Verin Sedai: A Wheel of Time Character Deep Dive!

[@Mido-128]

"Half turned to leave, she paused and looked back over her shoulder at him. Her dark eyes were unblinking. Suddenly she did not sound muddled at all. “You could do far worse than Cadsuane for an advisor, Rand, but I doubt you could do better. If she accepts, and you truly are not a fool, you will listen to her advice.” She glided away through the rain looking nothing so much as a very stout swan. Sometimes that woman frightens me, Lews Therin murmured, and Rand nodded." -Winter's Heart, Chp 32 One of my favourite quotes about Verin within the books.

[@Wouldyoukindly4545]

That was after she considered poisoning Cadsuane?

[@Mido-128]

@@Wouldyoukindly4545 yes, after she decides that she can be trusted.

[@chrispilkington8662]

I think Verin is genuinely one of the smartest characters we see full stop. She found the Black Ajah by accedent (and obviously enough to be 'invited' in not have an accedent) I don't think she is at all scattered I think it's a shield. The woman wrote books on the plants and animals of the Westlands (that we can only assume are fully cogent) that contained the encoded secrets of the black. I think everything we see if her outside the final scene is a mask

[@siriusb22]

Verin was the only one who wanted rand to be rand. Moraine wanted him to be a king, egwayne wanted a puppet, siuan wanted a servant. Verin understood rand was a force of nature. Everyone else knew but didn't understand exactly what that meant. The only aes sedai that came off as a truly good person was naynaeve.

[@kmallory100]

Verin Sedai was one of the most important sisters as far as plot goes.

[@sidheaine8440]

I STILL Cry my eyes out every time I read or hear that paragraph. I am honestly crying at this second.

[@TheDevler23]

I have a tortishell cat with a half black, half brown tabby face, named Verin. She is also purely motivated by the desire to know. She is afraid of exactly NOTHING and curious about everything that exists.

[@robertronson8666]

The fact that Verin discovered the black Ajah. Then had to join or die. Then she decided to destroy them from the inside spent decades doing it in secret and succeeded makes her awesome in my eyes.

[@happyyet5387]

knowing she was risking her place on the wheel in the process... Arguably one of the most selfless and ironically enough heroic characters in the series. Props to Robert Jordan for making this member of the literal bad guys so (yep, repeating words lol) heroic.

[@happyyet5387]

Again, to emphasise: she was so in character that even the reader was unable to tell her true allegiance till the last few moments... It is a level of precision and talent with the spycraft side of things that I consider unmatched in most Fantasy and Sci Fi, both in the character and her story, as well as the skilled use of forced perspective and inherent character biases as the characters around her all offered their perception by both authors, and honestly, is a teachable masterclass story that will show master level use of both the above concepts... Forced perspective is an easy tool to use for most, but suffers for it because of this perception... Using Verins arc as a top tier example of the incredible potential to story that it can provide or even create, while not having to be used as a railroad/deus ex machina/rocks fall situation, or hell, any similar style of negative fantasy/fiction trope can help show people the power of this oft misused very underappreciated tool in the writers perspective kit. Funnily enough, Brandon Sanderson is also very good at this, although he really uses it more sparingly in some of his series then others... Stormlight Archive, as well as the entire cosmere are currently my fav fantasy series on the go (only beaten by Sara Douglass' Battleaxe series of... 12 books? 15? Somewhere around that number anyway. Bird men, forest men, magic system that uses song, para dimensional demons related to and actually being personifications of various human weaknesses with true hard sciencey lore and gradual explanations... And a buuuuutt ton of violence, magic, prophecy, gods that are actually kinda awesome and a link to the earth of today. Book 1 is called Battleaxe, give it a try :D), and he does similar with SA for example, although i will admit with onlya smidge less talent than Robert Jordan, and i really mean smidge - BS just needs a bit more time, and honestly, even now... Well, there is a reason RJ chose him to finish WoT, and also why he is an incredibly well regarded writing professor. Oh, also, he talks to fans and is passionate and invested in the conversations going on about his creation and all its minute specifics. All 3 of those things... Cosmere is amazeballs.

[@Wouldyoukindly4545]

I didn't suspect she was Black Ajah. But I 100% knew *something* was up after she was a POV character using Compulsion in book 7.

[@Sir_TophamHatt]

That scene in the prologue (i think) to book 7 was a pretty big hint to her being black ajah, since she says something which is pretty heavily suggested to be a lie. Edit: just saw another comment pointing out that we actually catch her in a lie already in book two! Apparently she says she was sent by moraine, but we later hear from moraine that she decided to come on her own.

[@talmanes4589]

This might have been your best deep dive yet. Big props to the caller who brought up the parallels between Verin and Ishamael. I've been reading and reading WoT since the early 90s and there isn't much I haven't considered but that was a brand new idea and I loved it.

[@TheDustyWheel]

Thanks, Talmanes! I've loved these last two episodes. Gotta do more theory and character deep dives.

[@AthenaNike71]

I started suspecting Verin was Black Ajah when Moiraine said she had not sent Verin to Mat, Perrin and Rand in “TheGreat Hunt” and that Verin had done that on her own (contrary to what Verin had told the boys). I thought “OMG! Verin LIED!!!”. I couldn’t believe it, as I had liked her straight away - and I wasn’t 100% sure, I thought maybe I had misunderstood what she had said… or worse - that Moiraine might have lied (although I thought it highly unlikely)! It never occurred to me, though, that she might be a double agent. I was so happy when she revealed that to Egwene. And devastated when she had to die! One of my all-time favourite characters! They need to keep those two moments from “The Great Hunt” in the TV series, for the non-readers to have a chance to figure out Verin’s role in the story!

[@TheDustyWheel]

Starts at 2:54! SPOILERS FOR THE ENTIRE BOOK - What are your thoughts about Verin? What were your answers to those Verin Polls? What else about Verin would you like to have us dissect in a 2nd episode?

[@saralee4thewin]

When we first meet Bors he sees an ink stained aes sedai. Perhaps where she learnt about Rand?

[@wyvern723]

I didn't think Verin was Black Ajah until she admitted it. That being said, I never thought she was some befuddled academic lost in her research. Under that pleasant librarian mask, she was terrifying. She was, ultimately, a hero of the light, but she was absolutely *not* a good person. Verin is one of my favorite characters. The build up... That slow burn to the final reveal... It was beautifuly done. I really hope they do her justice in the tv series. I think you are right, that she didn't want people to trust her because she couldn't be trusted. She was the ultimate double agent. Deep cover for decades within the Black Ajah. I cried at her death scene, but my brain also did the thing "Verin isn't a White..." I do agree that the Aes Sedai don't get out into the world enough. If the Yellows alone went around as itinerant healers, the Tower's rep would gave been very different.

[@davidmaxwell4696]

Honestly though, the Yellow ajah could do so much for the Tower's reputation with the common folk if they just went around healing people instead of mucking about the Tower.

[@jamescompton5780]

2:54 - Intro, Guest Discussion 7:45 - Verin Discussion Starts *SPOILERS* 11:50 - When did you first become a fan (or not) of Verin? 18:55 - Poll - 58.5% were not suspicious of Verin 19:55 - What are Verin's characteristics 30:48 - Verin is clever, Great Hunt Quote - Verin meets up with Ingtar 34:18 - Did she lie or just Aes Sedai twisting? (82% say the is lying) 39:05 - Verin is more than just Brown Ajah 53:08 - Is Verin a good person? (80% yes) 53:15 - Verin's Brown Soul 59:57 - Opening the Call-ins. / Was Verin the best-written character? 1:02:05 - First Caller - Verin was so alone in her quest 1:06:44 - Second Caller - Verin is parallel/antithesis to Ishamael 1:11:32 - Third Caller - Verin is one of the most influential characters. Scene with Cadsuane 1:19:13 - Fourth Caller - Does Verin's character fit into the overall themes of the series? 1:25:02 - Last Caller - Verin's letter to Mat 1:32:22 - Portal Stones 1:34:35 - Tel'aran'rhiod 1:38:11 - Final Thoughts

[@HallyVee]

"Moiraine sent me." Sent me where? When? Intentionally? There's TONS of room.

[@cizoripmos8249]

Those deep dives are always a treat. Keep the good stuff coming!

[@TheDustyWheel]

Thanks! Can’t ever get enough of talking Verin!

[@Playaplaya18]

So after watching this, I continued reading where I left off at the start of the Great Hunt, and just finished the chapter where Verin reveals what she knows to Siuan and Moiraine. And she claims she's known they've been up to something since "nearly 20 years ago"!!! Verin is a certified badass, and I'm so excited for this reread and all the clues and hints I didnt pick up. Also, Prophecies of the Shadow. It talks about Slayer almost right from the start, so I checked the Companion on it, and oh. My. God. The connections in this world are so vast, so amazing, and hinted at so soon but dont come to fruition until 13 books later. I get why this has been your series since you were a teenager, Mr. Inkeeper. It's certainly going to be mine as well.

[@TheDustyWheel]

It's a blast, and while it can get old for some, if there is a natural curiosity and excitement for a reader to make connections, then the enjoyment can be endless. Because as you said, there are just so many. When you get to the part where Egwene goes up to Verin's room and gets the ring, notice the slip of white she sees just about as she gets to Egwene's room. Clearly that was Lanfear. :)

[@Mawlivander]

Verin is a resolute chaos magician. Great deep drive, lads! May you find water and shade!

[@1971stevan]

Verin Sedai and Martine Janata are two of my favorite characters...both were written masterfully. Both endured evil to change it. Verin with the Black, Martine with the Seanchan...they were sisters to the end even if they did not know one another (though they probably did). And yes! Martine did her best to play both sides! Just not Black Ajah, but Seanchan. Tuon loved their talks, but remember when Martine helps Joline escape...Martine needs a deep dive too!

[@tracepaper]

I remember reading when Moirainne denied sending Verin, which sent me to the web...finding Theoryland and reading about Verin. It sent me down the wormhole. I read ever article and theory on the site and it made me start reading the books with a more critical eye

[@Linnir]

Such an interesting character, very determined and pragmatic. So much hope she is in the show. A smaller role but essential, even if just for that one scene.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

Awesome community! And kindly notice of spoilers! A boon for future readers to eventually dive in upon reading further into the 📚 book series and the show!

[@TheDustyWheel]

I can't wait to do another Verin livestream! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

@@TheDustyWheel the few minutes before the kindly spoiler warning! And previous content! Always do! just wanted to leave a kudos before exiting! 👁 of 🌍 🌎 🌏

[@ramspencer5492]

After Moraine's letter to Rand, I was waiting and going over her scenes with a fine tooth comb.... Expected some long game plot to pull strings for the Shadow..... No obvious moves were coming.....Didn't know what to think..... The twist made me fall in love the character.

[@ryansutter9434]

Season 1 isn’t even out yet and I’m so excited to see her in future seasons! Season 2? 🥺

[@TheDustyWheel]

She and Lanfear will be the castings I care most about...I can't imagine they won't both be in Season 2...that would be crazy.

[@alyssap9233]

Verin is my sixth favorite character in the series and probably my favorite side character of all time. She is so interesting and her death scene hurts me more than any other character (Egwene is my favorite character, but her death is so badass that I often forget to be sad while thinking about it) As far as whether or not she is a good person, I think it's important to remember that her intention was to be a double agent. Even if she h ad failed, that wouldn't change the fact that she was doing this for a greater purpose. You can disagree with her decision to stay with the black ajah, but I don't think you can justify saying she was a bad person.

[@TheDustyWheel]

It's such a tough place to put the reader, which is what I loved about Master of the Deck's call regarding themes; I'm just glad we don't know what atrocities are being referenced in The Wheel of Time Companion, even though the Brown in me wants to know.

[@diljeetsinghnarwal]

Who are your other top characters? Numbers 2, 3, 4 and 5?

[@alyssap9233]

@@diljeetsinghnarwal This order changes all the time, but right now my top five are Nynaeve, Mat, Rand, Moiraine, then Egwene.

[@TheAmyrlinSeat]

42:29 I don't remember when, but this reminds me of something graendeal said about Mesaana. She wondered if Mesaana had only joined the shadow to further her studies.

[@robertbryce3225]

Good morning all! Wow, just wow. Love me some deep dives into great characters. Just a thought, probably a bit soon, but how about an episode on Setalle Anan? The second best innkeeper in all of the wetlands? Have a good one

[@mase0913]

I just found your channel and love it! I also just recently finished reading the series for the first time in Jan. 2023. I am now doing my second reading (back-to-back, I am crazy). But Verin was one of like my top 7 characters. As y’all said, she’s one of the characters with a fantastic arc and development. I did not see her twist coming. When we got the glimpses of her doing some ‘compulsion’ on captured Aes Sedai, I started questioning her. But I never thought she was evil. I know I’m 2 years late, but one of the questions discussed was whether Verin was bad because of “atrocities” committed. Well, we never know what she did. But my hypothetical is: if someone kills 100 people to save 1 million, are they evil? I think this would be Verin’s thinking. She knew that whatever evil she did, arguably in the name of good, would never be as bad the Dark One taking over the world. Sorry, just wanted to comment because I loved Verin’s character. And yes, Verin’s end justified her means. Also, you mentioned not liking Cadsuane - what?? After my first reading, I think Cadsuane was my favorite person. I just wanted to throw that out for maybe a future discussion about her. 😊

[@TheDustyWheel]

Welcome! Congrats on finishing the series. There are a quite a few videos here that might interest you. The discussion about the Pipe, Nakomi, Asmodean, and more. I hope you stick around. Join us live, if you can.

[@JackofDaShadows]

Matt! Your shirt is awesome. I have the sword and dragon queen tattooed in the same spots!!! Love your stuff sir!

[@diljeetsinghnarwal]

I am so bummed that I missed this one of all the live streams!!! Verin being a black sister was spoiled for me before I actually read the reveal, but it was still so well done. A great great episode and the callers brought up so many interesting points. The best part for me was the parallel that Josh and Zack made - you needed a dedicated Verin to bring down what Ishamael (who's a masterful and an OP character) had set up (the Black Ajah). That just adds to Verin's badassery! Her death is one of the moments that made me shed a tear 😔

[@kathrynmcallister4525]

Regarding the Verin/Ishamael connection, consider that these two characters definitely met in the early books. Back when Ishy was still "Ba'alzamon" to everyone including Darkfriends, he must have appeared to Verin in the Great Hunt. How else would he have been able to shout at Rand while in the Portal Stones world that the "women of Tar Valon" told him what he is? Hmm, there were three women in the room, and one was Verin. Literally his next sentence is that some of those women are his followers. (this is the other clue in book 2 that Verin is shady) At this point the man with the flaming eyes is considered to be the Dark One. Yet you have Verin in the next book reading a fragment of an old text linking the name "Ba'alzamon" to Ishamael. I think that she met him in her capacity as Darkfriend and realized he wasn't literally the Dark One, and was researching which of the Forsaken he had to be.

[@kathrynmcallister4525]

Also Verin is 100% an autistic character and I'd love to see that discussed more!

[@aryanlusandra]

I got suspicious of her in The Gathering Storm Chapter 36 when Mat pointet out that she played a game with the Preconseptions others had of browns he called her a street performer I belief. I read the books in German so I sadly can't quout but I loved this chapter :) the doppel Agent I didn't saw coming

[@davewade30]

I remember being suspicious of Verin on my first read through. When she identified Rand as the Dragon Reborn raised some suspicions, but I distinctly remember really questioning her motives when she gave Egwene the dream ter-angreal in secret.

[@fearsengar6341]

Having spent so much time of my life absorbed in WoT. I've done the whole series dozens of times physically reading it and also listening on Audible whilst working. I can say once you know Verin is Black its obvious but on the first read through its a bomb 💣. On future reads there are a couple of occasions where Mr Jordan let's us know. There are a couple of occasions she lies. Read Verins interactions again and you will find them.

[@sdube001]

Same here. I think my reread-relisten count is over 40. About 25 for all 14, somewhere more then 20 for readings before re the series was finished. I've RPed a Verin inspired character on and off since book 5.

[@amysthe-wise-one8493]

I hate that I missed this live stream. Verin is probably one of my all-time faves. I honestly missed the twist multiple times until KoD came out. I looked for the twist and once I saw it and was boggled and then blown away with how incredible RJ made it.

[@ShafiqaIdris]

Verin always confused me in the books. I remember wondering if she had lied when she said Moirraine sent her but she didn't seem to be doing anything bad and I let it go. I did wonder about her again when she was making those compulsion-like weaves on the captured Aes Sedai to make them swear to Rand, but I couldn't figure out how that would help the DO. I didn't even know that she was viewed as the person who manipulated Alanna into bonding Rand until I saw that theory online. That last scene with Egwene when Verin explained & gave the journal and Egwene told her her soul was white like the Light got me crying. Verin really is a well written character. I can see that she did bad things but can understand how she got into that position. I respect that she made the best of her situation and decided to go undercover to learn as much as she can to the benefit of the Light side. She even found a loophole in the oath that allowed her to openly work against the DO in the end. I do wonder what she saw in the flicker worlds in TGH. Did it affect anything she did afterwards? I remember Matt having a very strong reaction regarding his actions towards Rand. I agree that she wisely used a scattered mannerism as a façade. It might have even helped her avoid enacting some dark plans. I'm glad she had Tomas to help her get through those years. I agree that it would have been harder on her to go through this alone.

[@dalehenrickson6243]

When I read it I grieved for Verin.

[@menkaureecr]

I thought that Verin was very protective of Rand.... like that scene when she thinks about killing Cadsuance. Also, the great purge was indirectly for Rand's benefit. Also the use of compulsion to make the Aes Sedai pledge loyalty to Rand.

[@conservwarrior74]

Her curiosity about everything leads her to believe that she could join the Darkside to study them and not be affected by it, only it turns out she could not get free of the grip of the dark one.

[@HallyVee]

"Until her last hour."

[@Discivilized1]

In many ways, Verin seems to be Robert Jordan's version of Sheldon Cooper as an Aes Sedai.

[@zacharygaume4395]

I'm late to the party!! Verin.... Ugh, you rockstar! After that wonderful parallel to Ishmael, you guys were talking about her loneliness. I just want to point out something about Verin's loneliness; maybe a small comfort. Given the character traits you provided to describe Verin, I have found comfort thinking that she may not have been as lonely as you thought. Her love of knowledge, the tenacity she demonstrated for discovery was her company, ardently. All the more potent in her younger years. I don't know if this reference will make sense or not, but I see a very strong correlation to Liana T'soni from the Mass Effect series (video game). Like Liana, loneliness likely wasn't even considered until the stakes or pressure increased. Thomas likely satisfied a need she wasn't even aware of until the stakes grew higher. I could be way off base, but I like the idea that Verin was married to her work. Her work was her companion, her love and her life until a need was recognized. Thomas, was the answer to that need while also providing the man a way to make right his wrongs.

[@ambrossialynn4041]

Of course Verin was good, she was willing to kill Cadsuane if Verin didn't get the right answers about why Cadsuane was getting involved with Rand... nobody messes with the Dragon Reborn with Verin around... **sniffs** not even Cadsuane!

[@HallyVee]

That could be either for good or evil.

[@rd6416]

I don't know that I liked Verin in my first read but I was definitely interested in her. She was knowledgeable and intelligent immediately relevant. I realised early that she was black Ajah, but the way she was written still kept her a mystery to the very end.

[@MrJballn]

The way she conveys distraction, it can't be that good without some serious method realness, and I think that makes her this perfectly sympathetic double-Ajah lol. I feel like she sacrifices so much of her sacredly held headspace to this constant philosophical grapple with the dual allegiance she took on to know it all, and she never shied from the task as mentally exhausting as it sounds (and makes some dark weight to the way people in character observe her distraction so curiously.)

[@MrJballn]

Her "lie" demonstrates her struggle, she's playing self deception as a point of honor to her Brown Ajah identity. She's gotten to a point of disassociation with her Black Ajah identity, encapsulating with great difficulty as a curiosity with a cost, not seeing her ability to lie as an advantage.

[@MrJballn]

It's a little like Anakin > Vader > Old Obi Wan of a journey of burden to me.

[@MrJballn]

Efff, imagine what that pocket in Tomas' head felt like with all Verin's complicated layers, it's really unfortunate "virtual Warder bond" isn't a KZbin Live feature yet 😂

[@MrJballn]

Or Corianin was Black as hell, worked to seal Dreamer knowledge away for the Black going forward, and was kind of a proto-anti-Verin, her earnest commitment to the dark as a Brown gone Black falling into complete obscurity, dismissed among her own, the only long lasting impact being hobbling the Aes Sedai as a whole in Tel'aran'rhiod because of the wild lengths Corianin went to to convey Dreaming a mystery too high to be learned.

[@MrJballn]

Whitecloak fanaticism having it's infancy in the White Tower, I would buy, but that's the closest thing to a Purple Ajah I'd buy. The White Tower took itself to mean "good," so a secret good society would only be fascist or "nationalistic" for the Light as a rallying point for radicalization.

[@TheAmyrlinSeat]

I started loving Verin from the start

[@LuckPuddle]

I missed the Verin episode!??? Nooo I had a piece of foreshadowing I wanted to see if other people thought was real...

[@TheDustyWheel]

...do share! Sorry you missed it, but I'm sure we'll revisit Verin again.

[@LuckPuddle]

​@@TheDustyWheel OK... haven't watched the show yet to see if it's mentioned, but I'll blurt it out first. So this is in The Gathering Storm. pages 535-536. Verin is giving Mat grief on page 535, and the last word is pointedly "Verin". Flip the page, the chapter is call a "Halo of Blackness". A subtle connection of an aura of Black and Verin. And if you want to go Christian with it - what is Verin other than an angel hidden in the Black Ajah? Thoughts? It made me pause when reading....

[@sheafferw]

The great hunt should have showed us all that she was black. With that quote then moraine says at the end that she did not send verin

[@Spthomas47]

We should have, yet I don't think any of us knew the depth of foretelling RJ was setting. Even still... I def didn't see it coming

[@HallyVee]

A) that could also have meant Moiraine was Black. B) he deliberately left it vague. C) maybe she was just free of the Oaths not Black. There were always too many possibilities to determine completely. By design.

[@TheWitchofEndor-1]

Im fairly certain by that point in book two we don’t know that aes sedai can be released from the oaths by swearing new oaths to the dark one

[@mlebrooks]

I liked Verin immediately. I had a teacher named Vera I liked and it means truth like verify

[@OldCavtrooper22]

Verin is an awesome “always on the side of the angels” character. This theme is repeated in so many epics, but MJ rocked it with Verin. Examples: Prof. Snape, Harry Potter. Detective Miller, the Expanse. The supporting Vampires in the Iron Druid, and Mercy Thompson books to name some of them. Edit: something missed on Samantha’s call. Mat fails to open the letter. Ok, perhaps. The time line was not clear here as to whether he actually broke his word. Remember his bargain with Verin. However, in my head he would have had a choice. Follow the letter’s instructions and possibly save Carmlyn or fail to save Moraine and sacrifice the pattern itself.

[@Tithulta1]

Should I reread the entire series prior to the show airing? A bit conflicted about it myself. I’ve read it as they were released and listened to the audio books as well in the last few years.

[@TheDustyWheel]

I'd say it could be fun to re-live the initial two or three, but I wouldn't rush a full re-read before the show airs.

[@hiltrud2001]

I'll definitely will listen again! I need a link to the companion to order it!

[@AthenaNike71]

I’ve read the series a few times, so I listened to the first two audiobooks.

[@bravery12329]

Up untill the twist I was kind of meh on her but then after the twist and a second read of the series she is now one of my top five characters

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

This says more about Egwene than Verin. It's Verin's self justification. I felt sad for who Verin could have been.

[@benbutler9282]

did Verin kill Corianin Nedeal successor to protect the Black - we know how Alvarin feared a foretelling - is this one atrocity, taking the life of a sister and explains her having the notes. counter is that Aei Sedai protect thier dreams - but Dreaming has fortelling aspects. Verin did have the Notes and ring after all

[@Michelle.Legare]

This will sound a bit odd but try to imagine the sunset and sunrise. In one, the sun sets and darkness enters, giving way to the stars, darkness and the cosmos. With sunrise, the darkness recedes from the brightness of the sun but the cosmos fades within that brilliance. I think of Varin as one who walks within the path of the cosmos, staring into the void and using the darkness as a path to the galaxies. She uses that light as her guide within the darkness. In this sense, I don't see her as good or evil but rather as a navigator.

[@Dark_Walker_]

I truly don't understand the controversy about Verin lying and being bound by the Three Oaths. Verin was Black Ajah and could lie at will. While I don't remember any proof that her ascertion if being sent (or suggested) to accompany the quest to recover the horn ever existed one way or the other, it is a great tell when she loses her temper after the encounter with the Whitecloaks outside of Tar Valon when returning with Mat and the dagger so he may be cured.

[@chickenmonger123]

When she went after Rand and ended up with Perrin, I was suspicious. However I didn’t really think she was Black. Mostly I just wondered what she was getting at. When she was fiddling with Compulsion was when my interest peaked. Chasing down Mat was… Highly suspicious. Until she met Egwene though I still didn’t think she was Black. Just mysterious and holding secrets.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

I entirely missed her Black Ajah double agent thing the first couple times I read the books. I wanted Moraine back and I felt like Verin was a poor replacement. When she showed up in the Two Rivers and flat out said she was there to hunt for girls, I thought wait, did she just lie? Wait. What?

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Now I think Verin lied when she said Moraine sent her. At the time, I thought I just missed it when Moraine sent her and I wondered what the hell Moraine was thinking because I didn't think Moraine trusted Verin. Maybe it happened off stage? So I thought, huh. Then I forgot about it. When she said she was in the Two Rivers hunting for girls. Then I knew she was lying.. But again, only caught this on the second or third reading.

[@anitkythera4125]

Verin is to Ishamael as Galad is to Graendal That's why Galad stayed good when faced with the realities of his time when Graendal abandoned the life of aceticism.

[@Linda-pc2qh]

I just Thought. If Egwane hadn't had questions and the desire to know more about dream walking she might never have studied with the Aiel and became as strong as she was.

[@RachaelTheFirboldDruid]

Stream starts at 2:55

[@jsbrads1]

How did Verin get out of telling the Black Ajah that the Horn of Valere was in the Tower. Beginning of book 3, Verin arrives with the girls and Mat and she walks into the Tower with the horn. What did she tell the Black Ajah she had in the bag?

[@bencowles2105]

I've read over 5000 books. My average is three to five a week. It really is not that hard to do. Especially over 40 plus years of reading. (okay that is a pretty big plus closer to fifty years.) The wheel of time books are definitely top of the list of my favorites. Verin is definitely one of my favorite characters from the series.

[@anitkythera4125]

Fwiw Deontology devolves into consequentialism. You follow a rule because it is determined to be good... because it results in something of value. On consequentialism, Verin is a good person. As for your dad crucifying you...well, dad's have that prerogative.

[@debbiegailey4188]

This is after the program: but one of Verin's atrocities would be "Compulsion". The fact that it seemed you guys couldn't identify an atrocity makes it seem that it isn't looked upon as being bad. And she had no remorse, possibly regret but never remorse.

[@KabbalahSherry]

But is something like that really an "atrocity" I mean... you can argue that it's bad or not a nice thing to do to somebody. But calling it an "atrocity" IS a bit of a leap. Did it lead to their deaths, or ... to the death & suffering of many? What she did wasn't some horror, even if you dont like it, still... I dont think it does qualify as an "atrocity".

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

I know it's too late for this and it would be too weird for Vera fans but in my fantasy world Verin should be played by Brenda Blethyn.

[@TheSavePointDreamer]

2:54 😀

[@TheDustyWheel]

I appreciate that!

[@JamesKGood]

You had to drop the Lanfear comment 😂😂👍

[@TheDustyWheel]

What did I say?? And where?

[@JamesKGood]

@@TheDustyWheel Lanfear your favorite written character, thought it was funny since the show was 1 year ago, or you knowing the story back then etc etc with recent news

[@johnridderhof4505]

Not sure it was a lie, she was only 3 that knew who rand is and at that time Moraine had to do or was off doing something else she had to do. So the only option was Verin. Unless I forgot where it was proven a lie by Moraine. But even if she was lying, she already sworn herself to the dark one and freed from the oaths.

[@RedHuntsman]

My question is why didn't Egwene try to heal Verin when she realized Verin had poisoned herself as a result of not finding the rod? Eqwene knew where to find it.

[@TheAmyrlinSeat]

she had too much forkroot in her

[@JamesKGood]

Egwene wasn't able to hold enough power at the time, because of fork root potion

[@armandog3335]

No was my vote

[@anitkythera4125]

Maybe she committed fashion atrocities?

[@matthewstringer5675]

Spoilers below. This has nothing to do with Verin this is just a question I was hoping to get help with. So I’m currently on my second read through of the wheel of time and I’m on (the dragon reborn). I was just wondering in chapter 15 when Egwene and Nynaeve are attacked by the Gray Man, was Sheriam the one who killed him? In my first read through I always assumed there was a second Gray Man like Egwene and Nynaeve feared and Nynaeve’s questioning of Sheriam was both the girls fears of not knowing who to trust. But now knowing that Sheriam was actually Black Ajah was this one of the first signs of her being a dark friend? And was she the one who tried to kill them?

[@wyvern723]

Very possibly

[@jarock-wh9lj]

Pretty sure that's revealed to be Slayer. I do not have a reference for it though.

[@matthewstringer5675]

@@jarock-wh9lj oh cool thanks I’ll keep a look out for that, I loved these books on the first read but there even better on the second.

[@ophel1a]

@@matthewstringer5675 And even betterer on the third, and even bettererer on the fourth! That's why I love WOT. It's timeless, and full of seemingly endless dang surprises!

[@GiSoxfan]

Why does the loophole exist? I love the character, but without that loophole, her end is completely different. It has always seemed awfully convienant. That's the one thing that really bothered me about Verin's story.

[@scipiojoe2686]

How about eclectic

[@qboz23]

wheeel of time chat groups that are not on discord

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

I reject the premise of your question. Is Verin a "good" person? She is a complex person. Like everyone. Is Rand a "good" person? "Sometimes" is the real answer. Does intention change anything since anyone and everyone justifies their own behavior? That she even WANTS to walk in the light is what makes her complex. But is desire moral or are actions moral? Can you torture someone because you want to save lives but enjoy the power? What does that make you? Dick Cheney said essentially if there was a 1% chance someone was a dark friend then you could torture him. REALLY? REALLY?

[@anitkythera4125]

Archivist? Kind of the opposite. She's a field researcher but not a librarian. She's an influencer not a manipulator. Manipulation implies getting someone to unwittingly do something that is against their core values. It feels like if Verin took the time to explain everything, then people would see things as she does (good folk anyway). However there isn't time and she doesn't know who to trust and can't trust the chance that exists for anyone to say the wrong thing at the wrong time etc so she's a pragmatist and is keeping as much information as possible to herself and doles out only what is needed to keep the quest going forward, to keep answering the questions and to keep driving towards what she thinks needs to happen. It's not even performance, it's just pragmatism with respect to her mode of interaction with others. If a certain affect will be the most effective way to get what she wants then she uses that mode. It's pragmatism through and through. But she has no time for organization lol

[@tomislavcehajic9642]

This 15 books are most overated books of all time especially books 7-10

[@natenichols9569]

I don't get the motivation to lie. When will ingtar even speak to moraine again?