’t care to follow in the not too distant future.

[@marlonblade007]

Grealish is basically forgotten.

[@piper3297]

This Sam Lee bloke is chatting shit.

[@cj2103m]

Yeah. I’m a Rangers fan with no interest in a team from England but he’s full of absolutely blinded nonsense.

[@Epic-Poetry]

Cry me a river that's bitter and salty.

[@minimead368]

@@Epic-Poetryis that all you have? Cry bitter tears. Your victories are hollow where no other person but city fans care about your achievements. You’re the Lance Armstrong of football. Great you win. You win every year. Congrats

[@ilaister9652]

Standard when you show up to work coked off your face. Watch him twitch.

[@DavidRegaL-lw5xz]

​@@minimead368you clearly care the most about City, your overhyped red cartel clubs are dead 😂

[@BigDome1]

If City had won the league by 10 or 15 points every season, it would be a different story. But they've won it by 1 or 2 points on numerous occasions now. Can you imagine how that feels for opposition players, managers and fans? Can you imagine how bittersweet Klopp's goodbye feels to him? Knowing that he could have had two or three more trophies, had City had maybe 100 charges instead of 115 (let alone 0.) This is not a small thing. This is the biggest threat to the integrity of our sport in our lifetimes, or perhaps ever. I am anxiously waiting for the day they get their due punishment, because what they've done is a disgrace. And yes, Pep is absolutely complicit. He knows full well what's happening and chose to chance it and stay there.

[@ajw9533]

It's cost Klopp his health too.

[@leonconnelly5303]

Artera driving himself insane trying to beat City

[@Epic-Poetry]

Boo hoo!

[@BigDome1]

@@Epic-Poetry very mature response

[@777SNYM]

Spot on, lad

[@danielb.6476]

The shady foundations built during the period under question has provided them the ability to attract players they otherwise wouldn’t have been able to. They’ve done this while also distorting the transfer market. All this “we stick to our evaluation of a player” BS can only be done after they’ve spent years paying exorbitant transfer fees and wages. And don’t get me started on the shady dealings at academy level. So, to separate the two would be to ignore the snowball effect of their actions taken during the period under investigation, and how that’s impacted other clubs and the various competitions they participate in.

[@therealking6202]

"Snowballed" is the perfect term.

[@BigPurp9]

You take the best senior staff from the best team in the world at the time Barcelona, you employ the best coaches, sign the best players, hire the best manager in the world and give him a blank chequebook. And then “allegedly” cheat on top of that and have the audacity to compare it to Chelsea/United. 2 clubs that have been run like a pub team for how many years. It’s like playing fifa with the sliders turned up

[@SparkyArbuckle]

Sam Lee's logical contortions are something to behold.

[@mbp912]

Not Sam Lee's finest hour. It's interesting that the argument from the blue corner has shifted to "We should still be celebrated even if we are guilty" as opposed to "We haven't been charged with anything yet, maybe we are innocent" - further strengthens the view that the charges are nailed on, and City know they can't "lawyer" their way out of it.

[@ymo6096]

No one cares about you celebrating them. Stop being f00lish. No City fans would celebrate other rivals team wining anything. Get a life..

[@walidhossainanik1896]

That City correspondent must be under the payroll of Mansur. His constant jabs without any substance are as disgraceful as City's cheating.

[@nigelduckworth4419]

City have not been found to be cheating. Fact

[@GraniteShaker]

​@@nigelduckworth4419 Not fact.

[@ymo6096]

He is not. You are the problem. You are so uneducated that you can't separate a charge from conviction. You are the one bothered not Pep/players and not the fans... They will be cleared 😊

[@BlackieFyre]

I mean 115FC is already a word starting to make rounds

[@ViVeriVniversvmVivusVici]

Just like Benzema 15

[@shanky1751]

on social media not real life

[@therealking6202]

​@@shanky1751Mcmanaman discussed it on ESPN FC, we're watching a webinar about it, and I talk about it with people "in real life" all the time. Sorry bud, it's real.

[@6ixTacos]

Say that 115 times for people to really care

[@nickmichal6652]

Sam Lee: "This [City's performance] isn't normal" as a kind of praise. Yes, it's not normal. Perhaps it's even so abnormal it was the result of financial doping that allowed the team to be formed in the first place? What a wild thought. . . . And then a couple minutes later he admits he wouldn't care even if they had been cheating earlier. Lmfao.

[@_bruce132]

Can Enron be seperated from their fraud?

[@user-jj3xn5ms2i]

How do you separate the team and the owners when the players wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the insane wages being paid that are a result of this alleged cheating. If found guilty then there’s no separation.

[@BigPurp9]

Doping aside Lance Armstrong was some bloke wasn’t he!

[@marlonblade007]

😂

[@moreish7193]

Strip them of their titles , not just relegation

[@tokinsloff312]

Strange how nobody talks about Pep's failed drug tests, Barcelona employing a known doping doctor in his time as manager there, the fact that 115 FC's players all rehab in Spain and EPL referees being paid handsomely to ref matches in the UAE. But I'm sure such fine journalists as Sam Lee have thoroughly investigated all this and there's nothing to worry about.

[@therealking6202]

Sam is trying so hard to not just start screaming. Like every other City fan he is so afraid of their dominance being questioned, and he can't accept that the club was built with corruption. No, you CANNOT separate the two. Yes the team is great blah blah blah, but would that team ever have been able to be built were it not for the financial (and regular) doping? No. Success breeds success. Players sign for winning teams, and if the origin of the winning was through corruption, then everything that comes after is questioned.

[@miseconor8104]

He’s a United fan for a start

[@ymo6096]

Relax. Not everyone is like you...😂

[@lukeherring3918]

How can you separate the achievement from the breaches? Yes pep is the best manager of all time. Yes individually they are world class players…But take away the ability to have a perfect 22+ man squad season after season, something that no other team can get legally, then they wouldn’t of achieved what they have. It is an unfair advantage no matter how you look at it. If they are not punished appropriately (what that should be is another convocation) then why bother playing? Who wants to play against a fixed deck?

[@isaacnewton3514]

Look at Sam Lee’s face as Oli is talking 😂 So defensive

[@raoulthimothy]

Honestly. How can a "journalist" be so obviously biased? I get having allegeniances, but he comes across as so bitter lol

[@nigelduckworth4419]

And so Sam should be because Kay is spreading misinformation. For a start, City were acquitted by CAS of financial wrongdoing but fined for non cooperation. Entirely separate things.

[@nickchivers9029]

​@nigelduckworth4419 no they weren't. They didn't rule on the financial for the period in question as under CAS the evidence was time barred. CAS in their ruling described the charges as entirely credible, but that they could not rule on it. They were not acquitted.

[@ryanrogers52]

"Can the people dominating in a competition be separated from the 115 breaches of the rules they have for said competition they are winning" Fucking no 🤣 I mean how is that even a question?

[@JD-mc3bl]

What a dumb question to ask? How can the charges, which was the very reason that allowed them to spend massive money, which in turn allowed them to bring in top quality players on massive wages, which allowed them to win a lot of titles, be separated from their success? 🙄🤦🏼😑

[@Hamza-yu1ur]

Without the financial cheating, city wouldn't of had the Aguero moment. And I think Liverpool would have a couple more premier league titles.

[@kartikjoshi3963]

An illegal construction is illegal and is always demolished by the government, doesnot matter how beautiful the building turn out to be. The construction itself was illegal.

[@FaithandFun]

juventus cheated for years and won the league repeatedly. "Let's separate juventus from cheating?" 😂

[@archiedonnelly2948]

Got stripped of titles too which is the most separated you can get

[@y2k42y2k42]

Juve case was different. They were found guilty of match fixing 😂 seriously you can't be that dumb can u??

[@mikewozere]

Sam Lee's hot take is the same kind of hot take I give the toilet every morning.

[@BeezSays]

“You can spend all the money but you may not win”. Gives you a better chance than everyone else though, doesn’t it? And that’s the definition of cheating. Been a subscriber to TA since its inception. This is comfortably the worst piece I’ve seen covered on any sport. Desperate reach after desperate reach

[@elk8872]

Next season shouldn't be played until city's case is settled. We need clarity!

[@HitchHitchHitch]

This was an outrageous episode, I cannot believe they had the gall to argue that it's still a fantastic achievement. We don't even know the extent of their cheating, only what has been leaked so far - who knows what other dodgy things they've been doing yet to catch up with them

[@nigelduckworth4419]

Precisely. None of us knows anything

[@kitlow2970]

Why are the players at the club? Because of the finances. The team and the club are inseparable. The team is fantastic on sporting merit but they do not exist in a bubble. They compete in a sporting competition where everyone has to act within the same rules financially and City have possibly broken those rules to enable them to build a team that is so dominant.

[@stu8758]

No, without the alleged breaches you potentiallly don''t have that team they eventually built, trying to separate the team & club is a pitiful argument when they're intertwined, t's the snowball effect. FFP is a shambles, we all know that, but you can't just dismiss the 115 charges because FFP is a mess. Rules are rules no matter how bad said rules are. Saved you 45 minutes of aids

[@ViVeriVniversvmVivusVici]

Oil Kay is more like it

[@markthompson1400]

Sam lee defensiveness about man city is becoming really boring... Yes the team is great, and the manager is amazing. But they've probably assembled a world beating squad through unfair financial means - of course this will have affected their performance.

[@cherylparker1448]

So defending City is "boring", but the constant bleeting of sheep calling for tarring and feathering without the case even starting in court isn't? The players still have to play, whether they cost 100 million or50 million. And Pep has improved many, not just bought all the best. The bug-eyed frothing at the mouth will never stop, no matter what happens. Minds are made up. Yet the stoking of all the anger gets clicks.

[@markthompson1400]

I agree pep has done an amazing job- that is undeniable. It's really sad, because I love watching them play- beautiful, amazing, breathtaking. But the squad (cleverly assembled I agree) was "probably" assembled with financial impropriety. 115 charges! 5 would be bad, 10 is crazy, 50 is impossible - but 115 serious charges casts a huge shadow over their accomplishments

[@cherylparker1448]

@@markthompson1400 "probably". add "it's obvious" and "everyone knows" and there's your case!

[@ymo6096]

​@@cherylparker1448 I can't stand this M0rons. Sam shouldn't defend but others can say City did something wrong without an outcome..

[@noobmixups9102]

Lance Armstrong FC

[@otto_jk]

At least Lance was battling against other doping users, city's fighting mostly against clubs who are completely clean

[@vincentx2850]

TBF although many club owners and presidents are shady figures in their own right, some seems to care too little about their club or football in general to even consider financial doping in the first place

[@PapaVorPutin]

In short, NO. Clearly, City wouldn't be dominating the PL without the 115. They would not have been able to court Pep, or half their All-Star players. They were not found not guilty. There were found guilty of cheating, paying coaches and players, fake sponsorship deals, and then obstructing the investigation. They only managed to wiggle free on "this happened to long ago", which is justice denied. Is Pep a great coach, sure. Do City have a ton of great players, sure. But, they wouldn't be where they are without the 115 charges and cheating. They'd be in the mix but, more than likely they'd be a mid-table outfit like they were for their entire history.

[@gwheregwhizz]

What's changed since a Southgate managed Middlesbrough managed to stick 8 past them?

[@nigelduckworth4419]

Last match of the season when they knew Eriksson was leaving and they didn't want him to.

[@sunnymattu1736]

Lost interest in a non bias chat once Sam starting chatting rubbish

[@alexbrown975]

Watching Citeh feels like playing a video game with cheats enabled. Sure it looks great, you can break records but deep down there's no sense of achievement.

[@panchonacho5855]

That’s what happens with Guardiola everywhere he coached… he is just too good, there will be a time when everybody will say premier league it’s a farmers league and it’s easy to win because he won’t stop winning

[@alexbrown975]

@@panchonacho5855 it already feels like a farmers league. Citeh are the PSG of English football. Hopefully Guardiola goes there.

[@G00N3R7883]

No, you can't seperate it. Cheating off the pitch by breaking financial fair play rules directly relates to their performances on the pitch. If they were playing by the same rules as everybody else, they wouldn't have been able to afford to pay the transfer fees and the wages for all of these players. Some of them, yes. But not all of them. Its their squad depth which means they never have an off day and hardly ever drop points. And that's why they've won all these trophies. 115 charges. Its a massive level of cheating so it deserves a massive punishment. Strip them of their trophies (I don't care about awarding them to 2nd place teams, cup final losers, etc, because we can't celebrate being given something years later) and relegate them to the bottom division like Juventus and Rangers.

[@cobbysparks9891]

The comments section should have been disabled after 115 comments.

[@FaithandFun]

City have the team because they have cheated. The players wouldn't be there if they weren't getting paid 😂

[@punit160492]

Sam is right to an extent.. 11 players have achieved brilliance on the field..but Cheating puts them in a place to hire and keep hold of Pep and those amazing players..if they hadnt commited financial doping.. they might have not had the capability to buy a defender every window.. change goal keepers in subsequent windows..which would have led them to possibly underperform and increase pressure on pep and him leaving as he has done because of it in all his previous clubs... To diminish/undermine that aspect is ludicrous..

[@danogunner]

If they are found guilty, titles HAVE to be taken away. Given the 2022/2023 title was won by them despite the charges - that title has to go to arsenal because city should have been docked points and weren’t

[@iron6015]

Then you're also forgetting that Liverpool would've won the 18/19 title and the 21/22 title.

[@danogunner]

@@iron6015 but they were charged in 2022/2023 - which is when the punishment would have been given had they not denied the charges….

[@ymo6096]

Relax people. Don't worry, the will collect the trophies and give them to your shit clubs..

[@michaellord2844]

These writers seem to fail to appreciate the depth of resources (players) that Pep has to pick from wouldn't be the same if they hadn't spent in 'an accelerated manner', i'm being kind here. Without the depth and quality of squad they do NOT win what they have won. Like Klopp the relentless of Pep and what he can get out of his players is to be admired, but without the money he wouldn't have the dressing he has... So No you cant separate the charges from the success.

[@gentleken7864]

No. And while the Premier League allows City to continues to win stuff, all the while charging teams quickly like Everton and Forest, make a whole farce of the Premier League and its two-tier system.

[@christophersmith3494]

If they got point deductions like Everton and forests they wouldn't have got 4 would they. This is why nobody cares what they've achieved. Those charges will always be over them.

[@therealking6202]

Point deductions, and on field help from the refs. God they get EVERY call to go their way it's ridiculous. 2 points. If Doku's kick on Macallister goes the other way, we're looking at different champions this year. And that's just one of many.

[@TheNightMammoth]

Of course Pep and the players are not to blame for these charges, but they are still fundementally the product of the Manchester City sportswashing project. Assembling a team of this quality, with no expense spared, was the whole point. And if they did it whilst cheating then it calls into question the legitimacy of the whole thing. It doesn't mean Pep isn't a great coach or that KDB isn't a great player, but it would suggest that they might not be at City at all otherwise.

[@Amishbr]

Their dominance on the pitch is literally enabled by their 115 charges so no you can’t separate the two.

[@Tunafishsauce999]

I don’t think you can separate the teams performance year on year with the charges of financial ‘irregularities’ because these irregularities have enabled the squad to rotate world class players without dropping performance. This not only guards the squad against potential drops in performance due to injuries that are expected for all the other squads who compete fairly, but it helps the players not to gain the same mental fatigue season on season that so many previously winners would have felt being from smaller groups of world class players within those squads. I’ll really disappointed that you don’t seem to be emphasising these obvious links.

[@paulf6973]

The league is far more competitive now, compared to that monopoly in the 90s when Leeds, Newcastle and Blackburn were winners/contenders.

[@brianlynch2260]

Sam Lees answer to the question of "are city boring" is "the title races are good". Seriously?

[@mikewicks6309]

If the club are paying managers and players secretly via convoluted third party arrangements how can you not conflate the team with the allegations?

[@gregbeales7945]

Guys these are rule breaches that have given the club a massive sporting advantage. It’s that simple. That’s why if proven they will end up with a massive sporting sanction. You are talking about the club cheating but not the team as if the team haven’t got an absolutely huge sporting advantage from their rule breaches.

[@jonlee308]

Journalists need to be very careful in ignoring or brushing under the carpet the disrespect of fair play or sporting regulations because of a worship for what they see on the pitch. This results reckless owners and club executives being emboldened to repeat this behaviour and put at risk the future of the game. Do not forget that the actions of the Man City executive have robbed their own manager and players of achievements that don’t have an asterisk attached and the football watching public of witnessing these talents performing on an even playing field free from the unfair assistance they didn’t need to excel in the first place.

[@harryeast95]

You can say that Guardiola is the only one who could have done this (because, frankly, I think that's true) but you can't separate the club and the team in the fashion these guests suggest... the team only exists because of what the club's done. And the club is only in the position it is now because of what it did in the first half of the takeover. Imagine if you had an age restricted competition, say, under eighteens, and a team fielded a bunch of baby faced 23 year olds and go 37-1-0. Is that the best team under eighteen team in the world? No, of course not, because it's not an under eighteen team. It has no-one in it that's actually under eighteen. This is the situation Manchester City find themselves in. A team that's put together against the rules can have the highest quality game in the competition but it's not the best team because the team couldn't exist if the rules were being followed. This, I think, is ultimately Guardiola's motivation... he's in a position where he can try and solve the sport. I think, based on this season, that he might be think that he's found the limitations of control. If you have two teams doing that basically equally well, then the league will be resolved by un-repeatable freak deflections. If Arsenal hadn't lost their way against Fulham's ten men, then Arsenal would have won the league because of such a deflection. I have to imagine that Guardiola's thinking "Well, Arsenal will be better at controlling games next season, so I can (a) hope that we remain better at control than they are, (b) accept that the league is going to be won by dumb luck or (c) find a strategy that's better than control". I think he'll go for (c) and I think trying to figure out what (c) is, is his motivation. I think he'll leave when he can't think of the better idea.

[@vincegormley]

Absolutely not

[@ahmonafenegus7183]

It’s kind of hard to understand these guys talk with peps shaft shoved all the way down their throats for 45 mins.. XD

[@benainger9947]

You have to applaud the mental gymnastics required to claim that City's advantage hasn't been that large and actually, having that much money to spend, is a disadvantage

[@DeeClarke-lg1hp]

They're guilty and they know it. Deflection.

[@thomasperkins8228]

They even started paying the refs just to be sure

[@ilaister9652]

'If City get relegated then fine' 'I don't believe that will happen' - this is the problem the rest of the league has with sky blues.

[@kevinessington8220]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that it is the unfairly assembled club wealth PLUS Pep's genius that has created this situation? Both conditions were necessary. So, YES, bravo Pep, you are the best manager ever and you changed the league. AND, without the near endless resources, there is no way Pep has 24 top-shelf players in the squad. Without his dubiously assembled talent he can't rotate all season unlike the way he does, and he would have to make do as other managers and lean on the same 14-15 players for 38 games.

[@SamuelFanara]

“why didn’t they dominate from the beginning?” well because they were taking a mid table team to a title challenging one. Guardiola took a title challenging team to a consistently title winning team. He wouldn’t have been there in the first place nor been able to get them to where they are now without the initial investment and alleged financial doping. This looks terrible for the Premier League and I seriously doubt they would publicly act against their self interest without a high degree of certainty that City seriously breached the rules.

[@makingmiracleshappen]

since citys cheating...teams have been robbed of Inter Milan 1x UCL Man Utd 3x PL, 1x FA Cup, Liverpool 3x PL, 1x League cup Arsenal 2x PL, 1x league cup Stoke city, Watford 1x FA Cup each Sunderland, Chelsea, Aston Villa, Spurs 1x league cup each...plus community shields, Club WC, UEFA super cup, all the teams that missed out on UCL/UEL/UECL qualification, all the $$$ teams have lost out on, Man utd 3 consecutive PL record.... Well u can see why everyone is PISSED!!! and have every right to be

[@matheus.bueno47]

The only team that comes to the level of spending City had was Chelsea over a 20 year period, and the latter had success domestic and abroad with multiple coaches. It is ludicrous to minimize the advantage City has over everybody else because of their level spending. Terrible podcast.

[@asimjanjua9495]

Absolutely disgraceful and naive reporting from The Athletic, namely Sam Lee. I do agree that Pep is a genius and machine, only he could do 4 in a row. And Yes, the charges are not doping related. But it does not take a rocket scientist to work out that at the elite level it’s 1% margins that make a difference. City’s 115 charges relate to financial advantages. That could mean extra investment in the squad, training and medical facilities which translates to better recovery for players, the ability to have 6 world class players on the bench that allows them to continuously rotate. Who’s to say the extra investment in world class facilities and medical team meant De Bryne was able to return back from injury 3 weeks earlier… It’s 1% margins, and when you are winning a league by a point or two, it’s these margins that matter.

[@redwolf3416]

"it's the club being charged, not the team" is just a terrible argument in defense of Man City. If Everton and Forest can be docked points for their financial wrongs, it is clear financial duping and illegalities enhance and affect the *team*.

[@isaacnewton3514]

I hate that one of the greatest managers of all time went to Man City and has potentially risked tarnishing his legacy for the rest of his career if City are found guilty.

[@bj11755]

Super fascinating conversation purely to witness how someone can argue for something so blatantly corrupt. You can categorically go through each of Sam’s/city defenders argument’s one by one so easily. “Other clubs spend money” - basically saying that cheating should be accepted if you cheat smarter than other teams. “The team is so great, why take away from them with all these accusations” - again saying if you cheat well enough we should just ignore it because you cheated so well that you deserve praise. “City are one of the biggest earning clubs in the world” - yes, because they cheated to earn they way here. So now that they can legitimately spend money we should ignor how they cheated to get here. “Other fans just don’t want to give credit because city don’t have the history” - yes, it feels fake, it feels wrong and you can’t ask people to now feel the way they do about it. “Nothings been proven yet” - city themselves won the UEFA case not by arguing the truth of the emails but there age, additionally are we just going to assume that ALL the charges are false. So your telling me that not 1 not 10 not even 50 of these charges are wrong but all 115? Sure…

[@voidoflife7058]

This is so ridiculous lol what they did *for an entire decade* was the financial equivalent of pumping your veins full of hgh. Trying to be “balanced” on this as to not offend city fans is bullshit Edit: lmfao is this Sam Lee guys argument that city’s financial doping wasn’t even a big deal because the players they bought were able to get such high wages that they would therefore get complacent which would allow other teams to compete? This is insane lmao get this guy off the show forever

[@Marvin-yk6tk]

Only 10 mins into this pod, and Oli has gotten this main question woefully wrong. Yes, Pep has built an amazing team, but if the club has commited these 115 charges, the question is, could Pep had built this side if the club had stayed within regulation. If its a no, how can you seperate the two. Quite simple, feel like there is an agenda going on here?

[@Javo_AV]

In short, no. In long... Yes, you can seperate the two and appreciate how good they are from a pure football players on a pitch / competitive aspect for a conversation/debate. I also agree and think if Pep leaves, City drops off, and if there is another contender like Klopp's Liverpool and now Arteta's Arsenal, City probably won't win multiple titles in a row! I think Pep is the best. But you simply cannot seperate the two when talking about Man City the Club, the last 10 plus years, Pep, the players, & the Premier League as a whole. For a start, City probably wouldn't have been able to get Guardiola! Lol. And no, it isn't just the simplistic dumb thinking that people are "haters". Years of breaking financial rules the rest of the league has abided by. 115 charges. It should not be allowed to be dragged out. City have built a young worldwide fanbase from winning trophies and signing big name players - it's still very far off from clubs like Real/Barca/ManU/Liverpool etc... but it's significantly bigger than what they had before. And they'd break the rules again happily, if it meant they lost the titles and got relegated because they now have a bigger fanbase to make money in future & to be more financially competitive. Their financial doping and cheating for years has had unknown effects on other teams from taking their players, to denying them the opportunity to qualify for europe, to winning titles/trophies, & even have had affects on relegations.

[@montanaprime]

This issue is a crazy thing. What are city trying to achieve? You care what people think and you don’t care what people think!!!!! Pick a struggle mate.

[@ymo6096]

Because they want to be successful. Deal with your failures 🤡

[@uchihasufi]

While there is no question about Peps ability as a coach and a genius manager, the success of City is built on the financial might of the Etihad group. This also came in a period of lax financial regulations. The ambition of City's owners was only matched by the desire of Pep to win making it a perfect combination. But if there was any wrongdoings on the part of the owners, it should not be washed away by the brilliance of Pep. For me, his Barcelona team will always be a better argument for his abilities than this City team

[@nickronin]

Where did the money to hire Pep come from? Sam talks about the consistency he has brought to them, with them being up and down before him, but would they have been able to afford him without their dirty money?

[@shaboogen]

What utterly ridiculous arguments. "The players and the manager didn't cheat" ignores that the team has been put together illegally AND ignores that the group of players they have could have gone to other places and equalised the talent pool theoretically having an effect on every other result in the league during that time. Why isn't it like the Lance Armstrong results? He still had to win the races, by your own logic having the advantage doesn't guarantee the win so it's exactly the same. Actually dumbfounded someone would attempt to make this case.

[@devlifedotnet]

if the club wanted to validate their footballing achievements they'd just provide the right information to the investigating body.

[@ToddParker]

You cannot objectively separate the play on the field from 115. You cannot separate the players or pep from the club, no, you cannot do that - they are the product of 115. Until the league throws the book at them the competition is false. I do not care how good they are. Almost anyone who cheats without being caught will get good at something. Cheaters prosper until they get thrown in jail. The argument that it is Pep very much misses the point.

[@ymo6096]

The law! 🤡🤡🤡

[@monkeydben7360]

I'd like to see The Athletic FC Podcast do a pod on MIchael Oliver and his VAR team referreeing in the ADNOC Pro League. Especially, considering Man City's owners strong connection with ADNOC Pro League. These guys should read or watch the Monopoly Experiment by Paul Piff. Also, no one is arguing that Pep is a great coach. Oli said you can separate the off the pitch with on the pitch and Sam stating about the money making players complacent can both be easily disputed. On the first point, everyone - including at The Athletic - states that the reason Chelsea did well before was because of Abramovich and are doing badly now because of Todd Boehly. Same with the Glazers. As for money making players complacent is a ridiculous argument. One stat that has been a good predictor of a team winning a league has been wages and not transfer fees. Without the financial doping, Man City wouldn't have been able to keep or attract the best players. On that point, without the financial doping Guardiola wouldn't have been able to rebuild his team as quickly as he has over the years. Finally, they said it themselves in this podcast, the big money doesn't mean Man City will win the league, but it sure does give them a huge advantage.

[@dlaldlaldlanutsntnstn1418]

City fans like Sam Lee seem to be in complete denial. He said himself "You can't replicate it in normal circumstances" yes because they cheated to get those players, other teams can't do what they did without cheating

[@munnerley]

It's dangerous to seperste them, but i also agree only Pep could have forged this incredbile winning streak. But City have have used their illegal resources to buy the best manager, the best facilities and best players, in the world. How do you selerate that from their footballing brilliance if it is the reason behind all this success?

[@Hogiebear7]

From a sporting sense, it is an absolutely incredible achievement (coming from a depressed United fan 😂). But these players were ultimately gotten through illegal means. Other teams would be so much stronger if they just disregarded the rules and used dodgy methods to get more players in. From a United standpoint, we could have gotten in Kane, Kim and De Jong if we didn't need to worry about PSR

[@leolovetoparty]

Spoiler alert! Short answer is "no". Nobody cares that they keep winning. Moreover, it's turning people off from the Prem. And I support the team that's prevented them winning 7 in a row...

[@ymo6096]

That is not true. You are turned off because you and your team are losers🤡

[@dipankardebnath2975]

How you can judge a current team has nothing to do with their 115 charges when we all know that their building foundations were done with these cheatings and it does effect everything because foundations in any sector is very important for future....

[@philjohnson3829]

I think 115 relates to the number of months before they are charged

[@azmedz86]

If you cannot see a dent in city's achievements because of financial doping, then you are not a sports fan.

[@nickswargaminghistory4637]

This is torture to listen to. It's like everyone has forgotten how to talk and is just spluttering out broken sentences. The answer is no, you can't separate the two. Man City gained an unfair advantage by breaking financial rules. They've continuously delayed and have been uncooperative throughout the investigation. Strip all titles and cups, and throw them out of the football league. Tell the players to throw their medals in the bin whilst they're at it.

[@101geo]

Of course the two are connected! I remember the EFL final against Spurs a few years ago, City had a bench that cost them £400,000,000! That's without the cost of the first choice eleven. How can you not connect them? Maybe Pep got a little more out of those players than another good manager could but you could say if he didn't have that sort of success he would be a complete failure.

[@ymo6096]

City has spend less than United,Chelsea and Arsenal. 🤡🤡🤡

[@atifsiddiqui6107]

First, nice one 😊

[@eduardosnow7374]

LoL as an American looking in its hilarious because it seems like the system is set up that no team can spend near United so no team can conceivable rise to this level.

[@ymo6096]

That is what it is. But the M0rons are in denial and they pretend to not understand it.😂

[@moodymanc63]

Cheats plain and simple .

[@ymo6096]

🤡🤡

[@harrysardanis4963]

Have can you not conflate the club and the team ? If you have two top class players in each position, and can afford that but cheating the system, then the "team" by definition is not real.

[@freelancedesignzja]

the fact that oli kay fumbling around the topic makes it a yes.. if ur foundations was built by fraud it does not matter if it happened 50 years ago... wat they did put them in a position to be successful in the future

[@dresantorini1770]

4 in a row never been done before same as 115 never been seen before, why have city been throwing injunctions in for 4 years if innocent

[@aakarmamtora3470]

I think the idea that everyone just doesn't like city because of how good they are or because they're boring is just invalid. No most people don't like them because of the potential cheating which has enabled them to performa at these levels.

[@kefeaman501]

You guys miss the point (probably on purpose) They don’t get this amazing manager or players without all the cheating before hand This video is so one eyed,I’m out after 15 mins

[@langzhi1873]

No unless they’re cleared of the charges

[@ifactmachine]

Even then, it has to be spelled out very clearly why they were cleared. People would look at the "lawyer-speak" and still dismiss it

[@BigPurp9]

Even then, how can we take it at face value when the British Government have admitted talking to the UAE govt about the charges and refused to disclose what was said…

[@therealking6202]

Even if they're cleared they have stained the game. This is just like the steroid era in MLB. This is why Barry Bonds has an asterisk next to his record. Even if they are "legally cleared," no fans will accept it. They are in a truly lose-lose situation, and I'm here for every second of it. We ALL can't wait until they're brought down. And if the PL doesn't take them down, they're risking the validity of the ENTIRE league. IMO, the legal outcome doesn't even matter anymore. The PL must punish them severely, or every other team in the league could... And should... boycott.

[@StrikeBolteafc]

@@therealking6202the prem should punish the severely, even if they are innocent? You are assuming they are guilty which the prem can not automatically assume, they have to go through the court proceedings

[@therealking6202]

@@StrikeBolteafc That's why I said they're in a lose lose situation. They dragged their feet for far too long. It's the PLs own fault. They now must take action, especially after punishing Everton and NF, yet City's won 2 titles since the charges have been announced. Guilt doesn't even matter anymore. It's the appearance of guilt. And if they're cleared, we're all going to think the Sheik paid them off, too.

[@endatreanor5263]

8:15 Sam Lee: Why can't we just cheat and get away with it. 9:30 Sam Lee: It's not's the same thing as Lance Armstrong or ben Johnson and proceeds not to explain why it's different because he can't. 15:15: Clearly it can put them in this position because it put them in a position to hire Guardiola and they just did it, what else did it, Liam Gallagher? 16:45 Mark Critchley laughing at Sam Lee's nonsense for five minutes just points out that what he said is nonsense. 20:48 This is going to sound like me being blinkered, no it's absolute nonsense. If we hadn't cheated then Liverpool would have won the league very easily, so what it's good that they cheated?? And Arsenal had to spend years outside the top four in order to build their squad to be able to compete not just grab some more dodgy money. 22:55 No it's not about City when Newcastle do the same thing in a few years people will be pissed about that too.