The Convoy and the U-Boat: SS J. L. Luckenbach, HMS Orama and SM U-62

[@francispitts9440]

My Paternal Grandfather was a Marine in WW I and I remember he held the sailors in high regard because of how they faced the U-Boat threat they sailed through and fought in the dangerous North Atlantic. He saw combat in Belleau Wood yet he felt these sailors were braver than him. It said a lot to me especially as a young boy. I later became a Marine and I had great respect for the U. S. Navy sailors I served along side with. When my son asked me what the best armed forces branch I could think of is, I told him the story of WW I and the Navy. Then I told him what my Grandfather had said and how impressive that is in itself. He served in the United States Navy and I couldn’t be prouder.

[@chuckh5999]

fancy being a sailor on a munitions or refueller. They were the bravest of the brave.

[@rogergallagher5511]

My grandfather and great-aunt travelled to Australia on the Orama's maiden voyage in 1911.

[@bigsarge2085]

Thanks for sharing your bit of intriguing history!

[@lizj5740]

@@bigsarge2085 I hope you weren't being sarcastic. I love these little personal snippets. Also, this one tells us that the Orama was only 6 years old when she was lost forever.

[@thomasgreene5750]

My grandfather served aboard one of those four-stack destroyers during WW1. He went from herding cattle on the ranges of the American West to herding ships on the Atlantic in a matter of months.

[@davidbenner2289]

My mother's father was on a destroyer in the Atlantic during WWI. Later, my father's brother was on a destroyer during the Korean War in the South China Sea. He earned his Combat Action Ribbon when the Chinese Communists shelled his convoy of three destroyers off the coast of Korea.

[@KarlPHorse]

A cowboy and a sailor? Your grandpa must have been tough as nails. Those are two of the hardest fucking jobs you can do even today, and especially back then. And a sailor in a global conflict no less. Badass.

[@davidbenner2289]

@@KarlPHorse no. My my mother's father was a sailor on a destroyer in WWI. My dad's grandfather was a lumberjack and a town marshal in Montana and a deputy sheriff and Indian agent on a reservation in Idaho. Dear old dad was a simple master spy and gurilla trainer/leader, undercover, overseas after he left the service in WWII (combat medic/surgical tech in a surgical hospital). We're not that tough.

[@davidbenner2289]

@@KarlPHorse my dad's brother was shelled of the coast of Korea during the Korean War. He was a sailor on a destroyer. That's about the time had parachuted twice into Manchuria, Communist China during the Korean War.

[@KarlPHorse]

@@davidbenner2289 I wasn’t being sarcastic, chill.

[@DRNewcomb]

My grandmother and her family arrived in NY onboard SS Saale (later SS J L Luckenbach)

[@otpyrcralphpierre1742]

My Dad served in the Merchant Marine during WW2. He grappled with U-boats and German Raiders. Went all around the world on tankers and cargo ships, hauling Hi-test aircraft gasoline on tankers, and bombs and ammunition on the cargo ships. He didn't talk about the war very much, but the few times he spoke about it, it was a harrowing experience. One note that not many know, that as a Percentage basis, the Merchant Marines suffered the Highest casualty rate of any any service during WW2. We lost Dad about 9 years ago. I miss him still. He was a Beautiful Man.

[@John-ru5ud]

The cooperation between the Royal Navy and the United States Navy in defendant the western approaches was incredible. At one point the RN admiral in charge put the USN admiral in charge for several day ... the first time that the RN was under USN command.

[@ObservingtheObvious]

It is great fun to me when stories collide. This story and the ‘The Great Dockfire’ relationship , feed that fun.

[@christopherlynch3314]

I simply adore stories of defiance in the face of impossible odds.

[@Ozymandius1977]

Battle of Samar as told by Drachinifel is a good one. (Search: Odds what are those)

[@quillmaurer6563]

Interesting how at the end he brought this around to the history of the Hoboken dock fires, which he did a video on quite recently. Everything ties together somehow.

[@rherman9085]

I was caught off guard by the ending but it was a pleasant surprise!

[@leftoffcolfax]

History often does that. Event leads to event. Sometimes prominent, sometimes obscure, and sometimes the stories of legend.

[@quillmaurer6563]

@@leftoffcolfax True, everything is somehow tied to everything. But lately particularly, I've noticed The History Guy's videos seem to sort of link together, some aspect of one relating to something from another recent one, with little mention of his other video. Likewise recently he did a video on the USS Texas' involvement in D-day, and shortly after another video about another Allied invasion that the USS Texas also played a major role in. Both ended talking about the museum restoring the USS Texas.

[@MrTaxiRob]

@@quillmaurer6563 it could be that during his research for one topic, he ends up going down the rabbit hole that leads to the next.

[@quillmaurer6563]

@@MrTaxiRob Good point - I've been on enough Wikipedia loops to see how that could happen.

[@TBullCajunbreadmaker]

I served aboard the USS Conyngham (Cunningham) during the very early 1970s. It was the 3rd Destroyer to be named after this name and the motto was "Can Do" Anytime-Anywhere.

[@snoodles1234]

You should do a Story on HMS Jervis Bay, The balls of a crew to take on a Heavy Cruiser in a armed merchant vessel NEEDS to be remembered.

[@michaelevans205]

Or HMS Rawalpindi. Both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Only one outcome, of course.

[@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire]

Or HMS Glowworm

[@blackcountryme]

@@Peoples_Republic_of_Devonshire Remember the Glowworm...

[@blackcountryme]

@@michaelevans205 That ship was famous.

[@thanatosst]

I love hearing about smaller stories like this. It's a great way to make the events of the past more relatable; instead of a blurb in a textbook about "u-boats attacked shipping in the Atlantic during the war" it's a real story, with details about the men who fought, the trials they faced, and the experiences they lived. If content like this was used in the classroom when I was a kid, I'd likely have become a historian.

[@michaelimbesi2314]

It’s amazing how history intertwines like this! And it helps that you’re such a good storyteller

[@TheVetbird]

All the History Guy episodes are interesting, entertaining, and informative but I like the war stories best.

[@macnachten8822]

Been watching for about a year...I Love these histories that . . . deserve to be remembered!

[@celowski6296]

Back in WWII many of the Great Lakes ore carriers were used in the Atlantic convoys to provide provisions for UK. These old ore carriers were slow and not made for the ocean. You may want to look into doing a story about these.

[@courtneytaylor4654]

Greyhound is my brother's new favourite movie. It's all about a convoy crossing. I highly recommend it.

[@anti-Russia-sigma]

If you like WW2 naval fights,you should watch The Enemy Below, It ain’t historical,though.

[@tygrkhat4087]

@@anti-Russia-sigma Check out Das Boot; especially if you can get the German version with subtitles. A fictional story, but a very accurate portrayal of life below the sea.

[@JCoryell]

Action In The North Atlantic with Bogart is a good one, too

[@dwlopez57]

Convoy crossing? Not a bus trip? LOL

[@edstoutenburg3990]

@JZ's Best FriendA great Movie-Filmed on One of the RNs last operational Flower Class Corvettes.Based on the Book by Nicholas Monserrat,who had been a Escort Cdr in WW2. Also good reads are his auotbiographical 'The Three Corvettes' Probably still out there in used Paperbacks. And For a great book from the German perspective-'Iron Coffins, By Herbert Werner. Like ;Das Boot'-only not Historical Fiction.

[@jhoward8780]

Don't you just love history's great coincidences and ironies? Good stuff yet again.

[@sw2849]

My father survived the sinking of the SS Dorchester which was sunk by a German UBoat. So few survived this a disaster. My father has passed now but I would love this covered on your channel. The 4 priests got lots of coverage as they should but the survivors and the dead also need their stories told.

[@Onewheelordeal]

Love when episodes mention each other like this and the Hoboken fire

[@Linusgump]

As you were talking about the SS Luckenbach, all I could think about was Waylon, Willie, and the boys.

[@richardklug822]

I appreciate all your presentations, but especially enjoy those involving naval actions. In spite of evidence from WWI that the system works, the Allies would again grapple with anti convoy sentiment at the start of WW2, and more merchant seamen would needlessly die while the lessons were relearned.

[@samiam619]

The only one grappling about the convoy system was Admiral King, who had a hard on against the RN for some unknown reason.

[@vincentkudelycz258]

i wouldn't say there was much anti convoy sentiment at the start of WW2, it was voluntary, then mandatory. Not to say some Admirals still had bias towards it, seeing it as a waste of time when they could be hunting instead of being hunted. Though "Second Happy time" was the evident of the Navy's ignorance believing a convoy wouldn't be needed at the coast vs. the open ocean. As someone who was a Merchant Marine, i know of a tug boat who's whole crew was sunk in that event, one of them being the first female Merchant Marine killed and one of them being the youngest to be killed at 15.

[@ravex24]

I can't imagine a more perfectly timed video in my life than this right now. Amazing.

[@rogerwhittle2078]

The Admiralty readopted the convoy system quite quickly in the first world war, (despite many Captains and Admirals being opposed) and immediately in the second. The USN was less enthusiastic and while they patrolled the western Atlantic, they did not impose convoy rules until the situation up and down the Eastern seaboard became desparate. U-Boats were silhuoetting coastal merchantmen against the lights of Atlantic City and New York and picking them off. Eventually, (after Winston Churchill practically blew an artery) the lesson was learned and proper convoys crossed the Atlantic under joint USN and RN ships. I believe the change over point was called 'MOMP' - Mid Ocean Meeting Point. Thank goodness for all those Merchant Mariners. Great Vlog THG - as usual.

[@Jay-cj7xu]

I love your coverage of single boat engagements. It is a small piece of the men and history that truly does deserve to be remembered.

[@alanmoffat4454]

NOW THIS IS AN EXCELLENT FOLLOW-UP CHEERS MUCH ENJOYED 😉 .

[@cadekraske6168]

My goodness!! What a story!

[@blasterelforg7276]

So the range of the surface vessel guns determined the firing range of U-boats which dreaded getting hit, which is what made the convoy system a success in part because from afar U-boats enjoyed only 3%-4% shelling accuracy. With convoys, the U-boats would have to rely virtually entirely on torpedoes which were expensive and they only carried a few. Very good insightful analysis.

[@davek12]

They had a little ol' convoy Rockin' through the fight. They had a little ol' convoy Sailing just for spite. Come on and join the convoy Ain't Hitler gonna stop our way. We gonna sail this heckin' convoy Cross to the UK. Convoy.

[@darrinwright6758]

Very good.

[@chestercallahan8856]

Convooooooy

[@iflyxwings]

Wrong war though

[@alexaga3247]

Please think before to write. In WW1 Hitler was in trenches and hero of WW1 as ordinary fighter.

[@davek12]

@@iflyxwings Yeah, oops.

[@clydedopheide1033]

I love the way you tied this into the Hoboken fire episode.

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

There can't be many things more terrifying than coming under attack at sea - these were very brave men. Their sacrifice should never be forgotten.

[@ajg617]

I just happened to read the obit for a former neighbor of ours. He had told me his brother flew P-51s in ETO but never mentioned that he was in the Merchant Marines, on the Murmansk run and later in 1943 torpedoed off the coast of South Africa spending 6 days in a raft before being rescued. I never new. Truly brave.

[@ianmacfarlane1241]

@@ajg617 A lot of the merchant seamen didn't receive the same recognition as armed forces combatants, which was very unfortunate as they were incredibly brave men themselves. I suppose that people are naturally drawn to the exploits of the pilots of Fighter Command, the Desert Rats, the Chindits, the Commandos at St Nazaire, the Paras drops preceding D-Day, the combined forces in D-day itself - there are too many to mention, but the merchant seamen kept the Allies fighting, and at great cost.

[@bigsarge2085]

Always the best snippets of history!

[@keeganpenney169]

My granddad was a sparky for a Corvette iirc that protected Halifax harbour in ww2. Convoys are part of my bloodline, thanks for the video!

[@kendipietro6855]

The service you provide to us all by teaching us these fleeting moments in history may be far greater than you can imagine. As you know, without a sound understanding of where we came from, it's impossible to know where to set a course moving forward. What I suspect you can't comprehend is the vast number of people you educate. Yes, you can see the views but how many times each view is then used to educate others "second hand" is likely incalculable. Thank you. What you do has to be one of the most important functions not only on KZbin but also in our society.

[@2715bunky]

So much history wrapped up in one vessel.

[@taun856]

I really like how this ties in with the episode you did on the Hoboken fire. Well done!

[@dannyjones3840]

I love how this story ties into the last one about the Hoboken fire

[@a-a-ronbrowser1486]

With a even more menacing opening song... y’all gonna learn today!

[@828enigma6]

Fun fact. Cotton bales are extremely difficult to extinguish once ignited. They may smolder for two weeks even if immersed completely in water.

[@stevewixom9311]

THIS one was a really good one. Love learning about small unit actions. Whether you made it across the Atlantic or not was really just a roll of the dice. In WW2 i had an uncle that got suck twice. Neither time by a U-Boat but by aircraft.

[@sarjim4381]

Arming merchant ships was one of the turning points in submarine warfare. Having each merchant ship armed and with trained gun crews made it difficult for subs to surface near a target and sink the ship with gunfire from their deck guns. A sub could carry at least several hundred artillery rounds while only having 8-12 torpedoes. Sinkings were drastically reduced once U-boats had to rely on just theor torpedoes.

[@cornbreadfedkirkpatrick9647]

My dad was in the Army during WW 2 and he got irked sometimes about the merchant ships and how they got attention I never fully understood why to me everyone was needed

[@sarjim4381]

@@cornbreadfedkirkpatrick9647 Yes, my dad served on PT boats in WWII and always complained the aircraft carriers got all the attention. Just the way the military and war goes.

[@cornbreadfedkirkpatrick9647]

@@sarjim4381 I agree, oh, by the way, do you know the history of the PT boat let say they have the same connection as NASCAR

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

What "merchant ships"... these vessels carried military supplies (which includes the QE and Lusitania btw) and that makes them ships of war, even if they are no man-o-wars. If you don't want to be attacked, stop delivering contradband.

[@sarjim4381]

@@Ugly_German_Truths Many neutral ships carrying compledtely innocent cargoes were attacked and sunk. Before the advent of unrestricted warfare, such ships were stopped searched, and either sent on their way after inspection, seized, or sunk after taking off the crew. Any enemy flagged vessel was fair game, but unrestricted warfare led to innocent ships being sunk without warning.

[@robertconnor2934]

Love the picture of your cat in uniform. Great episode and tying it to the Hoboken Dock fire was genius

[@robbabcock_]

It was a fascinating time historically! A flood of new technology was making it's mark on warfare and all combatants were still figuring out the doctrine and use of the new machines!

[@ComicOzzieSU]

Thank you HG. WWI is a subject that never seems to get the attention it deserves.

[@charleswade2514]

Listening to you tell forgotten history is better than a college lecturer. Your the Paul Harvey of history. Have you considered using a wormhole as an introduction to channel.

[@sharonwhiteley6510]

Thank you for your tireless efforts to keep us apprised of History that should never happen forgotten.

[@jeffreyfeld9674]

All of your videos are great, but I think the vintage footage really helped bring this story to life. Did you see the roll on that destroyer? (7:02) Talk about walking on the bulkheads!

[@tomd5678]

An old lady lived in a house close to me. Her husband was an MP during the second world war and had also been a map maker. As a result he was chosen to drive Churchill and also a senior American military officer into Germany. After they had crossed a bridge Churchill asked the driver, "are we in Germany now" to which the driver said yes. Churchill asked the driver to stop the car, got out and urinated. He got back in and they continued

[@tygrkhat4087]

Many an allied soldier stopped to do their business in the Rhein.

[@goldgeologist5320]

Got to love Churchill! I just laughed strongly. Thank you.

[@dwlopez57]

A famous story

[@MjrDepression208]

I don't know why you're not at 10 mil subscribers, your content is amazing

[@kennethkellogg6556]

Note that the staggering month's total of tonnage sunk in April 1917 was never matched by the U-Boats in any month of WW2.

[@lexrichardson7820]

Aaahh-! Great to have another shot of history in my day! Thank you History Guy!

[@daveyoder9231]

I am glad to see a Naval Cat present!

[@RetiredSailor60]

Was stationed in Hampton Roads area, specifically Norfolk and Virginia Beach for 14 years. Visited Dakar, Senegal 🇸🇳 Dec 1993 during UNITAS/WATC (West Africa Training Cruise) deployment.

[@Markver1]

Nice tie-in to the other Hoboken Docks Fire video. I enjoy the “Connections” of James Burke’s style of history documentaries.

[@mobucks555]

I almost felt like I was there for a second. I love the submarine videos.

[@casparcoaster1936]

Have always avoided the ww1 uboat stories... being obssess with ww2, but this inspires me to go and have at it! Many tanx!!!

[@djolley61]

I love connections in history like that.

[@willyeverlearn7052]

Love the energy, love the content.

[@thomashaas5132]

Thank you so much for your wonderful stories.

[@bruces2193]

Really one of the best channels on KZbin!!

[@res00xua]

My father flew back to back missions all day on D day but not much is said about the sir corps contribution to the invasion.

[@David.Anderson]

I love the history guy. By far my favorite channel Thank you.

[@rh5971]

I just LOVE what you do, History Guy!!!

[@stevedietrich8936]

THG, did you get a new award? I see something new on the shelf just off your right shoulder. Also, it was interesting how this tied in with your Hoboken fire

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

Not exactly an award- but you might say I chose well…

[@moosifer3321]

Interesting video - the History Guy gives voice to yet another little remembered incident. It seems incredible that it took so long in WWI to implement the convoy system, used by many nations for centuaries, a lesson taken on board very quickly by the RN IN WWII but sadly, not by the USN on American entry into that conflict. The THIRD (ficticious!) Battle of the Atlantic is excellently covered in (the late) Tom Clancy`s `Red Storm RIsing` - well worth a read to see what COULD have happened had the Cold War not fizzled out (great play by POTUS Ronald!).

[@frankgulla2335]

Very nice. Short, concie and filled with exciting details and facts. Thank you.

[@f3xpmartian]

As already mentioned, like the tie in with the Hoboken Fire. Convoy duty, yuck, shivers down the spine. Wonder how the survivial rate changed with the implementaion of the convoys.

[@MarcSchreiberRealtor]

Excellent As always! Suggestion can you add more maps so we are able to visualize the areas in your stories? Thanks.

[@mfreund15448]

Great story that is worth remembering!

[@dmfraser1444]

I have not checked in for awhile. Pretty impressive new opening to the videos.

[@martinwyke]

You need to do a video about the WRENS of WATU (Western Approaches Tactical Unit) in WW2. They defeated an Admiral in a war game and turned him from sceptic to their biggest ally.

[@misterangel8486]

That was exquisite 👌😎👍 Thank you History Guy. 🙏

[@tobyeperkins5301]

Dad sailed on the USS Grampus during the Korean conflict. Its identifier number was SS 523. He worked training on the east coast. I would love to know more about her service while she was commissioned.

[@servingme09]

Thank you for bringing our history alive

[@fatboyrowing]

Another excellent story told… and remembered.

[@RobertJohnson-nk6mz]

A great segment! Thanks!!!

[@kaptainkaos1202]

At time 15:36 is a small picture of a Navy EP-3! My first aircraft I flew missions on.

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

That is a NOAA plane.

[@kaptainkaos1202]

Oops, WP-3..

[@billyyank2198]

"We got a mighty convoy, sailin' through the night!"

[@o_LL_o]

always great videos. Really like the social or product driven topics like cranberries and vanilla or the molasses spill, NY bank robbery

[@joeyaldente8858]

The very beginning makes me feel like I'm watching the history channel.

[@constipatedinsincity4424]

Back in the Saddle again!

[@doxdoomsday4948]

I always enjoy watching your episodes. Thank you for your hard work!

[@payne3249]

Nice video. Another great convoy of note is PQ17. Be cool if you covered it.

[@silverfawkes1219]

Your channel is awesome! May the blessings of the algorithm be upon you!

[@MrSpartanicus]

You always hear of the convoys of WWII so it’s nice to hear more about WWI.

[@shawnr771]

Interesting. Thank you for the lesson.

[@nitro105]

Great story! loved it.

[@mayorsman0417]

LOVE your work and this channel. My question: Shipping sunk is always expressed in tonnage. I wish to know the dollar value of all allied shipping sunk during World War II. Has there ever been any work done on this question?

[@TheHistoryGuyChannel]

I have not found such a calculation. Calculations of war financial costs tend to talk about military spending.

[@iainsanders4775]

PS. You might 'enjoy' relating how Italian Ace Visiani downed two RAF planes in one fell sweep in Eritrea. Interesting feller, a bit like Richthoven in cold-bloodedness. One of the pilots was my schoolteacher's brother.

[@timengineman2nd714]

A lot of people don't realize how much a (WW1 & WW2) Submarine deck pitches and rolls in the open ocean swell! These guns aren't stabilized (like many WW2 Surface Ships were) and this can make their gunnery accuracy suffer tremendously!! Hence needing to get close to be able to hit a ship often..... Which is why Armed Merchant Ships during WW1 were often able to hold off a gun battle with a sub, and why late war U-Boats started using their torpedos more often. (And late WW1 designs had a noticeably higher torpedo storage capacity!). Fortunately, WW1 were somewhat inaccurate, short range and didn't have a large warhead, and the explosive in the warhead wasn't as strong pound for pound as what most Navies used during WW2.....

[@stevegallagher687]

Well told as always. Thanks HG

[@marknesselhaus4376]

I always learn from watching your videos but this time my attention was diverted by the painting in the background. I never noticed it before and wondering about its history :-)

[@KPearce57]

Hoboken dock fire raised it head again .

[@Dannyedelman4231]

Please please do the battle of attu Island Alaska my great grandfather was there with the 7th infantry division

[@legohistorysam]

Hey history guy. There is two destroyers named after one Civil War hero with the same name. The USS Laffey the ship that would not die. She is a beautiful warship and her history shall be told. She still around in Charleston South Carolina. The good Old warship.

[@MarshOakDojoTimPruitt]

thanks

[@rexmyers991]

I never knew the convoy system was initial resisted by the cargo Captains. Hindsight make resistance seem that of a petulant child.

[@kennethkellogg6556]

Winston Churchill is famous for his history of WW2, but he also wrote a valuable multi-volume history of WWI titled "The World Crisis". (and he had insight from being First Lord of the Admiralty and then Minister of Munitions.) He included a good analysis of the arguments for and against the convoy system.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

It all comes down to the fact that people don't like other people telling them what to do - especially Sea Captains. The thing with a convoy - is that because of the vastness of the Oceans, a convoy of ships wasn't any easier to find than a single ship - and the single ships were more scattered about - giving the subs better chances of finding them. You see the same mentality during the Covid Crisis - with people refusing to wear masks or even get vaccinated. They're living in denial that anything bad is going to happen to _them_ . "Oh ... it's other ships that get sunk by submarines ... my ship is safe because I'm an experienced Sea Captain and know what I'm doing" "Oh - I won't get covid. None of my friends have covid. No one I know has covid - so I won't get it" "Vaccines? You mean you want me to get _a shot?_ I don't want to get a shot." The real problem with Convoy's was - as said - the delay it created in forming up the Convoy and - at the destination - you had all these ships show up at once to be unloaded so they had to wait their turn. That was a real factor in the throughput of the cargoes they were carrying - but - it was better than getting all those ships sunk. .

[@navyreviewer]

It was penny wise and pound stupid. Gathering ships to convoy and then operating at convoy speed costs more. Of course that means little if the ship is sunk. Unless its insured. wink.

[@scottabc72]

Good follow up to the Hoboken Fire video

[@skyhawksailor8736]

Thank you for doing such wonderful videos about WWI and WWII. As a suggestion about WWI, how about doing a video about my Home-State Medal of Honor recipient Sargent Alvin York.

[@geordiedog1749]

Another great video. Well done.