How Lean In Gaslit A Generation Of Women

[@GE336]

"I don't want to lean IN. I want to lie DOWN." - Allie Wong

[@Fernando31611]

I came to comment that...

[@sayurik]

Ali Wong **

[@andreapoulieva6717]

Hell YES

[@SiouxsieAngel]

Loved this episode. I remember reading “Lean In” with my women’s group at work. The chief memory of those discussions was a female manager holding up the book, filled with post its, saying “everyone of these represent every time I disagree with her.” Lol. I’m thankful for that manager’s candor lo these ten years later. Side note: TAKE YOUR VACATION. IT’S PART OF YOUR COMPENSATION FFS.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Lmao I love that manager.

[@diospyrose]

As a woman in a VERY male dominated field, Lean In provided some tangible advice that no doubt helped me in my career. Now that I’m higher up the ladder, I’m empowered to work on some of the deeper issues of inequity that Sandberg skated over. Lean In was a right time, right place for me, despite some serious flaws

[@re-becca]

THIS. I read it without knowing its reputation and got some tangible advice that was kind of helpful. (What surprised me was when some people I knew outright shamed me for having it on my shelf.) I think it falls into a lot of "self help" type books where there are good bits that can be helpful but it shouldn't be taken toooo seriously because its definitely ignoring some stuff.

[@angelachiazzese]

Completely agree. Engineer here and tangible advice is sometimes helpful as the first step.

[@CourtneyHayden-d5l]

Agreed

[@muwgrad1987]

Like you, I found valuable encouragement in "Lean In." It's not perfect, but it helped me as a manager and a mom.

[@tacrewgirl]

Agreed

[@unlitdaylight]

I hope she just misspoke at 8:30 but when she says "the Equal Rights Act for gender got passed" is a misnomer. It was passed in both houses of Congress but it was NEVER ratified by enough states to become a constitutional amendment, and several states rescinded their initial ratification. There is no gender protection in the U.S. Constitution today, period. In fact it failed after years and years of a campaign attempting to obtain state-by-state ratification. I can understand her point that the 1970s had a a moment of second wave feminism entering the mainstream, but it's just not accurate to say that the Equal Rights Amendment was successful.

[@Wee_Catalyst]

THANK YOU, EXACTLY

[@jcg03002]

Yes, it was actively ruined by the Mormon church apparently.

[@l.legrys9568]

I think she may have misspoke and was referring to the Equal Pay Act, which was enacted in 1963.

[@annmarieknapp2480]

The Equal Rights Amendment was never fully ratified and did not pass.

[@ABDresend]

You are not correct. 7 states *tried* to rescind their ratification but it was determined that they could not do so. Currently, the ERA just needs to be signed by the president and added to the books. You can read about it from the American Bar Association. www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/administrative/women/2024/res-601-adopted.pdf

[@Boahemaa]

Chelsea you made a good point about her fighting for women to be as neglectful as men. And to the other ladies' point about men need to be home for their wives after delivery too, that woman pushed out a baby she needs to rest. The mindset that being in a powerful position is so important that their parenting and social responsibilities should be sacrificed for it explains why capitalism is so attractive to them.

[@Sara-x6t3s]

I agree, however as with essentially everything like this, it impacts the poor FAR more than those in higher end jobs/careers. Most of these changes have been primarily reserved for more privileged careers like those in corporate positions, who make more than enough to take time off if needed. When it's the people who do not make enough to afford time off, who actually need the assistance. Of course the amount nearly all corporate jobs pay is ridiculously excessive considering what they actually contribute to society. Lol I mean we could probably eliminate 95% of corporate jobs without feeling even a slight alteration to life. Let's face it, usually it's the secretary that does all the work, meanwhile the CEO makes Bank... nvm the fact that no one would even notice if he knocked off😂

[@skeptik-ci5xo]

The ERA was never ratified.

[@l.legrys9568]

I believe she misspoke and was referring to the Equal Pay Act that was signed into law in 1963.

[@kateabez]

A few years ago, I was incredibly frustrated at a job that had zero upward potential. I called my dad crying, and two days later, this book was delivered to my door. Thanks dad. Lol.

[@Heldarion]

Does it still have zero upward potential and/or did you change the job?

[@kateabez]

@ I joined the “you should learn to code!” bandwagon, and I did a coding bootcamp. I work as an engineer for a very cool company now. I’m very happy with my choice. I would have absolutely been stuck in that job with no movement.

[@Heldarion]

@@kateabez Good on you! My friend has often told me to learn coding but it's just not my cup of tea. Who knows though lol

[@annmarieknapp2480]

​@@kateabezGood for you!!!

[@SuperStella1111]

@@kateabezAI will take your job first

[@MKatelynn]

The truth is you have to ask for everything these days. Ask for more at Chipotle, discounts with car fixes, more help with medical information. It seems like we have to advocate for ourselves everywhere lately.

[@mikesteelheart]

Which is ironic because tech and "progress" are supposed to make everything easier/more seamless yet it actually has made everything unnecessarily more complicated...

[@MKatelynn]

@mikesteelheart yes even to the point of having to pay to get a human to help you in places like FedEx.

[@dangoettel100]

Seriously, it's absolutely exhausting.

[@Jamhael1]

And you expect for what? Telepathy?

[@MKatelynn]

@@Jamhael1 Humm not sure of your point. For more context, mine is that things were more fair in the past. Since the pandemic more places have cut back on services and raised service fees. They've always existed, but it's gotten so bad where it's hard to unsubscribe from things (fewer help lines) and also to the point where Biden signed legislation to address junk fees and met with corporate leaders to address grocery and gas price gouging. Before it was easier to take things at face value, but with automation places have become more exploitative (I.e trapping people in subscriptions). Your question is a bit disingenuous and doesn't attempt to really engage in a conversation suggesting people only want telepathy although I'm sure you probably just think you're being sarcastic. Seems you're expecting telepathy from me if you wanted a response. Still, my point remains that times have changed and having to actively and constantly make sure you're not being scammed by scammers and corporations and government can be exhausting. It shouldn't be the wild west for exploiting everyday people and respectfully with lessening accountability. Services like healthcare and auto insurance shouldn't be so hard to access especially when it's was easier in the past.

[@micronotyet]

I'm loving the "if books could kill" era of Chelsea Fagan.

[@aplden570]

I know right? I want to see her do "The 4 Hour Workweek," lol.

[@silverroxen2954]

I just got done listening to an epsiode lol.

[@CabelCB]

It would be so much fun to do a crossover.

[@melissaseidl8686]

It's definitely fun to hear how the two podcasts are taking different approaches. I'm definitely thinking "ooh Mike & Peter went into more detail on that" on certain parts

[@Feyenoord101]

30:35 I really like this point made by Chelsea. Some of my Korean colleagues say that apart from the inherent sexism, the fact that most millennials didn’t grow up in happy homes, didn’t see their parents ona daily basis, those reasons add up to why people don’t want kids.

[@rharvey1227]

43:00 the woman on the far left is so dismissive, this was so irritating.

[@denissemaya475]

I agree, she tends to interrupt the woman in the middle a lot and sometimes rambles on and on and has trouble articulating her ideas to the point that the others just smile and laugh politely and just continue on saying something else. She did the rambling thing a lot on the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" episodes.

[@nezr0uge]

Exactly. Came here to say that. She perfectly emulates the problems of the book, imo : has never experienced the corporate environment (from what I understood) but explain to the other woman that she should just had done this and this to solve a problem that is not individual but structural.

[@passivelyobsessive5460]

All I kept hearing was “your experience was invalid” and then the other person having to come in and point out how she in fact did know what she was talking about

[@nezr0uge]

@@passivelyobsessive5460 exactly! Well summarised !

[@gamedev-erino5224]

We had a womens group at a AAA game company and HR made us read this as part of the group. My contract wasnt renewed a few months later and she then quoted the book to me and I almost lost my shit

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

YUCK!

[@knittingdoula]

A terrific podcast, but one note: Ladies, I am begging, BEGGING you to stop saying "like" multiple times in every sentence. Practice into your phone, play it back, and work on removing that word from your podcasting delivery. It makes all the difference in the polish of your message. What you don't notice becomes a verbal tic that makes the podcast much harder to digest. Really glad for this conversation and appreciated you raising the impossible double standards that get attached to women in the quest for corporate upward mobility.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

I agree. This was hard to watch for that reason.

[@miamonroe3246]

It's generational I noticed

[@LauraFreyReadinginBed]

Yep. I had to stop watching around the 15 min mark because I can't take it anymore. Uptalk as well. I *know* it's sexist, ageist etc to say that but I can't help it, it's nails on a chalkboard

[@nataliekmaguire]

I jumped to a few random minutes within the podcast and counted how many times "like" was said: roughly 13 times a minute/once every 5 seconds. I even heard the word "like" said twice in one second. I don't like being this level of pedantic, but the amount of filler "likes" was THAT extreme, it really impacted my ability to listen to this episode.

[@melissaseidl8686]

I'm wondering if the book club podcast maybe has more structure to it or something? So they usually have a clearer idea of what they're going to say. TFF videos are scripted, but these book club episode are very loose and conversational, so it makes sense that there's more pauses and filler. It is really a ton of "like"s though

[@oha1989]

*deep breath* this may be a controversial opinion and is in no way meant to be rude but my enjoyment of both the discussions on RDPD and LI was significantly lessened by the addition of the co-hosts with Chelsea. The lady with the short hair in particular rarely lets anyone talk, constantly talks over people and where I completely lost it, actively gaslit her cohosts lived experience saying “oh but you worked for startups”. It was very difficult to watch after that when I had already made it through her suggesting women should be more rude like men to get the same opportunities and advantages. These are the people who want you to fit to the system instead of changing the system completely. I’m probably gonna get hate on this (if anyone even reads this) but I just wanted to give constructive feedback.

[@terriw6116]

I completely agree. I think their vibe isn't what I'm used to here. The topics are great, but I don't enjoy the cohosts.

[@carmagana]

I agree 100%

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

I enjoyed the conversations between all three but communication is a skill and no one is perfect 😊 there’s always room for improvement, such as the “like” and the question marks at the end of every sentence. But I enjoyed hearing their opinions a TON because Chelsea has a very strong personality lol. I like to hear how she hears other people out, it’s enjoyable to watch.

[@melissaseidl8686]

I like the idea of a book club series like this, and having guests (whether these two or others in the future). I'm thinking that it might be a few structure for all of them, so the conversation is notably a bit chaotic

[@CarrieV9]

I remember my Harvard MBA educated former boss pushing this book. Worst micromanager boss I ever had. She plopped down her $ to gain entry to the Harvard club - the ultimate “we help our own” scheme, and then pretends like it’s not the driving factor in her success.

[@KBoldty]

A book that is currently on my 'to read' list is Lean Out by Dawn Foster. My understanding is that it counters the message of Sandberg and has more of an in-depth look at the systems, looking at 'the rise of corporate 1% feminism.' The reviews are good and this video has made me put it on the top of my list.

[@SusanaXpeace2u]

oh that sounds interesting. I must google that. I'm 54 and never got very far in my career. I had a burst of enthusiasm and ambition in my late forties when my kids were finally independent (well, not completely) and got frustrated that my efforts didn't lead to success. But now i'm moving into a phase where time seems so precious, more precious than money.

[@KBoldty]

@@SusanaXpeace2u I think that's a good space to be. I am in my late-30s and a health professional. I have always focussed on my career as, firstly, I loved it but also it was my path to validation. I was even going to leave a well-paying job recently to pursue a 'scholarship' that is highly sought after but pays far less than what I earn now. I was successful at being offered the position but have now chosen to stick with my current career pathway that pays well and I can work part time, plus I do actually like my job. I really feel that our priorities change as we get older and having time to spend on things we enjoy and with the people we love is what fills our cup. Plus it actually gives me more time and energy to focus on pushing back against the system ...

[@osheaeimear83]

Thanks for the recommendation

[@AdamTLyon]

Love love loved this episode. As a feminist who was in college when this book came out, I got to hear a lot of critiques of the book. Primarily about how she argues to work within systems that don't serve women. Now as an adult that is 30, I hate the advice to lean in. I support many women at my job who come to me for advice and I encourage them to advocate for themselves and be unapologetic with their requests. I often try not to give advice, but allow them to just process what they are thinking and encouraging them to move forward with wherever they land. II live in the midwest which adds a whole other layer. A few years ago I was meeting with my therapist (who is a women) and I said to her, "I don't know why my female coworker always complains, she should just ask for what she wants." and my therapist called me out and said that women and men navigate work differently. She said often times women are not supported to speak out and up about their ideas and wants. I needed to hear that and I think about it often. I think that applies to this conversation. "Lean in" in and of itself isn't bad advice. It is not applicable to most women (which makes it advice given in poor taste). So excited for part 2 of this conversation. Also loved the bit about comedy and the double standard for women.

[@SusanaXpeace2u]

Smart therapist. I have adhd although I didnt know that then. When I spoke up at about your age, more senior colleagues said no we can't do that, that's not how it's done. And then a month later a man would take my idea and be lauded for it. I'm 54 and when I was 30 I wasn't living in an environment where visiting a therapist could have seemed reasonable. Nobody around me was asking themselves ''do I want this?'' ''how much??'' and if so, ''at what cost?''. *should i even strive?* I think young women today have access to lots of insight that was harder to obtain in the 90s.

[@j.c.jeggis1818]

No, you were correct the first time. Being too meek to advocate for yourself and then whining that nobody is volunteering to take care of you isn’t “just how women are in the workplace”. It is a personal development issue that needs to be corrected. Sincerely, a formerly meek girl who made herself become an assertive woman and has been reaping the benefits ever since.

[@LumiFlake]

It deeply grosses me out when people boast with how little time they spare for their children, spouses and friends. Especially disrespecting your baby so much that you can't stay off of work even for a couple of months? The work and your career will survive, that baby won't. Utter failure of priorities. I'm happy to be living in a society where 8 months of parental leave for each parent is the norm.

[@nicoleszacharia2624]

when this came out i was an engineering faculty trying to get tenure. the particular school i was at had a lot of problems with any type of visible minority, and even white women fell into that category and that time and place. it was very, very frustrating to read that the answer was work harder and do more. Because I'm glad that worked for her, but it doesn't work for a lot of people.

[@annmarieknapp2480]

It's always been women need to work twice as hard to be perceived as half as good. That is an old, view.

[@justynawisniewska1213]

I just wanna say that 22 days off in a year is standard in most countries Europe, no one would question you taking advantage of that, most people just use it.

[@SusanaXpeace2u]

I read this book years ago. I found it ridiculous. But I am a single parent. I shouldn't have tortured myself reading it. I was just feeling sh1t and flagellating myself.

[@nuxxy_]

TRUUUUUUUUUU thank you

[@strwbryblondi07]

I read this book for the first time last year and was surprised at how helpful and practical it was considering how much I've mostly heard peope hating on it in recent years. Something I've come to conclude since then is that a factor women have stacked against us in the workplace that we dont talk about is the added benefit men have from their WIVES. How many C-suite women have a spouse prepping their meals, handling everything related to children (school meetings, clothes, birthday parties), your own appointments, gifts for the holidays, etc. At best, maybe this is shared evenly (doubtful) or, most likely (as "women's work" = shit work to men that they simply find beneath them) parts of it are outsourced. So tradwives are a superpower trad men have to privde bandwith and focus that regular women have to compete with. Until the US gets up to this century in terms of parental leave and actually encourages men to use it and be involved with child rearing from early days, I don't see this changing, and women will continue to pick Team Tradwife or Team Childfree/Career because we have seen you cant have it all without fetting burnt out and/or judged (but men of course can).

[@andersonisowo9603]

I would say many c suite men don't have wives preparing their meals or any of that stuff. Most of this work is probably done by servants, who are probably migrants who suffer from abuse at some level. The problem is that peer structures promote particular models of families for elites, which is why you often end up with do-nothing suburban wives (who are often engaged in politics detrimental to women who are not them) but also maids.

[@katerinaschenke819]

Oddly I feel like the tradwife is the career woman on steroids. They have to hide making money by encasing it in homemaking.

[@Jamhael1]

Man never had it all. What make you believe women can?

[@strwbryblondi07]

@Jamhael1 so men don't successfully have a career and family (with their name), typically with their sex partner handling the vast majority of home-related tasks so they can succeed at and focus on their paid employment?

[@rharvey1227]

The woman in the middle seems to have the most relevant experience as it pertains to this book, so she probably should have been leading the conversation.

[@Belihoney]

I didnt get the impression that one person was leading the convo

[@annabellejohnson3549]

This came out while I was in B-school and I’d already had 10 years of professional experience enough to know it was complete bs - the issue is not women needing to do more rather men needing to share power, authority and control - don’t hold your breath on that. Same playing field, extremely different rules.

[@sashafeagin]

I am very much enjoying these conversations! My binge-itis wants to watch the next installment RIGHT NOW lol. But I'll be patient. Thank you for this, Chelsea

[@haruspex0]

Interesting how the woman on the left interrupted the woman in the middle to give an anecdote about interrupting

[@Fernando31611]

They have names, you know?

[@MKatelynn]

I noticed that too

[@rachelb2717]

She is the host of the podcast. It is her job to direct the conversation. I don’t feel like you would be concerned about how polite she is being if she was a man.

[@MKatelynn]

@@Fernando31611 care to drop the names here? I didn't catch their names

[@GoblinsAreAGirlsBestFriend]

I can't feel bad saying the guests were really hard to listen to with their scattered and unfocused ideas and language, when you didn't even bother to give them a proper mic setup. I normally love your content but this is grating, unorganized, muffled word salad material.

[@bertarovira]

I agree... They were stepping onto each other all the time and made it hard to follow their thoughts... Weird dynamic between them two

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Yeesh that’s harsh. But I agree in a lesser way. I think that their chemistry was very idk nervous? Maybe because they weren’t comfy or something?

[@catscats4427]

Would’ve been nice to see a woc voice at the panel.

[@butterfish-g9f]

Exactly because you have the dual barriers of navigating a male dominated space that often lock women into specific roles and an environment that locks many minorities into roles based on stereotypes. Actively trying to push back against both can often get you fired, or replaced and demoted, in record time.

[@catscats4427]

@ exactly. The nuance is sorely needed and missed here. I wonder if a woc would have the luxury of taking the good while leaving the bad. I know I don’t.

[@saltycrunch]

Would she have been saying anything radically different?

[@catscats4427]

@@saltycrunch don’t know, I would have.

[@Private.eye.007]

The type of feminism they’re describing by is essentially exclusively white

[@tnic3255]

Such a good conversation! As a chronically underpaid and undervalued gen x, I love the even handed and level headed review and discussion of this book.

[@tross-lj2eb]

being a corp exec is very gamified, you suddenly feel like a powerful person in your own life and it can be so addictive if you grew up feeling disempowered for any reason, say, being a petite woman or being lower middle class...

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Nailed it. It’s very corrupting….

[@Wee_Catalyst]

8:30 The ERA technically passed Congress and then the states failed to ratify so it was never FULLY passed and never ENACTED . . . The point sounded weird premised on the general idea of “[it] passed”

[@laurainthesky3765]

I found this book inspirational in helping me work through impostor syndrome and be more assertive in the workplace as a Healthcare provider. My brain automatically threw out all the crazy COO stuff. If you want to sit at the very top, work comes before all else. I have zero interest in that.

[@scootergirl3662]

I kind of want to read this as a autistic woman who has more or less given up on the corporate world/realized that it has nothing for her that she really wants And just see how much I rage at it Well, at the same time, appreciate that there is some thing that got popular, but told women it was OK to take up space, which was something that was very discouraged when I was growing up It’s complicated

[@nuxxy_]

thats cool i like that. but everybody could give up on it. they don't like when we take edibles and bake cookies 😢 .... or is it the other way round? 😂

[@SuperStella1111]

That isn’t a new message. Girls have always been told to take up room, we just constantly pretend the message is new.

[@lisapt6702]

Love this conversation. I’m a 60 year old electrical engineer. When I was in college (in the 80s) 3% of the electrical engineers were women, it is now up to 10%. I’ve always been aware that I am invading the men’s treehouse. If I didn’t follow the rules they set for me, I would be kicked out- not necessary fired, but not invited to important discussions and meetings or not assigned to the priority projects. I understand I capitulated and put up with a lot of crap I shouldn’t have, but I desperately wanted to prove women are capable of doing tech jobs (a whole lot of people think we aren’t) in order to open doors for the women who are entering the treehouse after me - which I couldn’t do if I got kicked out. Honestly, I have no idea if anything I did helped at all, but I’m not done yet even though being a old woman in tech is a whole new adventure

[@Uncle_Smidge]

I mever read it because the title just seemed like corporate jargon. No, Backy, I do not need to shift paradigms and harmonize outputs.

[@nuxxy_]

tbf backy got us all more vacation time this year .... which means i get to sleep in 😮

[@ChristopherSadlowski]

😂😂😂

[@Napti435]

I loved seeing the differences in opinions about the book in the discussion. One thing the discussion doesn’t bring up about why the advice doesn’t work is that it doesn’t consider other dynamics in the workplace like race. As a non-white person in a tech role in a tech company that thinks of itself as very progressive, I know that what I say is viewed differently than the dozen white, male peers I have. I have had to put in way more effort into getting taken seriously than I should have to. “Leaning in” does absolutely nothing to change that.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Would LOVE to hear more about that

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

I guess a silver lining is 'wow, we really have advanced a lot in the public nuance of the discussion in 11 years'

[@aplden570]

I really can't stand how much the commenters are hating on the guests. There is nothing wrong with the guests, and if you don't like their style, you do you, but you are not the final arbiter of podcasting style. Smdh.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Yessssss

[@bethsellers1796]

I hate this book. I am childless and it is USELESS

[@KylieJelane-p9f]

I’ve really enjoyed this series. I want more.

[@Wee_Catalyst]

Same!

[@auntiemame7076]

I appreciate the conversation and am a fan of Chelsea and her channel. As a middle aged woman, I will also offer up that hearing women constantly saying “like” makes them sound less impactful to me and is hard to listen to. I get that some will want to hate on me for this observation but it is how a lot of us feel so it may be worth considering when you are trying to communicate in a way others will hear you.

[@MandalaBunnyhome]

I couldn't listen to this one because I found their voices incredibly annoying. Which sucks bc I'm interested in their thoughts but it's like nails on a chalkboard

[@aandromeda7724]

Also, the one on the left, spends her life waiting for everyone else to stop talking so she can start talking. Sometimes, she doesn’t even wait!

[@wen6519]

Y'all, just ask people to send you emails with their proposals 😂. Instead of asking people to change, which honestly even if you are a woman, if I saw you say that to another woman at work, I would think that's rude even though I'm not a woman. With emails you don't have to be bothered by their mannerisms or shrill voices😂

[@jabariwelsh8357]

Give it a rest ma’am

[@carmagana]

💯

[@kelsidecarlo3977]

Keep the book discussions coming!!

[@ArielLVT]

Whenever folks start a critique of "Lean In" by stating that it didn't do enough to address unequal work conditions I immediately know that they didn't read the book. That or they didn't actually absorb what Sandberg had written. The book literally starts with, and I'm summarizing, "The system is unequal and marginalizes women. It needs to change. This book isn't intended to address systemic change however, it is intended to address what you as a woman can do tomorrow to improve your professional situation". That's it. That's all. The book acknowledges the systematic inequalities, and explicitly explains that that is not what it's about. It's not perfect by any means. Sandberg is a cold, hard capitalist who I couldn't relate to in a thousand lifetimes, but if you're going to critique the book don't go the "it doesn't address the systematic problems" route.

[@wen6519]

... But the presenters literally said that they liked the book wasn't pretending to be something that it isn't? They said exactly what you said before they went into the deep end...?

[@ArielLVT]

@@wen6519 I hear ya. I'm just addressing the most common criticism of this book I heard when it first came out.

[@teenindustry]

I completely agree.

[@DivaViews]

I wish they had done these one at a time and then edited because the lack of audio on the woman in the middle is killing me and should have been fixed. Lapel mics would have worked better for this format.

[@amandamorgan8006]

I read this book the year it published, and it has been very interesting to listen to your perspectives as this advice has aged over the last 10+ years. Thank you for your thoughts!

[@drcynthiabmcneill]

Great conversation. Please read LEAN OUT by Marissa Orr, it is kind of a response ‘no response’ to LEAN IN. It is very interesting from someone who had worked with Sheryl Sandberg.

[@squenneville1]

I think it’s likely that the “no male/female alone time” rule at Dave Ramsey probably came about after it was revealed that Chris Hogan got fired for having an affair with a coworker.

[@wen6519]

Aaaaaand the tea was spilled. Thank you @squennevillel

[@moneypro85]

These rules always disproportionate impact women. If it's a hassle to keep women around, men will just stop.

[@numericalcode]

The mixed strategy (change the system + work the system) is most effective. The most useful tactic sadly is to be Machiavellian and pull the levers on people's existing biases. But if you are smart about it, you can influence the system for the better as well as take advantage of it.

[@jaetine9006]

The danger in that is by the time most are able to take advantage of the system, they forget or no longer have a desire to change it. They get too comfortable in their success, or just lose perspective and literally forget what it was like to not have that power, money, and influence. It’s why so many older people are convinced that they “worked hard and pulled themselves up by their boot straps” while “kids these days are so lazy and don’t want to work for anything.” The system corrupts and it corrupts absolutely.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Legally Blonde: Don’t fight the law, change it.

[@wen6519]

I felt relieved it this episode seeing all three of you having slightly opposing to opposing views depending on the section of the book, and how all three of you gently stood your ground on your ideas and on your facts. Separate from that, i dont like the idea of bribging your full self to work. Listen, I have mental health issues and other drama; I am okay with leaving that at the door and trying to show up as my better smaller self when im at work; when ish is too bad, I have and take the privilege of wfh; I wont be the one quitting with vacation days pending, because like y'all said, the company will still give me the boot if the economy goes South. I dont expect or judge everyone to compartmentalize themselves at work, but I do find it easier for me to bring only 30% of me, the easiest and better part of me, and steel myself for the other 70% when i clock out.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

💯 compartmentalizing is CRUCIAL to have healthy balance

[@KittenCasserole]

This series is so hot, please never stop it

[@ninaluisakirsch]

Oh how I waited for this video ❤

[@Wee_Catalyst]

🎉

[@soapaddict09]

35:15 when talking about female performers who do not bring a female opener, Chelsea Handler does this. I saw this performance in 2023.

[@brymht]

Honestly, this seems like a conversation for people in upper management; regardless of sex. Normal people don't think like this or do a lot of this. This is a book and an episode about extremely ambitious, educated, risk tolerant people; which seems like would it skew male in any case since for better and for worse men have a much higher tendency to take risks. (Which is why they are far more likely to gamble for instance)

[@mart2037]

Another book recommendation for this series would be Kelly Cutrone's "If you have to cry, go outside." Unless you were the one that did that... can't remember who recommended that. Or a fun one recently for Xmas was "The financial wisdom of Ebenezer Scrooge."

[@BriggsSeekins]

I hate this book a lot but it's unfair to compare it to Rich Dad Poor Dad. It was useful the way Dale Carnegie was. I do not believe Rich Dad was useful for anybody who wasn't selling it to a downline

[@tonioinverness]

I mean, that's a fairly sweeping statement. RDPD was helpful to me--someone from a lower-middle-class background who had BARELY thought about wealth accumulation before. True, I didn't build my whole financial identity around it, but you can't underestimate how little a person of my background knows about money, to the point where pretty much ANYTHING would be news. To me, it was news that having wealth wasn't just some magical thing that other people just mysteriously have somehow. It was something you could make strategies about acquiring. And the idea that you could build wealth by doing something other than exchanging your time for cash was brand new information to me. Maybe I was just dumb. That's fine, but I had to start somewhere.

[@mmmmmmolly]

​@tonioinverness okay, and did you put anything from it in practice and accumulated wealth?

[@tonioinverness]

@@mmmmmmolly Yes, absolutely. That's when I went from being a freelancer in my industry to building a business. It never occurred to me before that I could get out of the trap of simply exchanging my labor for cash on an hour-by-hour basis. Again, maybe I was just dumb or naive; I accept that. But I had nowhere else to learn these ideas and that book was the first glimpse I had that another way was possible. Beyond that, I am currently working on saving up enough money to convert my back house into a small rental unit. That never would have occurred to me without shifting my thinking to the concept of owning assets rather than liabilities. So it was all at the conceptual level. As the video states, the book itself is way too messy and all over the place to do something as specific as, say, create a business plan from. It's not going to help you with that. But for people who have never before been exposed to concepts of wealth building, it's one place to start. And that's a LOT more people than many people suspect.

[@tacrewgirl]

Like you ladies says, this book had a lot of good stuff for a certain demographic. I guess I could see thru her odd aspirations and take the good. I think it was good to tell women to speak up for themselves and let them tell you no before you talk yourself out of an opportunity. Another gem was talking about how men may be 30% qualified and will apply for a job but women want to be 150% qualified first. I thought it had more helpful tips than not. Looking forward to part two. This book was way better than Rich Dad Poor Dad. Enjoying this series. Thanks ladies.

[@navytanutrof1823]

This is just crazy!!! So if one person keeps their hand up and someone else does not that’s a problem for the person who kept their hand up? Are we for real? If you are not aggressive enough simply to keep a hand up who is to blame for that? This is crazy!! SMH. I guess it’s true men and women see the world really really differently.

[@SheetalBelagali]

Coming from a country whose native language is not English, I'm surprised by the number of fillers used in the conversation! All I hear is "like", "i think","you know" making the conversation less interesting and taking all the attention away from anything credible being shared!

[@kfairban-m7r]

I think that’s the fault of the two guests - not sure if it was nerves or if they’re just like this - haven’t listened to their podcast

[@rachelb2717]

Having a problem with women using inherently “feminine” phrases while talking about serious issues is sexist.

[@ChristopherSadlowski]

It's really difficult to not have those sorts of words popping up in any language when the program isn't scripted. This is a very laid back and conversational style video series. If it was scripted, and everyone had their part to read, all of those filler words would be edited out before recording.

[@SheetalBelagali]

@@kfairban-m7r I'm afraid the host is no different!

[@SheetalBelagali]

@@ChristopherSadlowski I believe this video too has gone through some rounds of editing.

[@kasiahutka7887]

Sorry, how, in practice, working 90h per week works? 15h per day, 6 times per week? Or almost 13h per day, without a day off? Where's the time for other activities outside of work? I'm struggling to understand how people with such schedules really live. It's something that I've never seen in real life (I live in Europe). Is it just an urban legend?

[@fluffybunny813]

Not an urban legend unfortunately. Ive worked in Finance and in tech. My typical schedule looked like: 430-7a - work 7-9a - get ready and commute 9-630p - work 630-830p - dinner + workout (optional) 830-10p - work I usually refused to work on Saturdays to give myself a break. I worked most Sundays 12- 5 or 6.

[@mythebe]

I've seen "Lean In" used all over the place. I never knew where it came from, and it always made me roll my eyes because I knew it was mostly a meaningless marketing signal meant to make me feel like whatever candidate, product, business, or organization was saying "Lean in" expected that to be enough to make me trust they actually had anything to do with feminist theory. Anyhooch, I will read books by people I disagree with, but I come to this channel as a person in poverty for the budgeting advice. I have nothing to do with "earning wealth", so my only opinion about it is that there should be a low maximum limit to how much wealth each person is allowed to have. It seems like a ton of people have been influenced by these books, but it would be incredibly boring for someone like me to read Rich Dad Poor Dad, or Lean In. I'm grateful to have gotten the gist from this series, so I can have an understanding of how a lot of people might be feeling about earning wealth.

[@bethanybsoprano]

You guys need to do a collab with If Books Could Kill podcast! The Venn Diagram is a circle.

[@grumpy_hedgehog]

10:40 What “third thing” do you think we can build? There will always be a “boy’s club” for as long as there are boys, and learning to play nice with them will always be a winning strategy.

[@mariayo4284]

These days - with regard to the fame of the trad wife content - the question is if it bodily possible for some women (especially disadvantaged ones, poorer ones) to lean it. You have to have a certain amount of status and ressources to do so.

[@kimberlybega8271]

I had a hunch the second book in this series was going to be either this book or one of the Rachel Hollis books.

[@scoobydont]

Really interested in these book review videos but the audio always seems a bit off to me 😩

[@irinaphoenix2169]

"So 2,000 and LATE!"

[@sjwashere]

21 days is taking advantage of your leave? Yikes That's only a day over basic annual leave here. I think a lot of the toxicity seems to be coming from workers fighting for scraps. The company is the enemy here, not other staff.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Facts.

[@mheuman]

Thanks fr digging into Lean In. I've sen the damage that Ms. Sandberg's advice is doing to the corporate culture, I'm enjoying hearing your take on it. Well done, everyone. Can't wait for the next installment.

[@vida2459]

These are great topics but I can’t sit through it. The two guests are painful to listen to. It’s rambly

[@patriciar2946]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this reaction. I find their voices to be so grating as well. I'm sure this is a great discussion but I had to tap out at 14 minutes.

[@saltycrunch]

I feel bad saying it, but yeah the guests need to go. The 3-way conversation format doesn't work very well for these kinds of videos. I think a lot (most?) of us would prefer if it were just Chelsea speaking on the topic.

[@rosalieo5045]

I absolutely agree

[@bigelowkaryn]

Im enjoying these book talks. This book discussion also made me curious where this lands with the perspectives of women of color

[@malinullberg]

Would you do an episode on Your Money or Your Life?

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Yesss let’s put some positivity into the convo!

[@FudgeGirl25]

So excited!

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

23:00 10/10 agree. Have worked at very mentor-focused culture jobs, and very blue collar that’s-how-it’s-always-been jobs. Polar opposite in the room to negotiate, and I’ll tell you, one became a huge ginormous business and was alllllways growing and changing , it blew up in 6 years to a huge degree. The other never changed, but because they started a hundred years ago, it’s just massive and always attaining more capital (some of which is now stranded assets), and had a turnover rate so high, their histogram of employee retention was 80% stayed under two years, 5% stayed 10+ years, because they’re following these ANCIENT career models

[@chocolatchaud3011]

Really love this series, you should continue and do more books.

[@fisrebel]

An ancillary aspect of this book is the way money was poured into making it a "cultural" event. It was marketed and summarized and engineered into the "zetgeist" without earning it In a way it relates some of what has been revealed recently about the Blake Lively backlash during her It Ends With Us press tour. It may look like an "organic" conversation that just sprung up, but there are players who enginnee and design these things and a lot of thungs that look like organic (anither example is bestseller lists) is actually teams and money and startegies behind it. lean in didn't rise to the top against all other advice books, it had a mega budget and strategy pushing it. Because sandberg as this conversation points to wanted cultural power and cache, more than money or anything else

[@j.r.4627]

19:54 Randomly calling on law students is a standard practice in legal education since socrates.

[@wen6519]

I guess sometimes men need to read cheesy books to remember the useful parts of the Roman empire 😂 also, somebody tell a law student they know that they are doing a good job 🥲, they are 🥲

[@j.r.4627]

@wen6519 For sure and you're right about the book being cheesy. I'm glad that I never read it because that anecdote wasn't some epiphany for that law professor. Random questioning is part of the socratic method & standard in most, if not all law schools. Most, if not all lawyers and law professors went through the socratic method. I wonder how many more true/ not true stories are in the book.

[@terriw6116]

I don't think I'll be watching the rest of this series because the rapport with the cohosts is off, and many times people don't get to finish their thoughts without being interrupted. I love TFD though and look forward to more from Chelsea or other guests ❤❤

[@aj2thamaxx742]

29:45 the author is basically saying to women in leadership is that, your labor is already being exploited to hell, optimize how your being exploited and lean in to more inequity, which is a terrible take. What good is “breaking the glass ceiling” if women are expected to act in ways that create more of a pay gap and make their lives more difficult.

[@gianinapapetti9803]

Loving this collab❤

[@nuxxy_]

i actually rewatched the begining and it feels like a rejection of the inherant violence of human nature even tho all competition is violence...wierd😮 i need to read it

[@MH-ku5kn]

Connie Chung also had race issues to fight as well as being a woman. Calling her a pick me feels… wrong in a different way.

[@carmagana]

The guest speakers seem to have no sense of the role of race/ethnicity plays in all of this.

[@MH-ku5kn]

@@carmagana intersectionality is missing for sure. I’m not even Asian and that just feels slimy to hear.

[@MKatelynn]

The girl in the blue always interrupts and dominates the conversation without much to add.

[@Wee_Catalyst]

I think some of it is editing but I definitely see what you’re saying-their style feels a bit like siblings fighting to tell the story and talking over each other instead of a smoother interjection style

[@scootergirl3662]

Maybe my standards have been set very low by the H3H3 podcast and other podcasts like that, but I really didn’t think it was all that bad. There were some people talking over each other out of excitement, but that happens in most normal conversations and it doesn’t really interrupt the flow Also, she does add a counterpoint to the more anti-capitalist other hosts so I have to wonder if you really think she didn’t have anything to add or if you just didn’t like the points she had to make

[@MKatelynn]

@scootergirl3662 given I'm not an anti capitalist, your point is not really valid or on point. I'm for economic systems in moderation (or a blend perhaps). You're probably used to other podcasts, but I was raised in an environment where cutting people off like that was rude especially when it's a public event/ not at home with siblings. She added a few points like you mention but not really when she's cutting off the other girl. If you watch it again the other girl seems to get annoyed a few times and even says "that's what I was going to say," but doesn't get a chance to say it . If you also watch their take on rich dad poor dad it was even worse, so maybe I already don't like her approach. She gives off "compete against the other woman" vs actually being interested in hearing what others have to say. If you watch their rich dad poor dad video Chelsea is even trying to reign it in a bit and even struggles to get a word in. I guess I'm just used to a culture where people are more contentious regarding giving others an opportunity to talk and "share the stage". The reason why I love watching Chelsea usually even if I don't always agree with her (used to watch her and Dave Ramsey for context until he voted for Trump), but she always listened and had good questions to ask guests, even the ones she disagreed with. That's what made it interesting. The other girl takes up more space and offers fewer insights in comparison (brain dumps vs. asking and listening), which is what I'm getting at. Also, not sure why you'd assume I'm just blinded by hating capitalist ideas, that's honestly a bit odd and tells me more about people you've engaged with previously than about my point.

[@bertarovira]

OMG I scrolled through the comments wondering if anyone felt annoyed by that too. She is stepping over the middle girl all the time it makes it hard to follow...

[@Hope4More312]

I wanted to listen to this show but couldn’t listen all the way through. As women, our speech and delivery needs to come across impactful and less Kardashian. I’m sorry, I’m not trying to hate on our own sex, but if I can’t take this seriously, then I doubt many men will.

[@ornenow4703]

Maybe you should check your own bias

[@tammiepulley7167]

I agree with hopeformore’s comment. This was hard to listen to. The word “like” was injected way too much.

[@kayleycoons2263]

But like, I'd like, love to like hear uptalk for an hour or whatever before gleaning a point!

[@rachelb2717]

Maybe you should evaluate why you feel that way

[@hopedodson8058]

Ladies, please hear me out. I love TFD. Been a listener for a couple of years. However, this discussion was almost unintelligible due to all the filler words (like, you know) and the constant higher pitch at the middle and ends of so many sentences. It makes every thought sound like a question. I’m only 22 minutes in and can’t take it anymore. The lady who said she was to interview after vacation but then they hired before she got back… PLEASE read a transcript of this video and highlight every time you said “like” (sometimes 5 times in a single sentence). Also please work on making statements without the higher pitch making everything you say sound like a question. This is what teenagers do. Everyone: The filler words completely dilute the impact of your thoughts. The constant “questions” make it sound like you are pleading with the listener to hear you out rather than you giving clear, concise statements like a powerful adult woman. I’m ok if you hate me if you will please deeply consider what I’m telling you. You will do SO much better in any business if you do. I’m a 59 year old woman who spent 19 years working for industry in biotechnology. I’ve been there and had to work on this myself in my younger years. 💕

[@carmagana]

💯💯💯💯

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Lady, please hear me out. Giving criticism like this is also a skill, just like communication. It can be learned though, so don’t worry you can get better 💕

[@hopedodson8058]

@@chelseashurmantine8153 Like I said… I don’t care if they hate me. This was so bad, considering they are professional commentators, that a direct and blunt response was warranted.

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

@@hopedodson8058Ok keep being cool with being hated for being a hater then.

[@meg7578]

Are these two in all the videos? The kiyosaki video was a bit unwatchable 😢

[@karenmontgomery5274]

Ok I wanted so badly to hear this conversation but only got to min 13 before the “like” , like like speech killed it. Come on ,, educated women don’t speak like Juvies . It totally off set any intelligent narrative. Please ladies ,, Chelsea .. you as well.. think about what your sentence needs to be… I guarantee another “ like “ is NOT indicated in 90% of the time….

[@ornenow4703]

What exactly do you want them to do about the way they talk? Take speech courses and then re-record this episode? 😂 Maybe you should open up your ears more instead of using your energy to judge.

[@saltycrunch]

@@ornenow4703 what an immature comment. Yes, it's very possible to learn how to improve one's speaking abilities. Lots of people are commenting on how they found the uptalk and unnecessary words, such as repeated "likes", distracting. It's constructive criticism and not meant as a personal attack.

[@rachelb2717]

Policing the way women are taught to speak is inherently sexist.

[@hopedodson8058]

@@saltycrunch 💯

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Bro what is your grammar? Do you even know how to use punctuation?

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Celebrity Memoir Book Club omg that’s awesome! Also, Indra Nooyi and Sheryl Sandberg are truly two of a kind lol

[@ornenow4703]

I think all the people who are critiquing the women for their "up talk" really need to take a step back and think about what the actual issue is. Is it "diatracting" or have you internalized the sexism that says women who talk a certain way can't be taken seriously? 🤔

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

Yeah it’s basically a ton of misogyny in this comment section…..

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

There is a lot of misogyny in the comments. People are criticizing the verbal tics of the hosts but not doing so gently….. fun fact: communication is a skill that is learned. Shitting on someone does not teach them skills. So yeah I liked the opinions that were shared but a lot of the video was hard to watch because of the lack of 1, sound equipment, and 2, communication skills from the guests, but I can get over it because I used to speak those ways too. Blue shirt likes to bite out her words as quickly as possible which lends a sense of insecurity to her opinions that make the listener shut down to dodge the tone, and the other one is speaking before she’s collected her thoughts so that her sentences change pace by speeding up and slowing down irregularly, and particularly slowly, with too much “thinking out loud” via filler words and zero steady pacing. This also turns off the listener from hearing the message because the message, frankly, isn’t formed by the time it’s being shared. I used to do both of these things. I still do, but at least now I know what they are lol. It’s hard to communicate bruh! Like literally people get degrees in it. I loved everyone’s opinions so I’m guessing it was a long shoot and this was at the end of the day? Caffeine wore off? Or maybe there just wasn’t a sense of comfort between all three of the hosts but I still enjoyed the show. I felt that the opinions about how the author took and addressed criticism was a take I had not heard before on this book so I found it enjoyable. I haven’t read the book and don’t plan to. Read the Rick Dad Poor Dad etc and many other stupid finance books, some woman giving me respectability politic is off the table for my valuable reading energy lol. But thank you all for your opinions and I’m sorry for all the assy comments in this comment section. You deserve better, and it’s ok to have room for improvement.

[@nuxxy_]

coorparate latters are a chaos?????????????????? it doesnt work in reverse 😢

[@nuxxy_]

actually nah i want a series on how each form of feminism ESSPECIALLY the 70's goddess feminism imagines both ego death and a gothic rebirth of human nature that mary shelly would get bogged down in. GALVENISE COORPORATE CULTURE! RESURECT TECHNO AMERICANO IN ITS PLACE!

[@AbiCroCro]

Taking it on the chin or carrying it on their shoulders

[@teenindustry]

This book gets way more hate than necessary. I feel like a lot of the criticism is from people who didn’t even read it. She addresses that she could not write for people without some level of privilege because she doesn’t know what it’s like. As a woman who used to work in a male dominated industry lots of her advice is legitimate. The reality is that anyone is successful has to understand and speak the language of those in power. It is not perfect and she has admitted as much which is more than any guy in her position ever did

[@rankincreates9500]

Loved this pod and content! Yall are excellent but, said with the most amount of love, the amount of, 'like,' in the conversion makes it hard to take in at moments.

[@quackdracular7610]

Lemme guess. You're a Gen X or older 😂. Drives me crazy too.

[@rankincreates9500]

@quackdracular7610 hahahaha nope- millenial! But I've trained in public speaking so removing filler words was drilled into me.

[@nuxxy_]

actually.......daaaaaaaaaaamb i wonder how the writer would think of her job if she was the captain of mouthwashing? thats crazy! now i want to read just to write my own fan fiction of how responsiblilty goes sideways from an older form of feminism. does this person ever imagine themselves taking the sacrifice or taking the bet when being captian.........that could be like a whole series just keeping track of the leadership in feminist roles and how often theres a forgive or a propotionate response or a take.

[@jennym6167]

Why is it okay for this book to be acceptable for a specific demographic but not that rich dad poor dad one?

[@grassclippings2234]

Commented for the algorithm

[@deegall6160]

Stop saying "like"!

[@rachelb2717]

Getting mad at women for saying “feminine” filler words is sexist and doesn’t affect the value of the conversation.

[@deegall6160]

@rachelb2717 I equally hate when men do it too. It is a sign of immaturity in speech and vocabulary. It is also the incorrect usage of the word and shows the speaker is unprepared. When I worked in sales, that was one of the first thing we corrected in a newbie fresh from college, make or female.

[@hopedodson8058]

@@rachelb2717 Feminine use of passive voice is one thing. Overuse of filler words is another.

[@egr113]

"Like, like, like, like... "

[@AaronMartinColby]

Yeah Rhode Island!!!