BIGGEST DIY Mistakes Adding a New Socket

[@craigomalley112]

If you're not an electrician and are planning to add any socket, or light switch. Listen to this firstly!!!! It will give you the confidence to add the electrical circuit and be certain you're doing it correctly. The advice he gives is absolutely correctly pitched AND ■(surprisingly)■ is even backed up with mathematical proof. Well done video poster!!!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Very kind of you to say, thank you!

[@capnskiddies]

I would have almost no confidence in my ability to identify the paths of ring circuits in my home. It was built in 1976, and rewired by a gobshite, at least partially, at some point in the early 2000's. I'm fairly certain I've extended the end of a radial to two double sockets in the living room, it's just for lamp lighting and phone chargers.

[@capnskiddies]

I would have almost no confidence in my ability to identify the paths of ring circuits in my home. It was built in 1976, and rewired by a gobshite, at least partially, at some point in the early 2000's. I'm fairly certain I've extended the end of a radial to two double sockets in the living room, it's just for lamp lighting and phone chargers.

[@paguliukas]

Most gadgets now low consumption so to reach 20amps is hard plus u ad one socket not 3 or 5 😅😮 on the ring. But i agree very good explaniation i learned a lot. But if u have a litle brain u know kinda what hes saying

[@neilstevenson1485]

Thanks mate, clear precise and stopped me making a mistake. So thank you

[@dootburger7466]

Thank you for not padding this video with filler. Too many KZbinrs pad their videos with junk which makes the boring to watch. This video was all killer no filler. Thank you!!!

[@shumble69]

As an electrician of 44 years and approved NICEIC contractor, you are pretty spot on with this video, but would remind anyone watching that the provision of a new circuit from CCU would require to be Part P notified and an installation certificate issued. But still one of the more accurate diy videos I’ve seen. 👍

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@GeorgeHafiz]

does this mean that the suggestion at 3:42 where you break the ring into two radials, and add a breaker, you would have to become a Competent Person?

[@johnburns4017]

@@GeorgeHafiz You have to be _competent_ to start any electrical work.

[@cassiomx88]

Its an unusually good explanation from a DIYer. A few sparks i've worked with still can't see the potential problem with multiple spurs disturbingly. Many rings wired correctly to a 32a MCB are still not really OK. Once you take in to account cable runs through possible insulation in existing installs, there is a potential of thermal problems. Quite a few sparks I know and myself also often derate the MCBs to 20a on existing 32a ring finals to eliminate these issues and keep Zs values acceptable. Other than a kitchen, its fairly rare an area supplied by a ring will ever require more than 20amps. The only real advantage of a ring is versatility, as you can theoretically draw 32 amps from one room if you want - but unlikely in this day and age. In the days of 3kw electric fires pre-central heating and very little insulation, if any, in dwellings, they were quite a good idea. Copper would generally be saved in older ring installs, as the ring would run around the more central part of the house - usually where the fuse board would be, then by design various spurs would be taken to the outer walls of the house. I do feel that 32a rings on new installs should be avoided and taken out of the regs. There used to be a reg stating you can't have more spurs than points on the ring, but was removed a while ago I think. Pinching power off an upstairs lighting circuit can be fine in a loft, generally only required for a TV amplifier unless you plan to grow thing up there!

[@johnburns4017]

@@cassiomx88 Ban rings? Please! With more and more very low current drawing consumer appliances about they are superb, giving as many outlets as you need. One ring replaces a multitude of radials and associated AFDDs and larger consumer unit, reducing costs greatly. I have a hob, oven, dishwasher, washing machine and boiler on their own dedicated radials. LED lights on two 1.00mm radials. The final socket ring does the rest. The heaviest appliance on the ring is a 1.5 kW vacuum cleaner (about 6 amps) which is used for a matter of minutes each time it is used. The one ring can also be on *one* AFDD, giving the highest protection.

[@quirkygreece]

Excellent video. I’ve been in the construction industry for over 50 years and this is the clearest explanation of domestic circuitry that I have ever heard, thank you.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Very kind of you to say so, thanks for watching!

[@alansutton2980]

Excellent video. I thought I was competent in installing spurs/extra sockets but now know that I actually knew very little. Thank you.

[@WorldSoundSystem]

I knew most of that, but I've never come across safe-plates before. Such a simple idea.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching! Safe plates are great for plumbing too

[@CriticalEducation4SD]

Very effective and clear explanation here. Genuine depth of knowledge illustrated by ability to provide analytical and critical commentary on regs…Is what I’d say if this was a university assessment submission! 😅 But seriously, it’s this level of understanding our subjects, to which we should all aspire. Kudus!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you, I’m no expert, just an over enthusiastic diyer

[@Czechbound]

Even for a civilian like me I was able to follow it.

[@adamhardy8690]

Kudos

[@HishamX]

As a hobby diy electrician of 6 years, this video is very helpful and informative and recommend any beginners or even professionals to watch this

[@chrisholt2474]

Great explanation, I will watch this film a few time to make sure I understand the content. Much appreciated, thank you, regards, Chris.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Awesome, thank you!

[@FurFoxAche]

His voice keeps rising like he’s asking a question all the time. Very irritating.

[@FurFoxAche]

It’s only 3 mins in and his rising intonation is too much. I can’t listen to any more.

[@tomsmith3045]

I've never heard an explanation for ring circuits before! The war makes perfect sense. Thank you! Never legal in the US. Ring configurations were used in some communications systems, though, and with the same issue. Without a failure detect mechanism, you wouldn't know you lost your redundancy.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@kjellg6532]

Ring circuits are commonly used in long haul fiber communication systems as SDH/Sonet systems. There is a virtual break of the ring when in normal use. The moment a real break occurs, the virtual break is shifted to span the real break and the fault alarm is raised.

[@stevegray5709]

Excellent video young man. Clear and concise. Also made me feel good about all the electrical extensions and other work I did in my 70's house back in the 80's (they really didn't cater for a future power hungry world). It would appear I did it all correctly. House is still here along with me!!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you, very appreciated! Glad you enjoyed it

[@johnburns4017]

@@Dailymailnewz What are you on about?

[@simonmaverick9201]

Your videos are always pure information packed, I have learnt so much from your videos about DIY - thanks.

[@Badgerooni90]

Great topic. I’m an electrician myself. I agree ring circuits are no longer needed. Most equipment in homes nowadays would happily run on 2.5 radial circuits. 60 years ago 2.5 radial circuits might not have been the perfect solution with alot more resistive loads drawing more current but nowadays everything is much more efficient.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching! Absolutely agreed, outside of anything that has a heating element, most appliances draw little current these days

[@zaxmaxlax]

They were never needed or used elsewhere, I didnt even know they existed until I started watching UK electricians videos. I can see the point in WW2 era britain but if you saving copper wouldnt you also save power? I can understand it in an industrial setting powering multiple machines but a 1940's home? People didn't even have refrigerators let alone washing machines and electric heaters.

[@craigbeesleyproperty]

What's the difference in a spur off of a socket versus a radial circuit though, surely the same principal? And you're saying radial is fine, so why is only 1 socket allowed off a spur?

[@Badgerooni90]

​@@craigbeesleyproperty I think you mean what's the difference between spurring off a ring circuit and spurring of a radial circuit ? is that your question

[@craigbeesleyproperty]

@Baggiolyful no. A radial is just single wire not looped, to 4 or 5 sockets. A spur is just single wire to another socket, what difference is there in then carrying that on and making effectively another radial?

[@Bananaskin1]

Great video, my favourite expression when I don't understand something is 'explain it to me like I'm a 2 year old'. You achieved that in spades, thanks.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you haha!

[@woodysmodellingdiary]

Thank you for demystifying the issue of adding sockets. Your explanation was very clear and once again a very beneficial few minutes that sees me a little more knowledgeable and less likely to put me and others in danger!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@alanpowell24]

Maybe you should employ an electrician?!

[@anthony1trucker560]

Best comprehensive explanation I've seen. Thanks.

[@colinelliott5629]

The explanation for the ring main system given to me many years ago was that it was used in warships for additional resilience, and then adopted after a methodical review of the wiring for homes. Before that, the radial system was used, with 3 sizes of plug and socket for different ratings. He was a physicist who had served in the navy during the war.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

That’s very interesting, and sounds plausible, thanks for sharing! Thanks for watching!

[@colinelliott5629]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 My curiosity was aroused, so I've just read about the introduction of BS 1363 in 1947. A number of benefits were foreseen, including economy of materials and labour. An expected 30% saving in wiring of ring over radial was indeed one of the reasons, and this was reaffirmed in 1994, despite the enormous changes.

[@bobsmith3291]

Admiral John radial and mr Gary Ring

[@foogod4237]

@@colinelliott5629 What everybody seems to miss about that, though, is that when they were doing those analyses they were not looking at the type of radial circuits we use nowadays. They were actually comparing _shared_ ring circuits to _dedicated_ radial circuits. An awful lot of pre-war electrical wiring had a _single radial running from the box to each appliance._ One circuit had one outlet, and that's it. So if you wanted to wire up five outlets, you were actually running _five radials_ to do it. It was really horribly wasteful. So _of course_ ring circuits would save copper over that way of doing things, because _just about anything_ would save copper over that way of doing things. Exactly the same savings could be claimed for _shared radial circuits_ like we all actually use nowadays, if they'd even bothered to consider them at the time. In fact, shared radial circuits _make better use of copper_ than ring circuits do. As was explained in the video, if you just break a ring into two radials, each with its own breaker, you could actually handle up to 40 amps instead of the 32 amps allowed for a ring (and do it more safely), so the ring configuration is actually _wasting 8 amps of current-carrying capacity_ in the wires, for no real benefit. (I can certainly buy the idea of doing this sort of thing on warships for redundancy, but for buildings it just makes no sense, and never really did.)

[@johnburns4017]

Yes, they came from ships for resilience. They were introduced in the UK in late 1950s when they saw the fuse in the plug enabled rings to be fitted. My mothers house was built in 1954 with the 13A G Type sockets/plugs but with radials. Final rings were not a way to save copper after WW2, although it did help of course. Ring are ingenuous in their simplicity.

[@bradshaw448]

The safe plates at the end of the vid are a great idea, great video overall 🤌

[@gman7692]

Two 13A appliances into a double socket is a bad idea - most are only tested at 20A across both. Washing machines & tumble dryers are a favourite for cooked double sockets.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yep absolutely agree, washing machine and tumble driers need singles. Thanks for watching!

[@craigs6892]

Unless actually take note on the appliance. Meile washer 2200 watt, Grundig dryer ( heat pump) 900 watt . 13 amps both ? Safe or not ?

[@gman7692]

@@craigs6892 That's 13.5A combined, so well under the 20A probable rating of a double socket, therefore safe.

[@craigs6892]

@@gman7692 thanks, I'll leave mine plugged in then. Ain't messing with sockets as cant be arsed attempting, I know not permitting anyway ( dont like changing a car battery never mind with 240v stuff ) . House safe but one day get a rewire done .

[@matthewcollis-long5233]

IMO there is an often overlooked part in the regulations which states that, when designing circuits any known load (so washing machine,tumble dryer, dishwasher, panel heater, water heater etc) should be on its own circuit. Whilst this inevitably increases the size of the consumer unit it removes the need for all socket outlet circuits to be designed for 32A. A 16 or 20A radial socket circuit per floor in an average house with a 32A radial socket circuit for the kitchen and each fixed appliance on its own circuit is the way to go. Rings are an anachronism.

[@hanzon1529]

Glad I discovered this channel as I am finding so much useful advice I have not encountered elsewhere.Thank you.

[@getyerspn]

Sparky here .. strangely a lot of homes here (Ipswich Suffolk) built 1945-1952 ish have 4mm radials for they're sockets .. I've always thought this strange for the 'after the war period'... you'd think that'd be smack in the saving metal period.... Anyway It's nightmare if you try to fit anything other than MK sockets as a lot of cheap sockets have small cable clamps that just won't take 2 4mm conductors...as for the safe zones .. kitchen fitters I'm looking at you ...the amount of diagonal cables ..or times I find sockets/ cooker switches in the combustion zone is uncountable.....nice video for the homeowners dude ..keep it up.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching! Compliments from a professional always appreciated! Were the homes you mentioned wired with aluminium cables?

[@garypautard1069]

Yes as a electrician I completely agree about kitchen fitters, in my experience I have spent hours correcting their wiring. And yes I understand about 4mm cables and MK sockets. In response to Dill-Diyer next question below. during my apprenticeship in the 60s there was a copper shortage and we substituted ring circuit cable with aluminium cable . (plumbers had to use stainless steel pipe). The shortage did not last long though.

[@marksfreeyoutube6159]

Clear and concise , just in a 100yr old house, great heads up on potential problems, a little knowledge when discussing with electrician really helpful with my understanding

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!

[@stevecreighton3352]

Great advice and well presented. If in doubt about a ring main then replace MCB with 20A which is a good precaution in any event as high power is not usual except for kitchens with many appliances in addition to oven and hobs ( separate 6mm T&E ).

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you! And thanks for watching!

[@AlainsIsland]

Here in Malta we used to use ring cables and i always wondered how exactly they save less cable. Really informative thank you

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Interesting, thanks for watching!

[@cassiomx88]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 years gone by, in 1950s especially, intake and fuse board would usually be under the stairs or toward the center of a dwelling. Ring would run around the central parts of the house, then designed to spur off to sockets on outer most points. Doing that would save cable for the most part. I fully agree they are an archaic and fairly daft method to use today! I tend to derate the protective device to 20a to negate the potential problems they pose. Other than kitchens, 20a is quite adequate to serve a substantial part of a home.

[@ShowcaseCreative]

You just prevented me from making a potentially dangerous mistake in my loft. Thank you!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad to hear it! Thanks for watching!

[@treeoflifeenterprises]

for a spur I double the 2.5mm twin and earth so effectively you extend the ring. nice clear presentation. I hadn't come across safeplates before, normally having wires clipped in ducting, but they sound useful.

[@Greebstreebling]

Brilliant well informed information for diy folks. Thanks very much for this. :)

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad it was helpful!

[@MrUtube1978]

Hit that subscribed button purely for this video! 👏🏻 I'm a DIYer and done electrics in the past before getting a friend to sign it off, I knew the basics but you've cemented my knowledge! Thanks

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Welcome aboard!

[@mb-3faze]

It's worth noting that a 32A breaker, for example, doesn't just trip at 32 amps. They have very well defined over-current to time characteristics. This means that the breaker will not trigger until 10 seconds at three times the rated current. Even at double the rated current the breaker could take 100 seconds to hit its thermal trigger.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for the info!

[@sylvester4207]

There are still electromagnetic breakers? they trip within like 100ms

[@chris746568462]

@@sylvester4207 Breakers contain both magnetic and thermal trips.

[@HeronsHoard]

@@sylvester4207 also the magnetic trip component is for short circuit current, which needs to be able to trip high current as quickly as possible. Whereas thermal trip is to protect against overload and can take time depending on the type of breaker

[@jameshansing5396]

this entire section is why people shouldn't do 'electrics.....

[@user-od8ki6tt1j]

Really great advice. Wasn't too familiar with safe plates but now I know. The one thing I would have hoped he really articulated, was never to mess with electrics if you have any doubts at all. There are some real horror shows on YT of wannabe electricians who have caused serious damage. The people in your home, your property and your home is at risk. If in doubt get a qualified person to take a look. Be safe.

[@David-bl1bt]

A very concise & informative video 👍

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad you think so!

[@johnburns4017]

Ring circuits have been widespread in the UK for 75 years. They have been found to be *very safe.* The British G Type fuse-in-plug was to protect appliance flexes, however became an _enabler_ to use final ring circuits. The final ring circuit is ingenious in its simplicity. When used with the British G Type plug the ring is a busbar run around the house with distributed fuses at each appliance. There are many *advantages* to rings: ▪️ Cheapness, as smaller easier to install wires can be used; ▪️ A large number of sockets can be off one cheap to install ring; ▪️ Having the same number of sockets using radials would mean multiple radials and multiple extra breakers at the main panel. Far more cable, expense, labour and hassle; ▪️ The 32A breaker and 13A fuse in the plug ensures safety; ▪️ Portable plug-in appliances on a ring cannot exceed approx 3kW. Some plug-in ovens are on rings; ▪️ Rings usually have a 32A breaker at the main panel - can be a lower value; ▪️ Using push-fit *maintenance free* Wago type connectors to connect up the ring adds safety, as not being screwed connections they do not work loose. The ring's current does not run through the socket terminals (this applies to radials); ▪️ The British plugs enable rings having a _max_ 13A fuse in them - can be as low as a 1A fuse in the plug to suit the appliance and flex/cable. Small flex and appliance? Then a smaller fuse; ▪️ Rings in the UK are limited by square metres of floor space, with no limit to the number of sockets on the ring. 100 square metres of floor space with 2.5mm cable for a 32 amp final ring. The cable can be 4mm, which is advisable in an unbalanced ring drawing high current loads; ▪️Less voltage drop on long cable lengths as voltage comes from two ways; ▪️Two ways for the earth wire back to the main panel, increasing safety levels. Radials are also used in the UK. Rings are not mandatory, but used because they have proved to be generally trouble free and safe. They can be installed using *rule-of-thumb.* These days a ring will be on an RCD, RCBO or AFDD - these now are becoming DP, so safer again. AFDDs are now mandatory in some socket installations and _recommended_ in all installations. AFDDs raise the safety level. If an office wants more socket outlets for extra desk computers. It is a simple matter of extending the existing ring with the extra sockets as the current draw is low. Cheap and easy. If radials are used many radial circuits would be needed, which may mean an extra consumer unit, breakers, wire etc, then far more labour. Some *disadvantages* are: ▪️ Rings are more difficult to fault find. But electricians have no problem once the ring is fully understood. The ring can be split at a socket then tested as two radials; ▪️ Another is that if a number of high current drawing appliances are on one side of the ring, say nearer to the main panel, most of the current draw may be down one cable leg of the ring with the cable rated below the main 32A breaker. An unbalanced ring. 2.5mm cable is rated at 27A max. Although tests have proven the cables do not exceed their current capacity in the vast majority of cases, just an imbalance in distribution of the two cables from the main panel (consumer unit). *Good circuit design will prevent this, negating this* *_disadvantage._* Balanced rings can be installed by daisy chaining to _alternative_ socket outlets on the ring. That is the first appliance will draw from one side of the ring, the second socket will draw from the other side, and so on round-robin. Or use 4mm cable to the point where heavy current drawing appliances are, then 2.5mm for the rest, if it is that troubling for some. Using 4mm cable on one side of a ring and 2.5mm on the other, is still cheaper than a bunch of radial circuits. Overall one ring is superior to a bunch of radials needing their own breakers at the main panel. They are simpler, cheaper, being proven to be safe and worked well over the past 75 years. Using the new AFDDs on rings, which are _recommended_ and mandatory on some installations, gives a *far higher* safety level. You will have to give a very convincing argument against rings. I have not heard of one yet.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you for such an in depth and well thought out comment!

[@johnburns4017]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 A 4mm final ring circuit on an AFDD with Wago connections taking the rings load in the backboxes, and 2.5mm flex to the socket terminals is near bombproof.

[@TPV07]

Interesting, here in Hungary we usually use 1.5 for general sockets (phones chargers, hoover etc) with a 13A mcb, and about 5-10sockets per radial circuits/ 2.5 in kitchens mostly 16A mcb, radial/ hob, washing machine, water heater, towel dryer, oven, all separate circuits. Never seen a ring circuit being used over here

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for sharing!

[@johnburns4017]

Because you do not have the fuse in plug.

[@rosssabah]

Absolutely the best video / explanation covering virtually every aspect - brilliant learning tool, exactly what I needed, in easy to understand DIY language. Thank you so much.

[@mrfarts5176]

He is a genius and just hit you right in the bum with a hotdog!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!

[@leslieturner8260]

I found that very interesting but one thought on safety plates, as most builders and some do it yourself people are now using cordless impact drill drivers you can easily drive a screw through those plates without knowing. cheers Les

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching! I’ve hit one going through plasterboard with a plasterboard screw, with no issues. But i don’t know how it would cope with a big wood screw going through floorboards first then into a joist. Maybe I’ll do a video on them at some point and test it!

[@ChrisTheSparky]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 Hi there is a video out there showing a cut away section of a joist, safeplate and a floorboard and a impact driver makes light work of the safeplate going straight through it like it's not even there!

[@ChrisTheSparky]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 kzbin.infozGqfrbmRGKA?feature=share

[@Farweasel]

People are going to suppose I have some sort of fetish or franchise selling *metal detectors* ... BUT ........... You're right, unless you set an impact driver to the lowest torque (maybe to avoid crushing plasterboard or whatever) yeah, there's every chance it would be through before it registered in your mind you'd hit metal.

[@redf7209]

@@Farweasel I wouldnt rely on metal detectors. They dont always seem to pick up

[@ej3080]

I have a 2.5mm twin and earth cable coming into my garage from the cu inside my house. It feeds 1 double socket and one light switch. Can I add 4 more sockets and one more light switch?

[@andycarr4718]

Great video, keep them coming

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks Andy!

[@oakwoodgroup294]

Great video really helpful as a home owner to understand the basics of how the electrics are actually run. Keep up the great work.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks, will do!

[@alltherestofit8109]

Very useful and well explained, thanks!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you for watching!!

[@roybatty2030]

Great video, thanks. I liked the tip of inserting a fused switch into a lengthy radial circuit to cap the overall current.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!!

[@canisferus]

I am an electrician and your explanation is brilliant. The only thing I would add is that you are allowed to have up to 3 circuit per MCB and that mean you can keep broken ring without adding new MCB as long as you downgrade it to let's say 16 amp. But this shenanigans should be checked by electrician as no dyiers know how to check for Ze and Zs which are crucial for safety in electrical installation.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for the info, and thanks for watching, very appreciated!

[@Farweasel]

CHECK for Ze & Zs My good man - I'm not entirely sure what Ze & Zs *are* 🙄

[@gctelectrical5555]

Ze Zs R1R2 RCD trip times, Insulation resistance testing. All should be done when altering existing circuits as the Minor Works Certificate asks for these details, this is non notifiable works.

[@uksuperrascal]

@@gctelectrical5555 I still have my 1000V hand powered Insulation resistance testing mega meter - a bit of history.

[@IW-tb8wr]

If space is an issue in the consumer unit, then perhaps this would be a compromise - However Regulation 314.4 (BS7671) comes into play - each final circuit SHALL be connected to a separate way in a distribution board.

[@Casshern_Sin]

For a lamen, how do you identify if you have a ring or radial circuit? (For an old 1950s home that has had updates). Im looking to spur an additional single socket on top of a single socket spur.

[@adam6759]

Great video. Got a theoretical question however with regards to unfused spurs off a ring main. If using 4mm which has a rating of 37A clipped direct, from the ring main via a socket or terminal block, why can’t you spur more than one? Using a FCU of 13A protects the 2.5mm you would typically use, but the 32A MCB of the ring main would protect the 4mm spurs of multiple sockets no? Curious to others thoughts really…

[@IW-tb8wr]

Regulation 433.1.204 - BS7671 shows the permitted options for a ring circuit. Your theory is right with 4.0mm it would be able to cope with the load. However, potentially if your connection is at a 1/4 point on the ring circuit then four heaters are plugged into multiple sockets on your 4.0mm spur you could introduce a large load on the 1st leg which leads to an unbalanced load. This will mean potentially 32A is being drawn on the 1st leg (electricity is lazy, it will use the shortest path). By only having one spur to one socket or FCU limits the load to 26A. Same applies to an FCU serving multiple sockets the load is limited to 13A. Balancing a ring circuit should be carried out in say a Kitchen where potential heavy loads are . Although ring circuits are dying a death as are split load consumer units. The preference is going to radial circuits due to the potential faults with rings.

[@adam6759]

Thanks. Yes, but in theory could I not have 4 heaters plugged into the first double socket and double socket spur off the ring in the house, the ring then continuing on for another 14 sockets day? Therefore it will introduce the same conditions as above? Hope this makes sense. Fully agree with your comments too, radial is the way forward especially with high integrity earthing.

[@IW-tb8wr]

@@adam6759 ​@Adam your right you could do that- all the load could be at one end of the ring circuit. 433.1.204 is just a way to reduce the chance a big load as you mentioned+ adding to that section with the 4.0mm radial which would add even more. Which is why the 4.0mm is not permitted. Here is a puzzler - you can't install a radial circuit with 2.5mm from a 32a 60898 to serve one double socket. Max load would be 26A. But you can spur off a 60898 32A to a double socket if it's added to a ring circuit. Questions to the IET

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@elliotwilliams7421]

​@@IW-tb8wr is there a max distance or sqm for spurring off a ring with a 2.5mm?

[@martinhypnosmith3416]

Great information and reassuring, always thinking of myself as a competent DIYer I'm pleased to find my existing understandings fit with your professional explanation.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you! Thanks for watching!

[@saidkhan7155]

Excellent video. Thanks.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you for watching!!

[@squee222]

I'm a canadian and I just find this very interesting. Definitely prefer our code to yours :) Good video. Thanks

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!!

[@grahampayne]

Worth mentioning that most people think a twin socket outlet is made to work with 2x appliances both running at 13amps. The BS that they are made too only requires the socket to be capable of carrying 13amps in total & if you look on the back you will see they are marked as 13amp & not 2x 13amp or 26amp. MK Electric tell me their twin socket outlets have been independently tested & will run at 19amps for a short period without any damage to the socket but if you go any higher thermal damage will start to occur quite rapidly

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yes true, often seen when people have tumble dryers and washing machines in the same socket

[@TheEulerID]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 The secret is continuously rated. The BS standard specifies that it must be possible to draw 20A from a double socket for (I seem to remember) 30 minutes without excessive increase in heating. In practice, it's pretty well indefinite. A washing machine and a tumble drier are not going to each draw 3 kW for extended periods. It's only when the heaters are operating, and both will be thermostatically controlled. Just about the only time 6 kW will be drawn from a double socket is by plugging in a couple of 3kW space heaters into large, cold room. It is very common for circuits to be run overloaded for a period. Often a cooker will, in theory, be able to draw far more power than the nominal rating of the circuit. However, MCBs are deliberately rated on a time curve (normally class B in domestic properties) and they allow for the possibility that a particular combination of grill, hobs and oven(s) might be turned on at the same time and exceed the sustained capacity of the circuit for relatively short periods. As an example, the BELLING Farmhouse 110E Electric Ceramic Range Cooker has an electrical rating of 14.5 kW. That's 63 amperes at 230V yet the manufacturer's instructions are that it can be connected to a 32A circuit. If it just happens that a particular combination means that it draws, say, 45A for 30 seconds before thermostats and so on kick in, then the MCB/RCBO won't trip due to the thermal delay (and fuses act that way naturally). It's just the same with a double socket with a couple of high powered devices. In practice, they aren't likely to be both pulling full load for a very long sustained period. Not that anybody tells the public about this.

[@cassiomx88]

MK used to claim their DSO can handle 19a constant load for as long as you want. May have changed now as MK isn't what is once was!

[@booshallmighty]

Great advice. Never heard of a drip loop but of course that makes perfect sense. Thank you

[@cassiomx88]

Twin and Earth is not rated UV resistant, so ought not to be exposed outdoors. However it takes decades to degrade.

[@johannbraunstein1190]

I am an electrician and I can prove that ring mains should be banned. If one is supposed to test without dismantling a circuit how can one test a ring main. On the standard test one has to reassemble the circuit once the test is complete which means the test one has just done is null and void because there is no proof that one assembled the tested circuit correctly.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Great point!! Thanks for watching

[@patrickcannell2258]

Where I stay, plug circuit is now only 20A. Ring mains are discouraged for the exact reason you mentioned. I hate them. In HV networks, they are common, but very well protected. Any break is picked up. LV, a no go now.

[@malcolmmaclean9380]

I have a friend who lives in Belgium but his street gets 3 phase to each house and I am sure he said they had to have radial not ring but IIRC they were cabled in 4mm

[@deang5622]

That is not a justification for banning the use of ring mains. There are other far better sound reasons for banning them.

[@henrietn]

​@@malcolmmaclean9380 correct. Not everyone gets 3 phase here though, only when requested on neeer buildings. Older houses still have a lot of 3x230v or 3x400v. As far as I know, ring circuits have never been used in Belgium.

[@harmonicresonanceproject]

This was incredibly informative. Thanks!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching!

[@peterdavey2767]

You may have answered a number of issues I have with a number of sockets not working as well, when charging drill battery doesn't charge on some sockets, noticed Fuse Spur, now I understand what this box is WOW

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@vman2kay]

The thing that confuses me about the double spur, is can't you overload the circuit anyway without one? In your diagram you had 3-4 sockets on one radial leg. Maybe I'm missing something?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

A radial circuit is typically on a 20A breaker, whereas as a ring is usually on a 32A breaker

[@vman2kay]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 Gotcha, I now realise the double spur without a fused connection would potentially damage the spur part of the cabling due to the 27A max cable rating (assuming 2.5mm2 T&E). I was basically questioning why the argument for overloading the spur wasn't being made for a radial or ring because you could plug 13A * no of sockets into the circuit, which is way more than they can support but ignored the fact that the circuits have breaker protection, but the specific section of the spur cable doesn't and can be overloaded as it's less than the usual ring breaker limit.

[@harstan7333]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 Having only 2.5 cable and a 20A breaker on a radial circuit rather limits its use with multiple sockets, surely? Wouldn't 4.0 cable and a 32A breaker be more usual, and preferable?

[@peterdavey2767]

Just what I was looking for, I tend to investigate before I add an addition socket, in my garage Thanks

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@rkpatel100]

Working on some electrics now and this has helped, nice clear video! thank you!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad it helped!

[@websurfer1585]

This was very informative, i have learned a few things i didn't give a thought about before thanks.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you for watching! Really appreciated!

[@vaughanbbrean71]

That was great, The origin of the ring circuit was very interesting, I didnt know that, I have in the past spured off an existing socket with more than one double socket and I kinda knew this was dodgy, I like your explanation of why its ok if you fuse it, I will add a fuse in line some time soon

[@olli1068]

I have never seen or heard of ring installations before (living in Germany). Always interesting to see what is regarded "normal" elswhere.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@andypoulding1690]

can i wire a 13amp double or single socket directly into consumer unit . In same cupboard about 300mm below please

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yes, it’s effectively just a spur starting at the CU. I believe you need to be a qualified electrician to open up a consumer unit though, so worth getting professional advice. Thanks for watching!

[@rob5944]

Learning about the history of typical installations was very interesting. Only yesterday another electrician mentioned the UK as having a weird system of wiring, now I know why!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@TotoGuy-Original]

one thing always puzzled me about a right is how do you put 2 sets of cables into the consumer unit i assume they are doubled up into the same breaker?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yes in a ring they are doubled up. Thanks for watching!

[@Nellie-yi1qv]

How do you check if a socket you want to run a apur from is already a spur...? Is it simply that there's no onwards cable? So it would only have a single cable at rhe back?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Good question, with difficulty, you’d need to open up other sockets and use a multi meter with the power off, to determine which cables go where. Thanks for watching!

[@WhatTimeIsIt999]

I have two ceiling rose light in my utility. Can I run a third from one of them and do I just put the twin and earth and match the colours of wire.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yes you can add an additional light to a rose, you’ll need to make sure you join the right cables though, thanks for watching!

[@hazmat5749]

Is it ok to join 2 spurs together to make a loop?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

It’s a bad idea, if they’re on RCBOs or different RCDs you’ll also create an issue with tripping. Thanks for watching!

[@hazmat5749]

No, I meant 2 spurs on the same ring so the ring effectively has 2 paths@@TheDiligentDIYer1759

[@TheBrutalFlan]

i dont understand how a spur off a spur in a ring circuit causing a 52a load is any different to a radial circuit with multiple plugs in a row, are radial circuits rated at say 68a for a 3x double socket run? and is the cable rated appropriately for this, some houses must require massive cables to provide for all the double plug sockets. Am i missing something?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Bigger houses typically have more circuits, so not just the normal 2 up, 2 down. Thanks for watching

[@lucapuzzoli8363]

Thanks buddy . I'm a new learner loved the video. I didn't know about the safety plates. Cool

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad to help!

[@dodoubledragon]

Thank you for the safe plates tip, I'm currently building a game room with a few arcade machines & other beefy electricals to power, I've got 6 double plug sockets all direct to the consumer unit, non are daisy chained, what rated breakers will i need 🤔 thanks in advance

[@shornsparks20005]

Thank you for your video, could you please clarify on a radial circuit do you not have to have a bigger cable like a 4 mm

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching! A radial on 2.5mm and a 20a MCB is standard, or radial on 4mm and a 32a MCB. You’ll need to consider cable runs and appropriate cable rating, but the numbers I’ve given are most common I find

[@shornsparks20005]

Thanks very much

[@cassiomx88]

depends on circuit length and if run through insulation. Maximum permitted Zs values are lower for a 32a than a 20a. Calculating everything by the equation in the book and having to refer to various tables and derating factors etc is a bit of a faff!!

[@Alexs-DIY]

What the difference between running the 2 more double sockets or use extension and plug in kitchen equipment

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

An extension lead is fused

[@Alexs-DIY]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 I am going to put 2 extra double socks in commercial kitchen.I think I better use RCD sockets for safety

[@darrenmurphy6251]

when i run a spur i always use 2 runs of 2.5mm to a single double patress (and connect both in parrallel ) that way i have cable ready to go if i need to add extra sockets later i can convert my doubled spur into an extension of the ring, just by reconnecting one cable as the return of the ring how ever i have always wondered what method of joining cable ends together when you need to return the ring in or behind a patress ,are 3 individual 2way wagos acceptable? ive used those 20a round 3 way junction boxes but you only have room for those in loft space or under floor boards ,not in a wall

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

In theory i think a 3 way wago is okay, as you’re spurring off the ring. However i think it best practice to spur from a socket. Thanks for watching!

[@mrdan2898]

Interesting. I thought the UK stopped using ring circuits due to possible over current situation.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Not yet as far as I’m aware, it is often discussed though. Thanks for watching!

[@mattemtee]

Can you spur off two double sockets in a circuit? So two spurs but not daisy chained?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

I don’t think it’s allowed, but I also can’t see why it would be an issue, other than the difficulty of getting 4 x 2.5m2 cores in each terminal and fitting it all in the back box. Best to take them off on a fused spur and do as many sockets as you need. Thanks for watching!

[@JB-yl1lo]

You can run multiple spurs in the same ring (unfused) as long at they’re all off of separate sockets. Similarly to how you can have an unlimited number of sockets in a ring main (within reason).

[@brianjonesg8aso403]

Thanks for the info, especially the safe plates which I have never seen before. I know there are none of these anywhere in my house, at the moment!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@kushalvijay6087]

Hi, I'd like some help for a light installation that I want to do. I want to install a light that is very close to my consumer unit and there are no sockets nearby where I could take a 3A FCU spur out of. Currently from my consumer unit, there is a spur out of my immersion circuit breaker to a single socket which my wifi router is plugged into. My question is could I take a supply from this socket to a 3A FCU which I will connect next to this socket for which I could power the lights I want to install? Thanks in advance.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

You shouldn’t take a spur off a spur, although if the immersion heater has its own MCB, then it wouldn’t be a spur, you’d be extending a radial. So as long as the cable is appropriately rated, it sounds okay. Thanks for watching!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Or are you saying there is a spur straight out of the MCB for your wifi socket? So you’ve basically got two radials out of one MCB? If you can appropriately size the cable, probably still okay, but difficult to say without seeing it

[@drcl7429]

You could convert a ring to 2 radials easily. Do you think it would really be better?

[@Ngozika-ye9nq]

Excellent video. Thank you so much for being clear and concise. No faffing about.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you, very appreciated!

[@midinotes]

Excellent video, great explanation although these days it boils down to the consumer plugging multiway extension sockets into wall sockets. Appreciate though any good extension will be fused, not always the case though for the older style 2 or 3 way adapters. As you say though most modern devices these days are very low current. As long as you aren’t plugging several fan heaters in and around the home…..

[@jameslawrie3082]

Very clearly and simply explained. 👍🏻

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you! Thanks for watching!

[@johnriggs4929]

A few years ago, I went to a house to re-site a fitted wardrobe from one room to another. On pulling out the drawer unit, I came across a double socket box with both sides of the ring exposed - the socket had been removed to allow the drawer unit to fitback to the wall. No insulation tape; no strip connectors - nothing, just the exposed line, nuetral and earth hanging there. The ring was effectively broken, and had any of those conductors touched, any electrician would have had an impossible job, tracking down the fault. And all for the want of a trip to the nearest DIY store... and this was a 'proffesional' fitted furniture installer.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

That’s terrible! Thanks for watching!

[@robbieelmes6780]

How many sockets are allowable on a ring main? ( excluding fixed appliances such as wash mc, dryer, dish washer etc)

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

I don’t think there is a limit, I think it is professional judgment. Worth getting a qualified professional in if you’re in doubt. Thanks for watching!

[@roberthuntley1090]

I seem to remember (about 12 months ago?) that the restriction on loads connected to the lighting circuit had been watered down a bit in an update to the wiring Regs. Something like changing from a complete ban to "a suitable low load"? A KZbin from John Ward (Flameport electrics) mentioned it. In my case, I needed to supply a 1 watt TV aerial distributor in the loft so have fed a 13 amp socket via a 1 amp fuse in a FCU from the lighting circuit (to me, that satisfies the spirit of the rules).

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

I’ll take a look, thank you!

[@martinlewis1015]

As an electrician for 30+ years I still prefer ring circuits but not 2.5m. But 4mm

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

4mm rings is heavy duty for domestic! Thanks for watching!

[@martinlewis1015]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 but 2.5mm has a limit of 100M'2. I had to do a house where down stairs was hard floor so only route was upstairs down plus one part was unreachable for rewire so had to link via junction box's, so to cope with load on that circuit 4mm was only choice.

[@NewGameTag]

Thank you. Very well explained.

[@johnburns4017]

Many clearly do not understand what a final ring circuit is and how it came about. The ultimate design is to have a radial to _each socket outlet_ on its own fuse at the Consumer Unit - the optimum solution of course. One fuse at the Consumer Unit for each socket. This means you will need a _gigantic_ consumer unit and lots of fuses/breakers (one for each socket) in the consumer unit, and an amazing amount of cable. 🎊🎈 *BINGO* 🎊🎈 *A final ring circuit gives this by distributing the consumer unit around the house via a ring cable,* having a fuse on each socket outlet. The ring cable is a fused *busbar.* This saves the vast expense of a plethora of radial cables back to the main panel and also a plethora of fuses at a _gigantic_ consumer unit. Simple, ingenious and highly effective.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@ianhaylock7409]

5:07 How can you pull up to 52A if the breaker is 32A?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

I said you could in theory plug in appliances rated to a total of 52A

[@jameshansing5396]

when does a 32A breaker trip? Let's say a B32? or a C32?

[@bradyneil]

is plugging in an extension cable not essentially taking a spur of a socket and nothing to stop anyone plugging in multiple extension cables. and ive seen ones with like 10 outlets on them

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Not quite, an extension lead would be like a fused spur, as the plug has a fuse in it. So no chance of overloading cables, as you’re capped at 13 A

[@grapes008]

OK, I have a spur from one double socket. Idealy i would like to be able to run another spur from the orignal socket. My understanding is that providing i can get the wires in it whould be OK as long as the total number of spurs do not exceed the number of sockets. I may be able to extend the ring to the socket that is already a spur thusly removing this issue, but I am not sure if that going to be possible as I am not 100% on the cable run.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yep that sounds okay, i think you’ll struggle getting 4 cores in the terminals though. Thanks for watching!

[@terryhollis4132]

You have a great talent for this. Perfect explanation. Thank you.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

You're very welcome! Thank you

[@Rx4Lyfe]

Ring circuits are extremelly rare in my country..not even sure were legal in the first place...most likely error in previous sparkies electrical work. I had one by default where a doorway in a wall between kitchen and laundry had been deleted in the past & I was called to upgrade lighting in laundry. The light switch feeds on either side of old door jam were joined together as one for laundry circuit lights but they were in fact 2 separate fed circuits from the board on their own fuses. Took some headscratching to figure out why pulling each light fuse separate 1 by 1 not isolate the lights even went to isolate singley 1 by 1 every other fuse in board.. but turn off main switch only way to isolate..learning new stuff every day me.🙂

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Interesting to hear! Thanks for sharing and thanks for watching!

[@justincodrea6850]

Hi there any chance for advice, I want to put a socket in the attic on an 6mm power shower circuit. Can I ad 13 amp spur fuse and then after fuse 2.5 mm cable and a socket? Please advise. Thank you. I enjoyed your posts

[@Han_80]

Explained everything so clearly. Subscribed and will check out your other vids. Great work!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Awesome, thank you!

[@RobinHow]

Great video - really clear, well illustrated and not overly wordy. Thank you.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching!

[@Asgardsteve1]

From personal experience I rarely come across ring circuits now, though I do still find sockets wired in with 1.5mm Cable instead of 2.5mm

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Yeah i think rings are becoming old hat now. Thanks for watching!

[@andyc9619]

The reason you see it is that it is permitted under the regulations, as long as it's a spur protected by a FCU. 2.5mm cable is always required on the ring circuit as it needs the extra load capacity in case of a breakage or loose connection (resulting in 2 paths on the ring reducing to 1, which theoretically doubles the load on the existing cabling), but on a spur with a 13 amp FCU 1.5mm cable (rated at 16-16.5 amps) is acceptable as it doesn't exceed the load requirements.

[@IDraganM]

Excellent information, I fail to understand why any breaker would ever allow current high enough to damage wiring…I thought it is their job to protect it, regardless of how many extensions people make.What am I missing?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

That’s the exact problem with rings. Thanks for watching!

[@richarddunn504]

One of the best explanations I’ve seen👍 surely plugging a 4 gang plug extension on a double spur has a risk of overload also?

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you! A 4 gang extension lead will have a 13A fuse in, so won’t cause you any problems

[@cassiomx88]

@@TheDiligentDIYer1759 Seem to often contain 10a in the cheaper ones these days. Depends on the length of flex. A 13a fuse can draw around 15a for a very long time before it fails. I've seen quite a few multi-gang extension leads melt before the fuse decided to pop. The time curve charts for various fuse/mcb types in regs book are quite disturbing when you look at worst case scenarios! brass terminals in plug-tops are fairly poor these days unless you buy more expensive ones

[@Ocean-blue]

Subscribed. Fantastic content clearly delivered. Brilliant.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Much appreciated!

[@ChrisMahtal]

This saved me a lot of time, thank you!

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Glad it helped! Thanks for watching!

[@mazdaman1286]

Very useful video, but my OLED tv only draws 85 watts according to my power meter and my fridge freezer very little more . My Dishwasher has a hot feed and the washer is set to cold wash . Lighting is LED's. so the only large consumers of power are the shower 8KW (4KW Eco setting) , the oven 3KW and the induction hob 5/6 KW ? These all have dedicated circuits , so are rings really out dated , and should be replaced with individual circuits.? I can foresee that soon power requirements on outlets will be even lower.

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you! Yes i think rings are outdated, but it seems a controversial opinion! Thanks for watching!

[@raywalsh5414]

I learnt quite a few things from that, thanks !

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thank you, really appreciate that!

[@fgfgdfgfgf]

I've gone through all this mistake thinking. I'm smart enough not to do them though and at least educate myself through videos. So no harm done yet. Huge thanks

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@Wiltshire-observer]

Good basic explanation of domestic wiring. Newer houses tend to have enough sockets now, so far less likely that you would need to add more or interfere with what has been installed. However, older homes, particularly 50’s/‘60’s/70’s were barely provided for in today’s energy thirsty world. So that’s where the risks start when DIYers get involved. Many are fairly competent to add small modifications, but from my experience non-competent ones are the real risk. Sockets changed with new “USB” integral chargers is the latest risk, because those who don’t really have the necessary knowledge or good working practice can leave the terminals loose or incorrectly wired. My current home had a nightmare of half finished, wrongly completed wiring work, some of it live to the touch if you put your fingers in the wrong place. As they used to say “a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing”…

[@TheDiligentDIYer1759]

Thanks for watching!

[@crcomments8509]

Those new sockets with integral USB chargers are a risk in their own right, never mind the installation.

[@johnburns4017]

The worst electrical work I have seen has been done by people charging for it - general handymen, general builders, etc. I have seen some excellent DIY work for sure. Some do their research well.

[@a.karley4672]

@@crcomments8509 How so? As I understand it, they're effectively triple sockets (or socket-count+!) with the additional socket driving the AC-2-DC converter. I'd see them as more threatening to the USB device (fail to putting mains into USB) than threatening to the premises overall. A couple of years ago I was talking to a Youth Hostel warden (i.e. commercial & residential work) where all the double-sockets (about 120) had been replaced with double+2*USB. I asked about the failure rate, and in a year, he'd not had one complaint of either a USB not giving charge, or a device being fried by the USB. Your assertion would imply the failure rate is higher.

[@christopherleach1443]

I am not sure that power consumption has definitely increased - when one considers old televisions, electric heaters, cookers etc. I don’t have a garden, just a little used balcony, nor electric vehicles so maybe my view is distorted. Yes we have computers. We wash more both clothes and dishes. And some devices such as dryers But we have LED lights, microwaves etc. What has increased is the requirement for more sockets, better distributed around the place. The days of a single socket for a single room are behind us. Extension cables can be their own source of danger. So more the number and location than the total power?