The Sole Survivor Problem | Fallout Theory

Have you ever thought that all of fallout 4s issues can be traced back to the Sole Survivor? well you're not alone. join us as we discuss this theory and try to determine whether Nate and Nora truly fallout 4.

[@notawarcultspy8994]

I think my problem with Nate and Nora is that Bethesda wanted their cake and to eat it, too. They wanted a main character that had a predetermined personality/goals like Shepard or Geralt, but also a character that allowed for players to **be** the character, make their own choices. Imo, the Sole Survivor should have been designed more strongly one way or the other, instead of being on this weird place on the proverbial fence that ultimately satisfies few. The Sole Survivor just isn't as interesting/engaging a character as Geralt of Rivia.

[@brysonbob06israd41]

i feel the same way but i think this also fits pretty well with cyberpunk too, they made a character but also want it to be u aswell

[@PedroLimaPTS]

Fallout 4 sits on the fence in every aspect.

[@TheStewieOne]

The reason why it didn't work so well is because of the person that wrote Fallout 4.

[@bilfbunter2248]

​@@brysonbob06israd41I will say V's 3 backstories has much care and effort put in than both Nate and Nora's backstories. But that's because bethesda just want to bake their cake and eat it too.

[@BasilDesius]

>Bethesda wanted their cake and to eat it, too. They wanted a main character that had a predetermined personality/goals like Shepard or Geralt, but also a character that allowed for players to *be* the character, make their own choices. And also the strawberry of not putting enough work to give player actual decisions to make.

[@snarkywriter1317]

I refer to it as the "Minuteman Problem". The linear narrative was fine, and I totally empathized with Nate (since honestly I'm basically Nate IRL), but the game's structure doesn't seem to want to go to the lengths needed to support the linear narrative. The earliest example of this is in Concord. You rescue the Quincy Survivors, and Mama Murphy tells you that you need to go to Diamond City and continue the primary narrative to find Shaun. All good. However, *immediately* after she says that, Preston asks you to come to Sanctuary and help them, and if you do (you likely want to just for the sake of regrouping after the major set-piece you just finished), you are derailed into the "help settlements" gameplay loop, which is more traditionally sandbox. Even if you ignore them, as you near Cambridge on the way to Diamond City, you are prompted to help the Brotherhood, which again immediately derails you into the Brotherhood radiant quests and the Recon Squad Artemis quests. All of these questlines mostly physically drive you *further away* from Diamond City. The design feels like BGS wasn't sure if they wanted to commit to a true linear narrative or not, so they kept trying to intrusively pull players back into their more traditional sandbox design.

[@zacharysilver911]

I absolutely agree. One thing I struggle with in my runs is what order to do all of the early quests would make the most sense? Do I try to justify my character helping a couple settlements and the BOS as a way to gather resources and allies in an unknown world, or am I just trying to justify my total derailment from my ultimate goal of finding my son. It doesn’t help that as a player who knows the story, I don’t have any personal desire to find Shawn too quickly because I think he’s a jackass and the only benefit to finding him is access to the institute and the rest of the main quests.

[@MrJuliansnow]

To add to this, if you're really playing in the mindset of Nate and Nora, everything should be driving you to find your son. That's the problem I have with the story telling. Not a case of "I have a backstory" but the "I saw my spouse get shot and my child stolen" narrative is honestly too strong a driving force. Any conversation with Preston and "do you want to help a settlement" should have had an option of "I can't, I have to go and find my son". Every time... all the time.

[@J.B.1982]

I agree too. They could of created a simple off shoot to every faction quest interaction that involved asking for help finding Shaun. You get sucked into the MM and BoS and at no point does the sole survivor step up and ask or demand for help. That should be an option at almost every new quest point. The Railroad too.

[@broomhilder]

I feel like it’s great for people who love the somewhat “blank slate” the protagonist has (in terms of the character’s personality) and can be a fun way to sort of “tell your own Fallout story” within the game. Did my character go on the path to find their son first or were they impacted so greatly by Vault 111 that they went and turned raider before choosing to try and find their child? These story telling aspects can be very fun for certain gamers. Unfortunately, this choose-your-own adventure turns off a lot of Fallout players (myself included most of the time) who prefer more linear storytelling with good pacing and adequate story beats that have impacts on the protagonist and other characters. Perhaps Fallout 4 was too “middle-ground” for its own good.

[@broomhilder]

Side note: want to shout-out the other commenters on this thread for your long-form responses. Personally, I love hearing other people’s detailed opinions on topics like this 💚

[@dragonheart5312]

A way I have found to make the world more open is to remove one of Mama Murphy's dialogues, where she mentions where to go to start the journey to find Shaun. She can still give you the option through her, but you have to give her chems to fuel the sight. Each time she just give helpful tidbits like normal. Each time requiring a harder and harder drug. The drugs should be relatively obvious that , if the escalation continues, she will die. This give a moral conundrum where, in order to know exactly where to go, you have to kill Mama Murphy. The majority of people will not accept this and reject and potentially reform Mama Murphy to quit the drugs. This leave a level of dispare for the sole survivor to wander aimlessly, and potentially after 'giving up' on finding Shaun, find a clue where he might be. This allows you to invest more deeply into the other factions in the vain hope that they might be able to help you find Shaun

[@erinsilver3920]

After Mama Murphy refused to accept her chair right in front of her, she and the darn chair had glitched out into the ether on my next visit to the settlement. So after Diamond City mention and something about underground (?) I’ve been on my own on the story line. This is the first time playing the game, so I didn’t want to restart. I think the quest tree did mentioned to go see Valentine. So I didn’t lose the thread completely. But yes, with the plethora of settlement designing, quests and locations i didn’t get to Diamond City until 20 ours in.

[@gp9850]

One issue I had from the protagonist from Fallout 4 is if they give a set backstory to our character, Nate and Nora should've had their backgrounds have an effect to the characters build. Nate, being a veteran, could have a buff to strength and endurance. Nora, I believe she was a lawyer, can have a buff to charisma and intelligence, maybe perception. Bioware games have you build a background, but they take an affect on the character's build. Without the usage of skill points like pat games, this seems to be the only place to have it.

[@-libertyprimev1-902]

Yeah like instead of making sure Codsworth could say some odd 3,000 player names put that time and money into a more indepth version of the "s.p.e.c.i.a.l. lines" Fallout New Vegas had (and to a lesser extent Fallout 1's Character Builds), for those unaware they took the time to record Doc Michelle saying a bunch of different lines dependant on your highest or lowest Special Stats. (Say you had a Charisma of 1 he's gonna insult your looks because of the scar, or high Luck he's surprised the bullet didn't turn around and shoot Benny) Fallout 4 could've done this where depending on all your Special Stats you're assigned an equivalent backstory, which also causes slight differences in events in the game or story. (Say you had a Perception and Intelligence of 7 or higher you're considered a master tracker and don't need Dogmeat to locate Kellogg)

[@averyaustin1]

This is so word for word how i feel, i question if you've read my mind before?

[@Destroyer_V0]

Hell, even just starting perks like nate starting with one level in some, of the combat damage perks, representing his training with the US army. he was infantry after all, would at least be familiar with automatic rifles, semi auto rifles, pistols. Nora having local leader, for example, as her starting perk. However, perhaps a journal or something can be found in the prologue, where you can further add to your starting perks. Ie, is Nate familiar with explosives, perhaps he was the unit armourer, and has starting levels in gunsmithing and the like. Nora having again, her own unique starting perk choices.

[@gp9850]

@@Destroyer_V0 That makes more sense actually. Why would a former combat military member have the same combat stats as a civilian lawyer and vice versa.

[@jimcalhoun361]

Exactly. According to a terminal in the Fraternal Outpost, Nate is a Medal of Honor recipient. Why is it possible for a new player to get his supposedly trained ass kicked by a band of raiders?

[@IchamukoI]

My problem with the Sole Survivor is that you are pretty much dumped into a sandbox but also have to play as a certain character. The settlement system, The Nuka World DLC, and even the games own story all try to reinforce that you have your own choice as the player not as the sole survivor. But when you play as the sole survivor, it's entirely different than what the game around you is built for. You're constantly reminded that you are not your own player, but rather are Nate/Nora. This is reinforced with every time you talk to a character with things like: the dialogue wheel, the voiced player, and the characters and world around you trying to remind you of your story if you go off the beaten path. If they wanted to do a set character like this, I don't think fallout is the best series for this. Especially when it's staple has always been player choice, not character choice.

[@alistairgrey5089]

You nailed it. Fallout is a sandbox first and foremost and having a linear style protagonist just doesn't work in a Fallout game.

[@bennettjb2010]

This reminds me why BG3 is so good. Other characters often check in with me, ask me how I feel and what's motivating me. They point out things I've done and choices I've made, and even comment on how my current view contradicts past statements or actions. Sometimes this helps reorient me to the characters background, other times it seems to indicate character development as the circumstances change the characters outlook. All in all, it keeps me connected to the character, whoever they are becoming.

[@i_am_ergo]

Foof, that is some kind of well-worded argument, let me tell you.

[@Sorain1]

It's a poor decision for a mainline Fallout title. Claim your spinning something off, offer up a classical story focused mainline game in the future, and FO4 would have been better received as it was made, and/or could have gone full 'predefined character' to do that right.

[@DarthAwesome117]

Late to the party, but I think it would be perfectly fine to make a fallout game with a pre-set character and a linear story, that's engaging and fun. But you actually have to make it work, and give the player choice on how they want Nate/Nora to evolve, and what choices they can make. If you don't if you chicken out or half ass it, it just doesn't work. No matter the game, no matter the setting, it doesn't work. Fallout 4's biggest problem to me is it's trying to be two or three different stories at once: One story about the minutemen and their struggles to rebuild, one story about the synth question and the battle between big factions, and finally a story about a parent whose son was kidnaped and spouse murdered, and whose entire world died. You can make a compelling story from one or even two of these, but if you use all three together it just makes everything shallow and meaningless.

[@TheImmortalBloodwolf]

Actually I think the problem is that a lot of people who play bethesda games Don't want a preset character Because we don't want to play as the same 2 characters every play through. We want a blank slate character Because then we can Fill in the blank slate With a different set Back story and motivations every time.

[@CaioDiniz-r3g]

Yes, I played skyrim like a hundred times, always with a completely different style in both skills and personality. Same with fallout 4, but much more limited thanks to the fixed back story

[@Destroyer_V0]

There is actually a way to have the best of both worlds. To use an example with nate, we know he served in an infantry battalion. And he was a war hero of some renown via in game lore. But what exactly was his role? What did he become well known for doing? Having the choice of this, would be a start, a way to change things. Perhaps retrospective thoughts on it, written into a journal or holotape at the start of the game, give you starting perks. Same goes for nora, we know she was a lawyer. What cases has she worked, what were the results, were there any thoughts on the nature of the laws of the US she held? Another option, is hobbies, for both genders.

[@thunderspark1536]

@@Destroyer_V0 Indeed, it's odd they never let you choose WHICH of these you are.

[@ComeAndLookUponTheHeart]

Yeah that's a really basic and good and one of the most fun parts of starting up an RPG game.... Idk why grey seems to think it's totally irrelevant to be able to make your own character ... Ppl who like RPGs do not go to other game franchises and ruin it for their players base but everyone else comes into our series and demands everything be dumbed down and railroaded into a simpler story system It's not like it's impossible to have something of a predetermined character it was done before in fallout where you start as a vault dweller or you start as a tribal etc but you're allowed to make them be whoever you want they don't have the weird contradictory predetermined depth dialogue and personality, those three things completely kill the idea of you building your own story path as you progress the main quests and it's replay value

[@Hav0ck23]

Yet most of you bitched on starfield character creation which is open to choise

[@Reksoch]

I also think that it's not only the writing of the story that has a negative impact on Fallout 4 but also how the player interacts with it, being limited to 4 options in dialogue is alright in small interactions but our options in important conversations like with Kellogg and Father are too limited. In my opinion the backstories of our protagonists is fine, some of it is set in stone but we're not given too much information. so there is enough room to come up with our own character's backstories.

[@BigKat96]

I agree the options are limited and since they're not written out like in previous games it can lead to unexpected problems where the choice is "no" but if you select it you call whoever you're talking to a fucking moron and lose ability to talk to that person and get negative karma from whoever you're traveling with.

[@Shadow30.]

kellog imho shud be a dificult companion to get or just let him live becose hes right

[@privateuser3726]

The Fallout New Vegas part was incorrect. I was a kid for my first playthrough so I didn't realize the fight for the dam was the main quest (it wasn't out at the time, but for a comparison, I thought it was something akin to the Skyrim civil war) so I went and did the quests for the NCR to win the battle of the dam and never once interacted with benny. So it is entirely possible to do the main quest and never look for benny, you would only need to find him for the Independent of Mr. House endings

[@praetorurbanus2917]

In the spirit of your "5 Easy Fixes" schtick, I propose the below 5 fixes (I leave the question of their 'easiness' to your judgement) to the Sole Survivor (assuming we stick with the design choice for an empathetic protagnist): 1) Commit to the bit and have your chosen character affect your player build. Nate is a soldier, and should therefore have higher starting strength and endurance (say he has a baseline of 2-3 on these instead of 1), be better at the combat parts of the game with rank 1 of Rifleman/ Commando, Steady Aim, and Gunslinger already unlocked, and give him more HP and AP to spend. Nora, meanwhile, is a lawyer. She should have higher starting intelligence and charisma, with Cap Collector, Local Leader, and Medic (say, from taking care of Sean) already unlocked, and give her a bonus to persuade chance. 2) Change the SS's flavor of dialogue in the game. Nate is a solder and should talk like one. He should be more openly aggressive in tone (to reflect the training for violence), rough in his language and his persuade dialogue should focus more on "I'm trying to find my son, and I have no problem _extracting_ answers to my questions." Nora, the lawyer, should be more precise and classy in her language, more conciliatory in tone (initially-like any good mother she should get passive-aggressive in response to stonewalling), and her persuade dialgue should sound like it's out of a business negotiation or the initial meetings between the prosecutor and a defendant. 3) Tailor the player's options in quests, chiefly for finding Shaun, but not limited to that. Nate's options should be influenced by his military training, and be characterized as very direct, even if not actually violent. He wants to achieve the objective and move on, in the interest of speed. Nora should be more focused on investigating non-violent solutions. Maybe she uses her investigative education to find ways to blackmail or bribe people out of your way, where Nate would just shoot them. 4) We need more meaningful interaction with Shaun before he is kidnapped. That requires making him old enough to talk to and have more-than-basic conversations with; I'd make him about 15 and give at least one pre-war quest that involves helping Shaun with a problem he's having. Two would be better, one that you could solve as either parent, and one specific to dad or mom (whoever you're playing). Making Shaun an actual character, with a chance of taking care of himself, and not a baby, eliminates the ludo narrative dissonance in the urgency of finding Shaun. Giving the player an actual connection to him helps the player care about him and want to find him, while letting the more sandbox-focused players justify taking their time on the premise that he's almost a grown man and could save himself. And the big one 5) Let Shaun's character as an adult reflect the player's decisions in the game to that point. The broad strokes here are the karma system; good player karma = good Shaun, evil = evil, etc. This would require making Shaun one of a governing board instead of the autocratic director of the Institute, and changing what he wants from you in the Institute quest-line, but it could be done. And would honestly help the faction feel more believable, since an academic institution would probably follow the faculty governance structure of tenured professors and department chairs, with a dean or something as the chairman of the governing board. If he's good Shaun, he joined Virgil in advocating the shutdown of the FEV lab, he supported the CPG (and hates the SRB for sending a Courser to kill them) and wants your help to purge the Institute of the various other directors who've been stonewalling his attempts to put the resources of the Institute (which are great) to use helping wastelanders. "What is the point of science," he'll say, "if it provides no benefit to anyone?" Evil Shaun is the opposite, and focuses more on what will advance the Institute, to hell with anyone else.

[@hanzzel6086]

I love these suggestions.

[@Sorain1]

I really like that you went with 'child reflects parent' instead of 'whatever you pick, Shaun is the other direction' because that 'always your enemy' is cheap drama I am sick and tired of always seeing in stories.

[@thedarklord4808]

With Nate being more aggressive it would make sense if he had some really dark lines since he is canonically a war criminal (you can look it up if you don’t believe me) or at the very least he has committed few war crimes

[@penguinsrockrgr8yt216]

So I’ve played the game with mods that wipe the Nate/Nora backstory, giving you control over a random wastelander instead The first quest is changed, it takes you to vault 111 and you find the body of Nate/Nora along side a holotape recording of the kidnapping and you go right back to the original plot What you said about the lack of a backstory changing nothing is true

[@hanzzel6086]

One big difference, you have a reason not to care, to put off doing the Main Quest for your own personal reasons. Nate/Nora does not, not without coming off as assholes who never really cared about thier family.

[@yerite2521]

As some other comments have said, I think the biggest problem is the dialogue system, not the pre determined characters. It makes sense to give the sole survivor a story before the bombs instead of just "you are from the pre war America now somehow finding yourself in a destroyed world 200 years later". Ive never been too fond of Bethesda's insistence on a mission to find a family member cause its kinda hard to care, but I personally love roleplaying a character like Nora/Nate. Completely unfamiliar with the current world and they have to adapt so the players choices arent exactly dictated by the pre war story given to the characters. Buuuut then the dialogue system just fails in every aspect and it never feels like your actions matter much

[@courier8365]

12:02 That’s not entirely true. NCR questline does not require you to kill Benny or get the Platinum Chip at all. You can completely ignore him if you want.

[@crptpyr]

yeah you can literally go through the game without even meeting benny on an ncr playthrough

[@chaophim1680]

Same with Skyrim. If you don't kill that first dragon, you can do a ton of quests without being forced into that storyline. Yeah, you miss out on shouts, but if on PC there are a few mods, I'm sure, that will give you alternative means to unlock them like converting perk points to dragon souls, etc.,

[@MinosML]

@@chaophim1680 90% of shouts are underwhelming compared to normal magic anyways.

[@BigKat96]

My problem with the story is the search for your son because it sets an almost unkeepable sense of urgency, like if you were just searching for your spouses killer, that'd be fine, but setting the pace off the get of "I need to get my baby back" makes a sense of a mad dash for answers that is almost immediately side tracked. like you start off looking for clues and lead and it quickly devolves into doing a million different things with only a minor random dialog option of looking for Shaun that gets a "damn that sucks" from whoever you're talking to. In 3 or New Vegas, there's an inevitable serch and conclusion, but especially in NV, the goal isn't time sensitive it doesn't matter if you find Benny in 2 weeks or 2 years. Realistically if you're looking for your baby without the Fallout 4 twist of Saun being an old man when you find him you could expect shaun to be dead by the time you capture the Castle for the Minutemen or by the time the Pridwin flies into the commonwealth.

[@CrawfordPrime]

I wanted to say that I love fallout 4, and was hooked from the start. I was about 19 at the time and remember the first time I saw the opening and overall I enjoyed the mature, somber, yet epic story of a parent trying to find their son. I could almost imagine what it was like to live in that world being Nate with Nora (maybe they met in college or somewhere in Washington then moved to Boston) about to start a life only to have that taken away. It always made me ask “if it were me in that situation, what would I do?” On a side note, I recently downloaded the Nora companion WIP mod for Xbox and I love it, it’s a new way of playing the game with both sole survivors from before the war trying to find their son in the wasteland. It’s almost feels like a fresh story

[@Sorain1]

Okay, now THAT is a great mod idea. Gigantic project (that new AI voice cloning tech makes a lot more feasible) but absolutely one worth pursuing.

[@thenerdlog1602]

This reminds me of a review of fallout 4 from a long time ago. It claimed that there was little to no extrinsic reason to roleplay as Nate. Beelining the main story to find your son isn't what Bethesda wants. There are very little callbacks to your time before the war besides asking people about Sean. It's the reason why so many people can play through with alternate start mods. If I tried to play Witcher 3 while roleplaying as someone that's not geralt, it's going to be extremely unimersive.

[@courier8365]

Do you remember which video it was? I’d like to watch it. Unless it wasn’t a video.

[@yourgoodfriend276]

I disagree on the idea on the condescending insinuation you make that people don't want a sympathetic protagonist because it's "icky", I would say it's quite rare for a person's entire game library to be made up of games with blank-slate protagonists, let alone media in general. I do agree that people don't want it in Fallout 4, but they don't want it because that's not why people buy Fallout 4, nor what Fallout 4 tries to be. Despite being the Fallout game with arguably the most *gameplay* choices, the most variety in what a character can play as, one of the biggest worlds with a myriad of situations where you can choose to act how you wish, the story is the most railroaded (pun intended). There's a huge level of disparity between the gameplay of this character who might be a melee combatant with a knowledge of medicine who always answers sarcastically and kills any settler he finds and the story having them be this emotional caring husband and father. That isn't a "difference in style", it is an incongruous writing and story decision that not only goes against what EVERY OTHER major Bethesda RPG does, but goes against itself. It's a flaw. That isn't at the fault of the character itself, nor is it some kind of thing that shows that players are spoiled brats for noticing, it's just a story that doesn't work in the setting it establishes. Nate or Nora would be fine characters, even enjoyed, if they were in a different style game. You argue that Fallout 4 itself is a "different style" from other Fallout games, but that difference is really ONLY in story, and while some customization mechanics are simplified, they still are at the forefront. While the open world doesn't change as much, it is still at the forefront. While settlement building, crafting, exploration, all have near no bearing on the story, they are at the forefront. It builds itself in every way BUT story to be as sandboxy as possible. Even moreso than EVERY OTHER BETHESDA GAME. Fallout 4 is the closest example Bethesda has to purely being sandbox due to these customization options and in-world manipulation. And yet you're arguing that people playing it looking for a sandbox are incorrect in some way. Nate and Nora aren't bad or disliked because they are established, that isn't players not wanting to be empathetic, this isn't the audience not being emotionally mature, the fact that you bring up other VERY POPULAR games that have characters with set stories really backs this up, even citing things in previous games. They are disliked because they are strongly established characters with almost no deviations from this character in a game that has a setting, world, and especially gameplay, that all point to this being a game where the player chooses the personality they wish to play. Again, you point out Mass Effect, The Witcher, Red Dead Redemption 2, as evidence that these characters can work, that players can be emotionally mature, and yet you ignore that a great deal of people who play and dislike the story of Fallout 4 LOVE THESE GAMES. That isn't the fault of the players, that IS absolutely in Bethesda's control. The entire point of telling a story is to get the audience invested, if you cannot get an invested audience, that is not at the fault of the audience, as evidenced by, again, the multitude of games you did and did not mention that manage to get an invested audience with the same premise. I commend your effort here, I love your channel, I love your other videos, but I feel this is an awfully contradictory take that only defends an awfully contradictory character-world dynamic, and it does so in a way that comes off as really condescending, and ironically, unsympathetic to a side you argued could not be sympathetic.

[@yourgoodfriend276]

@@Theegreygaming Then why did you paint this opposing strawman that players didn't like them because they lacked sympathy, because they didn't have, quote, "emotional maturity" and because they thought something like that would be "icky and for chick flicks"? It really seemed intentional to me.

[@shorewall]

​@@yourgoodfriend276 I agree. This video seems to place the blame on the player for not wanting to "empathize" with a written character. Like you say, many who didn't like Fallout 4, do like other games where you do play as an established character. But I'll go further, and say that I really don't like playing games with set characters. I like playing my own story, and that isn't wrong. Fallout 3, NV, and Skyrim are some of my favorite games because I can role play myself in the game, not just play a set character that I may agree with and like or not. I like Fallout 4 when I can pretend to be myself, and while I'm not up in arms about the set character background, it always takes me out of my immersion. And as even the video and your comments show, the game didn't follow up on that set character background. So why defend it? Which is easier, to write a better story, or to create a blank slate to allow players to fill in the blanks? I'd argue the set character background had potential, but the longer the game goes on, the more it tears at the fabric of the game.

[@BoberBoomMan]

Thank you! Blaming the players for what is clearly Bethesda's faulty writing is imo an unfair take. Bethesda didn't put much thought into how to implement set characters in a meaningful way in their own game and this lack of focus really shows as you play it. Nate and Nora feel like protags from those aforementioned games but inserted in an entirely different game with you awkwardly playing with them as if they belong in it. And its a shame because this problem could be fixed if the writers committed to them as set characters but no, as others mentioned before "Bethesda wanted its cake and eat it too" so they gave you these characters and backstory where you have to rush to find your kidnapped son and avenge your spouse's killer but then just insert a million things that don't relate or add to the story that make it less of a priority and more of a second thought which if you add in the fact that these are supposed to be loving and caring parents that will brave the wastes of post war Boston for their lost child? Yeeeah not a good look. Honestly i want to say if the writers don't put much thought or care into their characters then why should anybody? And to call us "Immature" for it is just dishonest at best

[@Steve-sw3vn]

I agree wholeheartedly with this analysis. Fallout 4 isn’t a bad game. I’ve sank similar hours of gameplay into this as I did with Fallout New Vegas. Are there elements I don’t love in a Fallout title, such as that it forces me into an empathetic perspective and doesn’t provide me a less linear play style? Yes. But that’s not what makes this game bad. It did not do enough leg work to make me actually invested. It tried to give me a motivation derived from empathy, but when I wasn’t expecting (nor wanting) that when booting the game up for the first time, it put a bad taste into my mouth. It’s not that the approach wasn’t okay to do - I’d have loved a Fallout title that went a different direction if it had only made me actually care more.

[@HydraKittten]

People Don't Often Remember That New Vegas Had A Protagonist With A Set Backstory, Its Alot More Subtle, But The Courier Had A Life Before The Game, Causing The Divide, Having A Kid, All Things The Courier Has Done, Its Just Not In Your Face, But I Actually Love It, Having A Life Before The Game

[@overlorddante]

Why did you capitalize the first letter of every word lol

[@hanzzel6086]

Here's the thing, 90% of that "backstory" is *optional* player dialog: if you didn't choose it, it doesn't apply. And even if it did, even less of it tells you what *kind of* person the Courier is. They could have been a greedy, self-centered prick, only doing anything for the caps, or for revenge. Or they could have been kind-hearted saints, doing whatever they could to help people. Or anything in between. The only thing "set in stone" is that at some point the NCR hired them to take a package with unknown contents to the soon-to-be Divide, creating said Divide when that package turned out to be the codes to nuclear weapons. And even then, we get that "backstory" from an obviously mentally unstable person. For all we know Ulysses got us confused with someone else, or even outright imagined all of it. The only part of our backstory that is non-negotiable is that we were a Courier who was hired to take a package to the New Vegas strip, we were then ambushed, shot in the head and left for dead, and then saved by a certain robot with the help of Doc Mitchell. You can ignore everything else without affecting the story.

[@HydraKittten]

@@hanzzel6086 that's a completely valid take, i just take a liking to the optional backstory of the courier, as it adds a jumping point for putting you in anothers shoes, at least to me it does

[@hanzzel6086]

​​ @HYDRAKITTTEN Oh, don't get me wrong, I love using existing bactstories as jumping off points. I just wanted to distinguish between the NV and F:4 style backstories. In my opinion, if there is anything we don't see, or we don't say it, and it doesn't have a direct impact on the story, it is optional. I don't have to include it in my role play. It doesn't have to affect my characters personality. But we see get a pretty look at who the SS is. They are a retired (and decorated) career soldier , a caring, loving, devoted spouse/parent. A parent/spouse who is now distraught and grieving, while lost in a world they no longer know, desperately looking for thier spouses murderer/childs kidnappers. That is just too much set in stons for me to rp as anyone other than Nate/Nora. Not without outright ignoring most of the barely utilized back story. But the game actively and simultaneously pushes you to both explore the world and rush to save your child. If you rush to save Shaun like Nate/Nora would reasonably do, you miss out on a ton of stuff. If you don't, you are an asshole who is ignoring your _missing child_ and letting your spouses murderer roam free.

[@HydraKittten]

@@hanzzel6086 thats a good point, i don't know if i made that very clear in my initial comment, but NV's not having the couriers past forced upon the player is really important and it's what seperates it from F4's characterisation, in NV, its there if you want it, but completely ignorable if you don't care for it, the courier is a blank canvas if you need them to be, where F4 has its protagonist more involved in the core story and makes them a fully fleshed out character, both are good in there own way, but i think NV did it better for a roleplaying experience

[@KatarinaDinnar]

I am a female veteran. And if you play as Nora, it is impossible to shed the disbelief that a lawyer that just gave birth ( she was frozen, so I guess couple of months ago ) can survive the Commonwealth. How she knows right away how to use all those guns ? Power Armor ???? My imagination and military experience says that in order to operate the armor, you would have to train for months and months, not just hop in and here you go, a lawyer fighter lol. I am a woman, and trust me, women not in prime and after birth ....just NO. If they made her a military engineer, a power armor developer , for example, that would be so much better ! And so funny when Danse says " We need people with your military experience " - lmao , military experience is not herpes, it cannot be contracted through intercourse.

[@Mr99RAT]

In my own head for nora i always think she retires in military after getting married and got a degree for being a lawyer before having a baby That why she know how to use different guns and also know how to speak your way out

[@KatarinaDinnar]

@@Mr99RAT Yeah, in my head she is military power armor engineer that got a law degree for fun, because she is super smart.

[@mccringleberrytha3rd]

Same I always head cannon that she served in the military as well, because the whole lawyer idea isn’t brought up at all through dialogue. ( at least I don’t recall it did )

[@KenMochii]

Suspension of disbelief for me in that area, the same could be argued for previous Fallout protagonist. Keep in mind one of the preset character in Fallout 1 is a Lawyer too.

[@KatarinaDinnar]

@@KenMochii I never played that, back in a days I was fan of strategies and didn't developed taste for RPGs until later in life.

[@jasonb9149]

That was a very well thought out analysis of Fallout 4. This was my first Fallout game (I'd heard good things from friends, whoch convinced me to play it), and I loved throwing myself into the role of Nora (or "Lara" in my playthrough). In my third playthrough of the game, I'm still thinking of how a pre-war citizen could be overwhelmed by all the horror to have befallen her home, her world, and her family. I wonder what would be the point where, previously being a public defender, she decides that she's had enough with the absurdity of her new world and just snaps. Or does she stay true to her values regardless? I find it to be a lot of fun, and I have spent many hours on the game. Fallout 4 even led me to purchase Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas, which are definitely a different feel, but are still good and fun additions to the greater world created by the Fallout franchise. Yes, Fallout 4 does have some weak parts on the story (thanks to the various mods that have improved this aspect), but it is overall a game that, in my opinion, offers an escape into a strange and fascinating world.

[@DakalaShade]

I don't really mind the little bit of backstory we were given, honestly. It's no worse than Vault 101, being the kid that grew up there. My problem starts the instant we're refrozen for an indeterminate amount of time. On one hand, we have no context for how long it has been. An hour, a day, a week, month, year, decade, or century could have passed while we're out, it's been a few seconds for our character. On the other hand... We have no context for how long it has been. Shaun being old and on his deathbed is no longer really the surprise twist Bethesda hoped to pull off. When we're still in the vault, I can tolerate the panic, the blind hope that maybe we're hot on the kidnapper's trail. What I would like to have seen, however, is that when we return to Sanctuary and talk with Codsworth, and we find out it has been 210 years since the bombs dropped, I'd like an option to _give up_ on the search for Shaun, right then and there. Allow the character to mourn his or her losses. Let Nate bury his wife, Nora, and let him assume Shaun is dead. Let Nora bury Nate and accept that, in this world, her son is dead, or he soon will be. How do we continue the search that leads us to that new potential plot-twist that Shaun is alive? If we've taken that option, when we go to Diamond City, instead of Piper being locked out as our introduction, we see some woman begging the DC security "Please, help me find my baby!" We can't help Shaun, it's been far too long for that, but this woman has lost her baby _recently_. We go to Valentine's Detective Agency and have to find Nick, then get the woman to do the interview. She describes the same man we saw. Now there's a plot hook - Revenge. We can at least kill this serial kidnapper and stop this from ever happening again. Now, to put an additional plot twist on top... When you meet Shaun at the Institute later, have him mention, "When I heard that you gave up on looking for me, you mourned me as if I was dead, I wasn't sure how to get you to come here. I wasn't sure how to get you to cross paths with and dispose of Kellogg for me. I'm glad that the "mother who just lost a child" worked." At that point, have the mother, now dressed in the classic Institute Synth outfit, walk in. "I want you to meet S4-91. Her mission on the surface was to get you to find Kellogg and kill him. I knew once you had done that, you would come here." After all, it makes you _really_ question all those times you went out of your way to help someone. Were you helping a real human, or was that person just a synth placed by the Institute to get you one step closer to meeting Shaun? If the "mother" trick fails (thereby showing Shaun that you're no longer interested in tracking him down or helping fight the Institute), go for plot twist number 3: Send a Courser after you. You kill him, and you find some mission orders that claim that "Father's experimental 4th-generation synth project isn't functioning within expected parameters. We suspect either a bad memory upload, or worse, the unit is going rogue. Unfortunately, there is no recall or shutdown code for this unit, and Father does not want it destroyed." Send a Courser every handful of in-game days, similar to how the Cultists spawn in Skyrim to hunt down the Dragonborn until you start the Dragonborn DLC. They carry identical orders and thereby it reinforces the need for you to face Father. When you get to the Institute after reaching this condition, Father _still_ treats you as his parent - You're modeled after him or her, after all. He explains that "When I heard about the death of both of my parents, I realized that I wanted to meet both of them. The Institute was able to scan their brains, despite both having died, thanks to the cryogenic freezing preserving both of them. I had two units built, one for my (mother/father, whichever is the opposite of your character), and the other for you. At first, I wanted to just have both of you awake, here, in the Institute, to have the memories altered so that you remembered going into the pod, and woke up to being rescued here. We had scientists put you in the pod first, but when we came back to get the other unit, we checked our records and, well... I can't believe I forgot about myself. We went back, pulled you out, put the original memory back in, and retrieved your spouse's body from the morgue. We set the scene up as close as we could to the original, then woke you up. You behaved as expected until you met the robot, Codsworth, where you chose to give up and mourn what you had lost. An attempt to appeal to your parental duty failed as well. Can you explain this?" You get the classic four dialogue choices, though no questions. (Sarcastic, Yes): "I don't know, maybe I wasn't that good of a (mother/father). Sure beats going to buy a gallon of milk and some cigarettes and never coming back." (No): "I'm... Not entirely sure myself." (Yes): "Shaun, I mourned you and my (wife/husband). I learned very quickly not to get involved in the wasteland's troubles, they tend to have bad endings and teeth." (Questioning, No): "Perhaps it was an error? Or data corruption? Maybe damage from the overwriting process?" Either way, Shaun accepts that he couldn't expect a machine to behave like a human parent would. And, yes, this means that the Sole Survivor basically becomes Schrodinger's Synth. Are they one, or are they not one? It's only _proven_ that they are if they act contrary to how they were intended to be played. Up until that point, you're equally 100% human, and completely synthetic.

[@Sorain1]

You know, I really like this idea. It would have resolved a lot of the 'wait, that's a lot of coincidence' situation, and given the Railroad a reason to be watching the vault entrence as established in the game with Deacon. (Seeing Institute activity above ground getting their attention.)

[@tzman215]

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to tell a story with a set character but that's not why I play Fallout games. If they had developed a side game that told Nate/Nora's story and really leaned into the character driven nature that would be really cool, but I've always come to the main line Fallout games to be able to make the character my own (And this is coming from someone who had lost track of the number of times I've beaten Mass Effect 1)

[@painitful]

I think the problem with Fallout 4 is that it is incredibly linear and quite a disappointing game as that good 'ol KISS axiom really is making the Bethesda games worst.

[@djasteress6068]

All fallout games are linear if you stick doggedly to the main story line. It is the wandering and side missions that make them feel less so. I agree that 4 could have used more to push you out to side stories but your desire to discover them is most important.

[@lartonki]

Well i could same to few earlier fallout games i have played, heck even new vegas that so many praise is really linear and short if you are only focusing on main quest

[@vexile1239]

An interesting video, quite thought provoking I feel that you are correct in your closing statement in regards to the story failing the survivor

[@FredDurst00]

I definitely enjoyed my first play through as the sole survivor. Bethesda's writing was ham fisted. Having the option of a different start (I know there are mods) would have been an improvement. Maybe the different backgrounds have minor passive effects or unique dialogues. Little things like that make a game great.

[@arvidsky]

Although I fundamentally agree with your overall statement, I think there is a big, important thing that you left out: The story they want to tell is at a direct odds with the settlement system. The introduction of the settlement system essentially means that you can embark on building the new tomorrow. You can recreate society in your own ideal way (especially if the story had been a bit more flexible with it) This is an amazing concept for anyone who wants to roleplay as whoever they want, whichever way they want (albeit some choices are illogical and/or depend on heavy modding) This is such a big distraction that should not exist lore-wise. The protagonist should not care about building homes for a few random wastelanders, but instead track down his/her son. But no, the game seemingly wants you to get immersed in this system (and storyline), which really has a detrimental effect on getting immersed in the main story.

[@CyberController-]

When I want to be evil in Fallout New Vegas, I write a backstory about how my character has done evil things in the past and what their plans are going forward. But when I want to play an evil character in Fallout 4, I have to RP choices to show *how* this normal person becomes the monster I want them to be. That's so much more rewarding long-term.

[@duncanharrell5009]

They should have treated your first exiting the Vault and conversation with Codsworth as the breaking point. He could have become more moral and a paragon of virtue in a dead and cold world or the Great War became his One Bad Day as Joker would put it.

[@J.B.1982]

I agree with all that. Another thing for me, the whole world feels half-baked and immature. It’s large enough that I got lost in it and didn’t realize certain things till many hours but man, it feels like they wanted to suck in a younger crowd or something. It feels immature and the world building doesn’t account for many things, a solid economy is one.

[@4dealliance598]

Regarding emphasizing the differences between Nate an Nora, I think in Survival more it should take 4 stat allotment points away, and for Nate ad 2 to str and agl, for Nora 2 to int and chr, to refect their professions and specialties.

[@daisythekat707]

I think the biggest problem with the sole survivor isn’t the story, but the lack of a decent speech mechanic

[@hanzzel6086]

That certainly didn't help matters.

[@Xaixiu]

I hate the character of Mama Murphy. It's such a stupid coincidence that the Sole Survivor just happens to meet a woman that can tell the future on their first day out. It's so dumb.

[@Theegreygaming]

that was such an eye roller for me as well, that is one character that I personally would be fine with them removing, but that's personal preference, some people love her inclusion, as it adds to the supernatural undertones that are there in most fallout games.

[@amatiste]

I play as Nora every playthrough. But I have a huge problem with her being a lawyer, and then she comes into the Wasteland an expert gunslinger, power armor pilot, and enough mental fortitude to not just kill, but do so without any effect. I also HATE the main story. Any logical person, the minute they walked out and saw the wasteland, and had no time reference to when Shaun is taken, would assume they were dead and start taking the proper steps to survive.

[@ScarletImp]

Exactly! Nate is a soldier, and has most definitely killed a lot of Chinese soldiers during his stint fighting the Sino-American war. He's a hardened veteran. Nora? Worst thing she probably killed were flies and other insects. A crazed, junked-up raider charging at her and it's 'kill them, or they kill you'? It was the same problem I had with the Lone Wanderer in FO3. You expect me to believe a 19-year-old kid can just walk out of Vault 101 for the first time in their lives and kill someone with no psychological hurdle? They can just blow up an entire city with one press of the button? I get freedom of choice in an open sandbox, but if we're playing characters who, up until the beginning of the game, had likely never killed anything bigger than a fly, there should be something there to address the psychology of what they're feeling when they have to kill their first Raider.

[@amatiste]

@@ScarletImp I have my own backstory for her. She is an agent for the Brits, sent to spy on America, and gets in close with a war hero. She is a trained killer, but hid it. More to it, but that's the gist. I'm a gamer and a writer, so I used to making backgrounds that work 🙂

[@Sorain1]

@@amatiste Funny thing, I put together my own explanation for that, trying to figure out 'What gives maximum logical freedom in making the decisions open to the player during the game?' The result is essentially 'high functioning sociopath'. That particular Nora came to understand she didn't quite fit in, and given the exaggerated 50's style paranoia of pre-war society, put a lot of time and effort into fitting in. The law degree was about learning the norms and rules of society. Being able to take the 'forceful' option was something Nora came to prize and so she sought out a husband who could not just be a deadly wall before her, but would help her to learn to 'defend the family'. Nate happened to be the one she found and pretty much hit all the criteria she could have hoped for. The explanation for her knowing how to use power armor? (Not well, but knowing it at all needs explaining.) One of the things going on in pre-war was bloody soda companies having 'brand ambassadors' using powered armor. He got a job for a little bit doing that, and Nora got him to give her some lessons. He figured it was a way for the hot young lady to bond with and flirt with him, Nora figured that Power Armor was as deadly as things one might get in a crisis would be. Nate was in that backstory a really good influence on Nora, because he was proven to be competent, but showed one could be that AND compassionate. So Nora was doing the happy young mother thing (it being a role in society she fit in with) when the bombs dropped. This neatly explains most possible routes one can take. A Nora that 'adjusts' to the wasteland's lack of anything but the law of the gun could easily be an absolutely horrifying thing, a results focused monster with a kind face hiding sharks teeth. A Nora that takes a higher road could become an example of 'peaceful is not harmless' in practice. Either way, even if Nora isn't a trained soldier, power armor and a minigun is more than enough to see off raiders (and the errant deathclaw) before getting on her way plausibly. One could see that Nora dealing with the apocalypse by being laser focused on Shaun, or setting it aside as a lost opportunity to deal with the world in front of her. The whole idea of 'flexible protagonist for this story' put that together for me after a bit of time to consider it.

[@cygna1237]

In cut content Bethseda established that she served in the ARMY before becoming a lawyer.

[@johnmccall4528]

This problem eventually led me to install Start Me up Redux so I can roleplay as whoever TF I want to.

[@NarbsTheGreat]

One thing I kinda would have wanted is just little tidbits in voicelines upon visiting some locations Both Nate/Nora lived in Pre War Boston, so them seeing how things changed should have shocked them, esp maybe rummaging through their neighbours houses for example etc. Hell would have been nice if say Nate mentioned his time at some random military outpost etc.

[@robertthebard]

So, I'm reading through the comments, and seeing the equivalent to "I'm railroaded to...". Here's my problem with that: In my current playthrough, Kellogg is dead, and I've been to see Virgil for the first time. However, I am still carrying around the Courser Chip. Tinker Tom has worked his "magic" on it, but I haven't done anything with it. Instead, I have focused on building up the Minutemen, and the settlement system, and on building relationships with the companions. Do I want to find my son? Sure, but I'm looking at the world as it is, in universe, and comparing it to what it was, also in universe, and would rather not drag around an infant/young child in that kind of world, and instead focus on a place to "call home" for that child. While I agree that the factions are a weak point, there's a reason that the bulk of my playthroughs are Minuteman, it's not like I was blindsided by that. With the Railroad, on the Tradecraft mission, you can get into a dialog with Deacon that sort of covers the major glaring problem: Which synths are worth saving. I have the Heather Casdin mod installed, and upon entering the HQ, she can ask "So, how many synths are we going to kill, I mean save today". Yeah, it's a third party mod, but it demonstrates one problem with the Railroad. The other is going straight to "blow them up". Shouldn't they have, instead, tried to supplant the leadership with more sympathetic people, instead of putting themselves out of a job? Nothing shocking about how the BOS is portrayed, it is, instead, consistent with what we got in FO3 and New Vegas. In FO3, the Outcasts exist precisely because of Elder Lyons, and their view of how he was straying from the mission. Again, however, why is "blow them up" the main solution? This is the story problem that is laid out in this video, and I tend to agree. At the point where we actually can blow them up, we could instead just take over, and I'd argue that that should have been the primary goal. Lots of tech in there that isn't Synth, and that tech should have been a priority. Here's where I get to ruffle some feathers though, because the Institute is beyond redemption, w/out mods anyway. University Point and Warwick should be prime examples as to why, and yet, there are players that believe that they are the best hope for the future. From my point of view, they are the best hope for the future of the Institute, and that's all they care about. I'm not sure that I can go "the story let them down", because I actually believe that how they are presented is both consistent with what we know from Zimmer in FO3, and what we see and hear about in the Commonwealth. They take people, and either replace them with synths, or run other experiments on them, see the FEV lab for an example, and release the results on the Commonwealth. TL;DR: Yeah, the story failed the sole survivor more than the inverse. Even knowing you're searching for an abducted infant, Preston wants you to devote time and energy to rebuilding the Minutemen instead of trying to find your son. Sadly, I'm not sure how else that could be handled, if they're getting the player to invest in the Commonwealth as much as finding their son. I can justify it for myself, I laid that out above, but it does take player agency to decide to go for it or not, and you can refuse to do it.

[@courier8365]

"I'll find who did this, and I'll get Shaun back. I promise." I try to live up that as soon as possible rather than put it on the back burner and start doing other things. Even if those other things are creating a safe home for my son to live. At that point in the story, your character’s has only heard bad things about the Institute, and has experienced it firsthand when they sent Kellogg to kidnap your son, and ultimately murder your wife. Now, Fallout 4 doesn't spend that much time establishing a connection between the player and their spouse as well as their son, but that's besides the point. I still make finding Shaun my top priority, because that's what Nate promises Nora when saying goodbye to her.

[@robertthebard]

@@courier8365 I get it, and I've done the same. I'm over 2100 hours in, just on Steam, which doesn't count my xbox and GoG when I was using GoG for it. That's kinda the point to what I opened with however, the agency is there to go either way, or anything in the middle. We can choose to railroad ourselves through the story, or we can sandbox it for a hundred hours.

[@shorewall]

@@courier8365 They take your son, and refreeze you, how long, you don't know. The twist of Shaun being old is not a twist, it is implied as soon as they refreeze you. Even in the course of finding him through Kellog's memories, they don't show you a baby, they show you a 10 year old. Why would you think that was Shaun? And if it was, why would you think Shaun was in danger, if he has grown to 10 years old in the Commonwealth, and looks clean and well adjusted? I don't care what my character says without my input. It's the equivalent of a voice inside my head at that point. I am my character, I choose the dialogue options, I choose who to kill and who to spare, I choose what to take and what to leave, I am in control. If they wanted Shaun to be MY driving factor, then they need to convince ME, not my character.

[@courier8365]

@@shorewall See, I think that way about literally ALL the other Fallout games except 4. The pre-determined backstory and linear dialogue of 4 just makes me give up trying to be my own person. Instead I opt to just role play as Nate and what I think he would do. Whether Shaun is in danger or not is irrelevant, he is your son, and therefore you need to ensure he is okay as it is your duty as a parent and husband to your wife. I believe Nora would want me to make finding Shaun my top priority. I do however think it makes sense if you join the Minutemen and work toward building a better future since that would thereby create a safer place for Shaun to live, if Nate were to get Shaun back that is. Obviously that doesn’t end up panning out but it’s still the best ending anyway. So prior to actually discovering that Shaun is an old man, I think it would make sense for Nate to spend a good chunk of time securing settlements. To each their own though. I do think it’s strange how at the end of the game when you speak with Shaun, there is no option to give him the Mysterious Serum that you get from completing the Cabot House quests. If it works, perhaps you could then convince Shaun to come with you instead of just letting himself go down with the Institute, and this could only be possible in the Minutemen ending. That way Nate can keep his promise to Nora.

[@duncanharrell5009]

@courier8365 One issue: Cabot wants you to use the serum selfishly and they imply a constant need to keep taking it. Sure, you can find up to eight vials but we dunno how long each vial can let you live. Sure, it can help Shaun live longer so you can still be his mother/father… but for how long? Plus, what if you used the seven first vials up and now only have the one? How long does that give him. Still, for real, Minutemen should have let you spare Shaun, even if he has to stand trial before the Minutemen and new CPG. You can at least try to get him life in prison or house arrest in Sanctuary for life. Where you can keep an eye on him and try to reform him.

[@iwolf21]

Personally, I liked the back story already being there. Because I don't like to have to build a back story to a character when i'm playing game. I also love the fact that the protagonist finally had a voice. Just wish it could have given me more voice options. Of all of the Fallouts this one was my top favorite.

[@ptown24]

I agree with this 100%

[@MinosML]

I can totally see this kind of person being the target audience for FO4 more than previous games And I'm not saying this as an insult. It's just not the same for previous entries where you're expected to RP your own character.

[@marshallscot]

The story would actually work better if your spouse survives and your child is 12 years old when the bombs drop. So when the player character goes to search the Commonwealth for Shaun, their spouse stays behind to maintain their settlement and call out to Shaun over the radio.

[@ixarofthebargains493]

I hate this whole line of thought, because Fallout 1, Fallout 2, and Fallout 3 all had set-in-stone character backstories, and despite all claims to the contrary, so did Fallout New Vegas. There's literally an entire DLC about how set in stone your backstory is. Functionally the only thing Fallout 4 added to this mess was give that silent Protagonist a canon voice. You are simply not going to not go look for the water chip, the GECK, or your dad in the previous three main titles. You are simply not going to not go look for the bastard who shot you and stole your package. "Why should I care about Shaun or Nora, I didn't want them"? yeah well that's how Fallout has always been. Sorry.

[@atashgallagher5139]

Ok, the best testament to the strength of mass effect is that while i was listening to and engaged with this video about fallout lore, but not watching it, and I glanced over and saw the footage from the mass effect shore leave citadel dlc and I just felt immediately sad. They better not effing kill off Tali in the sequel I swear to god.

[@badunius_code]

5:25 fixed protagonist does _not_ work for Witcher 3: finding Ciri is portrayed to be urgent, but the player is free to advance at their own pace.

[@MinosML]

Cyberpunk and Witcher 3 suffer the exact same pacing problem that most people gladly ignore in favor of the masterfully written quests and amazing worlds to explore, tbf. But it's still there, you're either urgently looking for Ciri in a tense race against the Wild Hunt or...you know, trying to look for a way not to have your personality erased by the Relic in a few weeks. Not very conducive of you taking your time to explore those amazingly put worlds, honestly.

[@MLPDethDealr32]

There's a mod that restores the cut option to have Nora be a Military/Army Veteran as well. When i first played Fallout 4 i only did the Brotherhood route despite the lore inconsistencies. Yes, there are a few regarding the faction and it spreads to Fallout 76 as well. Bethesda has this broken idea that the Brotherhood left their bunker and sent out scouting patrols. That would work if it were only confined to Fallout 4 since thats what they do. IN Fallout 1 the Brotherhood remained in their Bunker at Lost Hills after the Mariposa incident and stayed there until the events of Fallout 1. Fallout 76 DIRECTLY RECTCONS that entire event by claiming that the Brotherhood were already sending out patrols and traveled Thousands of miles to Appalachia. It would have made better sense if the ones on the East coast and the Ones in Virginia were just Army Remnants instead.

[@ScarletImp]

That said, my two gripes about the whole Nate/Nora thing: - Nora can somehow wield military-grade hardware *and then some* despite just being a lawyer, and somehow I doubt Nate was allowed to induct her into his own personal US Army military training session. Sure, I could see her shooting a pistol but being able to wear power armor and use a mini-gun? - It was hard to actually care about looking for Shaun, if you're not a parent. Especially since it's revealed its been 210 years since the bombs dropped and when we're told that, we don't know *when* Shaun was taken. It could've been last week, ten years ago, or...210 years ago and we're looking for a grave. Hell, that was my first thought when Codsworth told us how long we were out. A decent parent would never give up, no matter how much time had passed. But for non-parents? Well...

[@lartonki]

Well you dont need to be on army to learn shoot guns, and shooting with gun isn't most complex thing ever. And lets not forget this takes place on US so wouldnt be anything special if Nora would have actual have get gun license. But we can also look up cut content and see that Nora isn't just random civilian lawyer she is actually former army member. It seems that orginally story is writed as Nora being lawyer and ex army member. Courtenay Taylor voice actor of Nora had interview where she said when she was planning how to make everything fit nicely she realize she have friend who was been on army, is lawyer, have kids and is married with guy who is on army and she use that friend of her as inspiration. I agree abaout Shaun part, we spent somethink like 3 minutes on our pre-war house before running the vault so it's hard to emotional. But i dont think previous fallout games did that any better, like new vegas we get shooted because chip we have to deliver, what is to reason i would really go to hunt down that man that shoot me or why i would care abaout that chip.

[@MinosML]

@@lartonki Revenge is MUCH more universal than what you're giving it credit for, honestly. First thought when starting a NV playthrough is 'I can't wait to get my bearings and shoot that b*stard back'.

[@unironicallyunfunny]

the transition at 7:31 was insanely clean

[@Theegreygaming]

thank you very much. I worked pretty hard to get it to line up.

[@thenivlacianempire8574]

I have to say, I have found New Vegas and Skyrim to be good fun, but because I never had any emotional attachment I quickly got bored, whereas in Fallout 4 I have been able to become truly invested and eager to keep playing, making it my favorite. Of course I love full sandbox RPGs, but I also enjoy having a bit of railroading and being able to relax and enjoy a lack of responsibility while still being in control.

[@TrangleC]

Yeah, I actually did not enjoy The Witcher 3 very much because it forced me to play a set character and act as if I cared about other characters I didn't know. Everybody loves that game so much, but I lost interest when I figured out that the combat system wasn't that good and that the world quickly started feeling empty and barren due to almost all the NPCs just being cardboard cutouts repeating the same sentence over and over. I played just past the part where the main quest line brings you to the big city. I didn't rage quit, but I just lost interest. And in Fallout 4 the big problem was that the big plot twist was so painfully obvious. The second I got re-frozen during the intro sequence it was clear that a undetermined amount of time must have passed since the baby was stolen and that made it obvious that I would run into my son as an adult, probably as a old adult because why would a writer pull a lame trick like that only to give you a "dad meets his son as a strapping young man and they lived happily ever after"-ending? No, it was clear that the son would either be dead, which was less likely because mostly pointless, or be a old man for maximum impact and because just meeting your son as a old man would also not have had much "oomph", the by far most logical and most likely outcome was that your son would be the main villain of the story. I figured that out the second the glass of the freezing pod frosted over a second time and I am not some Sherlock Holmes super genius. It took very little base level deduction and a small pinch of cynicism to immediately know where the story was going. That means it objectively sucked. That is the kind of shit you are getting when dumb people try being smart.

[@hoegild1]

This video nails it. If I am going to play a caracter driven game, the game has to actually use that caracter in the game. InFallout4 there are very very few mentions of the players backstory after the intro. Kellog gives a few hints, Father has a little more, and a robot mentions your driver license..thats it! Why create a backstory, if you dont use it for anything?

[@chaophim1680]

One of the big problems I had was the main quest was TOO linear. They should have included lines for ALL factions to help you in your search, not just lines pointing to nick. Throw in false leads to promote exploration. Throw in actual clues that you eventually need nick's help in figuring out. As it is, all you get is Preston shrugging in one convo and then starting the minutemen quest with not even follow-up dialogue asking how the search is going, etc., I don't even count Mama "Hintline" Murphy. She's just a voiced walkthrough for the early game and a waste of time in subsequent playthroughs. Made the main "story" seem trite, especially with its conclusion.

[@ScarletImp]

Actually, even if you removed the Nate/Nora thing and we were just a random Vault Dweller who saw someone get killed right in front of us and their baby taken, there'd still be motivation. We'd have to create our own reason for it (maybe we knew the person, maybe we have a standard against kidnapping children, maybe we feel like if we don't act, that person is gonna kill us next, etc.) The story doesn't *have* to have us play Nate/Nora in order for it to work. Granted dialogue would have to be altered to reflect that we're just a rando Vault Dweller, but still.

[@MinosML]

That's basically the Start Me Up (Redux) mod with the random Vault Dweller start to a T. Dialogue changes and all.

[@samueltitone5683]

If Fallout 4 has a sole survivor problem, it’s as much as Breath of the Wild has a Link problem. If the sole survivor is supposed to be desperately searching for their son and avenging their spouse, why are they dicking around for 3 in-game years building cities across the commonwealth? Why are they running off to Nuka World to play Immortan Joe? It’s a created a disconnect that isn’t present for the protagonist of a linear narrative like Dishonored (which has the same broad presence as Fallout 4 now that I think about it).

[@Navonex]

An Issue I had with the game when I first beat the story was that there wasn't even any ending slides. You know the indicators that your character was there making life better or worse? The only impact I felt Nate/Nora had was either blow up the institute or the actual beginning when they're just living their lives and the bombs drop. The story makes them plot puppets you control, then when its over that's it. How did The Sol Survivor effect Piper, Cait, Nick, Handcock, or Various factions/settlements etc? Ignored. Which showed why the karma system was important as well. The story never gives the Sol Survivor the chance to be anything meaningful because its just moving them along until its over.

[@crusaderthestranger5982]

I personally think they failed at the "finding your son" aspect, the fact that there are a handful of jokes regarding forgetting about shaun is a example of this.

[@badunius_code]

11:25 it's not a definition of role playing, it's a definition of roling in.

[@overlorddante]

You can still make Nate or Nora what you want if you write off the drastic character changes as ✨trauma✨

[@thejonathan130]

The sympathy Empathy just came up on some corporate course I was doing. Ughhhhhhhh

[@shorewall]

I play with an alternate start mod, and a mod that removes the Voice Player Character. It makes the game so much better.

[@TheBasedTyrant]

In defense of the empathetic protagonist route there are two things I will say. If Bethesda sticks to this for Fallout 5 and offers another empathetic protagonist in different circumstances I feel like Nate and Nora will be viewed more positively regardless of whether the new character receives good or bad reception and is better or worse by comparison. Secondly is that compared to attempts at empathetic protagonist from other games we should be lucky that Bethesda seems to have not gone with the trendy option of having the protagonist be an insufferable self centered girl boss or similar male counterpart. They instead focused on a nuclear family, specifically parents trying to protect their child. While this may not be relatable to many of the players of the game it is hard not to empathize with such a character. I will say that even if people may not like what Bethesda did with the Sole Survivor, many people will qualify that by saying that it is nothing against the performance of the actors for Nate and Nora who at the very least had their moments, and didn't half ass it.

[@soldierinsane2689]

I mean, I think role playing as a character who lost a child is more interesting and added a lot more to my role playing experience with that component in mind. Like the deathclaw egg quest or saving other kidnapped npcs, it reminds me that the protagonist has its own dimensionality such as their relationship to the institute and far harbors synth identity dilemma.

[@nemstalgia]

Agree wholeheartedly. People who think it's a poor plot line probably have never lost a child, and don't understand the lengths a traumatized parent would go through, just to find their child, or find who took them.

[@shorewall]

@@nemstalgia So we have to have lost a child in order to find the plot interesting? That's a big ask.

[@nemstalgia]

@@shorewall Huh?? Where in my comment did I say that at all? LOL. I'm just saying that most people in this world cannot grasp how it feels to lose a child, so some of Sole's actions may be lost on them.

[@tamal10000]

@@nemstalgia but that's exactly why it is a poor plot line, not many people are going to feel connected to such a traumatic experience, hell i don't think most players are even parents themselves to fully connect or understand the protagonist

[@nemstalgia]

@@tamal10000 You're absolutely allowed to feel that way ! it just isn't my viewpoint.

[@knellycornnan5132]

When it comes to Fallout 4, the real question is not what you once were, but what you will become. Once you leave that vault you can become anything form a raider, to church of atom preacher, to a bandit. The skies the limit. I have roleplayed as so many different characters in this game. A bit of initial backstory doesn't hurt.

[@hanzzel6086]

I would agree, if you hadn't just seen your loving wife murdered and new born child stolen. That is just too strong of a motivation for the SS to ignore from a role-playing perspective, unless you role-play the SS as a complete asshole who doesn't/didn't care about them.

[@epicchocolate1866]

But that’s not true. Fallout 4 you cannot become a raider, or an atom preacher, at least not in a meaningful way. You have zero control over factions, no choices that really affect the world. You’re just searching for your son

[@knellycornnan5132]

@@epicchocolate1866This is just flat ot wrong. Have you not played the DLC for fallout 4? In Nuka world you can become a full on raider boss there. In Far Harbor you can join the Church of atom. Plenty of outfits to fit the part too.

[@knellycornnan5132]

@@epicchocolate1866 Plus there is a lot of ambiguity in what sort of person the player is. Sure you are trying to find your son, but the way you go about it and what you ultimately do when you find him is up to the player/

[@BirchMonkey857]

One of my main problems is that Fallout 4 is at its best when you're dicking around. That's fine, but you can't make a Shepard-style character played straight, then put them in a game where they can dress up as The Shadow and cosplay to cowboy robots without a damn good reason. Especially since FO4 suffers from the trope of the story waiting for you. Kidnapped son? Who gives a shit, time to spend days meticulously building a cage-fighting arena and then get a beer-brewing robot. Speaking of straight, and yes, I realise this could set some people off, but an issue I've never seen talked about is that FO4 _forces_ your character to be either straight or bi-spectrum (and of course the possibility of some of the ace spectrum). _No other Fallout game does this._ 1, I don't believe your character's sexuality gets more than a passing mention. 2, it's left nice and open for you to decide. 3, it's mostly ambiguous, with maybe a couple of lines here and there you can pick, plus the one perk that adds a few more, and even then it's not clear whether it's genuine or just manipulating people. New Vegas, it's back to being totally open, and even adds Confirmed Bachelor and Cherchez La Femme to help expand optional flirtation to wlw and mlm. 4? Start off in a straight marriage where there's no implication of it being anything but loving and voluntary. Which, good for them, but also it's a really weird point to force. Back to the main point, it just doesn't fit to have a pre-defined character like this in a sandbox RPG. I can't imagine the Sole Survivor just having random adventures for in-game years over finding their child, but due to how the game is built, it's not only far more fun, it's almost necessary. I dare any normal player, without cheese or glitches, to get into the Institute without doing any side quests or spending an unreasonable amount of in-game time to get better items. New Vegas? It's written so that Benny has enough of a reason to continue the status quo for the time being, and so whether your Courier cares about other people's stuff they encounter or their own safety over what's mostly a personal thing is up to both you, and, more importantly, them. You can play New Vegas as just a shooter, but you can get so much more out of playing it as an RPG. I think part of it is that Fallout as a series is far closer to a TTRPG than, say, Elder Scrolls. TTRPGs require the player to be involved in building your character, along with the DM building the world. There needs to be a reason for your character to be involved in the plot, even if it's as flimsy as "this necromancer showed me up in the county fair, I WILL MURDER THEM." And that comes from both ends, too. A DM can say "you know this person," but then make giving a reason for _how_ the player's responsibility. And that's something 1, 2, and NV do well. Why, out of all the Vault 13 residents, were you chosen to get the water chip? Why should you, out of everyone in Arroyo, go to get the GECK? Why did you become a courier in the first place? Elder Scrolls, on the other hand, tends to thrust you into the plot with a defined reason. You're the reincarnation of Nerevar, sent by Azura to kill Dagoth Ur. Patrick Stewart has had prophetic dreams foretelling that you would aid in stopping the Oblivion Crisis. You were born the Last Dragonborn, destined to kill Alduin. That works fine for those games, but not for Fallout. Fallout isn't a high-fantasy video game world with all its trappings and tropes, it's a post-apocalyptic hellscape where life sucks for most everyone. A decent rule of thumb is if you can customise a character physically, you should _also_ be able to customise them mentally.

[@imzesok]

The way the story is handled, is just bad. As a parent, our Sole Survivor has exactly one job: find your kid. The game goes out of it's way to distract you from it CONSTANTLY with things to do that isn't make sure your son is safe. It's just like: "oh, btw here's some factions! you like factions, right?" with barely a thought towards what purpose they're to serve in finding your kid, Kellogg, Valentine, or doing really anything useful at all. They're not going to ACTIVELY help you in any way shape or form beyond operate your barely cobbled together teleporter, and the empty gesture of: "oh, we'll have our people be on the look out" statement. They all have vastly more resources and informants that can get information far faster than a freshly thawed prewar vault-dweller. Why can't they track down Kellogg for you, while you are doing odd jobs for them? at least then you have a REASON to build up all these settlements for the Minute Men, and establishing new safe houses for the Railroad. At best they're just kind of in your way. So yes, the problem isn't remotely with the PC, it's everything else just being really poorly thought out.

[@AccordYeen]

the problem for me, is that Shaun represents an ENORMOUS disconnect between player and player-character motivations. Nate, as a character, would be utterly psychotic and downright evil if he just... didn't care about immediately tracking down the man who murdered his wife and took his son. meanwhile, I, as a player, don't give two shits about any of these characters, because I've spent maybe 3 minutes interacting with them, and they're kind of bland.

[@badunius_code]

8:35 I believe what you are going for is "the game is fine, maybe it's simply not for you. And it doesn't matter tha the #1 mod is an alternative start one. Maybe you should simply wait 25 more years for another Fallout game, and if the next one won't be to your taste either, maybe you can simply die, because you won't live long enough to wait for yet another game"

[@mattie.f00]

I’m glad fo4 chose this route. I really felt for the character as they progressed through the story the first time. Found myself really connecting with Nate and Nora. I was inclined to help them. All my progression was to assist these characters that I had formed a bond with. I imagine this experience to be completely different if your the kind of person that skips dialogues. I really enjoyed playing other characters as opposed to role playing as myself in this world. Both approaches are good imo…I’m glad they deliver both options.

[@kevinkennedy4386]

I liked the idea of the sole survivor but they never really touch on their background after the beginning. I assume this was just so Nate and Nora would have the same script but I can’t imagine it being that hard to change it in certain places

[@awesomesource12]

I found the biggest disconnect wasn't because players weren't ready for a protagonist like this, it's because the games design wasn't either. Fallout 4 is designed as a "open world, go anywhere right from the start, do side quests, meet factions and build bases while looting" game on a design level. Not a "do nothing but find your child and somewhere safe to live" game. The main characters have the option to ignore Shaun and the main plot except theres not justification or even a effort to acknowledge you doing so. It feels like you have "fallout 4, the game" then "that one quest line outside of the game where the voice actors act like your character just remembered the opening moments all of a sudden and are urgently looking for Shaun". But then once you find Shaun, the game stops making sense. Shaun asks his father who just braved the wastes and dangers of the world to find him, to go shoot some raiders with a courser. The main characters almost also sound confused as to what they are doing now. This goes on as you end up leading the institute by doing all of the dangerous stuff yourself. This is stupid as hell and just shows the game design not making sense with the story even more. I think my point is that I can't empathise with my character in fallout 4 as it's still treated as there is no character for the whole game until you go back to a main quest. Then if I try to see the main character as being a person with backstory, he or she just seems wildly inconsistent and 2d.

[@Rakrak1775]

i saw ronnie's video too! man youtube has gotten really good at finding content that i actually enjoy and its great seeing new creators getting the exposure they deserve!

[@9791mij]

A thing that could improve the game is you can select your character demeanor ether pre game or in moment

[@noogidoo2217]

I feel like the issue is that they didn't go far enough with either committing to a set protagonist or one created by the player. The witcher 3 works because with at least 90% of the decisions you could see geralt making either one depending on what assessment he came to at that time, and it follows a single story which is motivated by Geralt. With a game like fallout new vegas, you are free to create your own character, and due to the minimal backstory, play a consistent character with any set of traits you assign them. You dont always have to act how you would, or based on consequence, because its an RPG, a role playing game - you can create a character yourself and act how they would. Fallout 4 tries to go both directions at once, having Nora for example established as a lawyer and loving mother, and then allowing you to drop intelligence to 1 and become the leader of a gang of raiders, or start cannibalising bodies, or kill her son on sight without even talking, which contradicts the established character. It needed to pick a path (either path can be done well, though fallout is known for the second, so for maintaining a series identity that may be preferable. It also tends to work better with the open gameplay of fallout), and stick to it

[@Lofirainbows]

Aspects of the sole survivor I never liked is their inconsistent morality / personality; it's like they tried to give them a backstory/characterisation, yet you to still have freewill. However I often think my choices in role-playing feel very restricted. I'm not playing through my character's story; I am telling someone else's. I have to make decisions that do not conflict, I have to conform to Bethesda's backstory / characterisation.

[@Lofirainbows]

All of Bethesdas bad writing with none of the freedom

[@alexpell99]

I am so glad I got recommended your channel. I love the quality of the videos you're putting out, keep up the good work.

[@evilbob840]

This is off topic, but right around 7:30 in the video, when the bomb explodes and it switches from Nate looking at you to Nora, was some really good editing. I just wanted to voice some appreciation for it.

[@sproulc02]

Just watched several of you're videos and I would just like to say that I've found them really interesting. Keep up the good work!

[@dantenadir2850]

Personality i think the biggest with the sole survivor is that you have to be a loving parent for the story to work properly, which makes it really contradicting if the player wants to roleplay a raider who only care about himself or any other type of selfish characters, and the worst one have to be institute as the only reason you're allow to be part of it because of father a.k.a. Shaun, even when the character could make for a terrible leader for the institute, if it was anyone else, it most likely sent a courser to deal with the intruder

[@Underqualified_Gunman]

you might've been able to make the narrative, and gameplay decisions be split into multipule presets and have prebuilt character like in FO1, however with additional story to them, other wise you could choose to build your own dweller sorta like fo76 did and have the nate and nora stuff be treated like a long side quest chain instead,

[@dossiebigham9113]

like i just feel like they could have flushed out there backgrounds maybe tried to get people invested in the characters more. like Nate comes back from the war they celebrate that night. Nora says shes pregnant they celebrate and than everything with the bombs happen. like the time skips in fallout 3s intro so we get most the tutorial stuff out of the way (NOT VATS save it for the vault and confusing people of the main character if they're a synth or not) and we get to spend time with them and get to actually care more about them.

[@dwglr]

I think the big issue comes more from there being no real weight to your choices and the dialogue system as a whole. Fallout 4 really would've benefited from a sort of karma system with the factions like NV had. You can be an absolute dick to Preston and the settlers, and he'll still ask you to help him get them settled at Sanctuary and send you to help a settlement and will still promote you to General even if you just shot the settlers to not do the quest. You can look the Railroad in the eyes and tell them synths are tools and you have no problem with the Institute, and they'll still want to recruit you. You can look at the BOS and put down everything they stand for and you'll still get asked to join. You can look Elder Maxson in the eye and say you refuse your orders to kill Danse and he'll still promote you to Paladin. You can work with the raiders in Nuka World and take out all the settlements in the commonwealth with them, Preston will hate you, but so long as you complete open season, he pretends like none of it happened. You can kill someone in a major city and after a couple days pass they pretend like that murder never happened. No matter what you say, you always end up with the same conclusion, which isn't a good thing for an RPG. Looking at the main story from the perspective of someone actually in that universe and not from the perspective of someone playing an RPG, the main quest is absolutely bonkers, too. The stars have to align just right for the desired outcome of getting into the Institute, and if even one thing was missing or went wrong, the entire operation would fail. There is no contingency plan for getting inside the institute if Nick had actually been killed by Skinny Malone, or if Dogmeat can't track Kellog to Fort Hagen, if Virgil died in the Glowing Sea, if someone out in the commonwealth couldn't decode a courser chip. Which makes no sense with Shaun making the choice to let you out of Vault 111 "to see what would happen, to see if you would come find me" but like... if you really wanted your parent to be there with you, why make them jump through so many hoops and put them in so much danger? Why compromise classified institute knowledge to one of your biggest enemies? I love Fallout 4, don't get me wrong. I've played it for hours upon hours. I have some disbelief about whether the vault dwellers going into 111 when the bombs dropped would've survived from the blast they saw (I do get it was meant to be a cinematic set piece to instill fear, despair, and urgency) so I am more in the camp that the 'sole survivor' is actually a synth with a few implanted memories that were put there to give them something to go on and nothing more. An experiment on emotional response, adaptability to stressful situations, resourcefulness... things like that.

[@mikefoolery]

Fantastic argument. I was actually planning on making a response video to you along the lines of “you’re right, storied characters in rpgs can be great, but they have to be written well and Bethesda completely failed to do that.” Then I got to the last 3 min of the video and you took the words right out of my mouth. Couldn’t agree more 👌

[@alextavares4104]

Man, I really love your content. Great work!

[@Ilaughatyou]

This was a fantastic video. I love your take and the way you explain the overarching concepts presented by each game in the background while indicating how they pertain to the subject. However I wasn't expecting a Witcher spoiler in a fallout video. :c

[@Sunny-ek8sx]

idk if i wanted to play someone elses story i wouldnt play a fallout game yknow

[@manaash4316]

Thank you for putting this so eloquently. I had a hard time summing up what my issue with fo4 was when i told my partner to start with 3 and not 4

[@Antonne64]

Honestly, now I understand why Fallout 4 touched me to an extent despite knowing that the main plot is the most basic thing I've ever heard. Maybe Sole Survivor seems to me more human than other Fallout protagonists, who knows...

[@jasongalloway4645]

I'll admit it was a little jarring at first to have a character that had a pre-defined background in a Bethesda RPG, but there's nothing wrong with the concept. What really bugs me is that it almost feels like the folks at Bethesda couldn't decide which way they wanted to go and tried to split the difference. As far as I know, the Sole Survivors back ground is only mentioned during the opening and one other time in passing (the look out for the USS Constution mentions it I think). I would have liked to see them commit one way or the other. If they're gonna have a pre-defined background for the two character options I would have liked to see that reflected in how they interact with the world...., maybe have a few dialogue options scattered thru out the early to mid game that reference each charters back ground and give each of the a stat buff that reflects their background as well. Give Nate a buff to Strength and Endurance since he's a veteran or give Nora a buff Charisma and Intelligence since she's an attorney. But by having a pre-defined background for the Sole Survivor and never really acknowledging it again in the main game....well it just feels kinda Bleh and just adds to the minor annoyances with the game's narrative.

[@Joshua-fo9zw]

My favorite D&D backstory, I woke up naked in a Denny's parking lot, I had a horrible hangover, I remember my name, and not much more.

[@locrpg]

I know I'm mega late to the chat because I only found your channel yesterday, and now I'm plowing through your fallout content. I'm a roleplay person and FONV was the first ever non MMO I played. I know - I chose poorly. I went into FO4 with my ONLY exposure to single player shooter games and RPGs being FONV. Anyway. When I went to sanctuary, I met with Codsworth who told me to go to Concord, but I didn't go right away. I decided to play with the workshop and deal with how I felt about the death of my wife and loss of my child. Idk if my English degree gives me narrative super powers or not, but I figured out immediately that my child would be an adult when I found him. I was thinking in my meta narrative that he'd be a raider I'd have to take down or join. But as I walked around Sanctuary, I listened to Diamond City radio, trying to do some recon before entering the wasteland. I played around with the building and armor crafting, and before I left Sanctuary I was almost level 5, and pretty decently geared up. When I felt prepared, I met Dogmeat and I was surprised there was no dialogue option to say something like, "Sean would have loved to have a dog like you." But, okay whatever. As Nate, I stealthed into Concord. There was shooting - raiders vs a dude on a balcony. I tried to find someone to talk to so I could find out what was going on, but the raiders were all hostile, even though we'd never met before. I was confused by this. I had no idea if the raiders were justified in their conflict or just being evil. I had to ASSUME they were evil. That was the first big wompwomp for me. Then I fought my way to the survivors and was railroaded into helping them. I had no reason to help them. This is what you were talking about with the writing failing the sole survivor. And in my conversation with Preston, I had no choice but to ASSUME that he was being honest. Again. A failure of writing. How different would the game have been if the first encounter had gone differently. What if the raiders were willing to talk. To tell a story about how they got to this point and why. There's a whole story about what happened in Quincy and I can't remember the raider terminal but there's story about the raider who wanted Mama Murphy, and all this narrative that someone put a lot of thought into. But instead, we show up and have to murder the raiders and trust Preston and kill a deathclaw. Also, it forces us into power armor, which seems silly, because Preston and his crew likely need it a lot more. Why would Nate/Nora take the power armor? Wouldn't it make more sense to help Preston and Co get access to it, then have the option of the sole survivor borrowing it or letting Sturges take it for a ride in the fight? There was just so much that didn't make sense. Now, I admit, as a n00b with very little experience in video game logic, I was probably way over thinking all of this. But by the time I made it back to Sanctuary, I was bored. I hadn't gotten to make any decisions. My character wasn't in mourning over my dead spouse. My character stupidly believed his son was still a baby and the kidnappers had just left the vault moments ago, but then stops the search to arbitrarily murder one faction and help another. The game told me I needed to use power armor, which I did not want. I had no agency. So, yeah, the writing failed the sole survivor. As did the gameplay. That being said, I later went back to FO4 and have logged over a thousand hours in it. It's not a bad game, it's just a bad roleplaying game. If you avoid the narrative and treat it as a scrounging, building, and exploration game, it's pretty solid! Anyway, thanks for reading my little rant.

[@IamCoalfoot]

My favorite Headcanon to address Nora having no training with firearms or military gear is that she secretly does. 'Cause she's an intelligence operative. Which, during wartime, are often simply referred to as 'Lawyers'. It'd be a convenient way for the two to have met, too, so there's that. Or, y'know, Nate taking his wife to the gun range and secretly getting her trained on power armor (with his clout as a war hero to grease gears), for family bonding, and/or 'just in case' for example 'the Reds' come.

[@Nathan35077]

I hear people constantly say that having protagonist voice acting is soooo horrible. That they don’t want voice acting. They want silence, like in FO3 and NV. But…. With all the mods people use for the game, I’ve NEVER seen anyone use a mod to disable it. They fix the dialogue options, because it’s definitely horrible. But nobody removes the voice. So obviously they don’t hate it. I personally prefer voice acting. It’s much more engaging. It’s not immersive for me to click someone and just hear a response from and NPC, reacting to nothing… as if they can read my mind rather than hear me talk.

[@crptpyr]

people's problem with the voice acted protagonist usually isn't the voice acting itself, hence why most don't disable it. The problem is the limitations that a voice acted protagonist imposes. A limitation for video games is and always has been file space, and audio files take up quite a lot of it. So you can't have too many player dialogue choices for that reason. Additionally, more voice lines is more time and money, you have to record them, pay the voice actors, animate the voice lines, etc. It's why games like morrowind without voice acting are able to allow characters a sometimes ridiculous amount of dialogue - because that dialogue doesn't take up the extra time, money, and file space associated with voice acting. Sure, in a voice acted game like fallout 3 or new vegas, each additional dialogue option means more voice lines to be implemented for the npcs. But in 4, it would mean more voice lines needed for both the player and npcs.

[@Nathan35077]

@@crptpyr well when I’ve heard people complain about it, they say they don’t like it because it creates a voice for them. They don’t want to hear their character talk. They prefer silence, instead of how a character might emphasize certain words, or whatever. So the majority of the people I’ve personally heard complain are actually complaining about the character being voiced in general. But I much prefer it myself. But yes, more dialogue options would be much better. And the franchise makes enough money that they could record more lines for sure, and still make enough profits to justify it. But I definitely find voice acting to be far more immersive. Unlike everyone else. But those who complain still don’t disable it. I mean MAYBE it’s because it would still show your character mouthing words during dialogue although that could probably be modded out as well. So I think people are just complaining to complain.

[@MLPDethDealr32]

@@Nathan35077 Its because in an RPG series like Fallout used to be, the whole point of a silent Protag is that YOUR THE ONE that would create the voice and thoughts of the character. Gets hard to do that with Fallout 4. Hence why i have to use mods to add sarcastic wit to my character and make her think more like i would. She's a chainsmoker and has a short temper. She cares about her friends she's made in the wasteland then some kid. She saw her past as being a burden and now she feels more liberated then she did living in Pre war Sanctuary.

[@Nathan35077]

@@MLPDethDealr32 right. But then how come nobody uses mods to remove the voice if that’s what they wanted? It seems like that’s not their real issue. I think they just wanted more dialogue options, and BETTER dialogue in general. I don’t think having a voice protagonist is their issue because nobody removes it even though they claim they don’t like it and wish it wasn’t there. But they’ll use mods for literally anything else, and of course it’s possible to remove it. Pretty easily I’d imagine.

[@Nathan35077]

Like I agree the game has tons of issues, and laziness. They started catering to casual gamers. They made it more friendly to casual gamers that aren’t crazy into RPG’s. And honestly that’s how I got into the series. And then 76 just completely went towards younger people. Alienating real RPG players completely. I feel like a balance between fo4 and FO3/NV would have been the sweet spot. But they just wanted the younger generation because that’s where the money is unfortunately. Everything in entertainment is now catered towards gen Z because they’re the money makers. That’s why everything is inclusive and LGBTQ friendly. For better or worse, but that’s the reason. It’s the financially smart way to go. Even if it alienated literally everyone else.

[@Yardiff]

Very interesting, thank you. You have a thumbs-up from me. I’ve also watched the pair of “Fallout 4 Is Better Than You Think” videos by Many A True Nerd. One discusses the good things, the other the bad, about Fallout 4. I think it’s time to watch it again. Regarding a set protagonist that is a blank slate…I’ve been thinking about this. Much like an alt-start mod, or the start to Fallout 3, it really wouldn’t be too difficult to add an “internal dialogue tree” right after choosing your characters SPECIAL stats. Something like: “That brings back memories. How I met Nora/Nate:” [options of how they met] +1 perk point “What I used to do:” [options of jobs depending on SPECIAL] Add 1 skill or +1 perk point “What I specialized in:” [options depending on SPECIAL] Add 1 skill or +1 perk point “When I was young I really enjoyed:” [options depending on SPECIAL] Add 1 skill or +1 perk point Makes me kind of want to write that mod now…

[@bradw317]

Interpretation is key, along with imagination. Watching the opening cinamatic first thing to decide how do I interpret the character. You have been discharge Military Veteran and his wife who happens to be an attorney the bombs drop, You're frozen sometime later you get defrosted watch a bald man kill your spouse, then you get refrozen, you get defrosted again later and in panic check your spouse to confirm everything wasn't a nightmare. You wander through the empty corridors things that should be teeming with life is now a cold empty tomb, long dead people surround you, some are recently defrosted corpses while others are dry dusty bones. Eventually you find a way out of that tomb rising up just like you did as you came down. You rise up to a blinding light when your eyes adjust to the light you see devestation and destruction. It is at this point your first real chance to interpret your character begins. What kind of personality, morals, and motivations will you give? Now my dear players what kind of Nate or Nora is it going to be?

[@SylviaMoonbeam1127]

The funny thing too with Nate and Nora’s backgrounds, is they are just vague enough to still be up to the player. We know Nate is a Veteran, but what type of soldier was he? Maybe he used power armor, maybe he was a sniper, maybe he did espionage as a Honey Pot, maybe he went full berserker with Rippers. We don’t know. And that vagueness let’s YOU, the player define what kind of soldier he was. In my main, I knew Nora was a lawyer. What kind of lawyer? I decided she was a patent lawyer! She had worked with several of the companies like RobCo, General Atomic, Nuka Cola, etc. She was familiar enough with looking over patents and reading blue prints that she could basically reverse engineer most of the things she needed in the wasteland. Along the way, she sympathized with the Minutemen and the struggle of the Railroad, connecting with Sturges and Tinker Tom. She even felt a bit of a spark of romance for Nick Valentine… though his feelings were reciprocated. And, upon reaching the Institute, she found out why… Going through the Institute files gave me implications that I might be a Synth myself, and I ooc discovered that’s apparently that’s a popular theory. Now I had to deal with the fact that all my pre-war memories might be a lie. Was I good with fixing armor and kitbashing laser weapons because I really WAS a patent lawyer pre-war? Or was in because I simply had Institute files for these things installed in my brain?

[@apollo4619]

Tbh courier 6 has more of a impactful pre set backstory, hell a entire DLC is based on he/she's actions in the divide. Also it is stated the courier has traveled the big circle, been a bounty hunter, trader, merc, etc. I don't know why some NV fans try to say 6 is a "blank slate"

[@LicheLordofUndead]

That is why I like the Alternate Start Mods for Fallout 4, I can decide if I want to be the sole survivor, someone else in the vault, or someone that just stumbles onto the vault, it does add more playability to the game.

[@ancientgamer3645]

The later Fall Out games after 1 and 2 would all have been better with a party system. FO 4 would have been more interesting if it was themed around "save the world" vs "find your kid". Appreciate your excellent critiques. 👍👍

[@alligatorscrublord]

The problem with Fallout 4 is that you're not playing your character, you're playing Nate, regardless of if that's what you want.

[@howardibleinc.7317]

My nate story for my playthrough is that nate was involved in a military experiment to create advanced soldiers and thus explains the fact that he is so able to survive and thrive in the wasteland. Do to this experiment Shawn was born with these enhanced genetics and the reason the institute takes him.

[@dumbsterdives]

i think my biggest issue with the sole survivor is that they give us a character with pretty clear cut morals and desires, then once were past the prologue a lot of the choices we can make (because fallout's whole schtick is your choices affecting the world, something fallout 4 does very poorly) make absolutely no sense for the character we'd been given. why in the hell would loyal soldier nate and attorney nora, say, side with an obviously immoral institute made up of the same kinds of people that ended the world in the first place? why would nate or nora join up with a bunch of psychopaths in a theme park? why would nate or nora side with a bunch of radiation poisoned fanatics? if you want to play an "evil" character, you have to justify to yourself why nate or nora got out of the vault and suddenly had a complete breakdown of their moral compass and any values they held. and there just is no answer that doesnt completely undermine everything the game's writing tries to set up and make a poorly written plot even worse.

[@duncanharrell5009]

Easy: When Codsworth says it’s been 210 years since the bombs drop and you see the state of the Commonwealth… what’s the point of holding to your old morals and values? It’s a dangerous and hellish new world…

[@captainjellicoe1701e]

it's basically just the opposite of three instead of the son looking for his father it's the father looking for his son

[@niteowl9491]

Honestly, the problem isn't the Sole Survivor themselves but rather that the plot centers on their child -- or rather pretends to center on him, when in reality you can just fvck off and do whatever you want for as long as you want, while you're supposedly "desperate" to get your kid back. I admittedly haven't played the other Fallout games (apart from a little of the og) but typically a good blank-slate player char has something HAPPEN to them -- not to someone else or someplace nearby, but to THEM specifically. Conversely, a set character like Shepard or Geralt usually has something to DO, some task or greater quest they are already on when the game's events begin. For Geralt, esp in Witcher 3, his goal immediately is to find Yen and Ciri. We get an opening cut scene showing his relationship to both of them before we ever get to the real game, because Ciri is the emotional core of the game. Similar with Mass Effect, we get a mission that introduces Shepard's role, his status with his team, and his overall goal of becoming the first human Spectre, which becomes key to accessing and propelling the greater story. There's still a couple ways they could have pulled this off. For one, they could easily have gone the Witcher route; give us more time with Shaun and show us who he is and what he means to SS as a character. Make us have to protect him, let him grow up a little bit, allow Shaun and SS to develop an actual relationship. That way when he's taken, it isn't just the game saying "hey he's important, you should be upset." Even if you dgaf about Shaun the character at that point, you'd still feel like something you spent time on was taken from you, which is motive in itself to pursue the plot. Or, just make the story *about Shaun*. HE'S the one that ends up a victim of circumstance and has actual motives; the story could have explored the Institute and his views about whether the surface world is worth saving or going back to. And at least then he'd be a character with skills that make him interesting and valuable to others, unlike SS who's just.... some person? Some suburban house-spouse whose only real skills apply to a world that no longer exists, and yet is made to do everything from killing giant mutants to restarting power plants n shit.

[@RichardKushman]

The tone specifically with the sarcastic options can be wildly varying in tone too in comparison to mass effects renegade and paragon options

[@kylestevens6544]

Throw in that after 200 years people in Boston still haven't insulated there homes but have holes in the walls and roofs and yet somehow survived every winter, you're bang on mate