Starship Troopers ~ Lost in Adaptation

[@bethanymcmurtrey9542]

Power Rangers is infamous for sharing costumes and props among itself, but it's extra funny when it shares costumes with a big budget action movie.

[@gimzod76]

As well as fifefly and half a dozen over films

[@jamesatkinsonja]

Lost Galaxy

[@_GeneralMechanics_]

I mentioned that too. They even showed up in the Gundam movie "G-Saviour."

[@dyansis]

The armour and guns (and micheal Ironside) were reused for command and conquer tiberium war cinematics

[@shmee123ful]

that was power ranger lost galaexy if im not mistaken

[@Matrim42]

The “apes” thing wasn’t just because of the power armor. The first chapter of the book opens with the exact quote “Come on, you apes! You want to live forever?” attributed to an unknown platoon sergeant in 1918. It’s a military thing, not the armor’s appearance.

[@thatguy22441]

It's military leaders communicating by saying insults they don't really mean. Soldiers, and men in general, are like that.

[@IIBloodXLustII]

Supposedly that was yelled by Daniel Daly at the Battle of Belleu Wood, which is one of the most important moments in Marine Corp lore.

[@bud389]

It also has a dual meaning; it's rhetorical in that it's asking them "What, you want to live forever? Nobody does, so let's sacrifice now!" While also hinting at the supposed glory of the afterlife, where giving your life for a good cause will sanction you into paradise eternal.

[@chheinrich8486]

No that was fucking frederick the great, king of prussia 😅

[@VTimmoni]

​@@chheinrich8486In all likelihood Daly was quoting Frederick the great though possibly inadvertently.

[@rabnerd28]

I love that Red stays her cartoon self in her little cameo. It's very important to their internal lore/branding.

[@doodlebrain6594]

Me too

[@garethspotfur1]

thats because red is not a real person. she is a cartoon that has a human actor pose as her. 🥸

[@NinjaMan47]

It is fascinating how radically different the Mobile Infantry are in the book and movies. The film potrays the MI as light infantry using human wave tactics; the book has elite power-armored soldiers. The reason in the books is obvious: technology has made it so light infantry would get slaughtered or nuked before ever reaching the enemy. It's a military that makes sense for fighting and winning wars. The military in the films comes off as bloated with too many soldiers and a heavy reliance of human wave tactics. It appears almost like a peacetime military that has grown out of control without any real pressure to change (i.e. no wars). It was not designed to win wars, it was a military designed to drill discipline and to do so en mass.

[@fredbloggs5902]

The book also makes the point that the aim of their mission is to demonstrate what they COULD do, while inflicting as few casualties as possible.

[@NeroCM]

Fun comparison for Warhammer40K fans: the book portrays the Space Marines, while the movie portrays the Imperial Guard.

[@18nakedcowboys69]

@@NeroCModdly enough both fans of these serious have fascists in them loool.

[@nick0875]

When are militaries portrayed like actual functioning units in films?

[@nick0875]

​@@NeroCMYet somehow the Imperium hasn't collapsed due to massive depopulation. Even more so they were able to maintain a sort of status quo with the other galactic powers for millennia until GW decided to move the timeline forward.

[@galenwilds3273]

The bit where Johnny's friend gets kicked out for slugging his CO in the book also makes it very clear that the CO didn't want that to happen. When the CO reports him to his superior officer for disobeying orders both parties very conspicuously ignore the CO's black eye. It's not until the friend flat-out says he slugged the guy that the others roll their eyes and go "damnit, now we have to address this and can't just let him off with a warning. Also, it's mentioned that more than one or two Mobile Infantry per square mile is consider dangerously overpopulated. The act that gets johnny his lashes is firing a mini-nuke during a training simulation that would have vaporized one of his mates if it had been real.

[@jfangm]

I can forgive the deviations from the story. In my opinion, they amount to a more cinematic story and create dramatic tension. They also serve to contrast Rico and Ibanez's training and differing views of their service.

[@thatguy22441]

I read the book when I was in Basic Training at Ft. Benning. It definitely gave me a new perspective on things. Couple that with graduating Basic and being considered a "combat" soldier (in a combat arms MOS such as infantry, armor, cavalry, artillery, etc., as opposed to a "support" soldier) and you have a very different view of things.

[@rmsgrey]

Not only do they try to avoid bringing up the black eye, they also empanel a field court martial that is not empowered to impose worse than a lashing and a dishonourable discharge rather than a full court martial that would be required to impose the death penalty.

[@alexanderrahl7034]

​@jfangm I can't forgive the deviations in the slightest. Verhoeven read two chapters of the book and tossed it out calling it "sad and depressing" and claimed the book as "far right propaganda." Then went on to make the movie a "fascist parody to help people understand what the book was." He deliberately misrepresented the book in the film based on his own political beliefs. The movie was as much a political propaganda film _for_ verhoeven's own politics as it was a satire of fascism. It's taken me years but I finally got around to reading the book, and I haven't been this angry about a miscarriage of facts since I learned about what the allies did to Poland in WW2, and how it was portrayed in history books.

[@loserinasuit7880]

​@@alexanderrahl7034 Do you mean the Danzig affair or the Soviet occupation of Poland post war?

[@westie1209]

So glad Red got a cameo after all the work she's put into exploring Heinlein's deep thoughts

[@pridelander06]

"And now for 'Deep Thoughts with Heinlein '"

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

I really hope she does more Heinlein at some point. Better yet, it would be hilarious if she did an Ender's Game video just to spite Card!

[@marocat4749]

​​@@pridelander06Sexuality should be free and without limits. Unless of course its gay Tune in to next time to " deep thoughts with heimlein, waterbrothers.

[@Destroyer2150]

@@pridelander06 It feels like yesterday that I watched that video. It was pure comedy gold

[@jordenhynes767]

We love deep thoughts with Heinlein

[@legionairesunny5507]

Its funny how much of a 'stress relief' movie this is for my Mom. She loves making fun of the characters, and just thinks its a blast.

[@scarlettterry]

I always thought it was pretty funny The ending of the third one is really funny I think "remember religion is good, peace is bad"

[@zephyr8072]

@@scarlettterry I think it's more a message that fascists will use anything to maintain and improve their power if it's convenient, even if it's something they've decried as antithetical to their movement before.

[@scarlettterry]

@@zephyr8072yeah I got that that's what makes it funny

[@KireiC]

I legit didn't get how damn FUNNY the movie was until decades after first seeing it in theaters as a teen. I always loved the nutso propaganda reel bits, but when I was younger I don't think I had a good measuring stick for how over-the-top everything *else* in the movie was. Now though? Wow. It's just so bananas. And still very entertaining in its way!

[@GoneFishingAmalgam]

When I read 'stress relief' movie I was worried, glad it seems like innocent fun.

[@BlueScarabGuy]

Heinlein's complicated politics remind me a bit of Fred Wertham, the psychiatrist who famously wrote the book on how comic books were corrupting the minds of the youth into delinquency...but who also helped end segregation by testifying during Brown v Board of Education that it was better for the psychological development of children to interact with people of different races and backgrounds.

[@maxthepaladin2147]

Goes to show that few things in life and black and white. Especially when it comes to internal goings-on of different people

[@Takeshi357]

If I remember correctly, he wanted comic books to have age ratings similar to movies, not to have explicit content outright banned.

[@jonahulichny9874]

@@Takeshi357 that… actually makes sense. Like don’t get me wrong saying a comic book corrupts young minds is stupid, but having an age rating system so a 1st grader doesn’t stumble across “the boys” is a good idea.

[@DR3ADER1]

They weren't that complex. Heinlein was a lifelong Libertarian/Conservative hybrid. He was NEVER A FASCIST! In his own words when interviewed by Edward R. Murrow (the greatest Journalist to have EVER LIVED, also known as the Man who killed McCarthyism dead in its tracks by asking questions and being a critical thinker) "I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime. Yet for every criminal, there are ten thousand honest, decent, kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up. Business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news. It is buried in the obituaries, but it is a force stronger than crime." This was in 1952, during Robert's "Conservative turn". Note the lack of judgment and sensationalism. This is very matter-of-fact, and facts are sacred. And of Race said this: "And finally, I believe in my whole race-yellow, white, black, red, brown-in the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability, and goodness of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being." Very fascist, much Hitler-lover. LOL, get your history checked.

You my fellow, are a saint ​@@DR3ADER1

[@cerberus144]

I had two uncles who worked on this movie. My uncle David who was a Hollywood Model Maker guy (Other credits include Air Force One, Alien 3, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and the original Star Wars), and my Uncle Jay, who was just a Carpenter from Wyoming who helped build sets on location there.

[@alexandresobreiramartins9461]

Cool!

[@SamAronow]

I also have an uncle David and an uncle Jay...but they are not that cool.

[@PaintSplashProductions]

You’ve got a pretty cool family

[@_GeneralMechanics_]

Now that is a story I would like to know more!

[@choronos]

The models in Starship Troopers are amazing. He did fantastic work.

[@transformer03]

Dom's genuine laughter of "There are worse reasons to get back together" bit was legit funny.

[@hjalfi]

RLM has a good review of the film where they point out that this is, in fact, the _bad_ ending for the romance. Both of them want somebody else. It ties in perfectly with the rest of the film...

[@Crazael]

26:35 Fun Fact: In the book, Zim and the other instructors spend a bunch of time trying to get Rico to allow them to take some of the fault and thus a lesser punishment, but he keeps insisting that it was his fault and so they end up having to whip him, despite no one involved wanting to do it.

[@mrbloodmuffins]

That wasn't Rico who was being punished for that but instead Tim Hendrick. Zim didnt mention Hendrick punching him and out of anger at the (lesser) punishment he had gotten, Hendrick blurted out that he punched Zim in the presence of an officer and witnesses so a court martial had to be convened. When Rico made his mistake, he didn't say anything unless asked to and accepted the corporal punishment of 5 lashes.

[@TheOnlyPedroGameplays]

Wow your channel is a time capsule

[@jamesatkinsonja]

@@mrbloodmuffins If I recall Zim also tells him his old teacher would be ashamed of him for what he did which cuts him deeply, hence why he accepts the corporal punishment.

[@Jutrzen]

Nothing fun about that.

[@Crazael]

@@Jutrzen its fun because it adds nuance to the characters and lets them be closer to real people and not cariactures.

[@Okada_Caelun]

If you need visuals of what the power armor could look like... there WAS a Japanese Anime adaptation of Starship Troopers as well.

[@jmfowler9062]

Which was nothing like what the book described. The Japanese production was an adaptation of the western cgi show "roughnecks"

[@ManOutofTime913]

​@@jmfowler9062The Starship Troopers OVA was from the 80s. Roughnecks was 90s. The OVA in question was also terrible and the only reason to watch it is for the soundtrack of hilariously bad English songs sung by people who don't know English and very cheesy 80s synth.

[@335chr]

@@jmfowler9062 thats impossible the anime was make close to 12 years before the roughnecks show

[@Takeshi357]

@@ManOutofTime913What about the OVA makes it so terrible?

[@ManOutofTime913]

@@Takeshi357It was ploddingly paced, animated pretty poorly, and makes about as many changes to the book as the film does. Irrc the training is even softer in the OVA than the film. Plus, a lot of the book is Rico's diatribes about the society of the world he lives in, descriptions of technology, or the lessons learned from those above him. That's pretty much all cut as well. The one thing I will say in its favor aside from the hilariously bad soundtrack is that the design of the bugs was pretty interesting. It came out before the movie cemented what they're supposed to look like, so they're like these weird bipedal tentacle monster things.

[@sampew1605]

Heinlein was an interesting man. It's crazy remembering thinking he was super pro-military then reading some of his books and learning how much he wanted clothing to be optional.

[@emilyrln]

I mean, technically clothing _is_ optional… but being arrested for public indecency isn't 😂

[@jcspoon573]

Pro-military? He was quite anti-Marine. Note that the infantry in the book: Launch from Navy vessels, perform quick strike attacks before withdrawing back to Navy vessels, and that he includes a chapter start quote from "An unknown Platoon Sergeant" that is most often attributed to Marine hero Dan Daly. And that force is called "The Mobile Infantry", NOT Marines. Also, there are hints within the book that you're in unreliable narrator territory when Rico thinks about how the bugs work in a communist system, and until capturing the brain bug, the bugs are winning.

[@squeaknsqurriel7060]

​@@jcspoon573 I think you have to be pro military to start with to have those sorts of inside baseball themes though. Like dunking on spesific branches of the military tends to be almost exclusively something that happens in military communities/ pro military circles

[@jcspoon573]

@@squeaknsqurriel7060 That's a fair point. The tough part for me is sticking to the in book and well-documented instances when I want to refer to the anecdotal issue of meeting Heinlein's grand-niece when she was in the Air Force (all the Marines recognized her name), was keeping a low profile (the Air Force didn't realize who she was), and then the Marine that dated her (because of course) found a picture of her family reunion and Heinlein was in it (the veritable black sheep of the otherwise upper middle class family). Though, we never really could prove it was her in the picture as she was in middle school in the picture and quite a bit younger at the time. She claimed he said some rather anti-military stuff, didn't like "Starship Troopers" (wrote it to be published, foot in the door type of thing), but this isn't verified, was when he was quite old/older, and is only backed up by his overall libertarianism.

[@denelian116]

​@@jcspoon573he himself said he wrote it because he was in a perpetual sort of contract with a specific publisher that he wanted out of - they had the right of first refusal of ANY book he wrote, though once they refused a book it was over. That published was VERY anti-military and anti-war, so he wrote the most jingoistic thing he could. That was his story in an essay from the 60s, so.

[@benwasserman8223]

Let's be real: the "Would you like to know more" joke really predicted our current KZbin algorithm. Like eerily so.

[@Corgifan2]

Verhoven does that robocop predicted usb drives, zoom and Detroit being a shithole

[@zephyr8072]

I think it's pretty funny that in Starship Troopers by making the navy mostly female, Heinlein basically invented the concept of bridge bunnies. Which means all space anime ever owes him a debt.

[@tskmaster3837]

This comment made my mind go down a full rabbit hole of things anime took from Heinlein, thanks. I think it'd be easier to say anime brought tentacles to Heinlein.

[@vadalia3860]

As someone who read this book as a teen girl, literally the only thing I remember was something akin to "Most of our pilots are women, which is a good thing because when you deprive a man of female contact for months on end, he'll give 120% if he hears the pilot's sexy lady voice wish him good luck as he's launched from the ship" I felt very conflicted about it. Like "thanks... I hate it."

[@callisto8413]

There was anime based on the book...but the aliens, if I remember right, look nothing like the aliens in the book.

[@emancoy]

​@@callisto8413 no brutal training, no gritty aliens getting the upper hand, humans pretty much dominated

[@kingofhearts3185]

​@@callisto8413 what's it called?

[@exhistoriascientia]

I recall reading back when the film came out that the reason the soldier bugs all have only four legs was because it was easier for the CGI animators to only have four legs rather than six to deal with. Movement with six legs is far more complex and by removing two legs, they virtually halved the amount of work they had to do. I think the article was in Starlog but I may be mistaken about that. It's been a quarter of a century since I read the article.

[@Betrix5060]

Aren't they more mantis like? So they have six limbs but only four are for locomotion.

[@lucasalce6010]

they're called Arachnids though, I guess they should be spider-like then, 8 legs.

[@Betrix5060]

@@lucasalce6010 The warriors seem to have four legs, two arms, and then another pair of more vestigial limbs. So that comes out to 8.

[@theamazingbatboy]

I know this is obviously the real-world reason, but thankfully Verhoeven's piss-take approach makes my headcannon that it was a propaganda buzzword for science illiterate yahoos very easy to believe. 'Arachnid' is inherently scarier for the audience back home than, bug.

[@ethal1222]

Fun fact: The soldier bugs in the movie were a slightly altered version of the original but unused design for the second stage of the Graboid lifecycle in Tremors 2. You can definitely see it looking at the mandibles of both creatures.

[@davidmclean357]

another fun fact: Starship troopers was actually a 1947 serial and only became a novel later.

[@DYNB]

That really is a fun fact. Thnx!

[@jfangm]

I actually find the warrior bugs kind of cute. I would LOVE to have a chibi-style plushie of one.

[@BreezyStreamy]

I was totally getting Graboid!

[@josesosa3337]

​​@@jfangmI find the locusts from gears of war adorable. I vant find myself to be afraid of them. They're just fighting for their queen.

[@Arrowdodger]

The influence of Starship Troopers' power armor does definitely extend far, given it's also a major influence on Mobile Suit Gundam, which in turn obviously influenced a great many things, as well. It's a rare treat to be able to so easily see a work's ripple effect through genres.

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

Gundam and 40K are influenced by Starship Troopers.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Ironically, Mobile Suit Gundam has the opposite view on the military and warfare. Which is why it became an influential classic in its own right.

[@kyleigh3299]

Hey, isn't the Gundam genre/trope how GI Joe got turned into robot guys for the Japanese market which eventually got shipped back to the US and became Transformers?

[@MrFelblood]

Yeah, even by way of aversion the Star Ship Troopers movie spawned it's own distinctive styles that rippled through popular culture and converged in interesting ways. Looking at your Imperial Guard fighting beside Space Marines, and book inspired Terran Marines fighting against the movie inspired Zerg swarm. None of that excuses Star Citizen for knocking off the political system from the book with none of the nuance of Heinlein. Nothing that happens in the United Earth Empire makes sense in the context of their system of government. Every planet is just a parody of a different cult of personality from history, with no regard for how it fits into the larger universe. It's just a mashup of different ideas with no cohesive vision. It's nice for creating worlds that have unique flavors, but they never feel like they should be in the same galaxy, let alone a 20 minute flight away from each other. Planet MicroTechis just the joke, "What if Steve Jobs bought Hoth to save on server cooling costs, and then built Silicon Valley inside a mall the size of a city, so it could have Apple Stores?" Somehow, this is still the most believable culture in the universe. At least the idea that Microtech fosters a culture of valuing education over military service explains why the people it wants to attract (highly educated innovators, regardless of wether they are Residents or Citizens) have a reason to go there and stay there. There is no reason for any Resident to stay on Huston. Their whole exploitive, propaganda state vibe doesn't make any sense in a galaxy with a free press and open lines of communication with the world outside. With the UEE actively recruiting soldiers and pilots from the system, the whole planet makes no sense. If they want to risk their lives for a better future, they can do two years in the UEE Navy and become a Citizen, and get free health insurance for life to boot. Yeah, fighting alien armadas isn't safe, but it has *never* been more than 0 days since the last accident at any Hurston facility, and residents are apparently happy to YOLO charge armored stormtroopers with a pistol and a ski mask for cigarette money. Like, I get that Citizens are Players and Residents are NPCs, and that's why the residents don't immediately quit their horrible, dangerous jobs and become citizens, but I'd like some kind of in-universe justification beyond, "Something something propaganda, I guess."

[@whathell6t]

@@kyleigh3299 Nope! That’s Mario Bros. Not a joke. It started from 20 year of Nintendo’s negotiation on Paramount to use Popeye in their games in the 1960s.

[@meanmanturbo]

One historical detail that was current at the time that most people will miss now days is the knife throwing scene in the book, where they talk about why would you need to know about knife in a world with nuclear weapon. In the 50s there was actually a pretty strong belief in the US military that the only things the US military would need for fututre wars was air craft and nukes, and that the army and thing like indantry was more or less obsolete. That scene in the book is basically refuting that idea.

[@wjzav1971]

I would like to say funny, but it really isn't so I say not funny enough how you see infantry still being a necessity in war, even in the year 2023.

[@anthonyanderson5302]

There will always be a need for infantry. You can take, bombard, destroy with the other services(artillery, tanks, fighters, bombers, etc) but you can't hold ground with them. You will always need some poor dumb b*stard with nothing more than a rifle(or future equivalent to do it.

[@alexanderdaviescastle8134]

Oh yeah? Two nuclear countries go to war, do they really need anything other than nukes?

[@meanmanturbo]

@@alexanderdaviescastle8134 One big point was that there are alot of times when you want to use something smaller then a nuke. Like if a friendly nation was couped by your enemy (say in South America..,1950s, remember) would responding with nukes and starting global nuclear war over it be worht it? Beacause it's either that or doing nothing if all you have is nukes. Now if you had something like marines to send for a little correction, now that would be now you have options. Again, if all you have is nukes or nothing, there is a lot of things other players can do to you where nukes are not worth it and you have no other response.

[@Chetverikov]

Well, again, the scene in the book is a stepping off point for a philosophical discussion: Zim asks the recruit if he'd strike a child with an axe because it did something wrong. The recruit replies, horrified, that of course he wouldn't. Zim agrees, and notes that war is the same: There are times when hitting the enemy with a nuke would be just as horrific an overreaction treating that misbehaving child to an axe. Because at its heart, war is not JUST killing to kill because Enemy Bad. It's controlled and focused violence for the purpose of getting the other side to do what you want them to do, as defined by your political leadership. A roundabout restatement of the famous bit from Clausewitz, that "war is not merely a political act but a real political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse, a carrying out of the same by other means".

[@thisfoolplaysgames2847]

Starship troopers breakdowns tell you so much about the person doing it.

[@therobustempyrean1436]

Agreed. Not only indicates their reading comprehension, but also their views on basic things like voting rights, and whether or not a society should defend itself if it means destroying another group.

[@charlesreid9337]

​@@therobustempyrean1436the vast majority of people don't have the education or intellectual ability to understand the philosophy behind voting. Including most of our pundits and self-appointed philosophers and politicians. The corec ideas behind democracy are that some rights are inate and that we are all equal. We can only be governed by those we choose to govern us, morally. Every other philosophy of government is based on the concept of power giving you the right to govern. All of them.

[@KarlSnarks]

​@@charlesreid9337 Not exactly. Even if you consider all justifications for top-down unaccountable rule "power giving you the right" (which yeah fine), there's also philosophies that don't fall into either catagory. Namely forms of democracy that reject the idea that representatives actually represent their constituents (direct, participatory, and consensus democracy), and those that reject authority/hierarchy entirely in favor of free association and cooperation (anarchism).

[@MercuryCold]

​@@KarlSnarksword salad

[@Jutrzen]

@@charlesreid9337 Democracy in ancient Greece, was based on the fact, that people are not, and shouldn't be, equal.

[@nip3004]

To be fair it wasn't just his female characters that were underwritten. The vast majority of his characters were. His work was far more interested in the worlds

[@elevown]

This is true- but i will add its something shared by MANY scif-fi authors - in fact i'd say its the norm. Especially in that era. Its rare a scifi book focuses on its characters.

[@nip3004]

@@elevown almost like the fictional science is what people are writing/ reading for or something lol

[@adamuffoletto7869]

The SECOND you mentioned Heinlein my mind went to Red's Classics Summarized on Stranger in a Strange Land. I'm SO HAPPY she popped in for a cameo!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

"Fascists are famously impotent" - Dom 2023 As soon as you announced that you were going to do a LiA do-over I knew that it was going to be this one, but I never could've anticipated Red's very welcomed cameo. Also, if we ever get another adaptation of this it could be pretty cool if it was told from the bugs' perspective as well if it was written by Adrian Tchaikovsky and directed by Guillermo del Toro.

[@Beacuzz]

I recommend starkids musicals one of them is a parody of it

[@Metal_Maoist]

I mean, Adrian Tchaikovsky already did that, kinda? That's basically just what Day of Ascencion is

[@JuanLeon-oe6xe]

"Fascists are famously impotent" Looks at kakarot with his supposed "peak" muscular blue eyed blonde- male body, as well as his obsesion with "pOw3r". So this is what Shrek meant with "compensating for something".

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Metal_Maoist I'll have to look into that one.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@Beacuzz Thank you, I'll look into it.

[@DeadRabbit86]

My takeaway from the book was Federal Service did not necessarily mean military service. It was essential a test proving that the individual would put the needs of the many ahead of personal needs.

[@anthonyanderson5302]

In the book they test to see what you are physically, mentally, etc capeable of doing it doesn't even have to be military. You could be in the peace corps(or future equivalent, heck it Rico's friend in the books goes on to be a researcher and dies on pluto.

[@drmattbarnes1371]

Yup

[@Betrix5060]

It's weird, Heinlein later said that the vast majority were "civil service" positions but in the book the non-military roles, while present, aren't what we would consider civil service but instead facsimiles of military service invented by a society that requires you serve in the military to become a full citizen, but isn't actually militaristic enough to maintain a standing army constituting even the minority of voluntary enlistees. So they make up shit like testing survival equipment or counting the hairs on a caterpillar by touch. Jobs that serve some role but really are just a way to weed out people who aren't serious about their voluntary service. It's interesting since while it's still more militaristic than some would have you believe, it's also far *less* militaristic than than you'd expect. The vast majority of people don't become citizens, and service is normally only for a period of 2 years, and yet their military is so small that they actually have to invent new quasi-military jobs just so people can execute their constitutional right to serve.

[@johnsmith-de3tl]

@@Betrix5060 they are also open for the handicapped. they would find a job for everyone that wanted.

[@Betrix5060]

@@johnsmith-de3tl Yeah, while you can argue if veterains really should be running the planet you cant argue that the TF doesn't think service, and the responsibilities which come from completing it, aren't a right. They make it clear that unless a doctor determines you are incapable of understanding the oath you **will** be given a job upon request.

[@callisto8413]

We had a debate about Heinlein in a sci-fi class in college. And we all agreed the he seemed to like pushing themes and plots to the extreme. As you pointed out he could write books on two different view points. As if testing his skills. Also he may have liked to push buttons. Almost every book has something that would seem both interesting or offend somebody.

[@travissmith2848]

An emancipated child and her wild rule free antics and mannerisms from "The Lummox" springs to mind. And not quite as eyebrow raising was "Starman Jones" and the navigators having a union so strong as to be an oldschool trade guild where even owning a book of the set of books used for plotting FTL courses was highly illegal.

[@TulilaSalome]

I just remember it annoyed me as a teen when in "Moon is a harsh mistress", the main character and his love interest give a speech to a freeloading kid on how yeeting out freeloading kids who don't pay for air out of the airlock is good and right, and then they DON'T yeet him out of the airlock. He states his point of view that air should be shared, they lecture him a while, he goes 'I see it now! Extreme free capitalism is good, actually!' (wouldn't you if 2 people where talking of killing you? And they looked sorta tough?) and they give him a job. It just seemed pointlessly posturing - and also, illogical, which is what I remember bothered me as a kid. Like stand behind your principles please, and let's then judge the results.

[@frenstcht]

It's a shame that the literati can't work out the difference between the characters and the author.

[@travissmith2848]

@@frenstcht Might have something to do with the idea of everything that is written has a message the author is trying to convey. Nothing is ever _just_ a story, it all has some deep (and sometimes not well hidden) meaning. At least that's what highschool English class said. Gotta dig deep and find what the author is really saying. I don't buy it, but so the theory goes. So, if the author isn't showing the failings of a system they must support it.

[@kurtjk01]

@@travissmith2848 Ever read a Harlequin romance novel?

[@jessrl8025]

The whipping scene had me scream laughing... "Dadd- Sarge, tell them!"

[@WiseSageBum]

When your Saturday nights make their way into your day job and

[@captainscience2732]

Something you left out when talking about the book is that service performed in order to earn the right to vote didn't necessarily mean having to the military, it was just the one with the shortest service requirement. There were TONS of civilian options which took longer but still netted you the right to vote once you got through it. Never really mentioned after Rico enlists, but it adds some interesting nuance to the Federation.

[@jamesatkinsonja]

I remember Rico wanting to be an intelligence officer/spy [CIA, MI6 etc] but gets rejected. They also say it includes administration and manual labour.

[@andrewh5568]

I remember somewhere reading that as long you were willing to do the work no matter what your condition/disability/circumstances they'll find a job for you to do, as long as you're willing to do your part they'll give you work to do it and make you a citizen.

[@aliasisudonomo]

Yeah there's some other glaring inaccuracies in this. I get wanting to dunk on something one personally dislikes, but...

[@forrestpenrod2294]

Pretty sure Heinlein changed it to "all service guarantees citizenship" after the original release.

[@captainscience2732]

@@andrewh5568 That was indeed in the book! If you wanted to enlist for military service they'd find a job for you no matter what. Another example of weirdly progressive things wrapped up in the overall jingoistic nonsense of the book as a whole is the ability to quit the military anytime, no questions asked even if it's right before a combat drop. The only consequence is that you don't earn your citizenship due to not completing your term of service.

[@masteryoraerasante]

I remember watching a 3d cartoon of this years before ever seeing the movie. I remember that, while it wasn't exactly a parody, the society was not glorified - I distinctly remember an episode where one of the main party's members, a cameraman supposed to film scenes to use in their propagandas, was complaining about "how to twist this mess into a hopeful message without lying completelly?" Dizzy also lived for a loong while, if she ever died (if she did I missed it), but Rico was considered dead for a short while and Carl was in come for a long while too.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles. I need to finish watching that. It was quite good. Actually included the gear from the book. It wasn't a continuation of the show, but that happens a lot in movie spinoffs. Godzilla: The Series was a rare exception while something like Men In Black: The Series is the norm.

[@Michael-sb8jf]

I remember watching this every Saturday along side pokemon in the same block of shows

[@TheBrendNew]

Paul Verhoeven sounding like a German man instead of a Dutch man is the most English speaking thing I've ever heard.

[@GuineaPigEveryday]

Its literally what they did in Oppenheimer. Sitting in the theatre in Belgium as Oppenheimer spoke straight up fucking German, and them bragged about speaking Dutch, was honestly hilarious. Even Spiderman Far From Home was more accurate. Its just funny though, i cant see ppl getting offended over it considering how few ppl rlly speak dutch

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@GuineaPigEveryday I saw a fair few "come on, our entire country also speaks your language, you couldn't hire one damn consultant to fix the scene??" outrage tweets lmao

[@wjzav1971]

@@GuineaPigEveryday Funnily enough, in the German dub of the film, he did speak Dutch. I think its a localization thing. Similarly, whenever there are German characters in American TV shows, they are made Danish or Dutch people in the German dub to keep the language barrier. Otto in Malcom in the Middle was a German guy but in the German dub, was made into a Danish guy. Same with Herman the German in Scrubs.

[@happyninja42]

I remember reading Starship Troopers as a teen, and briefly being swayed by the idea of "military service required for citizenship/voting rights". People can say he wasn't being serious with it, but the fact is he frames it VERY positively, and it can have an impact on young minds.

[@DrewLSsix]

It's a worthwhile topic to discuss though, where DO you draw the line? Even now in the US and Europe we don't practice absolute democracy or offer everyone the vote at all times. Is it OK to strip a criminal of their vote? Is it okay to place a minimum age on the vote? What about a maximum age? Education requirements? Citizenship vs residency?

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

Personally I'm like thought experiments. I used to read a lot of comics when I was a kid. I loved the Marvel What If stories.

[@Robb3636]

@@DrewLSsix In Scotland we allow students who are studying in the country for a degree to vote in our local elections, which I'm in two minds on. On the one hand, they do have some skin in the game, and they should be able to vote on issues that will effect them, but should their vote matter as much as someone who has lived here their whole life? It's interesting to think about.

[@FFKonoko]

​@Robb imo, if it affects you, it affects you. The amount of years you have been around for it to affect you shouldn't really matter. If it did, then a 70 year olds vote would also be "worth" more than a 20 year olds. It mattered enough for them to vote on it, after all.

[@erikbihari3625]

​@@Robb3636. Indeed, I recently entered a debate in the critical drinker's video on This movie, and suggested the faschist propaganda stuff was because associacion from it, when in reality the book is anything, but!

[@ravenstromdans]

Dom's interpretation of the 10 Lashes scene positively made me choke with laughter.

[@nightfall3605]

Maybe I’m sheltered, but I flashed to Gigguk’s Attack On Titan in 9 Minutes: courtroom scene. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/jImmkoOIZcqre5o 4:53 Levi: (after pulverizing Erin) I propose that from now on Erin will be supervised by me privately at all times. Erin: Oh thank god yes!

[@UGNAvalon]

“Daddy - I mean, Sarge!~” Legit lol’d at that xD

[@Crazed-Sanity]

My laughing woke my cat up, who was not happy with me.

[@empressfreya9872]

It's a highlight of his video when he does skits like that and I can clock that he has kinky gear 😂

[@Turahk]

🤮🤮🤮

[@johndrabinowicz7215]

I'm confused, the book shows citizenship as general public service not just the military. In the book there seems to be mostly a republic style lifestyle and did not read as a military dictatorship. The movie on the other hand was indeed a military dictatorship.

[@Chetverikov]

There's no confusion. The book is not about a military dictatorship or a fascist society. The folks who say it is either didnt' read it, or didn't bother to pay attention when they did and filtered it through their memory of the movie, which was made by a guy who got about twenty or thirty pages into the book and stopped reading because he got bored".

[@JohnSmith-tt3go]

It's kind of hilarious though because while the director tried to make a blatantly fascist dictatorship he bungled it so much that he accidentally made a movie about a functioning Republic with limited suffrage rather than universal.

[@PropheticShadeZ]

​@Chetverikov the guy tried to invent a system of military dominance over the population, and then spent the entire book pretending it would work well, he thought modern democracy would absolutely collapse because spanking was frowned upon Yes in the fiction of the book, the society is designed to make military dominance over a society as good, especially for an american audience But the fascism is definitely present, because fasicst propaganda looks like this, the fervour and certainty. The supression of civil liberties to prevent the "intelectuals" from implimenting new ideas (this was said before the civil rights movement) Dom even mentions rico blows up a whole bunch of civilians worshipping peacefully in a church, and never even thinks about it

[@longbeardbobson4710]

It wasn't, we see the head of government resign after making a mistake and, as far as we are aware, the leaders are elected by citizens. Also, even if it was dictatorial, it would not be fascist; the society depicted it is international liberalism. A core tenet of fascism is nationalism.

[@JohnFobar-k9p]

Dictatorship means there is a dictator. Voting system suggests that is not the case. Government service in order to GUARENTEE citizenship indicates there are other ways to become a citizen and obtain the right to vote.

[@minastone155]

I knew it! That “would you like to know more” is imprinted in my brain as one of the only things I remember about this movie

[@euansmith3699]

Just like, "I'd buy that for a Dollar", from Verhoeven's Robocop. A great pair of films.

[@LordEsel88]

I think it must be underlined that in the book citizenship was earned _not only_ by military service. There were many civilian paths too. The only criteria was that it had to be a very difficult job.

[@graceskerp]

Thank you. The path to franchise, not citizenship, was simple. An individual had to be at least 18 years old and able to understand the requirements in the contract. A 94 year old blind, deaf, quadplegic could apply and had to be accepted if s/he met the above. Then for two years they do some sort work they were capable of doing. From memory "If all they can do is count the hairs on a caterpillar, we find them work in a caterpillar research lab." If they complete the term of service, they are franchised. Heinlein allowed that if a person wanted to have a say in how society functioned, s/he should be willing to put a bit of skin in the game to show that say mattered. People who didn't sign up otherwise had full civil and human rights. Further, those people who signed up for military service had to put in 20 years before they were franchised.

[@merrittanimation7721]

Still stupid that you need to work for the government in order to have your opinion matter.

[@jfangm]

I believe it is stated in the book that you could be missing half a brain and they'd find a job for you if you wanted to be a citizen.

[@gwest3644]

Having to “earn” citizenship in any way still is an abhorrent concept

[@totalCoolerUsername]

The thing is, that's not written at any point in the book, but said by Heinlein in a commentary years after publishing

[@neilprice513]

I always thought Robert A. Heinlein was a sort of "method Writer" someone who completely throws themselves into the narrative world they were creating to see through the eyes of their characters. As the politics of this works was all over the place.

[@cmoriarty55]

That actually strikes me as really plausible, the politics of Stranger In A Strange Land always struck me as do different than Starshop Troopers, but they make sense from that lens

[@prcervi]

I hope it's that cause the man's political opinions is confusing af otherwise

[@glenmcinnes4824]

He actually said in an interveiw if you went by the politics of his books he would be an extreme ..... as he listed books and their political bents, they then asked him what he was politically and he effectively refused to say and moved the interview on

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

@@cmoriarty55 I honestly think Stranger In A Strange Land is way more fascistic in what it believes in and how characters use their power.

[@bobross1829]

This was very common in books and in film until VERY recently and many younger people do not get this. The thought that a fiction writer should only write stories that reflected their own beliefs would be seen as pretty weird just 30-40 years ago. Same for actors only portraying roles that look like them, directors making movies that they only personally agree with, etc..

[@danscan7376]

Why does everyone miss that it was not military service that was required for citizenship, it was any form of government service. Including counting hairs on caterpillars.

[@CollinMcLean]

Because 1. The government is the military in his world. 2. He never actually specifies that it's non-military service. A lot of quotes from the book seem to imply the government service is military in nature.

[@danscan7376]

@@CollinMcLean He actually does. "If a blind deaf and dumb applicant wants to volunteer, we will find a job for him, even if it is counting hairs on a caterpillar". Sounds more like the Peace Corp than the Army. The point he was making was voting and political power should not be free. It must be paid for somehow.

[@CollinMcLean]

@@danscan7376 And in the book Rico is also hesitant to join the federal service because of his dad's attitude towards the military. This was also a point made by James Gifford who draws from multiple quotes in the book and also points out how recruiters for the service all seem to be decorated soldiers. www.nitrosyncretic.com/rah/ftp/fedrlsvc.pdf

[@spacepiratecaptainrush1237]

I'm sure someone will mention it but "Roughnecks: Starship Trooper chronicles" as another spin-off that worked surprisingly well. it didn't get into as much of the politics as it was TV show geared at teenagers, but still got pretty grim with the horrors of war. in it, the MI have powered body armour, plus Marauders in the unit as a heavy assault option. They are deployed in drop pods like the book described and while they kept the bugs as purely organic, they explained a lot of stuff with intentional modifications to adapt to new environments and even had organic spaceships. it's CGI animated and it may not hold up by modern standards but it was pretty cool when I saw it and the story still holds up.

[@eldritchmorgasm4018]

Sadly, another cancelled show, back in the day the production was quite expensive, too expensive

[@RottenRogerDM]

I hated that cartoon. Always came on just as I had to leave for work. But it seem more fateful to the book, that the movie.

[@gorvarhadgarson5227]

​@@RottenRogerDM It's on KZbin now if you wanna watch. Bit late but hey ho.

[@stomyn]

A wild Red appears

[@DuelaDent52]

That threw me for a loop. What’s she doing here?

[@Grim_Sister]

(Silently pulls out a pokeball)

[@TheDisplacerBeast]

In its natural habitat, a media criticism.

[@annesthesya]

@@DuelaDent52 from what I remember Cyan mentioned that she’s his editor so I assume they got acquainted through her or the other way around

[@annieblackwell278]

​@@annesthesya close but not quite. INDIGO is both Dominics and Blues editor. Cyan is blues wife

[@sunnybloom7272]

If anyone wants a deeper discussion of Heinlein, Starship Troopers and its director Paul Verhoven (also the director of Robocop and Basic Instinct) I’d super strongly recommend Kyle Kallgren’s three part epic on his channel. He gets into a lot of cultural aspects and philosophical pondering that make the book, the film and Verhoven’s body of work really interesting especially from a Dutch perspective. Lovely video as always!

[@jesseslack2089]

Thanks for this info it was awesome!

[@dekardkain5469]

Except if you look at interviews, Verhoven flat out admitted he didn't even read the book....

[@clownpendotfart]

@@dekardkain5469 Yes, which is part of why I don't think it's actually a good satire.

[@jfangm]

@@clownpendotfart Ironically, by failing understanding both the source material AND fascism, Verhoeven accidentally gave us a pretty accurate representation of the Terran Federation as Heinlein envisioned it. Rico and his friends volunteer for service, for their own reasons, and there is even a deleted scene where Ibanez explains to Rico that he doesn't need to become a citizen because his parents are rich - all while Rico fondles her, publicly, and others do similar in the background. It is one of the most Heinlein and libertarian scenes in the entire film, which is probably why it was cut. Can't call the Federation fascist if you have evidence of it NOT being fascist right at the beginning.

[@Argonnosi]

@@jfangm kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYfTiqmMZbRqq6s

[@simmyjester]

The Starship Troopers movie came out when I was in middle school, when I was a big Heinlein fan because my school's library had so many of his books and I love browsing libraries. So I go to the movies with my mom and stepdad who are planning to see something else, and I couldn't get into Starship Troopers...because it was rated R. Which confused the hell out of me because I had my library copy with me because I was re-reading it because *movie*. But my mom and stepdad wouldn't watch it with me so I wound up watching their boring, present-day Earth movie. The next time I went to my dad's, he took me to see Starship Troopers...and we learned why it was rated R. Awkward!

[@JoeFF85]

The book makes sure to emphasize during the OCS classroom sections that the officer candidates are not being instructed that their system “is the best” simply that it is theirs and it works, and they’re gonna keep using it rather than upset their apple cart again.

[@wolf3794]

I'm gonna have to disagree. There's a line in there, something about why hasn't the system failed? And it's explained that by taking the agressive ones and making them the protectors, the ones who end up with power are the ones who are willing to fight for it. Everyone one else is just talk. Something about making the wolves the sheepdogs. So by indoctrinating the only ones with the will to fight the system, they preserve it.

[@VtTexpat]

That opening skit is the entire reason I love this movie so much.

[@dougmartin2007]

That skit was dead on.

[@LadyoftheDreamless14]

Im so here for praise of Casper Van Dien. Hes such a lovely person and so kind. Hes also just the cutest dad! Hes just so crazy proud of his kids and everything they do!

[@euansmith3699]

That's great to hear.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

Oh, that's good. I think I saw him in a few tv movies that were a lot of fun.

[@md28stads]

Did he ever do anything after this? I remember the Tarzan movie, but have never seen him again since then for the last 25 years.

[@SamAronow]

@@md28stads I acted with him in a Chinese TV movie about the Doolittle Raid that will probably never be seen by the public. He taught me to play the bugle and drove me on a 1940s Jeep without either of us being thrown off and dying, which I think is pretty cool.

[@alanpennie8013]

​@@SamAronow Definitely.

[@ghostgoose4067]

It was sort of insinuated in the book that Carmen and Rico were a little bit more than friends. They weren't dating exclusively but it was clear that their relationship wasn't strictly just friends. They should have gone that route in the movie, because it would have made more sense when Carmen gets with the Zander dude so fast after they join up.

[@irishcream9004]

a brief look at Stranger in a Strange land can tell you how Hienlen would like women to act, they did something, but they very much were not something

[@naolmstead]

My dad had a bunch of Heinlein books in his library and Starship Troopers was one of my favorites as a teenager mostly because of the power armor so I was so excited to see that it was going to be made into a movie only to be disappointed by the utter lack of power armor. I was still young and didn't really look for deeper meanings usually so I didn't even notice the all the Nazi uniforms and whatnot in the movie until my dad pointed it out when he eventually watched it. And he hated the movie for that reason.

[@ORLY911]

There was an 80's anime OVA adaptation that included the power armor so you could look around for that, i think you can find it on KZbin somewhere.

[@tahunuva4254]

Best power armour I've seen on film has gotta be in Edge Of Tomorrow. Especially how they start off super clunky, but over the course of the film you see their true awesome power.

[@mahbriggs]

I would point out the Nazi like uniforms was the Director's idea, not RAH! In fact the book has little in common with film other than a few names! In point of fact, the book is not particularly fascistic unless you have a strong misunderstanding of Fascism. Which the silly video creator apparently has!

[@glenfahselt8378]

@@mahbriggs Citizenship, especially in some ancient civilizations, was an important status that seems greatly misunderstood these days. I think a good source to get a better perspective on it would be Victor Davis Hanson. He has some excellent lectures, speeches, and writing on the historical version of what Citizenship was, and the importance of it. Robert A. Heinlein took that classic historical model and adapted it to his fictional story, but for some reason Paul Verhoeven decided it was about fascism, or that it should be, perhaps? I saw the film before reading the book. I enjoyed the book a great deal more.

[@Durandurandal]

It's a better watch when you take the film on its own merits (and as comedy), but it's totally fair to feel that way. Book makes several pretty clear statements that human life has an intrinsic, immaterial value, film has Ironside's character poppin his own troopers for "mercy" and convenience

[@DeathRex88]

I absolutely lost my mind as a kid when I learned that Starship Troopers was a heavy influence for Mobile Suit Gundams conception. It's neat to find lines of connection between the things you like

[@abadenoughdude300]

Ironic, considering how many people completely miss MSG's message as well.

[@marocat4749]

Gundam is better,and pretty obvious with how war is bad.

[@darkhobo]

​@@marocat4749 i remember being 13...

[@dawkinsbeagle]

The movie actually got a fun animated tv series spin off called Roughnecks that sadly never got a proper ending, that I loved to watch as a kid. There are also some attempts at the powered armour in there and a the characters having some careful critisism of their government, whilest maintaining the parody aspect. They even included the Skinnies in that one. I really loved it.

[@5h0rgunn45]

I love that show too! I can never understand why I so often encounter people who love the movie and think the show was awful. The show is much better than the movies in my opinion.

[@eryne_erin]

Dude, I used to wake up at 5 am in the summer to watch new episodes with my dad before he went to work. I even found a box set of the entire series on amazon and got it for him. Good times 😁

[@dolantrimp1691]

And there's an 80s anime version.

[@Demonlord4546]

Wait, there was stuff other than the book and the 1 good movie?

[@5h0rgunn45]

@@Demonlord4546 Yep. Lotta people don't like Roughnecks but I love it. There was also a Starship Troopers anime. Both Roughnecks and the anime were cancelled, so the anime has a very rushed final few episodes while Roughnecks just suddenly cuts off. I still think Roughnecks is worth a watch though.

[@117Jorn]

Actually, it’s not military service in the book - it’s just Civil Service. The Civil Service includes military service within the Mobile Infantry, but it also includes other non-combat roles. A civil service is just a job that is dirty and dangerous that may involve you risking your life for the betterment of the Federation as a whole. It’s to prove that you as an individual are willing to put the needs of the many, ahead of the needs of the few. The people haven’t really given up rights - after all, freedom of speech is still a thing. The only difference is that a civilian who hasn’t earned citizenship can’t vote or run for office. They can still be wealthy business owners or whatever the heck else they want with little to no input from the federal government.

[@JamoboBorg]

It's a pity we haven't gotten an adaption of The Forever War. It was partly written as a response to Starship Troopers, as well as author Joe Haldeman's own experience's of the Vietnam war. It contains a number of similarities including power armour, a military-fascist world society, a mostly unknown enemy from many lightyears away and even includes a small twist similar to the government staged attack as the reason for the war's beginning. However, it does all this with a much stronger anti-war message. The main character has to watch several friends die and just accept it, deal with the fact he's been conditioned both sub-consciously and even hypnotically to fight and, due to the warping of time caused by making several jumps at lightspeed, reckon with a world he no longer recognises. Funnily enough when he first comes back to Earth, he returns in the year 2023. Haldeman makes a number of predictions about what life is like. Some are a little silly, but the book has very strong feelings on homosexuality and that the world should have fully embraced it by this point, even coining the term "Homolife" as a genuine answer to the ballooning population

[@ikaemos]

Yup. It's definitely a much better book "glorifying the common soldier", and it achieves that through empathy and nuanced introspection. It also does that while simultaneously slamming jingoism.

[@NaatClark]

Reminds me a bit of The Wanting Seed by Anthony Burgess about a massively overpopulated Earth where the government tries to encourage homosexuality. "It's sapiens to be homo!"

[@hjalfi]

I remember it as a great book, although a bit deus machina in the ending. I haven't read it for a while; has it aged well? It's got lots of weird sex, too. Pre-homolife the armed forces had a rota of all the other shipmates they had to sleep with...

[@JamoboBorg]

@@hjalfi Literally just finished it yesterday. It's aged quite well, but yeah the sex rota is weird, but the weirdness is pointed out by the protag a couple of times. Supposed to be another point against the control of the government, but still an odd part to read

[@hjalfi]

@@JamoboBorg I do remember that the main character's homophobia to be a bit uncomfortable, but at least it's portrayed _as_ a phobia and something he's trying to work through. It's used as another element of him being in an unrecognisable world. Entertainingly there's a spinoff story describing his girlfriend's adventures while seperated from him. She perfectly happily boinks women when she gets horny. Good ol' lesbian double standard...

[@C.L.Hinton]

26:36 "Wha?? No I'm not. I'm not! Daddy - Sarge, tell them I'm not!" That's just too funny, Dom!! 😂 Also, I'm _loving_ the OSP crossover with Red. ♥️

[@caseygoddard]

Yup, Dom is apparently too kinky to torture.

[@thelastdictator482]

My two biggest problems with the movie version was lack of power armor (they could have at least introduced it at the end as a new bug killing strat) and the whitewash of nearly every character from Rico to Zim.

[@jasontoddman7265]

The director of the movie never bothered to read the book, so it's no wonder.

[@sijul6483]

​@@jasontoddman7265 iirc, verhoeven was also a socialist. Could be wrong, but he's Dutch and Europeans were rather quick on the uptake.

[@jasontoddman7265]

@@sijul6483 Oh, he was not only Dutch but actually experienced his neighborhood getting bombed in WWII by the Allies when he was a small child because he lived there a Nazi military base there. So his anti-fascist views have a personal strong and understandable basis (no idea whether he's a socialist though) so I suppose an opportunity to lampoon such a system as in Heinlein's book (which, tbh, was pretty right wing) was just too good for him to resist.

[@Argonnosi]

@@jasontoddman7265 No ethno-nationalism, sexual egalitarianism, the sky marshal gets replaced due to a lack of confidence after footage of Klendathu is released to the public, no restrictions on freedom of speech, religion, trade, or movement... where's the fascism?

[@ANTIStraussian]

​@@jasontoddman7265he got to chapter 3 apparently

[@rskeyesful]

I grew up on Heinlein in the 1950's. My mother read them to me. I read them in Boys Life Magazine. I still love them and still re-read them every now and then. When I find the box, in the garage, that has Starman Jones in it, I'm going to re-read that next.

[@jessepollard7132]

"Have Space Suit- Will Travel".

[@christinae30]

@jessepollard7132: YES! More specific: one of the best books I know, have the best elements of SciFi in it; I read this book approx five times a year when 10-12... And pockets are one of the best inventions (yet)!

[@dragonvliss2426]

Me too. My Dad was an engineer who loved hard science fiction, and introduced me to SF when I was 13. I like most SF, but later moved toward the more sociological SF of the 60's and 70's. Heinlein's young adult novels were a big part of my life. Heinlein was a remarkable man, and my partner said he and my father were the only two men she ever called "Sir." ( We were both majorly into Science Fiction conventions).

[@Disciplejoe777]

When I was younger I loved the starship troopers movie only because it was mindless fighting and fun. And boobs. I got older and I understood the satire, loved it for that too. And now after having read the book I have a different appreciation for both entities. Funny how life works.

[@zerokura]

Well why not complete this with watching the Cgi cartoon that kids watch. Kids like me who watched the cartoon. Psychic guy is still my favorite.

[@Disciplejoe777]

@zerokura I completely forgot to mention that! Lol I saw them all until the last episode. Also all the movies and played the old PC games

[@jdraven0890]

Yes - same. I think if anything Verhoven did "too good" of a job of making the action badass and entertaining. I don't even care what Verhoven's intention was, I just enjoy the movie, and the book is also good (if not IMHO the best of Heinlein's work).

[@theinsanebookworm]

It was always interesting how much more of the book was shown in the animated Roughnecks show, from the power armor to the Skinnies. It was a fun mix of the movie and book universe, and I wish it had gone on longer.

[@UGNAvalon]

LiA bonus episode? :D

[@newtpondskipper]

I loved the cartoon while hating the movie.

[@NukeMarine]

It'd be akin to the Alien vs Predator vs Colonial Marine universe where Aliens are less technological and more rapey bugs, Predators were the less civilian life Skinnies, and Colonial Marines still lacked power armor but feel like the power arm of a military industrial complex.

[@hildegunstvonmythenmetz6095]

As soon as Dom began talking about Heinlein‘s weird book ideas, I thought „ah yes, that thing Red made a video on“, and then she actually showed up! Neat!

[@DR3ADER1]

They weren't weird, but quite logical, remember, he was a classical liberal. Red and Dom are not and are really stupid.

[@ew6074]

How does the voluntary military service to vote in the democratic republic depicted in the Starship Troopers novel differ from a democratic republic that has mandatory military service like Switzerland?

[@katthawthorne1027]

Your videos are always top-notch quality, but this one was beyond amazing. Great writing, funny asides, delightful pacing (and your editor is, as always, bang-on, too). The only thing it lacked was a cameo from Sir Terry during the bloopers ^_^

[@Cousin_Uli]

The 80's anime OVA's of SST are worth a watch if you're a fan of the book. Most of its run time is dedicated to fleshing out bits that Juan glosses over in the novel. Stuff like the firefighting action they do in training, and arachnids attacking one of their training exercises. It functions less as an adaptation and more an extended companion piece to the novel. It also is home to the absolute best depiction of the Marauder Armor we've had in media thus far. And if you want to see SST get the absolute piss taken out of it, check out Harry Harrisons first Bill the Galactic Hero book. Harrison had basically the complete opposite opinion of his time in the military that Heinlein did. It's an excellent contrast to SST and a hell of a funny read.

[@perceivedvelocity9914]

I'm 45 and remember when this movie first came out. Everyone who watched the movie immediately understood that it was anti fascist. I remember people being made fun of if they missed that and thought that it was pro fascist. There were a couple of professional reviewers who couldn't understand the nuance. Also we laughed at the "advanced military technology" in the movie.

[@korganrocks3995]

The professional reviewers who missed the nuance should have had the good grace to retire immediately... 😄

[@AnnekeOosterink]

@@korganrocks3995 Yeah, if your job is reviewing media, and your media literacy is so low you missed the satire... I can't imagine how anyone could miss it. But media literacy is low as it is tbh. I have seen people talk about two different symbols in a TV show and heard them say that the two symbols pointed at each other, as if they were some kind of ouroboros of metaphors.

[@euansmith3699]

"There were a couple of professional reviewers who couldn't understand the nuance." Like it isn't exactly nuance. I think that misunderstanding the film is a good benchmark for spotting fascie people.

[@TheoRae8289]

I envy all you people who grew around people with sense.

[@zombieedrea]

I first watched this movie when I was really young (I watched stuff like Independence Day every single day so I was very into alien battles and all that) and obviously didn't pick up on the fascist themes cuz I was like, 7. But when I rewatched it as a teenager it was immediately clear to me what the film was satirizing, and I'm not someone who was particularly adept at catching that stuff. So it kind of amazes me that any adult watched this and was like, "Yeah, the military aren't the baddies!!" Then again, Americans in particular are so brainwashed by the military industrial complex that it doesn't surprise me *too* much. But I would absolutely make fun of somebody if they thought it was pro-fascist lol.

[@Gormathius]

26:33 The Freudian slip is what made this scene. "Dadd- sarge, tell them!"

[@Formoka]

Yay! A Red cameo when talking about Heinlein is perfect after her video on Stranger In A Strange Land. I do love that we got this reboot of the episode.

[@mffmoniz2948]

Stranger on a Strange Land is 50% awesome and 50% WTF??? Basically I love the first part of the story. The second part... I can't. It's so cult like. Too much for my taste.

[@conwaytwittyer2667]

​@@mffmoniz2948 but it's about Space Jesus, the culty shit was like the point.

[@DR3ADER1]

That's because it was an anti-cult book that depicted the notion of a Space Christ ("Christ" is a Title, it was NEVER Jesus' name) as the preposterous and nonsensical premise that it really is. Yet, just like Red's stupidity and crap interpretation of the book, the emerging movement of the hippies were ALSO idiots and misinterpreted it as a "pro-New Age Cult Book" and such.@@mffmoniz2948

[@ZombieRat8bit]

There is also an animated series with both power armors, arachnid spaceships and the third race, "skinnies", but it's still based on the movie with casper van diem, dizzy and arachnid design intact. I loved that show as a kid.

[@krankarvolund7771]

Well, it would be stupid to let go of the really good and recognizable visuals like the bugs appearance ^^

[@zerokura]

Yay someone else watched it when younger I knew I was not the only one who watched it. Than its off to watch beastwars.

[@alanpennie8013]

​@@zerokura I thought the animated series was pretty good. At least as good as Clone Wars.

[@Mad_Oph]

Fantastic video as usual, but one cool bit is that the "come on, you apes, you wanna live forever?" line is actually derived from a mid-battle quote from USMC Sergeant Major Dan Daly, a two-time Medal of Honor recipient.

[@khylerbane4523]

“I believe in my whole race …Yellow, white, black, red, brown… in honesty, courage, intelligent, durability, and goodness of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be human.” -Heinlien Someone just finally out my feelings about humanity into words abs I’m using this quote from now on.

[@jdraven0890]

I'm a huge Heinlein fan and as you said he is indeed the master of "what if" -- so many of his stories involve posing a new technology or possibility, then exploring what the human reaction to it would be. EDIT: although he explored a lot of different ideas, the vast majority of his stories were from the same universe. Some of his books even lead in with a graphic timeline of major fictional inventions and events, and then some short stories dive into those inventors and their story - and then other works merely reference those inventions/technologies as if their existence were established fact. Also, IMHO Starship Troopers isn't one of his best works, or wholly representative of his ability. If someone didn't care for that book, they might still like others.

[@darwinism8181]

I was a Heinlein fan as a kid and then I read To Sail Beyond the Sunset and... well. I still like some of his works, but others have a far different tone having read that.

[@jdraven0890]

@@darwinism8181 I'm a bit mixed on his later works, yes. And it really requires that you have read several of the other stories to fully appreciate what is going on, where the stuff just before that stands on its own quite well. I will never get tired of Farnham's Freehold or Door into Summer, and most every short story is really good.

[@themarlboromandalorian]

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is my favourite. I recommend people watch Casablanca before reading it, as I feel the dialogue of the protagonist is not dissimilar to how Humphrey Bogart would speak in many of his roles.

[@jdraven0890]

@@themarlboromandalorian that was the first one I read back in high school! Still one of my favorites of his.

[@themarlboromandalorian]

@@jdraven0890 i read it in jail. Was a good turning point in my life, and has coloured my outlook ever since, as I believe we are all, at our core, rational anarchists.

[@taekwongurl]

The opening feels like a callback to your first video on Starship Troopers opening lol! I love it. Edit: have already watched the first video on Patreon. But you had announced you were redoing the video, so I had pre-emptively watched the old one before you privated it 😅

[@donsample1002]

The “Federal Service” requirement wasn’t strictly military. Indeed, since Earth had gone through several decades of peace up to the beginning of the book, military service was a small subset of what people did for their service. The main requirement was that it was work that was unpleasant, and probably dangerous that had to be done by someone.

[@kirgan1000]

Is it not strange that he convinent forget the civil service.

[@AzraelThanatos]

One thing with it is that with the novel, a pacifist could become a citizen, same as anyone else there unlike the movie where it is implied to only be military service. In the books while you could have preferences for what you want to do (which includes your own religious views) and you'll get assigned to some sort of service for your period. You might be driving trucks through tunnels under the ice or similar. It's made clear that even someone blind and missing all of his limbs could become a citizen and they would find something for the guy to do in order to earn their citizenship. The only people who couldn't earn citizenship were certain criminals or those who quit along the way, but about the only thing that a civilian doesn't have is the right to vote or be in politics... It was a point about needing to serve to be able to do more there... With Rico's father, that was explained when they run into each other. Ships only got mail when they were in friendly territory other than encoded data transmissions, Rico does get the letter from his father while he's in officer training school. Also, for warcrimes, we don't know for sure what would be considered a warcrime there considering that it's an entirely different set of rules there, and there's mentions of a lot worse in the way of possibilities with all sides blowing up planets in later points in the war with prisoners being used to keep the enemy from doing that.

[@forloveofthepage2361]

The slip of the tongue during the whip scene had me rolling.

[@sarahr8311]

The fifty shades reviews apparently made quite an impression 😂

[@notoriousgoblin83]

I mean those cuffs are real. Just saying.

[@morganwentworth2041]

My bf is a vet and loves this movie for how hilariously OTT it is. Once in a while I contrast that with a non-vet acquaintance who unironically loves the book. I read the book before seeing the movie and I got to say there are some elements I wish they had included in the movie like Johnny's dad joining his unit

[@dotz5241]

@@DB-pn3yb Perhaps my memory doesn't serve me as well as I think it does, but I don't remember any suppression of the bugs communication and diplomacy abilities. The entire mission of our main character is to capture some of the leading class so they would have bargaining chips in hostage negotiations. The Skinnies (the first aliens they are fighting) even betray the bugs and join up with the humans about midway through. There is however some speculation as to whether or not the bugs are interested, or if an understanding can be properly met between a hive mind vs individual thinking race.

[@geraldwashington6588]

@@DB-pn3ybeverything you just said is exclusive to the movie not the book lol. the military aspect of the book comes from heinleins experiences in the military, and is meant to represent the experiences of the ally’s in ww2. It’s meant to emulate exactly how war with a new enemy happens, and all the stumbles and learning processes that come with it. There is absolutely no inference that it is society to blame for the mistakes or missteps within the book. Also, the bugs in the book are known to be intelligent and sentient beings…I mean, they literally did a coordinated attack against earth…

[@glenmcinnes4824]

In the Book "Federal Service" was not just the Military but any number of socially contributing jobs, you could do two years in the Army or up to six as a Hospital Wardsman, or building Civil Infrastructure, if the Job was risky (like cleaning up superfund sights) your fed service stint could be as short as time in the military arms. and unless you where mentally incompetent regardless of any other disability they had to take you and find a job for you even if it was as a Pharma lab rat or whatever.

[@SunwardRanger83]

I largely agree with what you said, the only question I have is where does it say you need to put in more time if you're not in the military? I've read the book several times and I was always under the impression that the term of service was 2 years unless called back due to an emergency, and that this was the same for all branches. Did I miss something?

[@edwardsummey8843]

@@SunwardRanger83 I may have gotten that from supplemental material. It is so intertwined in my head. I first read Starship Troopers 41 years ago.

[@glenmcinnes4824]

@@SunwardRanger83 When it was serialized some versions had it in, others didn't, when they compiled the parts for the book they dropped the explicit variable term length for "However long as the Federation Requires", so if the Federation has you digging ditches or working as a wardsman they will require you longer than a Peace Time MI.

[@Y00bi]

Notably, it's not military service that earns you citizenship. It's ANY public service. Lawyers, police officers and teachers all get to vote.

[@unitedeuropean2159]

That piece of lore was added only after severe criticism, and it wasn't originally in the book. And wouldn't it defeat the whole point of putting your life on the line for humanity?

[@christopherbower3828]

I love how your thirst trap nakedness from your Instagram posts is now making it's way into your videos. I'm definitely not complaining. Plus, I always love seeing another insightful, well researched and at once bitingly witty and hilariously silly Lost In Adaptation.

[@alicethemad1613]

Jesus Christ that OSP crossover should count as a jumpscare

[@Gauldame]

My only quibble is that Heinlein isn't the originator of power armor in sci fi. He contributed greatly to it's popularity, however, all your points mentioned can also be applied to EE Smith's Lensman Series, which came out earlier. Including the aspects of it being a jump capable heavy armor that has massive weapons and increases the users strength. The things even had freaking force fields and were so armored their guns were a ridiculous railgun/energy weapon combo to get through it (and the inevitable counter armor that it caused in the opposing side). Worn by a specific set of humans who were bigger, stronger, from a specific hell world, and that were augmented regularly. *stares at several series accusingly* It also was considered extremely influential with regards to some fringe Sci Fi series...you probably haven't heard of them. /S ... Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune...Warhammer 40k, you know fringe stuff that doesn't put anything out anymore and that nobody argues about anyway. (Trivia Note: Lucas had the full set of hardback novels, beside Burroughs "Of Mars" series in his personal library in his office. Where if you turned around in his seat, those novels would be eye level. You could see them in some of his old interviews in his office behind his head.) (Second Note: So I watched John Carter of Mars when it came out, and as I was leaving a couple came out. One of them stated...and I quote ... "They stole such much from George Lucas he should sue." I died a little, so you have to as well.) Even the authors at the time commented on the influence of EE's work. He lost to the Foundation series in 66 for all time best sci fi series, and both Asimov and Smith apparently were quoted singing high praises of the other. One quote I remember humorously... which I believe was attributed to Asimov ... as the authors were both being interviewed was basically as follows: "why are all the leading ladies in Smith's novels strong willed redheads that the main lead falls for?" ... "Have you seen the man's wife? If I married a woman like that all my heroines would be redheads too." Apparently she didn't put up with shit (in the '40s) and Smith swooned like a teenager till they past. And she would get into it with the sci fi authors. Good luck getting an adaptation to compare/contrast. There's only been some anime ones ... that would probably hurt you to try to find similarities. Think 80s anime that you wave the ashes of the author at the stills and call it "referenced". JMS tried, but lost the fight in development hell in '14.

[@Lordgrayson]

It's funny to read the Starship Troopers book after watching the movie and realize that it's not even a fascist government... It's a Republic. And this is also shown in the movie although the person making the movie mistook it for fascism and tried to make it seem more like a Fascist government One of the things that actually indicates it being a classical republic is the fact that only Citizens get to vote, and Citizens are determined by those who have chosen to serve their country, this comes from a classical Republican idea of the citizen soldier, that every man should be both a citizen and a soldier to have a ready populous to defend the Republic

[@notgonnapay]

You can become a citizen by working any government-related job, it wasn’t just the military.

[@Lordgrayson]

@@notgonnapay Yeah but my point was more about how Militarism is often mistaken for Fascism by the misinformed

[@jaycievictory8461]

"You know, like, on the march but... higher up and more... uppy-downy." Why was this so adorable 😅

[@Orangefan77]

Quite a take at 4:43 there, Dom. Quite a lot of us retired military folks are neither far right, nor far far right - quite the opposite, in fact. Nor have we been brainwashed, either. In fact we're quite keen to continue defending our nations *against* fascism, even from within, at home.

[@TroyColey]

Thank you for your hard work, we all appreciate it. You are a incredible, amazing, and wonderful person.

[@alexandresobreiramartins9461]

Yes, that's really true!

[@Rekaert]

I'm fully aware that Verhoeven 'intended' to create a satire of fascism, but beyond the superficial, such as uniforms reminiscent of Nazi era Germany, it just isn't there. He said he didn't like the book as it was 'very right-wing' and fascistic, but admitted he only read two chapters, which does explain a few things. Some people say the government in the movie is a Dictatorship and therefore fascist, but that ignores two points. One, dictatorships are far from exclusively fascistic, and the government in the movie isn't a dictatorship. It's a representative democracy where voting rights are restricted to those who take personal responsibility for the preservation of it. But isn't restricting voting rights fascist? Well, no, we do that in every country on the planet. We just use different criteria. We restrict based on age, and criminality. In one instance we deem the person not old enough and therefore not responsible enough to vote, and with the other we deem the person's actions have shown them too irresponsible, and the vote is removed. Starship troopers goes the other way and says, if you want to vote, prove you're a responsible person. Earn it, because 'something given has no value'. This is the Civilian vs Citizen split in the movie, where if you're a civilian you can live freely and can become successful and wealthy with your own business, such as Rico's parents, but you will never have voting rights, never be able to take public office, and some things are harder to get, such as a licence to have children, as it's implied that population is controlled to prevent overpopulation. Alternatively, any civilian can choose to enter into service, (not necessarily military), and earn citizenship, at which point they can vote, take public office and all the rest. In other words, voting is not something taken for granted, but something earned, and therefore something valued. Likewise, Citizenship is not something that is unattainable for anyone. Everyone merely starts off a the same level of civilian, and some choose to progress to citizen through personal choice, which is important. At the core of the Civilian vs Citizen split, it is about choice. If you want citizenship and the additional rights afforded because of it, the door is open for you, and it's up to you to choose to step through. It isn't something which will be withheld from you by an authoritarian government, but it is something they want you to earn, so you appreciate the value of it.

[@19jez89]

Someone gets it. The system is its own thing entirely. It's redundant using labels like fascism to try and describe it. I've genuinely tried to see it the way the "media literacy" crowd say they see it, but beyond the surface level superficiality it just doesn't land. As far as I can make out, the whole "humans are the real baddies" head cannon relies solely on the Buenos Aries false flag theory. Had the film actually made that explicit, it could have worked. But all there is really to go on is mid-century German uniforms and satirical wartime propaganda videos. I once put this to a bug-poster on twitter and they bizarrely said they didn't believe the Buenos Aries attack was a false flag, but maintained that the humans were still the bad guys regardless. I reasoned that if the bugs wiped out literally millions of innocent people simply because some religious wackos set up a single colony (which the Federation insisted that they shouldn't do), then the humans were justified in responding. The rebuttal boiled down to "yeah but muh propaganda videos and Nazi uniforms". They even started saying that Federation was made up of de facto despots. I pointed to the scene where the head of the military literally voluntarily steps down and they still wouldn't accept it. I resorted to cheekily pointing out that it was a white man ceding power to a black woman, hoping I might get through to them on a crude identity politics level, but no. For a cohort of people who are more than happy to go full "death of the author" when reading anti-capitalist themes in to anything they can, they don't half go to bat for Verhoeven's stated intentions. I just don't get it. Still, it's a great film and i enjoy the debates.

[@CollinMcLean]

Restricting voting rights to those who show they are dedicated to the state is a very far reach from saying "you can't vote if you're in prison"

[@Rekaert]

​@@CollinMcLean Really? How so?

[@CollinMcLean]

@@Rekaert Because you're only giving the right to vote to those who already show they are dedicated to the state and it's ideals and make up a small percentage of the overall population. Creating a selection pressure for those most likely to support the existing regime. Trying to equate that to temporarily waiving someone's right to vote while serving a period of incarceration deliberately ignores the implications of either. That one is a temporary gap in the use of your rights while the other is saying that you don't get the right period...

[@Rekaert]

@@CollinMcLean Yes, the vote is withheld until that person proves they are responsible, and will be a net benefit rather than a drain. It isn't granted to everyone, but only those who meet the appropriate criteria. It's the choice of the individual, and a result of their own actions whether they are granted the right to vote or not. And yes, I'm talking about both examples.

[@DarkcIoud1111.]

Also as another fun bit of trivia, the outfits the mobile infantry have were later used in Power Rangers: Lost Galaxy by the infantry aboard Terra Venture.

[@kennethfharkin]

and they also showed up in Firefly in the train heist episode if I remember correctly.

[@SunwardRanger83]

@@kennethfharkin Yup, the train heist episode, and at least one or two others as well.

[@eldritchmorgasm4018]

If I remember right, those were also used in the movie "Imposter" with Gary Sinise, based on a Philip K. Dick story, and if I remember correctly, they also used action/spectacle-moments from other movies in general, as in stolen, kinda, but I'm not sure... only watched it once about 20 years ago & it was a weird thing to watch 😅

[@bearerofbadnews1375]

Those uniforms also showed up in G-saviour the live action gundam film.

[@BoomerZ.artist]

Firefly also.

[@shebjess]

Okay, Verhoeven sabotaging the movie from the inside is amazing and that's incredibly baller of him

[@frankyplata9761]

While watching the documentary about Tippett, it's also very clear that Verhoeven partially made the bugs a bigger thing because he had loved the humor and zaniness that Phil Tippett and his crew brought to film. He sabotaged it in a way that made it a better time for the whole crew.

[@jamesatkinsonja]

I wouldn't really say he was 'sabotaging it' to be honest as it implies he was doing it under other crew members noses when they were all on board with what he was doing [hence the script being changed to accommodate his ideas].

[@marocat4749]

Its more working with what he got while making it a movie, but one he is ok with. Which is still balls. And apearently they had a blast doing it.

[@LordOfAllusion]

He failed, because nothing in the film is fascist.

[@jaromswenson7541]

@@LordOfAllusion you cant make that argument with them, because anything right of marx is fascist in the eyes of these keyboard intellectuals. they have military? fascist poor hive mind bugs killed? fascist white blonde man? fascist they wear certain clothes? fascist corporal punishment? fascist responsibility? fascist equality? fascist free market? fascist self defense? facist very few people know what actual fascism is (heck, ill acknowledge im not some expert of it). with how often "nazi" is thrown around in political discourse these days, everyone living today is easily fooled to think that any idea not 100% in line with their ideals is fascist. im so glad sargon made his video about starship troopers that cover this in much more nuance then this pathetic review.

[@TheMajorStranger]

I remember hating your video when it came out about this adaptation. I couldn't understand how you didn't seem to get Verhoeven was spoofing the ultra-fascist tendency of the author in the book. Glad to watch you do it again! Also very happy to have stuck around for so long and see you evolve into what LiA is now. Good work Dom!

[@jessielefey]

It wasn't so much that he didn't get it, as it was irrelevant. He started out with very strict notions of What A Proper Adaptation is, and love it or hate it, agree with whoever's politics, you gotta admit that on a very technical level the movie is an offensively bad adaptation. On purpose of course and excellently done absolute mockery of its source material. But that's beside the point; the quality of the movie wasn't the question he was asking at the time, just the accuracy of the adaptation when his standards for that were at its strictest. He's asking much broader more nuanced questions about What Makes A Good Adaptation now. So he can give the movie the credit it always deserved. I lowkey wish he didn't private the old one, though I get it. I just find the contrast useful, like it *really* epitomizes the growth and exploration he's done since then around that baseline question.

[@TheMajorStranger]

@@jessielefey This was his first ever video and for me he did not really express that point clearly he was only looking at the adaptation side instead of doing a more rounded dive into the movie and the book. As someone who is quite progressive and also a fan of the movie I understood and saw the movie for it's intent as a big middle finger to fascist idiots who would not understand the satire and take it at face value. The fact that dom completely disregarded that very important part of the adaption was a miss for me and judging from Dom's own admission in this video I would argue he agree with that statement as this is something that is now part of LiA identity to go beyond what's in and what's out of the book.

[@sgtmarcusharris4260]

Heinlein wasn't really fascist Guy campaigned for fucking Upton Sinclair His ideology was more libertarian than anything

[@335chr]

Because the author wasn't super Fascist

[@NextToToddliness]

​@@TheMajorStranger Even as a little kid, I knew what they were poking fun at with the Starship Troopers movie. Robocop is a bit more veiled in its themes, but even those are pretty clear upon a retrospective view of Verhoevan's work. The level of satire surrounding Americana, National Exceptionalism, & Blind Capitalism are so obvious, and I love how he & the rest of the filmmakers took an ode to fascism and turned it into a glaring farce. Maybe because I grew up watching the likes of Stripes or Monty Python, but many other people didn't seem to get what PV was saying with his work. I don't think most people will ever understand Showgirls, and I think that says a lot about how lacking in self awareness most people live their lives with, Americans especially. Furthermore, as far as adaptations go, I'd much rather see a criticism of fascism, than an obvious circle jerk to it. The fact that most people saw this as an earnest action film, just goes to show that people will literally only see what they want to see. On the metric of an action-adventure, yes it's lacking, but it wasn't really about any of that. And, it was so obvious, even a child saw through it.

[@JadeRedglare]

The bugs' methods of invasion and planetary defense may make little sense, sure, but THEY'RE 40K TYRANYDS AND WE LOVE THEM.

[@Alfje17]

When book Rico became an officer, he commanded the Roughnecks and therefore also his father, so I'm sure the both of them had a lot of great talks and no awkward moments whatsoever!

[@jamesatkinsonja]

There is a nice bit in the final chapter of the book where Rico says 'I turn to my Sergeant' who is his father and they have a father/son moment before going into battle.

[@Alfje17]

@@jamesatkinsonja Been thirty years since I've read the book, so wasn't sure if his dad was his sergeant, so thanks for making me remember that part!

[@sylvarogre5469]

Very good video redemption! Bravo! Also: People who claim Heinlein was fascist after reading Starship Troopers, as well as people who claim he was an oversexed hippy after Stranger in a Strange Land, remind me of the quote by S.M.Stirling - "There is a technical term for someone who confuses the opinions of a character in a book with those of the author. That term is Idiot."

[@clownpendotfart]

The characters in Starship Troopers aren't even fascist.

[@morthasa]

That "10% more subtle" line made me crack up

[@korganrocks3995]

The funniest part about that is that the movie was TOO subtle for some people who unironically cheered on the fascist human society depicted.

[@liamscott1905]

How fascist of them to not want to get annihilated.

[@whocares6757]

​@@korganrocks3995no it's just that you don't actually know what fascism is.

[@korganrocks3995]

@@whocares6757There's two different groups of people cheering on the human society in Starship Troopers, and I was referring to the first group, aka the people too dumb, ignorant or distracted that they didn't notice Verhoeven's obvious nazi esthetic. The second group are the one I assume you belong to, who claim Verhoeven doesn't understand fascism and this doesn't qualify as fascism because x, y and z. Kudos for at least knowing something about the matter, even if you're missing the forest for the trees.

[@whocares6757]

@@korganrocks3995 there's nothing Nazi like or fascist about the society in Starship Troopers. All you're doing is proving your ignorance about these terms that you throw around so flippantly.

[@Onnabote]

I grew up in a deeply conservative household, and Troopers was released when I was 13. As a newly pubescent boy, I fully realized this movie was mocking my family (and my family didn't) and I loved it. Shit isn't subtle. My mom read the book later and it was pretty great watching it finally hit her that she was the baddie.

[@19jez89]

Which part of either the book or the film mocks conservatism exactly? You're aware conservatism isn't the same as fascism and/or militarism, right...?

[@macmcleod1188]

I thought the knife in hand scene was a good insight on just how good medical tech was. A knife thru the hand is a 24 hour problem you are expected to shake off. This paid for the latter severe injury being healed.

[@SayianWizard]

The book does explain why Rico's father didn't contact him. Partly shame at telling him to never come back after Rico enlisted, part chaos after the attack making communication difficult and once he enlisted the war and training got in the way.

[@floraposteschild4184]

I read several of his other books: A Door Into Summer, Have Spacesuit Will Travel, Stranger In a Strange Land and some short stories, and was shocked when Heinlein was portrayed as a fascist when Starship Troopers came out. Now I've read the book I can understand why. But I urge anyone who just know him from the film to read further -- there is much, MUCH more to Heinlein than that. "-- All You Zombies --" is particularly up to this minute in 2023, for instance.

[@g00gleisgayerthanaids56]

You didn't read the book, or you have no idea what fascism is.

[@niai69]

There is, however, and I've read nearly all his works, a distressing amount of incest in his later books.

[@jamesespinosa690]

@@niai69 Supposedly he was and his wife were kind of slutty.... Make of that what you will!! x3

[@eacaraxe]

Oh, Starship Troopers is entirely a paean to fascism -- so long as you're not well versed in neoplatonism, or have an agenda to push.

[@merphul]

@@niai69 I think after he started really exploring the Lazarus Long character where inbreeding essentially reinforced the long life genes, it set the stage for crazy incest as this inbred subgroup of humanity would tend to repeatedly breed back into itself. From an academic sense Lazarus married many of his descendants several generations removed, but he'd been having Howard children for so long that he basically couldn't marry a Howard that didn't have a notable degree of consanguinity. Heinlein tries to hand wave some of this away by stating that incest is a social construct (which isn't completely inaccurate) and that what matters is the gene chart comparison that almost all Howards avail themselves of when they decide to have offspring. But then LL was easily one of his most popular characters and so he was being brought into all the crossover novels he wrote with his other characters. Can't have crossovers without Lazarus and can't have Lazarus without incest (at least for Heinlein) so everyone ends up adopting "enlightened" incest because the doctors say you can boink your kids/sibs and not have genetically damaged children. He didn't HAVE to include that in all those stories but I guess he loved the gimmick as it tied into his libertarian view of "you can do whatever you like if logic/science say it's ok".

[@aprildriesslein5034]

I am a big Heinlein fan while also acknowledging that, yeah, a lot of his writing is super weird and kind of problematic. I will point out that in the Starship Troopers world, you don't have to do *military* service to gain the right to vote, just some kind of public service, including options for any kind of disability. The main character sees military service as the most prestigious kind, which may or may not be the general attitude in the world. That makes the whole thing a lot less problematic to me, as I think a couple years of (optional) public service, with guaranteed income and the opportunity to learn some skills, would actually be a great thing to implement in the US.

[@Argonnosi]

Heinlein's essential idea was to present a system that maintained the general recognition and protection of the natural rights of the individual while at the same time avoiding the collapse of democratic systems to the slow, hedonistic grindstone of the general masses. The reasoning for the U.S. rules of suffrage are, in their own way, explored, and his solution to the problem was to develop a meritocratic republic. And, honestly, I think it would work pretty well. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYfTiqmMZbRqq6s

[@Alex-cq1zr]

@@Argonnosi Nah. It is a disaster waiting to happen, because once you start allowing such a power imbalance, it might grow. If a part of society lives in society and, if it can, works in society, it should have a right to influence the society. And of course, the biggest problem is that it allows those in power to dictate who exactly can influence society, which can devolve into a system like fascism. All in all, everyone's right to vote is usually best for society, provided plentiful opportunity for education and such. Even just allowing state to strip a criminal's right to vote means that a seed of corruption can just jail it's opponents and thus remove them from the fight.

[@IejirKothar]

You mean like Biden is DICTATING that we allow million of non citizens to flood out country? heinleins system addressed the very rot we are living through right now it was quite prophetic.@@Alex-cq1zr

[@juangalton999]

Have to disagree. More government and more centralization is never good and only makes it easier to manipulate if it got into the hands of corrupt individuals.

[@Dracinard]

@@juangalton999 As opposed to lack of government and decentralisation, because private companies are so much more difficult for corrupt individuals to manipulate? I just don't trust deregulation not to result in that exact same issue, but with the power collected by corporations rather than government. I'd argue that centralisation and government control is the best approach for a number of key utilities - *if*, and only if, that government is regulated by a robust and open democracy (i.e. not Starship Troopers, for a start). I have more power over my votes than my money, and so I want my money to hold less power than my votes.

[@wearwolf2500]

Starship troopers 2 is fascinating as it takes a hard swerve into horror town. There are scenes in that movie which still haunt me to this day.

[@zombieslayer2016]

Honestly kind of surprised he didn't mention the fact that the power armor actually does show up in the series just that it's in the third movie Edit that'll teach me to watch till the actual end of the video

[@giloguy101]

Yeah, like i know that some of the cheaper effects are downright goofy (flash light guns lol) but at the same time the scene where the bugs infect that guy and crawl down his throat is just....just so much nope....all of the nope.

[@fabrisseterbrugghe8567]

Re feminism in Heinlein: his female characters were sooooo much better than Asimov's that I didn't care about some of the other aspects. Podkayne of Mars was my pre-teen introduction to sci-fi (partially because I didn't recognize that A Wrinkle in Time was sci-fi), and I remember being astonished that she was Maori, not white like every heroine I'd ever read before. I also think people miss one part of Heinlein's thesis in Starship Troopers that people complain about the government without respecting those who served in it. There were so many possible jobs besides military that could get you citizenship, but they could be more difficult to qualify for. As someone who grew up in a military family during and after Vietnam, I liked the fact that my mother's government service (working as a secretary for ATF and the American Del. at NATO) would also have gotten her citizenship in Heinlein's world.

[@krankarvolund7771]

There's female characters in Asimov's works? ^^' Like, I've read at least half of his books, and I vaguely remember a female character that is mainly used as a love-bait for the big bad guy in Foundation, and that's it XD

[@mattrobson3603]

Azimov just wasn't great at characterization in a lot of his works. There's a reason he's remembered more for his concepts and worldbuilding than for his storytelling. Heinlein wasn't great either (most of his characters tended toward extremely competent pragmatists), but he at least gave some thought to stuff like dialogue.

[@nightfall3605]

Podkayne! And her genius brother! Well, I have no reason to pick my teeth at you! 😸

[@carlos_takeshi]

Susan Calvin is the protagonist of probably half the robot stories.

[@stephennootens916]

Well one has to remember he served during world war 2 when the idea of self sacrifice for the country and how we are all in this together were big.

[@ThreadbareInc]

Might also be worth mentioning that Starship Troopers (the novel) came out just after the Korean War, so there's also a reading of the work as jingoistic anti-communism decrying the relatively weak conclusion of the most recent American war.

[@markhamstra1083]

Even more directly, Heinlein himself said that he wrote the book in response to a political ad in a newspaper advocating that the U.S. unilaterally suspend nuclear testing, President Eisenhower’s decision to suspend nuclear testing, and the continued nuclear testing by the Soviet Union. Heinlein wanted to crank up the heat on the Cold War, and he embraced the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned of. The argument that Heinlein just liked to push his stories to the extremes and didn’t necessarily believe or advocate for what he wrote doesn’t really work for _Starship Troopers_ because Heinlein himself said that he was trying in the book to explain and advocate for his own beliefs about politics and the military. While Heinlein didn’t express a single, consistent set of beliefs throughout the entirety of his life, by the time he was writing _Starship Troopers_ he was well separated from the kind of socialist politics he embraced in the 1930s and before World War II and the nuclear bombings of Japan changed him radically. By this phase in his life, he was doing things like creating the Patrick Henry League to advocate for more nuclear weapons testing and a more militarist society. From what he said and did, it is abundantly clear that _Starship Troopers_ was more than just a thought exercise for Heinlein.

[@alexanderrahl7034]

In the book it states "services guarantees citizenship". And the recruiter mentions long windedly that war isnt often a thing, that people take a 2 yeat term and their ranks get so bloated that they find work for the person to do. Youre allowed to quit at any time, even "an MI can resign at any time, even right before a drop, get paid off and sent home without citizenship and an incomplete term of service." Literally your company can be about to do a combat drop into hostile territory and you can be like "uh. . . Nevermind i quit." And thats that, you get paid off and sent home. Its "an all volunteer force" and "we have to accept you because that is your constitutional right. If we test you and cant find work for you, we will make work. If youre foolish enought to be blind and in a wheelchair and still want to join up, we will stick you in a corner somewhere to count the hairs on a caterpillar by touch if we have to." The society in the book wasnt "fascist" at all. It didnt adhere to the ideology of fascism with its prescriptions and rules. It was more akin to that of a military beaurocratic "libertarian utopia".

[@Bluehairedgirl89]

Thank you for all the work you put into this Dom! Robert Heinlein was always one of my favorite authors as a kid, ironically because of this movie. My love for his work has waxed and waned for various reasons including the accusation of his politics. Buts it’s nice to know that their are other people out there who see that Heinlein was a bit more complicated than often portrayed.

[@LoneWolf-rc4go]

@@grimjoker5572 As far as I'm concerned the main reason he's disliked is that he pointed out the potential flaws in Liberalism. I tend to find that the reaction to criticizing moderate left wing thinking is to be labeled as far right or fascist.

[@geraldwashington6588]

His society is left of center. Workers (public servants) own the means of production (voting through citizenship). Not fully classless, but its essentially operating like a glorified workers union. Peoples reactions on his book just show the lack of true critical thought left in this world.

[@geraldwashington6588]

@@Itcouldbebunnies collectivism is socialism, it’s a form of owning the means of production. Have you not heard of a co-op or a Union? Lol

[@belindaluna2067]

@@LoneWolf-rc4go What were some examples of this in his work? A lot of sci-fi writers of speculative fiction were reliant on straw man; how was he different?

[@geraldwashington6588]

@@Itcouldbebunnies labor is considered a means production in praxis. a collectivized workforce is considered an aspect of workers owning the means of production, or self agency. Read a book…youngling…before you reply and remove any doubt of your level of intelligence

[@NelsonStJames]

Definitely among one of the few "in name only" adaptations that I actually appreciate and enjoy maybe a slight bit more than it's source material.

[@wafflebroz]

I’ve always said the movie and the book are both great for entirely different reasons

[@BewareTheLilyOfTheValley]

Damn, didn't even realize this videow as a half-hour long, you did such a great job with providing the details, it flew by. I never saw the original, lol. Great video!

[@aguspuig6615]

4:00 wait i thought it was any sort of civil cervice, the military being maybe the fastest or surest way to get it ''service guarantees citizenship'' but its not the only way.

[@kronos661]

It was. It was simply that novel focused on militarny.