Gandalf vs. the Balrog: Did They Know Each Other? | Lord of the Rings Lore

[@TheBrokenSword]

Is there a more epic confrontation between two characters? What do you think?

[@dv6342]

Tulkas and Melkor the first time, not the one to come.

[@eugenebelford9087]

Fingolfin vs Morgoth? Luthien vs Morgoth? (as a battle of will/ magic) Earendil vs Ancalagon? Ungoliant vs Melkor/ Morgoth? ... and ofc: Optimus Prime vs Megatron as well as Luke vs Vader ("I'm your father!" is just epic) 😁

[@noelstarchild]

Galadriel and Sauron...but I don't remember reading it in the Hobbit....?

[@j-mc5201]

The Tolkien Fandom Vs Amazon. 😂 We are Sauron Amazon is Gollum.

[@noelstarchild]

VHS v Betamax?

[@antonioortiz4544]

Before the Durin's Bane had been corrupted by Morgoth perhaps he ran into Gandalf at a party or something. Maybe they played football and Durin's Bane was not a good quarterback and Gandalf said "You cannot pass!" Who knows?

[@enigma9971]

The Balrogs allied themselves with Melkor during the song of creation. Come on now

[@jacobspencer5295]

Epic comment bro! Gandalf puts him on third string and the rivalry begins

[@DamonNomad82]

That makes sense...in the same way Gandalf telling the rest of the Fellowship "Fly, you fools!" meaning that he was telling them to use the Eagles as a mode of transportation to Mordor makes sense!

[@Zaznin]

The two of them were in the same choir as kids.

[@GRWelsh7]

That's the best answer in this comments section.

[@AGS363]

The lore says so!

[@seraphol]

I see what you did there.

[@manueloceguerra7775]

yaaaaasssss

[@alexiachimciuc3199]

🎶Eruu...Eeeru🎶 ...Melkor: hey kid come here I got some candy for you 😈💀

[@RevanMartinez]

Durins bane when Gandalf showed up "Finally a worthy opponent! Our battle will be legendary!"

[@festalongreyhawkshorts4sho645]

I know! Damn thing was never challenged since creation! Imagine, there were a dozen or so of these! Fallen Valinor!

[@zStC1]

I don't remember him speaking in the movies 😂

[@ilkvomit88]

Such a corny ass comment

[@parkeaudio1338]

That was a worthy foe! Can we fight more like that?

[@RevanMartinez]

@@zStC1 kzbin.info/www/bejne/iGeUYYukibuqf9Esi=_6k87APqq6T7K76y

[@Shibbymatt]

It's like they both worked in different departments in a large company. Maybe they passed each other in the corridors during the Ainulindalë and shared an awkward head nod or smile but they didn't know each other personally.

[@legionarybooks13]

"Wait, weren't you Steve from Floor 7?" 😁

[@Mallarkey]

Corridors! In the Great Void?

[@EeanWooo-to9kd]

I think that while gandalf, who couldn't remember much of his time as Olorin, clearly had great knowledge of the balrog and its powers, the balrog had been lying low under a mountain for thousands of years and while aware of other Maiar from way back probably didnt know anything about the istari arriving and would've probably been really surprised when gandalf revealed himself in the bridge

[@charliecochran3035]

Edited... All of what I said was covered by the video after I typed it. Seems I'll never learn.

[@dickbakker1035]

​@@charliecochran3035 it does not bother me....😊

[@panhandlersparadise1733]

This is total fan fiction with no canon to suggest it's what Tolkien had in mind, but I tend to think Durin's Bane was in touch with Sauron, perhaps even had one of the Palantiri that was unaccounted for, so he wouldn't have been completely "in the dark" (pun intended, see what I did there?) about the outside world. If they were in communication, it raises another question of who was working for whom, or who would have been in charge or been second in command had Sauron's world domination plans not been foiled. Side Note: Although the two aren't always compatible, I tend to think of the Balrog's layer in the depths of Moria as the entrance to what is called "The Underdark" in D&D. That would also give him access to the Abyss and the Shadowfell, which could make the plan that Durin's Bane would rule those places while Sauron would have ruled the outer crust of the Prime Material Plane, had they succeeded. And by all means, I would love it if someone knows my theories are wrong and can point out canonical lore which debunks the way I visualize these topics. To date, although some people disagree with my views, nobody has been able to prove them wrong. it doesn't have to be an argument, we're all free enjoy the story as we each see fit!

[@manhuawang11]

Pretty tough to find Tolkien writings saying d&d isn't part of his world considering he wrote most of it decades before Gygax published the original edition. Tolkien almost certainly also never wrote anything saying that the balrog didn't have a palantir, but that doesn't mean in any way he had it in mind. He never said the watcher in the water didn't have on either, but that doesn't make it true. I mean, it's cool to enjoy headcanon but there's no reason to think Elrond has a palantir in a kitchen cupboard just because Tolkien didn't say he didn't. Edit: ... Something about proving a negative.

[@maximus3160]

@@panhandlersparadise1733 so totally fan fiction that Sauron and the Balrog were in communication?

[@allenjackson8632]

I always presumed that they each recognised each others nature, as well as Gandalf having some idea what a Balrog is considering where he comes from

[@funkfamily4165]

Gandalf clearly knew the history of the Balrogs by his referring to _Udun_ , or Utumno.

[@Benjamini999]

A sibling rivalry taken to another level

[@makeitbetter.1402]

I want to say thank you for using real art from artist and crediting them every time you show it. As an artist that often goes uncredited, this means a lot. ❤️

[@Amoschp524]

"You Shall not Pass" is Gandalf's version of "I have the High Ground."

[@tokivikerness8863]

I don't see it. I have the high ground makes no sense.

[@garysanders8350]

Lord of the rings came first

[@jeffdingle9677]

They might not have known each other right back when Melkor (Morgoth) started to recruit Maiar to his cause, but they may have recognised each others "real" or true-forms and their presence might have perturbed them. The Balrog might have even felt that the encounter was like nothing it had faced for many an Age, meaning that it had to be extra careful as it was now facing a worthy adversary (another Maia possibly)...

[@JimRodgers]

I've always thought that the presence of The Ring and Gandalf in Moria was what drew the Balrog out - it sensed their power.

[@jrpipik]

Gandalf recognizes the Balrog as a Balrog, but there's nothing to suggest he knows this one personally -- if he did he wouldn't say "a" Balrog, but call it by name. The Balrog probably doesn't recognize Gandalf, who is in the guise of an old man, which is why Gandalf tells him who he is. Also, it's interesting to note that Tolkien doesn't say the Balrog is a giant figure, but that it is in the shape of a man and is surrounded by a shadow that stretches across the cavern like vast wings. OTOH the enormous Balrog in the movie is awesome.

[@charliecochran3035]

They wouldnt have to know much about each other to recognize each other's nature and powers. Left out if the discussion was Gandalf describing his first encounter with the balrog. After they fled the chamber they all ran down some stairs but Gandalf stayed behind to hold the door. He described something taking hold of the door and that he tried too powerful of a spell which caused the door to burst. It was clear that at that point he still didn't know what the being was. He caught on when everyone saw it at the bridge.

[@roboslug7582]

There's actually a bit of a backstory here. Durin's Bane was actually named Lewis, and he and Olorin actually went to Valinor High School together (Go Fighting Ainur!) and graduated in the same class, VHS Class of YT 937. Back then, Olorin (he went by Ollie in high school) and Lewis were actually good friends, but as it turns out, Ollie had a sister, Jill, who was a couple years younger, super hot, and a bit of a skank. So one day, Lewis and Jill hooked up, and Ollie was super pissed about it. As soon as Lewis realized that Ollie had found out, he freaked out and decided to run away to Middle Earth with Jill, and since this was his first time living away from home, he ended up taking the first job he could get--smiting Morgoth's enemies with fire. It paid pretty well, but it took him away from Jill quite a bit, and before long, her skankiness just couldn't hold out any longer and she ended up running away with a hot elf guy named Pete, who played baseball and had a horse ranch. After that, Lewis became super depressed and just crawled under the mountain and drank himself to sleep. Imagine his surprise when he came face to face with Ollie after all those years. I mean, I wasn't personally there to witness how it all went down, but I'm betting that Ollie was actually the one who started the fight. Lewis was probably just trying to apologize. Sadly, I think Tolkien was kind of prejudiced against Balrogs, so he tried to make Gandalf the good guy, but those of us who knew them back in high school know better.

[@majornugzzz5424]

Can I have whatever you smoked? I'm not insulting you or what I've read. Thanks for the laugh!😂

[@patrickspalding8045]

That’s just awesome

[@joshdixon9369]

Brilliant!!

[@pedrovargas2181]

This funny nonsense fanfic >>>>>>> anything Amazon can pull off their hats 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@tiyanivincentmahlaule1331]

This is hilarious as F 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@enigma9971]

I think the Balrog was cowering from Sauron and the Istari. He neither wanted to be subservient or be destroyed, so he hid in Moria until the Dwarves finally roused him.

[@micklumsden3956]

Rather like Gollum taking the ring deep under the Misty Mountains

[@vortex_1336]

Actually he was hiding from judgement. Same as Sauron did when Morgoth fell. His lieutenants were offered a chance to surrender and face punishment. They fled instead.

[@12bigredd]

yes the fall of Gondalin... why do you think it was fated for Gandalf to gain the sword he did...... Glamdring Turgon's blade.... wraught for just a task as smiting Balrogs :)

[@sharpw9761]

Better help is scam and sells your info

[@davidponseigo8811]

You are very correct. I have known multiple people who it happened to.

[@charlieel36]

Ur prolly rite but KZbinrs gotta make bread somehow 🤷

[@KimP0612]

Who doesn’t sell your info?

[@markharrison6498]

Yeah, they also treat and pay their worker abysmally.

[@markharrison6498]

@@KimP0612lots of health providers don’t

[@TheMasonK]

I do wonder what it would’ve been like for Frodo and Bilbo to meet Gandalf as Olaren when they reached Valinor. I have to imagine Gandalf would’ve “shed his cloak” the moment they reached Aman.

[@jacobspencer5295]

"Frodo, hold my cloak and watch this!"

[@therealmatthewsmith]

I think Gandalf liked being in that form. I think he said it was his favorite name somewhere?

[@MohseenLala]

You know what I wonder about, if galadriel knew melkor. She must've passed him by in valinor, passed him butter over breakfast, shared a festival in his attendance.

[@stoner36s]

she did. My favorite two characters, Galadriel and Melkor, please pass the butter!(Sheldon and Amy). Favorite scene of all time, "She gave me three" Still tear up to this day. F Feaonor and The Oath!

[@enigma9971]

Hahaha, but no. Melkor was never among the Valar except during the song of creation where he was defiant and separated himself from them

[@Mallarkey]

​@@enigma9971yes he was. After his first defeat and imprisonment in the Halls of Mandos he was pardoned by Manwë and began to live among the Valar again in Vamimar, corrupting some of the Noldor (eg teaching them about weapons) then courting Ungoliant, and we all know what happened next...

[@alexanderren1097]

@@Mallarkey*Ungoliant Not Shelob

[@Mallarkey]

@@alexanderren1097 quite right. Don't know why I typed that 😆 but duly edited. Thanks.

[@xrdx9930]

I thought Gandalf only had very limited memory of his Maia form. Olorin might know the Balrog but that would not necessarily mean Gandalf would. Thanks for the interesting vid!

[@stewartdixon7161]

No, Gandalf had to introduce himself, I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.

[@deborahbarbour2241]

Good point. I don't think they knew each other personally, but knew about each other's "kind."

[@philkugler2429]

I always thought of it as trash talking more than an introduction. But that's an interesting take on it, I like it.

[@therealmatthewsmith]

He just did not recognize his human body that he had taken on thousands of years after the Ainulindalë.

[@deborahbarbour2241]

Very interesting point! 😊

[@skyknight6467]

Imagine with me for a moment. A community of a few hundred or perhaps a few thousand individuals, not just living together but creating an entire universe as a group. Working together for not just a few decades like humans but for untold Eons. Then imagine a dark force polluting and corrupting a large portion of those communal members. This would be a long and slow process where the dark force would do things like point out favoritism and slights. Then imagine that ancient small community being torn apart violently. Both sides would know the names of all the others of the other side. The universe is vast but working together to create and or corrupt it would require a lot of interactions between it's members. It's highly unlikely that the two of them hadn't at least meet each other in passing. Perhaps there was even a meet and great at the begging before they started to build all of creation. I doubt Eru Ilúvatar created everyone and then just went right to work. Would he have not introduced himself? Would they all have not introduced themselves to each other? I believe they would not have recognized each other in those forms but they would have know each other in their true forms at least in passing.

[@AndyOdin22]

This video needs a polish regarding the lore. Perhaps it's just the way you have worded it, however you draw implications that are incorrect lore-wise. For example, "Let's uncover the deep history of Gandalf and the Balrog, and their origins in the timeless lands of Valinor." This statement implies that the they originated in Valinor something that is incorrect. Whereas, although Gandalf indeed dwelt there for a time the Balrog almost certainly never sat foot there as Valinor as a dwelling for the Valar was created after the destruction of the two lamps at which time they were already servants of Melkor.

[@cfh0384]

A true lore master :)

[@TheMasonK]

I have to imagine Gandalf did meet him before in the timeless halls. Of course that was before he was Gandalf and the balrog was a balrog.

[@TheWilkReport]

In the novel, Gandalf appears not to know the Balrog is even present until it bursts through the door using a spell, which the wizard seemed surprised by. He may have suspected something truly dark was in Moria, as did Legolas and Aragorn, but even they were taken by surprise when they understood what it was that pursued them through the ruins of the Dwarf kingdom. Now, whether Gandalf recognized the specific Balrog, whose name (to my knowledge) is not revealed, it's a bit complicated. Did the many Maiar know each other personally before the creation of Arda? Would they have recognized each other once embodied in Middle Earth?

[@venomdrenched]

Part of me wonders if somehow to balrog winding up in Moria to be awoken by the dwarves was part of Eru's plan so they didn't end up delving even *deeper* and running into the nameless things.

[@chad63]

the nameless things would slap sauron into submission lmao wished tolkien atleast revealed one of them

[@michaelogrady232]

​@chad63 The watcher in the water was probably one of them. That part of the tale has a delicious Lovecraftian element to it.

[@chad63]

@@michaelogrady232 i know. but that one is a runt lol i want to see the big guns

[@michaelogrady232]

@chad63 we actually do not know how big it is as Tolkien never described anything but it's tentacles

[@caseynash9729]

If Gandalf weren't shackled by his mortal form, it would have been a completely different fight.

[@eugenebelford9087]

I disagree. Both had mortal/ physical forms during the battle (The Balrog 'died' [rather: 'ended'] ultimately by crushing down from the mountain!). And the battle lasted ten days and went from the deepest levels of Moria up to the highest mountain top. Also, confronting a Balrog directly in this way (away from the firstborn) wasn't against the mandate not to match Sauron directly force vs force. It's more that a physical form per se seems to limit how much power a Maiar can use.

[@blue-pi2kt]

@@eugenebelford9087 but that's his point. Gandalf was nerfed whilst the Balrog was not.

[@jeffagain7516]

One thing perhaps worth mentioning, is the line of dialogue spoken by Gandalf; "now I understand"... This could refer to his new awareness of what "Durin's Bane" is finally revealed to be, as no other referred to it as such but I think it also puts focus on their initial confrontation, moments earlier. Gandalf had mentioned that he had placed a "Shutting Spell" on the door above the bridge cavern, and the foe had broke it asunder with impunity. Gandalf when on to state; "It nearly broke me"... as the force of the door rent asunder even tossed him down the stairwell. As to WHAT had the power to overcome his magic so easily? "Balrog... now I understand". This does much to identify that Gandalf had strong knowledge of not just what a Balrog was but also its capabilities. So yeah, Gandalf may not have met the demon before but of his ilk and the power they had, he seemed fully aware. No doubt, the Balrog was just as aware, not so much of WHO Gandalf was but certainly WHAT Gandalf was! :)

[@Corndogg316]

Good buds. Used to smoke bowls of pipeweed together. Had a terrible falling out tho.

[@DAN121472]

Both being Myar, how could they not know each other. It's possible that they did not recognize each other in their physical guise.

[@RobKlarmann]

I still reckon it's one of the greatest tactical pieces of writing when you consider how Gandalf organised the heist against Smaug to eventually have him taken out and then the Balrog. It's as if Sauron ended up losing his two star players. It's another testimony to how all things somehow work together. Also made me wonder about Pippin's foolery and how that stirred up the Balrog. That encounter with the Balrog was essential to draw out Gandalf 2.0 and allow him to become 'the White'...

[@Mallarkey]

Were they working for Sauron though? Morgoth, yes. A balrog would consider themselves equal in rank for sure. I rather think they would've tried to rival him...though probably been "persauded" to his team in time.

[@iainmc9859]

I'm not convinced of their personal acquaintance. I'm working on the basis that servants of Morgoth/Sauron effectively lose their individuality, like the Ring Wraiths; their past lives being a possible source of regret in their present state, so it would be well buried. The loss of independent thought is often a goal of military regimes in its adherents great and small.

[@alilopez4836]

Wow. So many creative representations of the moment Gandalf faced the Balrog!

[@adamg0d]

they were both maiar, and morgoth initially fought the valar's efforts at ordering the world alone. so for a time, olorin and the maiar who would become balrogs were all dwelling together in aman. eventually, like sauron, they would be turned and would join morgoth. they most definitely knew one another

[@Andy_466]

It is lore that the Balrogs dwelt with Melkor in Utumno his first fortress and prior to the destruction of the two lamps, at this time the Valar did not dwell in Aman, if Gandalf and the balrog as the maiar it previously was dwelt together it would have been prior to this.

[@matthewskudzienski888]

(Gandalf)”You Shall Not, Pass!!”

[@retirednavychief6983]

I read LoTR back in the early '70s. I always had the feeling that the Balrog was basically the same as Gandalf, both in power and in stature. He said something like 'a great shadow with a figure of a man in the middle'. Is it possible that they might have known each other BEFORE the Balrog was corrupted?

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

Gandalf vs Balrog is one of my all time favorite fight in The Lord of the Rings.

[@normthompson923]

Gandalf fought with the Balrog over the sealing of the door in marzabul but did not understand what he was fighting and so lost much of his energies in the encounter.This is what he finally understood upon seeing the balrog.

[@pwmiles56]

"I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." Anor is the Sun. The secret fire is the Flame Imperishable, placed at the heart of the world by Eru. Gandalf is clearly referring to Plato's Analogy of the Sun, which can be paraphrased: "As the Sun lights up the world, so too the ideal of the Good illuminates the mind." That is, consciousness itself is a gift of God. The theme is also present in the Palantir. "The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun" Gandalf here is continuing the philosophical battle. "I am a good Platonic Ideal, you are a bad Platonic Ideal, except Ideals can't be bad, haha gotcha" (cue whip).

[@johnmooers5594]

Flame of Anor = Narya

[@wynkoop2000]

⁠@@johnmooers5594 No, @pwmiles55 is correct that Anor is the Sindarin (elven) name for the Sun. The bearer of Narya was a deeply kept secret and it is highly unlikely Gandalf would reveal this in conversation with the enemy, let alone in front of the fellowship, none of whom knew he wore the ring. There is a good video on this by @RealmsUnravelled which does a decent job explaining this.

[@kirbymarchbarcena]

When Gandalf said "Now I understand" he was referring to the entity who counter his spell on the entrance door as he didn't know it yet that it was a Balrog. The question should have been "which Balrog?" considering that there were so many of them and "Durin's Bane" is just a term for that specific Balrog.

[@joels5150]

There weren’t a huge number of Maiar during the creation of Arda, so it’s reasonable that they all knew each other to at least some capacity. Like a grade in high school, certainly they all had their cliques, where some hung out more closely, but everyone knew each other in some capacity. The question would be more aptly posed as: Did they recognize each other during their encounter on the bridge? To that the answer is most likely not, at least not at first. Gandalf was effectively disguised in his role/capacity as an Istari, since that had been the purpose of them having their power level drastically reduced, and their memories wiped of their existence in Valinor. Likely, once Gandalf shouted out he was a servant of Eru, the Balrog at least figured out he was another Maiar, even if it couldn’t recognize specifically which Maiar.

[@xcosmiccrunchx]

The movie suggests that they were aware of eachother's existence. The balrog was the whole reason Gandalf didn;t want to go to the mines. Also, the way the balrog stands off against gandalf on the bridge.

[@The_Tradie_Trainer]

Books suggest the opposite (Gandalf only recognised his foe once Legolas identified it, and iirc it was Aragorn who warned against Moria).

[@micklumsden3956]

The film should never be a reference for finding the truth. That’s not meant to be negative towards the film(s)

[@DamonNomad82]

Given their history as both being Maiar and thus also both being Ainur, they would have at least met in passing at the beginning of their existence. At minimum, they "knew" each other in a way equivalent to two people who went to the same school at the same time without moving in the same friend groups or having any classes or extracurricular activities together and might not even have spoken to each other, but would occasionally cross paths in the hallways...

[@michaelogrady232]

You are correct in your assessment. Notice how in the movie Gandalf says "you shall not pass," while in the book he says "you cannot pass." One could argue they have the same meaning, but they actually do not. The former is a legal statute, while the latter implies a restriction, perhaps an impossibility. Could it be that the Valar (maybe even Eru) were aware of the Balrog's location and had made the area a prison with boundaries the Balrog could not pass? That might explain why the Balrog did not issue forth from Moria, not even to defeat the dwarves battling before the gate. Just a thought. Good video and God bless you.

[@blinky297]

Olorin wasn't just one of the wisest Maiar. The Silmarillion states that, "Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin." Gandalf had wisdom for days.

[@WasabiSniffer]

i agree. i don't think they knew each other, but based on the dialog at the bridge, Gandalf would know what the balrog is, not just as a fellow maiar but in the lore and legends throughout middle-earth, and I imagine he's had conversations with the likes of Glorfindel. likewise the balrog may not know who this frail old man is but he would understand the declaration and who he serves.

[@TarMody]

The encounter between Gandalf and the Balrog in Khazad-dûm is a moment in history woven through the Music of the Ainur. The musical equivalent of this is the clash of the melodies of Olórin and the Balrog (related Maia), known as Durin's Bane. Since we do not know the details of the War of Wrath, it is possible that Olórin was present in the army of the Valar led by Eönwë. Within this possibility, it is possible for Olórin to encounter one or more Balrogs, or even directly the Balrog known as Durin's Bane.

[@stinkleaf]

I think it’s easier to be a hero when you know where you go after you die. Middle Earthers had the luxury of having no mystery about that.

[@joshualittle877]

There actually is stuff in Tolkeins notes that suggest that Gandalfs arrival in the third age was not the first time he visited Middle Earth. He was likely part of the group of Miar that assisted Orome when the elves first awoke in Middle Earth at Cuivienin in the far East. This is indicated by the fact that the Istari incuding Gandalf came in a lesser form than their true form as seemingly old men and were forbidden to use their full power. There is a line that says something about this being done to prevent mistakes of the past when dealing with Middle Earth and its peoples. These mistakes refer to three different events. 1. The Elves or at least some of them did not trust the Valar and Miar and were intimidated by them in the beginning and this mistrust is what lead many Elves to refuse to make the Jouney to Valinor. Second to add to this the Elves had thus far only ever seen the dispays of the Ainur power in wrath when the War of Wrath took place. 3rd When the war for the sake of the Elves took place along with the Battle of the Powers and later War of Wrath they Valar and Miar destroyed much of their prior creation including destroying and sinking and entire Continent known as Beleriand( The Arondir Charachter in Rings of Power mentions that this is where he was from)..It was for these reasons that the Istari came in these stunted forms and were limited in the use of their powers. Gandalf according to Tolkeins notes as Olorin was likely part of the early group of Miar that were sent as Guardians to watch over the Elves mostly unseen and may also have been involved in the War of Wrath, and or the other two battles if that were the case he was likely also familiar with the Balrogs from that time.

[@s.scottstaten1852]

I believe the Maiar (all of them) were present in the beginning, with the great Musical Themes of Eru Illuvitar. That would place both Olorin and the Balrog at the same location. We don't know if they were aquainted as we don't know how many Vala and Maia were there (Not all came to Middle Earth IIRC) but they were both certainly aware of each others existance. I doubt they knew of each others location or current incarnation though. The Balrogs were hidden sinfce the fall of Thangorodrim and Gandalf didn't really display his power in the presence of the free peoples.

[@DigitalSystematic]

In my mind, all of the Balrogs came down to Arda and took the form of the dark shadowy/firey form that we see described. I can't see any of the Maia from the days of the Valar in the first age building the Lamps or the Two Trees suddenly deciding to travel to the north and take Balrog form like it's some kind of uniform to put on. This had to be some kind of collective decision very early on. Especially since these are basically Morgoth's Preatorian Guard. We see that Durin's bane is still in this form thousands of years later even after the apparent defeat of his master, which suggests that they cannot (or don't want to, or need to) change form so easily, unlike Sauron. In that way, they are similar to the Istari I believe. They made a decision to take this form and wield great and terrible power and they are locked into this until they are slain much like Gandalf and the other Istari. Take for example Ossë we read in the Silmarillion that he was turned for a while to help Morgoth but then came back and was loyal to Ulmo. Would Ossë have transformed into a Balrog because he's a very powerful Maia? It's not said he changed shape or anything but simply wavered in allegiance. With all that said, does that mean Gandalf and Durins bane knew each other even though it's very unlikely they have met physically in Arda/Ea? I think so. All of the Ainur gathered in the halls with Eru before the beginning of the universe and being what they are, spirits, they were all aware of eachother in the creating of the music and then the subsequent events such as being shown the vision by Eru and descending down. They may not have had a conversation in the same way that we think of but there's 100% some kind of telepathic vibes going on between them all. But put simply, when Gandalf told the rest of them to run, it was because he is super old, wise, and knows of the Balrog in Moria (as do many people) and has just put 1 + 1 together. NOT because he magically sensed his old colleague.

[@Unpainted_Huffhines]

There's no reason to assume they knew eachother personally, IMHO. The Balrogs were infamous, so Gandalf would've known exactly what (if not necessarily _who)_ Durin's Bane was. And Durin's Bane could probably sense exactly _what_ Gandalf was, but probably not _who_ he was.

[@jaredjordan9863]

The true significance of this battle is that it would be the last time two divine beings would fight in direct combat.

[@Golden_Rule_Truth]

I think it’s crazy that a man- The Witch King of Angmar - became more powerful than Durins Bane. Excellent writing

[@brianfrenkel7873]

I always thought they could have met in the halls of Iluvatar, before time itself. As Maiar, they both participated in the music of the Ainur, before Melkor’s corruption

[@GeraldM_inNC]

On a related topic, why weren't there more balrogs around in the Third Age? If I recall, Tolkien wrote that most of the balrogs hid themselves when the Valar captured Morgoth. Some of them were used in the battles against Gondor, but why not more of them? Are they still lurking about today somewhere in Middle Earth?

[@frogmand.142]

I put forth that Manwe knew there was a Balrog unaccounted for in Middle Earth and percieved that Gandalf would clash with it. And so Gandalf was sent in his "grey" form with just enough power to take the Balrog off the board. If he had been sent as SS Gandalf "White" from the start, he would have won easily but would have been diminished him so he could not have faced Sauron. As it was, when he was reincarnated as "White"he had lost all that was "Grey" but was easily able to get it back just by meeting his old friends.

[@JeremyKenny-h9p]

Durin's Bane has had a beef with Gandalf, ever since Olorin won the heart of the Balrog's would-be girlfriend at the 34th annual Valinor Drunken Barn Dance mixer. Gandalf cuts a mean rug on that dance floor.

[@drewskiwest5284]

as for "personal" interactions, its impossible to know since when they're sent to middle earth, they are wiped of certain memories and previous lives. only recounting a few memories. like when gandalf the white came back and said "yes i was once known as that name" at any rate, i'm sure everyone knew everyone, and then the division happened. balrogs seem to not even be able to speak anymore... and that's a horrible thing to do a sentient creature. making them rage more into the darkness/shadow.

[@thomaskeane5723]

Great video! Suggestion for the next one: Were Olorin and Galadriel in love in Valinor before she left?

[@StarsAndDreamz]

Wait, Balrogs like Durin's Bane were maiar at full power upon Arda, but Gandalf, who had to eschew might, still beat him. That's one tough Istari.

[@venomdrenched]

And he'd been hiking and fighting all day. Gandalf solo'd the dungeon boss without needing to heal up before hand.

[@MaironTheAdmirable]

I wouldn’t say that Balrogs were at “full power”. When a maiar took physical form in Arda, its power was definitely lessened from its original state. Even more so for istari but still true for balrogs as well. Not to mention that its power would also have been decreased when it was separated from Melkor. The only reason Gandalf was able to defeat it in battle was because the balrog had also suffered a major nerf to its potential power, similarly to Gandalf.

[@StarsAndDreamz]

@@MaironTheAdmirable why would it lose power away from Melkor? Was that mentioned in one of the other books? I also don't think it was ever mentioned that any of them lost power when on Arda. The balrogs were still spiritual forms. That's why Gandalf fought a flame, the oily blackness in the lake, and then when it got out into the air again and became flame. They didn't reduce in strength, but as stated, the Istari were at a minuscule fraction of their power. Gandalf is a badass.

[@sirpercarde709]

Glorfindol killed a balrog... Ecthelion, I believe it was, killed a couple. Maybe balrogs were overrated. 😉 Did they know each other? As many state here, Gandalf knew of balrogs. That is all I can say for certain. Anything else is just speculation. Everyone can make up their own stories but like "The Rings of Power", it is all just fan fiction.

[@MaironTheAdmirable]

@@StarsAndDreamz yes, actually. In the Silmarillion both of those things are mentioned. Regardless, Gandalf is still absolutely a badass.

[@redbarchetta8782]

6:17 That is one of the more accurate depictions of the Balrog I've scene. "like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater"

[@ryanklavans7256]

They were both Ainur and thus involved in the music at the beginning of the world. It's hard to think they didn't know each other at some point.

[@dontwannaname]

Perhaps there is a degree of recognition of what each of them are from how they appear to each other in the unseen world?

[@Svensk7119]

Gandalf knew of the Balrog, but the Balrog may have only known of Olorin. That is to say, he may not have known of the Istari coming from Valinor.

[@michelzwiers7742]

not betterhelp

[@gullinvarg]

I've wondered whether Gandalf and the Balrog knew each other as Maier before Melkor openly split from the other Valar with his followers. I'm a bit disappointed that the video didn't even bring it up, although folks in the comments have.

[@LittleHouseOnThePrairie23]

Beautifully made video. I very much enjoyed it. Well done.

[@Kornheiser10]

As I've said for years, there needs to be a musical very similar to Wicked, where we see the two of them as close friends until the balrogs were corrupted by Morgoth.

[@bdlarsen1225]

I love the thumbnail art. A different look of the balrog, very seraphic.

[@bullseyecooper1739]

Maybe, if they hadn’t met, they may have been aware of each other’s reputations. Just as is the case with great warriors or generals who have been involved in the same battles and wars but never actually met in person.

[@keithking1985]

The balrog was brilliantly done in the fellowship film. He really looked like an unbeatable foe.

[@TheCountZopolai]

Gandalf obviously knows *what* it is, and a lot about it, but that doesn't imply he knows *who* it is. He doesn't name-check it, but he does rattle off a lot of details about what that implies; but nothing specfic to this particular Balrog. Gandal *tells* the Balrog what he is (implying that the Balrog either did not, or may not, have known for certain), but not *who* he is. So, for example, everyone in the Fellowship knows that Gimli is a dwarf, and that implies a certain number of things about him, but can't be said to know him personally. And that makes sense. In the vague sense that all the Ainur existed together at the dawn of creation and participated in the Music, all of them have met at some point, but the bulk of those memories are lost to those who exist in Middle Earth proper outside the Undying Lands. So Gandalf probably does remember that some of his fellow Maiar left early on to join Melkorm, and others later, and maybe evern has a vague idea what happened to them, and probably has a pretty clear memory of the War of Wrath, and what became of the Balrogs afterwards; but that would be about it.

[@pedrovargas2181]

Funny. Free-available Stoicism material has helped me leaps and bounds with my mental health issues. About the video, Gandalf knew exactly who/what he was facing which implies previous knowledge, and the Balrog's knowledge or lack thereof does not matter as he/it pursues and attacks the Fellowship on sight.

[@Zathaghil]

The two definitely knew one another in person. They were siblings as were ALL Ainur. Before the creation of Arda ALL Ainur were created at the same time by Eru Iluvatar. They literally sang in the same choir creating the world! Olorin existed, just as the balrog, before even Arda was a thing. Geesh.

[@worker-wf2em]

The Balwogs were well known for their greased back hair, gold chains and love of Monaros.

[@icenhorn4744]

i like to think they knew of each other. i think it less plausible that they ever met before, simply because of gandalfs role as guide, and not leader through his history. met? no. knew of each other? more likely. great vid, thank you for showing both sides of the theorys!

[@maxpiemuse9584]

The Balrog seems somewhat taken aback, possibly confused when he meets Gandalf. I take it they didn't know each other but the Balrog was unsure about the encounter. Could this guy actually really be a maiar?

[@Cmdtheartist]

Balrog: "ARRRGGHH!!! FACE ME, OLORIN!!! MEET YOUR DOOM!!!!" Gandalf: ".....Kenny??? Whaaa da fuh?" Balrog Kenny: "BEEN WORKING OUT!!!!!!!"

[@davidponseigo8811]

This makes me think of in a time of war two opposing snipers will know of each other and of each others deeds but not to have personally met. They would actually avoid each other but definitely know of each other and of each others skills and how he operates.

[@Torstenn-b3x]

I feel Olorin and the Maia that became Durin's Bane would have known each other, since they both came about at the same time as the thought of Eru Iluvatar before Arda (the world) was made and both had a hand in the Song of the Ainur, which led to creation. This was before the Balrogs were corrupted by Melkor (Morgoth)...so they may well even have been on familiar/friendly terms at one point, long, long ago. Both went on to have other guises than their original forms: we know of course of Gandalf being the more limited version of Olorin, sent by the Valar along with the other Istari to guide the peoples of Middle Earth in striving against Sauron (of course, another Maia). The Balrog took on a darker, fiery form to befit its corrupted nature and hunger for power and domination when it served Morgoth. As "Gandalf" came back to Middle Earth later than the Balrogs, as Olorin he would have known of the Balrogs because he may well have been involved with the War of Wrath when Morgoth was overthrown and captured and most of his major servants with the exception of Sauron and Durin's Bane were killed. Earendil would also have told the Valar and the Maiar of what the Balrogs had done in Morgoth's service, and of course Manwe would have seen it all too and heard it from the Great Eagles. How much of this memory did _Gandalf_ retain though? I don't believe, as could be simplistically assumed, that Gandalf and the other Istari were complete amnesics with regards to their origins. Sure, it is stated that their memories of the distant past might have become blurry and indistinct, but clearly Gandalf knew he had come from over the Sea of Belegaer from Valinor - since he went to sail back there at the end of LOTR - which means he is either a Vala (not true), a Maia (the only option) or an Elf (also not true). He also knows of his mission, that is to _guide_ the peoples of Middle Earth and to inspire them but not to _directly_ content with Sauron to overthrow him (in case he falls to the same lust for power). Additionally, Gandalf's speech to Durin's Bane reveals he knew he himself was a Maia - "I am a servant of the Secret Fire" (the Flame Imperishable), wielder of the flame of Anor (the Evlish word for the Sun). Gandalf here is expressedly telling the Balrog that he is a Maia and that the Balrog cannot expect to just swat him aside like it might with anyone else. He also names the Balrog as the "Flame of Udûn", which means he knew exactly what it was too, as Udûn is Morgoth's original fortress. I like to think here that at this time of great need, Gandalf was perhaps able (i.e. allowed by Higher authority) for a while to access more of Olorin's power, because his battle with Durin's Bane is so epic he really shouldn't have been able to have been captured by Saruman or forced up a tree by mere wargs if he was that powerful all the time. It is interesting though that Gandalf prior to this came to the understanding of what he faced in Moria relatively much more slowly than the Peter Jackson film denotes. I'm not convinced he was _sure_ prior to going in that there was a Balrog in Moria (unlike the non-Canon "you know what they awoke..." speech by Saruman), only that there was a nameless evil there. Because the original passage in the book where Gandalf and the Balrog first interact is just after the fight in the chamber of Mazarbul (where the troll is killed): Gandalf puts a spell of closing on the door behind them to stop the orcs from following. However, _something_ comes along and produces such a powerful counter-spell that the door exploded and Gandalf was greatly taxed and fatigued, not to mention shaken by it. "Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company. 'Well, well! That's over!' said the wizard struggling to his feet. 'I have done all that I could. But I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed. But don't stand here! Go on! You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken. Go on! Go on! Where are you, Gimli? Come ahead with me! Keep close behind, all of you!'" and "Gimli took his arm and helped him down to a seat on the step. 'What happened away up there at the door? ' he asked. 'Did you meet the beater of the drums?' 'I do not know,' answered Gandalf. 'But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength. 'As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghâsh; that is "fire". Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. 'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think. 'I am afraid Balin is buried deep, and maybe something else is buried there too. I cannot say. But at least the passage behind us was completely blocked. Ah! I have never felt so spent, but it is passing.'" It is only actually when Legolas cries out "Ai! Ai! A Balrog! A Balrog is come!" that Gandalf _truly_ understood what he was facing. "Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face. 'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'" But by the time of the actual confrontation on the bridge, I think both Gandalf and Durin's Bane were in the know of each other, even if they didn't recognise specifically which Maia the other was.

[@panhandlersparadise1733]

I look forward to the in depth explanation of this topic, but I'm going to warrant a guess and see if I get the answer right before watching. I think they were both Maiar, therefore they would have known each other, at least to some extent, from the time before Melkor's betrayal and theft of the Silmarils.

[@dad7130]

They sang together in the Ainulindalae, ALL of the Ainur. The Valar And the Maiar. They are both offspring of Eru's thoghts. Different parts of HIS mind.

[@dlseller]

The Silmarillion does not give any indication of how much time passed between the creation of the Maiar and the creation of Arda. Everyone of the Maiar could possibly have known every other Maiar intimately in the time before the creation of the world.

[@philkugler2429]

This video made me compare Morgoth to Jerry McGuire. Basically, instead of getting Renée Zellweger to join, he got Balrogs.

[@mikeuzelac3776]

They were both in the choirs of Eru. Before the world, before sides were chosen. It could have even happened when the world was young before the lamps. When the Maiar helped form the world.

[@psazani]

One thing it proves: The Balrog knew the Common Tongue

[@jaeluxe]

Gandalf didn’t know that Balrog. He just understood what he was facing and he was introducing himself to the Balrog so that it would understand that he was more than he appeared.

[@noelstarchild]

Gandalf knew he was Maiar and knew of the Balrog's fire. He didn't have to know the Balrog to know exactly what he was taking on. Gandalf knew the power of the fire that dwelt within him could overcome the fire of the Balrog, but he didn't dare under estimate his foe. That much is evident in the LOTR.

[@JOECURR1488]

THE HALFLINGS LEAF BROUGHT THEM TOGETHER 😂

[@uriustosh]

Short answer? Yes. Long answer? Not really in any meaningful way. Gandalf has no memory of anything he did before, he could have spent time hanging out with this Balrog pre-Morgoth's corruption and not even known. The Balrogs left pretty early though, so the positive or neutral interactions they had as Maiar would be limited. And Gandalf would not remember it, so even if the Balrog recognized the essence, the spirit of the person, it wouldnt communicate that to them anyway. Though, its possible the Balrog knows exactly who Gandalf is, in his truest form and oldest identity. Again, this information doesnt change much in their fight, Balrog isnt going to mention it and say hey bro I remember you!

[@genXdoom72]

The maiar that became the balrogs were drawn to Melkor during the song of creation, there are an unknown amount of maiar, I doubt they ever met

[@ernestschroeder9762]

What might be more interesting is why the most powerful creature in middle earth stayed in moria

[@nicolastousignant9160]

Considering Maiar existed before the creation of the phisical world, they most certainly knew each other in some form or another. As far as I understand it, Gandalf only had a vague/abstract memory of himself before his Istarification. There may very well have been encounters between the 2 during the fall of Beleriand, but that would have been as Olorin, not Gandalf. Seems more likely that the recognition on gandalfs part was more a mix of wizard peception and knowledge of old lore..... Legolas also identifies the balrog on sight, after all. As to the Balrog, there is no indication he recognizes gandalf as a maiar, at least until the wizards speach of defiance. Even then, its not clear he truly understands exactly what he is facing. Though, presumably, he must figure it out at some point during their subsequent epic chase and battle😂

[@Sentinalprimus1]

I always like to think they metaphorically, “Knew each other from high school.”

[@chestergt7765]

Not only knew each other, but were lovers .

[@NV..V]

They manned a lemonade stand together in cub scouts and finished 2d and 3d in the First Age Pinewood Derby Championship.

[@rickardroach9075]

Gandalf: Hello, there.