It's Not Just Elites & Everybody Else (Catherine Liu Interview)

[@juliettedemaso7588]

How did I miss this one?! I bought her book, love this lady. She’s not getting nearly enough coverage for how relevant her social analysis is; thank you for featuring her, David.

[@DharmaPunk111]

Wow this lady was so cool. She actually listened to you, was understanding, and willing to see things differently. You should invite more marxists onto your show!

[@realdanrusso]

Yes! agreed

[@JohnMoran]

I love her too, she's always brilliant.

[@777jettford]

The managerial class and it's relationship to the master capitalists is very well illustrated in the documentary "The Trials of Gabriel Fernandez." What is demonstrated in the film is the privatization of social services, specifically child protective services in the state of CA wherein the managerial class serves up the McDonaldization of human services for the profit of large corporations vis a vis political influence. Super interesting. Thanks for the content, David and Dr. Liu.

[@BigR376]

I'm kind is skeptical of a person who is basically a PMC, bashes PMCs.

[@777jettford]

@@BigR376I definitely didn't interpret her analyses as bashing. I feel being critical of one's own position is helpful and offers a valuable perspective.

[@BigR376]

@@777jettford You're right, maybe bashing is the wrong word. Here's the problem with her commentary, PMCs like herself are far more likely to support progressive policy than the white working class. There are multiple data points that prove this. For example in the 2020 primary more educated white people (generally referred to as libs) voted at higher rates for Biden, while the "working class" turned out more for Biden, the supposed "neoliberal." I use quotes around these terms because people have different interpretations of their meanings.

[@cathichristian4142]

She delivered her message without attacking. So refreshing and I was able to listen.

[@hyena280]

She's making some very accurate points.

[@BigR376]

Here's the problem with her commentary, the PMCs she speaks of are far more likely to support progressive policy than the white working class. For example, she's basically a PMC herself.

[@hyena280]

@@BigR376 Nothing wrong with describing faults generally, whether or not they include your own.

[@hyena280]

@David W Basic establishment of what the problems are first, then figure out strategies to deal with them.

[@laserbrain7774]

@@BigR376 She says that they are desperate to think of themselves that way, but thats their delusion. And she is right. Fearless self inventory is beyond their capability.

[@BigR376]

@@laserbrain7774 but who cares about their mindset? Sure, it's an interesting academic study, but when it comes down to it, the PMCs are more likely to support progressive policy. Isn't that what we want?

[@djluminol]

I love these interviews you do. I wish you had one everyday. They're often the best part of the show.

[@thepokekid01]

She has very inspirational posture. It might be partly camera angle too, but the posture that she presents herself in has an overwhelming sense of confidence, assertiveness, comfort, and compassion that really inspires the audience. It doesn't matter what she spoke about here, you would come away feeling interested in what she was saying and thought provoked, even if you didn't understand what she was talking about. And it definitely felt like she had a precise language that I don't know if it is the easiest for everyone to understand, but this was definitely a good way to wake you up in the morning. Better than coffee. (Well.. at least for me)

[@j-sinister9274]

she's highly intelligent you should have her back if possible

[@CarlyonProduction]

Catherine is absolutely awesome. Great interview too.

[@stephenblobaum5506]

David PacMan could never imagine being the “bad guy”.

[@nathanknight6042]

Yep, his response will always be... "b...bu...but Trump" 🙄

[@tylerhackner9731]

Thank you for this conversation ✊🏼✊🏼

[@RobinHerzig]

Catherine Liu gets it. brilliant analysis

[@DanLee8884]

Imagine that...actually changing society will make the world a better place. This is why MLK jr. also focused on poverty.

[@carmant2]

The interview about elitism is very concise and interesting, I might check out that book at some point.

[@justanotherguy1794]

Parkman's Hofstadter-era conflation of "right" and left-wing populism is really disqualifying: there's no such thing as "right-wing populism" (see: anything Thomas Frank's ever written). Props to Liu for practicing what she preaches. I wonder if she's this easy on her students.

[@Dan-ud8hz]

"Responsibility is a unique concept... You may share it with others, but your portion is not diminished. You may delegate it, but it is still with you... If responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion, or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else. Unless you can point your finger at the man who is responsible when something goes wrong, then you have never had anyone really responsible.” “I believe it is the duty of each of us to act as if the fate of the world depended on him. Admittedly, one man by himself cannot do the job. However, one man can make a difference. We must live for the future of the human race, and not for our own comfort or success.” “Above all, we should bear in mind that our liberty is not an end in itself; it is a means to win respect for human dignity for all classes of our society.” ― Admiral H.G. Rickover, Father of the US Nuclear Navy

[@zacheryhershberger7508]

Love Catherine Liu

[@dangahzone]

God, I forgot what a real leftist sounds like. Leftist twitter and Kyle had me ready to give up on these ideas ever gaining traction. I feel like she had more to say. I wish Vaush would have people like this on his stream rather than debating tankies constantly.

[@CarlyonProduction]

I know. He uses all the stupid terms like class reductionist without actually engaging anyone like Catherine or Adolph Reed junior. They are on another level.

[@axisapex]

This lady is Spot on at 11:30 to 15:30 and PMC's don't want People to have these discussions.

[@charlesronk2989]

I totally agree with the professor. Much of this other crap will go away on its own if you adress the economic issues.

[@JohnMoran]

And stop divisively infantilizing people.

[@stephenblobaum5506]

Yes, PMC like David PacMan.

[@2serve4Christ]

@GOP = @DNC. It is not about left/right, conservative/liberal. IT IS ALL ABOUT $$$ (professional managerial class). IT IS ALL ABOUT $$$. IT IS ALL ABOUT $$$. IT IS ALL ABOUT $$$. I have $$$. I deserve $$$. If you don't have $$$, it is your fault (poor working class).

[@Muzzlepaint]

Liu is amazing... her tolerance of Neo-Liberalist Pakman and ability to deflect his distraction is a master class in engaging liberal democrats. Sadly her comments on Biden have not aged well.

[@vthyaga]

Excellent interview - wish it was (way) longer!

[@willloman812]

I think she just indicted David Pakman to his face. That was cool.

[@joel-yd1rv]

When

[@killakaiju]

Facts

[@admindeno2982]

very interesting interview, thanks

[@hamizanyunos1502]

James Burnham was considered the originator of the idea of Professional Managerial class in his work the Managerial Revolution published in 1941. I think a good example of person from this Professional Managerial class is Bill Lumbergh who is doesn't own the company but is a micromanager that organizes schedules and paperwork that ensures workers are organized according to the capitalist owners.

[@Dan-ud8hz]

"The future is already here - it's just not evenly distributed." William Gibson "If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality." Stephen Hawking, 2015 Reddit AMA "Even before the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic occurred, the US was mired in a 40-year population health crisis. Since 1980, life expectancy in the US has increasingly fallen behind that of peer countries, culminating in an unprecedented decline in longevity since 2014." doi: 10.1001/jama.2020.26339 "Technological fixes are not always undesirable or inadequate, but there is a danger that what is addressed is not the real problem but the problem in as far as it is amendable to technical solutions." Engineering and the Problem of Moral Overload doi: 10.1007/s11948-011-9277-z "I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals." Albert Einstein, Why Socialism? "Above all, we should bear in mind that our liberty is not an end in itself; it is a means to win respect for human dignity for all classes of our society.” Admiral H.G. Rickover, Father of the US Nuclear Navy

[@DarkKnightOmega]

Talking about the professional managerial class is similar to what Michael Albert has written about also if I understood correctly. I forgot the term he used (coordinator class). But overall I agree though. It’s like, a lot of people end up selling out to the system instead of trying to change it to make it better for everyone. The free market ideology is used by elites as well as the professional managerial class as an excuse to spend as little money as possible on programs for the public as possible. Whilst people bail out to their suit and tie parties right after they get their first managerial paycheck.

[@kilgoretrout9725]

Thanks, David. 😃

[@Buckoux]

This woman, Catherine Liu, is so smartly reasoned that she would have been a welcome advisor to America's Founding Fathers at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. She claims to be a Marxist but I find her far from doctrinaire in that she seems to use Marx as a tool to analyze American society. I'm a free society-economy capitalist and have been a business owner, a PMC (for a while) and blue-color worker (tool & die maker), a soldier, and she gets them all right. What she's dealing with, I think, is the 'Academic-Government Complex that has set the tone for American society since WW-II. She may be a liberal and I know I am a conservative (not Republican), but I do think she's correct in her analysis of what's wrong in America.

[@JohnMoran]

She's an actual (old school) leftistl, in my vocabulary. I feel we desperately need a return to those values.

[@lauriemontijo]

It seems to me that most of the people that comprise the college educated, white collar, financially comfortable group of people they are speaking of would have a tough time seeing their role in all of this by virtue of the thinking that got them there and justifies what they are doing would continue to allow them to deny what when objectively analyzed is true. I would like to hear what a their analysis consists of and the factors they think make this untrue.

[@oneigniter]

Psychobabble, can you complete this for the rest of us?

[@jaspersterling4755]

Damn shes good

[@Metalmonkey80]

How ironic you interviewed her. This page is full of liberal PMCs!

[@JohnMoran]

Society absords the threats to its control - see Rap music of the late 1980s opposed to what it became.

[@evgeny9965]

Came from a 25 year run at cultural inst. that is totally folding to WOKE and CRT ideologies . Any criticism of the INST is condemned by the toadies remaining there as a person criticizing them is a sign of diminished mental capacity, bitterness, rancor etc. when in fact this institution is a vital part of the current cultural menu which belongs to everyone and whose criticism can have a positive effect. They are all afraid; many of them just shut off .

[@vietnamd0820]

David, thanks for pushing back on the issue of Trump and Russia...Trump straight up said that if Russia’s listening, he hoped they find Hillary’s emails

[@laserbrain7774]

Hysterical.

[@renocool1558]

and?

[@JohnMoran]

Congratulations for (at least hopefully) being the most gullible person here. On the other hand, this is David Packman, so...

[@vietnamd0820]

@@JohnMoran What makes me “gullible”?

[@benjaminreynolds3659]

Capitalism, it is capitalism that is the root cause. If our economic system was scrapped and built from scratch and not based on profit then a lot of these issues Liu talks about wouldn't be issues.

[@Chip4576]

Isn’t she kind of self owning herself? She’s bashing the petite bourgeois for being preachy to the working classes while preaching to the working classes as a member of the petite bourgeois. Kind of short sighted imo, but good to have hard lefties on the show I guess.

[@Chip4576]

@@starlight0002 I mean she does compare PMC to PB herself, but regardless, I’m not at all trying to say that PMC are far left, quite the contrary. What I am saying is that she’s speaking quite harshly of upper middle class, college educated, professional types of people when that’s exactly what she is. It’s not necessarily hypocritical to critique your own class, but the fact that she seems to think that she’s excluded from those criticisms is why I say she’s a bit short sighted.

[@JohnMoran]

She's doing the opposite, by speaking harshly against the kind of safe-space thinking of Academia and corporate America, and focusing on economics over identity labels. She has a large vocabulary, maybe that's offputting, but it's hardly the usual lecture.

[@caseymckenzie4760]

Oh my god Packman is a partisan hack hack hack.....the worst pmc on the planet.

[@VincentTroia]

does anyone know why pakman is not a marxist? has he talked about it?

[@nunyabusiness7237]

Yes it is. Thats why there is a definition for the ratchet effect and why we have tax loopholes and politicians passing tax breaks for the rich and yet we cant get a min wage increase.

[@jb44421]

Already purchased 2 copies of this book. ☺️

[@alistairmackintosh9412]

@@osmosisjones4912 Marshall plan?

[@thepolticalone961]

PMCs are an issue

[@daft_punker]

Oh sick! I took a film analysis class with her at UCI!

[@JohnMoran]

that would have been interesting!

[@brucegemmell730]

She was incredibly kind and patient, but probably can’t get to far insulting a guy openly on his own show when he is giving her a platform.

[@JohnMoran]

Maybe she has a lot of platforms to speak on, and maybe he deserves it.

[@maplesyrup76]

Wow! Great guest David. Hope some of the other progressive-minded KZbinrs follow suit to host her for a conversation.

[@Dan-ud8hz]

"The embrace, by working Americans, of policies that hurt their own interests can be understood on the basis of Ferenczi’s model of identification with the aggressor. Intrafamilial child abuse is often followed by the abuser’s denial. Children typically comply with abuse, in behavior and by embracing the abuser’s false reality, under threat of emotional abandonment. Similarly in the sociopolitical sphere, increasing threats of cultural and economic dispossession have pressed working Americans to adopt an ideology that misrepresents reality and justifies their oppression. In society as in the family, there can be a compensatory narcissistic reaction to forfeiting one’s rights that, ironically, encourages feelings of power and specialness while facilitating submission." The traumatic basis for the resurgence of right-wing politics among working Americans - doi: 10.1057/pcs.2015.53

[@geared2cre8]

Rage against the machine

[@mikemonahan8881]

What happened in 1972 that caused blue collar wages to stagnate?

[@alistairmackintosh9412]

Vietnam war debt, OPEC oil embargo, and the first stages of neoliberal economic policies.

[@laserbrain7774]

Nixon took us off the gold standard

[@ppfuchs]

This lady is a gift to extreme Rightist Reactionaries. And she plays fast and loses with actual facts. The point of view she ascribed to MSNBC, as allegedly representative of elitist themes, directly after the 2008 crisis, is in fact the opposite of what every talking head on MSNBC was saying at the time. I remember watching a lot of MSNBC in those days, and they were simply not saying what she alleges. It was Fox News, unsurprisingly, that was proffering the viewpoint she excoriates. Actual history is, as always, more complicated that the facile and wobbly notions half-baked thinkers like this lady come up with to fit the narrow needs of their ideology. As I said, she is a gift to rightist crazies, and Mr. Pakman, who usually has more sense, should be careful of whom he he is giving a platform, for rightists to further construct their delusions therefrom in reaction.

[@JohnMoran]

Your comment is hilarious, actually. You come off as a poltiical cartoon of the class she's describing.

[@therealpaulallen]

Interaction for the algorithm.

[@stevecoley8365]

X-Files.The filthy rich vampires (greed) use their SS squad (police and military) to suck the joy out of humans (love). It's also how the hostile alien invaders keep their human cattle corralled. The alien monsters control US by doing ugly things without blinking an eye that humans can't do in their ugliest nightmares. Sanction, starve, torture, murder and bomb (wheeeee)! Ignorance (hate) is bliss for vampires (greed). But not much fun for the humans (love) who they are sucking the joy out of. Vampires (greed) are inhumane because they are not human. The capitalist counting corpses commit crimes against humanity because they are not human. Light and truth (love) cause vampires (greed) great pain and suffering. That's why the words society (socialism), "care for all" and "green new deal" cause the counting corpses that rule US such misery. The evangelical monsters are "desperate" to control a darkship called the Whitehouse. Because working in the dark to suck the joy out of life and devour earth is the only way that the loveless, lifeless parasites can survive and thrive. Unlike earthling poets, artists, musicians, mystics, human beings and creators of joy...the evangelical counting corpses that rule US can't create harmony (real intelligence) because vampires (greed) are ignorant (dead).

[@exi8550]

If democrats want a chance to actually get something done they will listen to these types of criticisms.

[@laserbrain7774]

that would require fearless self inventory.

[@JohnMoran]

They don't, and they won't, sadly.

[@thisaccountisdead9060]

People like Liu are a valuable voice, and I've learned I lot from listening to people with a Marxist analysis. But I have also learned a lot from listening to Anarchists and Post-Modernists and people affected by cultural issues such as racism, sexism and prejudice against LGBT people. I think unfortunately, Marxists are not going to win people over in a positive way using their current tactic - they don't seem to recognise how distorted the philosophy of materialism has become under NeoLiberalism.

[@thisaccountisdead9060]

@@starlight0002 As an example, which of these two statements, that conflict with each other but are used regularly, do you most agree with (you don't have to tell me)?: - A) Biological sex is a material fact. Gender Identity is idealistic and only exists in the mind. B) There is no such thing as 'biological sex' because sex is an idealistic category. Gender Identity is a material socially constructed reality.

[@thisaccountisdead9060]

@@starlight0002 You seem to have a pragmatic view, like myself, combining both options for A) and B) for what constitutes reality. Well, what I was saying in the first comment you replied to, that you said you didn't understand - about the philosophy of materialism being distorted under neoliberalism, and then this creating problems for genuine materialists like marxists to communicate to the general public - is that under neoliberalism (as far as I understand it) what I said in A) "Biological sex is a material fact. Gender Identity is idealistic and only exists in the mind" , is the only acceptable framing of a 'material belief' under a neoliberal philosophy. But this is however, the total opposite of actual materialist philosophy, reflected by what I said in B) "There is no such thing as 'biological sex' because sex is an idealistic category. Gender Identity is a material socially constructed reality". There is a recent Philosophy Tube video discussing Jordan Peterson's ideology. That video covers 'phenomenology' - presenting two ways of percieving something: either just looking at an object without moving (which would be 'idealistic' - because its static), or looking at the object while moving around it (which would be 'materialistic' - because it involves change). We obviously percieve the world as a combination of the two, but the two perceptions are very different. Neoliberalism (as a far as I understand it) has a bias towards the static perception. And in a perverted twist, labels this idealistic perception as engaging with material reality (even though it is that exact opposite of that). As Neoliberalism is the dominant belief system in the culture. It is then very confusing for the average person to listen to actual materialists like Marxists (who do actually have a dialectical view of reality - combining the material of labour/work and the idealistic of capital/money) who use 'material' and 'idealistic' in the opposite ways to neoliberals. And unfortunately, many Marxists don't seem to account for this.

[@anonymoususer6037]

If you put the focus on what she says, you'll be accused of being a 'class reductionist'.

[@CarlyonProduction]

Exactly. That term itself is a creation of the PMC to police discussions around class and universal programs

[@SetTrippin82]

Although Pakman is a puppet for neoliberal elites and the status quo, I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this critical analysis of the class struggle.

[@caseypdx503]

Very deep analysis here 🙄😆 what do you think neoliberal even means? Pakman is pretty progressive and social democratic. I think you’re just getting caught up in the buzzwords.

[@caseypdx503]

@@stephanielewis5595 again...deep 🙄

[@DBQ42]

What makes him a puppet of neoliberal elites? Please, explain. we're all ears.

[@caseypdx503]

@Keun-rok Park K I think you mean *realistic because "incrementalism" is exactly how our system is designed to function. Now if you want to talk about abandoning that system, that is an entirely different discussion.

[@caseypdx503]

@Keun-rok Park K It couldn't possibly be that politicians are responding to their constituents that VOTE for them? I'm sure you'd point to boogeymen like Manchin- but what you're missing is if Manchin would be replaced, it wouldn't be by someone further left, it would be an actual republican. Do I need to explain how it is preferable to have someone who could (even just slightly) be pushed to be more progressive? versus someone who simply wouldn't? Keep up your delusions if you want...but a key to a ton of this stuff is getting more YOUNG PEOPLE TO VOTE. A ton of more moderate, older democrats are the ones who vote- and yet you ask, why are the politicians moderate?

[@coolbreeze2.0-mortemadfasc13]

Wow...I'm in that class. Not rich, but very financially comfortable and secure. I don't at all agree with their philosophy though.

[@JohnMoran]

Surprise!

[@sentientfetus3894]

Can you at least stop sayings its the Republicans who Don't care about me after birth. When you want to make everyone body objectively poor so no one is relatively poor for something as petty as equality

[@daylasims]

I am very disappointed by the commenters. This guest is ridiculous. First of all, her description of "RussiaGate" could have come from Fox news or Newsmax. I should not have to explain this to Pakman viewers, so I won't. Pakman is a Capitalist (with reasonable constraints), a believer of Enlightenment principles. He should have shut this ridiculous woman down.

[@Wolfkiller]

Shut up lib

[@laserbrain7774]

@@Wolfkiller You meant to say "neolib".

[@laserbrain7774]

Pakman is another mendacious authoritarian in a sea of mendacious authoritarians and Russiagate is Hysterical like you.

[@JohnMoran]

I hope you've woken up from that propaganda over the last 3 years. Trump tore up our nuclear agreements with Russia while arming Ukraine for 4 years. He did that after Obama had ordered the arming of Ukraine to stop, declaring the situation with Ukraine's far-right militias too dangerous to be arming. I know, Dems tried to impeach Trump for what was only a 3 week pause in those arms shipments (that's 3 weeks out of 4 years). But Trump followed Hillary's plan of continuing the US coup of Ukraine of 2014 and preparing the country for a US-proxy war, which has now seen almost a million Ukrainians die. In fact, Blackrock corporation now owns FAR more of Ukraine than Russia has taken. And it pushed the rest of the world into forming BRICS, which will evntually mean the end of the US dollar. Congratulations on your poltiical insight, though.

[@adlucem9845]

Blm be making $$$$

[@vthyaga]

Excellent interview - wish it was (way) longer!