TF2 & The Beauty Of Details

[@LucidMakesVideos]

What did you all think? Am I onto something, or am I crazy? Join The Discord: discord.gg/KZ7RPShsuY

[@HHHjb_]

You put my feelings into words as to why tf2 is the only fps I liked

[@ACEM1A1]

You're onto something crazy that's for sure

[@unusuariorandom9115]

In my personal opinion there a few decent maps in overwatch Circuit royal, havana, colosseo as a example sadly most of the other ow2 maps are nonsense Meanwhile in tf2 theres a lot of good maps perfectly designed Snowycoast, phoenix, powerhouse, doublecross

[@potatocraft952]

Nah the hate against embargo was pretty bad

[@TheADHDGamer420]

no your insane actually they should lock you up in a mental asylum for how deranged you are (jk)

[@the_Red_Star]

4:17 There's a crucial correction to be made here: the places BLU and RED are fighting over were never meant to _be_ useless, just to _look_ that way to outside observers. Every release map has some highly valuable or dangerous tech hidden beneath the seemingly ordinary rural or industrial exterior. That's what we're actually fighting to control, the barns and gravel pits and decrepit factories are all just a front for a spy war. Gravelpit's last point has a doomsday laser device perched on top of its tower. The points that we're required to capture beforehand are a radio tower and a set of satellite dishes and radars: it's the targeting system. Each base in Granary conceals a salvo of huge missiles underneath a retractable ceiling, overseen by a control room with a map of the world that has several points highlighted. It's not a deserted granary, it's a nuclear launch site. Stuff like the 2fort wooden cows aren't there as a joke, they're there to fool distant passersby into thinking the RED fort is just some barn, while in reality it's housing a massive secret base with a collection of computers, audio/film reels, maps and intelligence underneath it. All locked behind a great steel vault door with a comms system beside it. Why would that be there if this really was some old barn? Of course maybe the mercs (and the players themselves) were meant to be clueless pawns who were never told what they were really fighting over, but the idea that TF2 was just two idiots fighting over gravel was a retcon.

[@PHR16384]

Not necessarily a retcon. To me, it suggests that Redmond and Blutarch pursued ever-more extreme and insane means to steal and defend their precious gravel -- sometimes quite literally the nuclear option. And as Skymin pointed out, their gravel might not be so worthless after all: In the 60s, the US was building the interstate highway system, requiring an assload of concrete and asphalt. And whaddayaknow, gravel is an ingredient for both. I choose to believe they pissed away trillions on spytech and weapons to defend mere billions-worth of gravel, though XD

[@LucidMakesVideos]

I should've clarified this better in the video. What I mean is that the *appearance* of the maps offers lower stakes. The reality of the stakes may be different, but the visual design of the map is what "tricks" players into viewing the game more casually. I agree I should have made this clearer in the video though, as the "useless gravel pit" line has confused a few people.

[@fujiwaranonekobiodrando1257]

That's peak World Building holy shit

[@funnymannotfunny]

@@LucidMakesVideosit is true though, despite the aforementioned powerful devices (which is what the administrator has been hinted to really want), the mann brothers are fighting for the sake of fighting, even tricking themselves into thinking the gravel is the valuable thing. The administrator confirms this in one of the comics (I forgot which) where she says something along the lines of “you have spent so long fighting over gravel that you completely overlooked the real value of this land”

[@BenevolentBratwurst]

@@funnymannotfunny I thought that was Gray Mann at the Alamo talking about Mann Co, not the Administrator. Is there another instance I'm not thinking of?

[@Mehetti]

I think one of my favorite design aspects to classic tf2 maps is how as the game progress and Red gets pushed back their spawn rooms become more and more properly built, as opposed to forward spawns that seemed put together last minute

[@johngddr5288]

I always liked that detail too about Red architecture.

[@jacquesnouvel6436]

Oooooooh, I didn't realise that, thanks !

[@Supershadow301]

Oh yeah, it's a very neat touch! Things like Dustbowl's last point being a rocket silo, contrasting with the previous last points being a decrepit shack and over a quick metal platform.

[@nickspencerfishingrodd2383]

never realized that tbh

[@fumothfan9]

In 5CP it is like that depending on who is winning and losing

[@itsKyee1]

Lucid caught trying to backstab razorback sniper, asked to leave the Gravel War

[@DeezBaeNaeNae]

caught lackin

[@fenn_fren]

1:29 "Why on earth is there a massive hole in the middle of the map?" communal toilet

[@Ledplous]

Shout-out to the mouse cursor at 5:13, we appreciate his presence

[@alex.g7317]

Bros carrying this channel

[@Z4ch_Skai_637]

Did not see that 😂

[@SnackPatrol]

Mouse cursor can def. hang. That one underappreciated homie who don't say much but always reliable

[@titicaca.]

im watching on my tv and was confused for a sec

[@manboy4720]

mouse cursor is a homie.

[@cactuz4813]

I remember in the early days of tf2 I would set up my sentry, tele, dispenser etc in the intel room of 2fort and just...play like a sleepy contract security guard. I'd be on another screen, check in periodically, maybe do a sweep every few minutes. Being in that intel room as the sole engineer on the team was so immersive. The character was designed to do that, the environment reflected it, and it felt somehow cool and important just to sit there and wait for spies.

[@sentientlvl.5mortar886]

Absolutely going to do that today

[@ZPu95]

TF2 the only game where people will purposely log in and do silly stuff all day and nothing else. Shout out to all lobotomy engineers out there.

[@samirwit3263]

Kind of like a tower defense game

[@engihere5434]

It also really helps when you have everything built, the humm of the teleporter, the compressor like sounds coming from the dispenser as it slowly builds more metal every few seconds, and the smooth but noticable mechanical sounds of the sentry turning as it makes a beep everytime it clears an area, love your comment!

[@cactuz4813]

@@engihere5434 It's clearly a shared experience! Nice addition!

[@DoutorSeuMadruga]

I like the context of Embargo, it makes it so the mercenaries are not just tied to the gravel wars and are...well, mercenaries that sometimes work for other people with other objectives. Yeah that conflicts with RED and BLU lore and tf2 lore as a whole but it still gives the 1960's spy vibe, and i am all for it.

[@Nehfarius]

Considering that RED and BLU are said to own the majority of the world's companies, it may not be as conflicting as you might think.

[@icyan393]

Agreed!! It's such an awesome vibe & I want to see some future maps with a similar direction. TF2 has a lot of inspiration from 60s-70s spy movies iirc and I wish more maps tapped into that vibe

[@simplysmiley4670]

Doubt the people who dislike the map do so because of the lore conflicts but because of the aesthetics and those aesthetics conflicting with what players got used to gameplay-wise. Aesthetics-wise it's pretty much an Overwatch map, but in TF2. Overly saturated with colours, which also, coincidentally, do mess up with the gameplay. It's not that hard to see a red or blu merc standing next to a brown or grey wall, but it does get harder to see those same mercs when the wall behind them is the same colour as their team colour. Makes sniper especially a pain in the ass as a sniper can blend in with the team coloured walls or blend in with the pretty details. Personally map has a fun layout, mostly, aside from the few ludicrous sniper sightlines. But the aesthetics do mess with the gameplay.

[@DoutorSeuMadruga]

@@simplysmiley4670 I can fully understand that. The way the map look don't really bother me that much cause the map is settled in a beach area, so vibrant colors are expected to be in the environment, but i agree that making the colors way to saturated and using too much red and blue on the walls can mess up with the gameplay a lot, specially in a payload map that tends to make players stand really next to each other, cluttering the visuals even more.

[@Zywbo]

Concordo bem com você, doutor sr madruga, a vibe q esses mapas trazem e realmente muito boa.

[@NarantsatsraltOrgil-y2o]

4:53 Lucid caught backstabbing a sniper with razorback.

[@butlazgazempropan-butan11k87]

Psychological warfare

[@jaumesillozzo]

To me that's pure flex.

[@starfire9552]

"A game that feels like home" 12:25 absolutely so true, this game has been my safe resort after rought times in life for so long

[@deadrisinfan29]

I’d like to Argue that Embargo is more Similar to Comics vibe than the games aesthetic, now wether that is a good or bad thing boils down to preference, I like to See Embargo as something akin to a side story from the TF2 comics something the Mercs would get involved in cause of stupid reasons

[@alex.g7317]

I like this idea.

[@pixellord2370]

I kind of interpreted as the petty squabble that overextends itself into a normal town. It's a lot more similar to the comics as you said.

[@deadrisinfan29]

@@pixellord2370 the way I see it, the Mercs help out both sides cause wanted to do a get rich quick scheme that went too far

[@AliceLoverdrive]

Embargo feels like a sick heist, and it's great.

[@coleperrin1948]

I like this thought. Tf2 can easily incorporate it into Tf2's lore or expand on it. The only issue is getting more dev attention. Feels like we got cutoff after 2016.

[@longjimthealmighty]

The nice thing about tf2 objectives, is that the setting makes them make sense. Trying to blow up the opposing teams base or capture intel about them makes perfect sense. Even capture points makes sense, because you are playing as a hired mercenary in a petty feud, and you don’t care what you need to do, as long as you get payed for it

[@mikadosannoji553]

and the bomb being replaced with a paint bomb to make the enemy's money worthless

[@longjimthealmighty]

@@mikadosannoji553 We do not speak of embargo

[@Supershadow301]

Also, bigger health and ammo packs tend to be stashed away in better built offices or staff rooms, while smaller packs are scattered around. Best exemple I can think of is Steel: small packs can be found around the main paths, but there are medium packs put up on separate stands inside the base around point C, and the main office overseeing the last point features both large health and ammo packs.

[@zetaroko5398]

The subtle buildup when talking about the Ilios hole to then conclude with the same idea applied to TF2 made me genuinely go "ooooh, OOOOOH" as I realized what you were doing. Wonderful writing right there

[@the_gordo_L]

I still get this feeling a lot. I still go through some maps and notice new things about them, and i always end up full of joy. My childhood favourite map, sd_doomsday, recently surprised me with a detail I hadn't noticed. If you stand in the water under the australium, you can look through the boards outside the map to see a whole river that runs into the horizon with building surrounding it. Not to mention that the map itself is meant to be a coverup for a nuclear test launch, where they're offering the "first monkey to be sent to space," that ends in "tragedy" when the rocket "accidentally crashes into one of the teams' bases." It's details like this that make me love the game.

[@absoultethings4213]

Somewhat unrelated but it took me way way too long to realize Carnival of Carnage is evil Doomsday

[@Technicals]

Really solid point on how world building is hardly the focus in modern shooters

[@NotASealZebra]

Great video Lucid. I wanna add on to how many layers the artstyle itself has when it comes to maps and world building. Most if not all of the original TF2 maps are mainly inspired by 1890s-1940s Industrial/Agricultural environments which have been abandoned years ago and inhabited by RED and BLU. The only time you see anything in the maps inspired by 1960s are the spawnrooms, bases or final capture points. Examples of this being the intel room in 2fort, the final point of dustbowl stage 3, granary's initial spawn rooms, Well's intel rooms, etc. This is why things like posters, calendars, cars, tools, etc. are all from the 1930s/1940s era, not 1960 (except for the trains). For the mercs, these locations they fight in are already old and falling apart.

[@squmulonimbus]

The contrast between 1920s art and rural architecture, and the 1960s Cold War era "mission control" rooms, also serves theming and gameplay. Players know when they're approaching the enemy objective on maps like 2Fort and Sunshine, and can easily identify different parts of the map just from the predominant background colors. And the theming of fighting a secret battle over nothing important comes through without any story mode needed, plus it feeds into the cartoonish tone of the game. The idea that the two teams are trapped in an eternal stalemate also (at least somewhat) rationalizes the mirrored maps and mercs appearing on both sides. Not to rag on Overwatch too much, but it's not rationalized at all what you're fighting over, why you're fighting for it, or why supposed ally characters can appear on opposite teams and kill each other without remorse. When it's thought through well, this sort of thing really helps people get invested in a game and helps it remain memorable.

[@aquelehirodbd]

Since the mercenary conflict has been around since de 1800's, its not a surprise the buildings are falling apart whitout maintainance, which is a thing none of the mercs really cares about.

[@M644theawesome]

Now after watching this, I kind of want a video series of someone talking about the lore and details of TF2 maps, be it old maps or more newer ones, it just all sounds very interesting Also there's something funny with the calming Animal Crossing music with all the gun fire and screams of a 2Fort match

[@raflcoopter]

I've talked with friends about it and while pl_embargo does many cool things with v-script, its focus on presentation and personality really made it feel less like a tf2 map and more like one of those slow story rides you'd take your sibling on at disneyworld lol.

[@ashnambers]

Honestly that is 100% the vibe I got when I played it and I kind of liked that, in a weird way? Makes it feel more silly then serious

[@hawkticus_history_corner]

I like Embargo as a change of pace for TF2, but I want it to stay that way. Its nice to change stuff up every now and again, but I like TF2s consistency.

[@comfortzone2282]

thats what i was gonna say! TF2 maps are becoming more and more theme park rides.I dont even want to discredit the people that worked on embargo for this, they did a good job and that and its really a cute map fwiw.

[@DaisiesTC]

It is by far the best map out of the summer update imo. Pretty well balanced and very nice design, though it does feel a little bit Overwatch-y. It's least way better than Odyssey which fails both in terms of its world design and balance (which is unusual coming from the map creator who has only released bangers up to this point). Second point on Odyssey is one of the worst designed sections of any payload map outside of truly bottom of the barrel stuff like Wutville. I do also really like Megaton but I wouldn't really call it well designed lol. It's kind of a Sniper playground, and it's extremely easy for a good Demoman player to spawn camp the entire enemy team. And while Embargo thematically doesn't really fit into TF2 (although it works if maybe Redmond and Blutarch outsourced their mercenaries to the 2 opposing parties of that map), it does have pretty good world design, and some nice Easter eggs that do fit into TF2. The map objective itself is also pretty cool, along with the custom announcers for both RED and BLU.

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

@@hawkticus_history_corner ...but Embargo is not a change of pace. It's the direction the game's been headed in for years, because Valve just adds any community map with high votes.

[@Sirebellum1337]

It's hard to believe you got through this whole video about the amazing worldbuilding through detail in TF2's maps without mentioning mvm_decoy

[@morgboat744]

i was thinking that too, i remember wandering around while waiting for teammates to ready up and slowly realizing the whole place was built by Soldier for Mann Co. he even wanted to do it so badly he offered to pay THEM

[@kingdingaling3376]

@@morgboat744 I like the funny room where you can see all of the failed signs he painted, with the Mann co letter

[@fumothfan9]

​@@morgboat744wait SOLDIER BUILT IT?!? It all makes sense now 😂

[@TheTdw2000]

​@@fumothfan9Well he probably didn't build the whole thing but he definitely made all the signs to disguise an otherwise tactically useless farm in the middle of nowhere as a Mann Co. facility.

[@oranjoe69]

0:03 where is this sound effect from?

[@ceorrr]

jet set radio

[@konstantinivanov1717]

​@@ceorrr a.k.a. the funkiest game ever

[@zetwave]

Jet set radio tag sound I think

[@Creakstar8]

I never thought someone could sound so poetic when describing a game like TF2, but you always surprise me (and make the game sound intriguing lol)

[@spooderman4008]

1:28 It's a well. The map is *called* "Ilios Well". The people get their water from the well. The people dug the hole for the water at the bottom of the hole.

[@LucidMakesVideos]

1. Wells don't look like that. 2. No bucket. 3. Wouldn't kill most of the characters in OW if they fell down it.

[@spooderman4008]

@@LucidMakesVideos To quote *you,* "The easiest way for a developer to design a map is to prioritize the gameplay and to cast elements like the setting and world-building aside to make that gameplay better." This is a case of just that. The hole is very clearly *meant* to be a well. Most traditional wells don't actually have the roof with the bucket on a rope, they're frequently just a hole in the ground that a villager comes by with their own bucket and rope to throw into it for water. On the note of, "wouldn't kill most of the characters in OW if they fell down it," Horizon Lunar Colony literally has a section of the map that lets you go into a zero atmosphere environment and I don't think Junkrat (for example) could survive that, yet he does. Thank you for the fast response, I didn't mean any disrespect as I was simply clarifying that it was a well. :)

[@AT-og6rk]

thats what im sayin man

[@polishworm9444]

​@@LucidMakesVideos I like to think that the well is usually more filled with water and only during the battles the water is drained

[@manynames9559]

To add, I also figured it was a reference to the movie 300 since both are incredibly similar and set in a greek setting. And for those who don't know, the hole in the comic and movie was supposed to be a well.

[@bluebird6039]

I think this video misunderstands what the design of maps like gold rush or dustbowl are trying to convey. As another commenter mentioned, the structures don’t appear to be falling apart and temporary because the gravel wars are largely irrelevant and the structures were hastily put together for a war that doesn’t matter, they’re structures that predate the war by decades and look terrible because they haven’t been maintained for years. On top of that, a number of TF2s original maps contain “important looking” structures that completely go against your point of the maps looking derelict to convey the casual vibe of the game and low-stakes nature of the gravel war, like the massive hydroelectric dam in Hydro or clearly permanent and operational distilleries in Well, which even have functional freight trains passing through. I love the details in TF2s maps but I don’t think the message you believe was baked into the maps was actually intended to be read that way.

[@Ayham4002]

I feel like this video is flawed in conveying its message. While I agree with it, the explanations he gives aren't exactly the best. He compares Dustbowl to Embargo which is extremely unfair considering Dustbowl in itself is a traditional map that takes place in the gravel wars while Embargo has its own story and is supposed to break the traditional feel of the typical TF2 maps. Even Embargo itself has a lot of overlooked details that he neglects in the video. In the video, he talks about the importance of details and shows a 2fort area in which a computer screen shows a worldwide map with points, yet he talks about Embargo and Egypt like they're alien to TF2. The details there imply that TF2 wasn't always about this "Gravel War in Arizona" that the comics have always implied about. My point is that Lucid didn't make good arguments about a message that I personally agree with and ironically overlooked some details himself.

[@bluebird6039]

@@Ayham4002 I think the message is fundamentally broken regardless of how he explained it because there are counter examples from the exact same time as his examples. The importance of details is pretty uncontroversial but the central conceit of the video is how the implications of details in later maps contradict the implications of details in earlier valve-made maps when there are other early maps which wreck the argument all together. There are real stylistic differences between the older valve maps and new community maps like color palette and the gradual shift away from the southwestern United States but the way he ties the differences to the worldbuilding being damaged just doesn’t work for me.

[@Ayham4002]

@@bluebird6039 Yeah I agree

[@HimslGames]

Embargo doesn't have higher stakes just cause it is in a city, yes the city was destroyed in the powerstruggle of the two parties, but that doesn't change the fate of the city much. Whoever wins the battle still only changes how the powerbalance between the two factions has advanced. Just cause the factions have done more damage to the world doesn't mean that their struggle has become more meaningful.

[@bunsolami]

I think your final point is best exemplified by my recent experiences in tf2 pubs. Every time someone is taking the game too seriously and yelling at the rest of the team, they just get verbally dunked on by the rest of us. It’s a beautiful thing to lose and still be happy.

[@Nik1_]

There is no bad in losing. It makes you revaluate the match and see what mistakes you made, so you can get better. Losing is probably the best method to learn. So don't worry if you lose, worry if you didn't had any fun.

[@a_dogg5277]

>Pubs wait like the actual community dedicated servers? it's been years since meet your match since i've seen someone mention pubs, nice to know they are still around cuz new tf2 players forgot they exists, like they cried about the bot crisis, but in community servers the issue was never a real thing, because of human moderations and other admin tools that let people to ip ban and other stuff, besides you can have a real community between pubs.

[@squmulonimbus]

Because the game was made to be fun first and a competitive game second, which has helped its longevity massively. Drop in / drop out multiplayer with 12 players on a side is way less stressful than ranked matchmaking (or even unranked matchmaking) with 5 players on a side. Obviously it hasn't had major success as an esport, but maybe that's a worthwhile tradeoff for a game with an insanely strong community 17 years after release.

[@Blamowizard]

"You should be able to lose and srill be happy" omg this should be printed as a new golden rule of multiplayer game design, you're genius

[@MutheiM_Marz]

TF2 was created as a class based fps casual game. And it’s also gave valve a headache when they tried to make a competitive out of it. A good competitive must have little variable, everything must be predictable….. TF2 have non of that, too much weapon choice and subclass and exploit. For example, CSS have movable props like barrels, table etc. which is a variable and they have to remove it in CSGO because it’s interfering with competitive.

[@P0P218]

i like how some arena shooters like unreal tournament present themselves because of the context of "fighting for fightings sake, to the death, and for entertainment, or because the overlords demand it" it makes sense that arenas often do not resemble a normal or natural place. arbitrary map design is just accepted as part of the arena or something

[@claybrd]

my favorite detail of tf2 is that you can tell what level a sentry is just by how many beeps it makes when it turns, sure it seems obvious now but idk how i missed it, i love when you can just stop, notice something, and appreciate the level of effort that went into something. and it makes sense in gameplay and in canon.

[@_-Huligan-_]

As a mapper, I had to do a double take at 5:30 because of the ceiling texture. It is the same bright neon orange as the "Trigger" material, a texture you're never meant to see rendered in-game, a texture that is intentionally overly bright and colorful to help you differentiate it from other tool textures and the rest of the map while you're working on it. The fact it is so obnoxiously eye-grabbing (and for a ceiling texture especially) that I mistook it for an unassigned trigger brush is just a microcosm of Embargo's failings.

[@MysteryPancake]

it's also worth noting TF2's art style uses saturation as a visual tool. The characters are more saturated than everything else to stand out against the background. This is why most maps look desaturated. There's a video by shounic about TF2's art style that goes into this more

[@BEE-ew1nb]

The reason why I love TF2 is that while other shooters like overwatch feel similar to each other, TF2 always felt... special somehow, like it was unique among the FPS genre

[@HHHjb_]

Now it makes sense why I don't like other fps games they focus too much on the gameplay and winning(especially this my loss rate on tf2 matches is over 70% of my matches but Ive played for thousands of hours just enjoying myself) for my liking

[@Appletank8]

to this day it still feels shocking that it seems only TF2 purposely refused to have anyone use a generalist automatic rifle weapon, outside games that use settings that don't have automatic guns at all.

[@yakovmarker4564]

I would like to add that it's easier to create a believable industrial environment than a believable urban environment in TF2. Because not everyone is a factory worker in 1960s, but most of us live in cities/towns. If you see a crude shack with connected pipes to it, you'll look at it, shrug and think that it's a grain silo. If you see a weird structure in a city environment, it will immediately bring your attention to itself because it doesn't look right, you know it doesn't. TF2's gameplay mechanics that are impossible in real life such as rocket jumps, damage surfing and all that, require specific level design decisions, and industrial environments work flawlessly for that. Why is that ledge there? Idk, it's a factory, it seems fitting and I can jump on it lmao! That's why koth_king is actually goated. It manages to do something very hard which is to make a believable urban environment in TF2 that also works as a gameplay space. It's gameplay flow, coloring, lighting and composition of elements are so well done that when you play it you don't really think about hows and whys. It's only in a vacuum with no players if you scrutinize the map enough, you start seeing things that make no sense.

[@vincentdupont3521]

Wtf you never rocket jumped in real life ?! how are you traveling then ???

[@yakovmarker4564]

@@vincentdupont3521 I don't leave my basement

[@Supershadow301]

Imo koth_King also works because it's a city by night: unless there's some event to draw a crowd, residential city streets tend to be empty by night. Which is why the usual emptiness doesn't look as weird: while the mercs are out, everyone else is just relaxing inside after a day's work.

[@kingdingaling3376]

Okay but why are we in Hong Kong, where did our gravel go

[@Supershadow301]

@@kingdingaling3376 The underground maps in 2fort and other places imply the RED-BLU conflict is worlwide. Even if it's all a front, they're probably just a diversion by the administrator to grab yet another australium patch.

[@shrgn]

Sometimes I load up an empty TF2 map and just discover it for hours. I have tried to do the same for Overwatch and I didn't even last 5 minutes before getting bored. This video has opened my eyes on why what is

[@TheFish711]

An important point for this, is that there’s a difference between red and blu structures. Red is a demolition company while blue is a construction company. That’s why Blu structures seem better built and higher quality.

[@taktika4764]

One other thing that broke my immersion with overwatch is a change they made semi-recently The change for Roadhog's ultimate, Whole Hog. When activating it, Roadhog would quickly slap a module onto his gun which included a grinder full of metal and a spinny handle that would power the grinder. Then Roadhog starts spinning it, while his gun would spew the metals and scraps with incredible fire rates and spread for 6 seconds. The thing about that was that you couldn't actually stop it yourself, it made you feel powerful, it had the most recoil in the game and it couldn't be stopped. This also provided cool counterplay options because stun effects would cancel the ultimate early. But then they decided to change it so now you can stop shooting, use your abilities and it is no longer interruptable by stuns. Why? I don't know. You don't spin the handle anymore but the metal in the grinder is still being grinded even if you don't shoot. Also when you use your hook while Whole Hog is active, you will shoot from one hand for some time, because they didn't bother ti make new hook animations for Whole Hog, so they just used the normal hook animations (which were made with the gun being one handed in mind). Oh and also when you shoot with one hand, the spinny handle spins even though it's literally impossible

[@mothichorror446]

I'm fairly certain that's a symptom of Overwatch devs taking the teamwork focus out of the game. Roadhog is powerful during his ult but can't heal or do any of his other actions, which would theoretically be the chance for his team to cover his bases - but the change in approach means that most of the time every character is doing their own thing.

[@taktika4764]

@@mothichorror446 yeah i get why they made that change in theory but with the reduction of cc in the game i don't think it was needed

[@Yes-bn6yy]

Embargo takes place in Cuba where many buildings are different colors

[@goshking4331]

The hole on Illios is a well. The pregame hero select lobby tells you specifically which KOTH section you're on. That specific Illios map is called Illios: Well.

[@zoomspilo6798]

I never realized that, that's neat. I have absolutely no idea what well is that big and completely open but at least they did kinda explain it

[@haydenmcbride8933]

@@zoomspilo6798 its probably that big as a reference to the well from 300 from the this is sparta scene (because that massive hole was a well apparently)

[@xsloshua9188]

11:15 Personally, as a huge fan of both TF2, and CS:GO, I appreciate the level of detail that goes into some of the CS maps. Office comes to mind right away. The danger zone maps as well. Sure its not as common as in TF2, but many Cs maps feel like real lived in places. Train and overpass also come to mind.

[@MyNameIsZelo]

Humoured by the “having fun” being secondary when talking about Overwatch and Valorant.

[@kayden-jacobarietis790]

honestly i think this is why i like, megaton so much, you fight a for a point that sits beneath a nuke, that kills literally everyone at the end anyway its totally "useless" but damn, is it just about killing and having fun,

[@elpozolero777]

I feel like this is a weird comparison, but I think one of the best games to do this gameplay/storytelling/visual design combination is Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze, the way the level design is explained through the visual design as well as the visual design explains the terrain you are traveling without doing things like platforms that fly for no reason, giant blocks place there out of nowhere, going from a cave level to a sky level back to back without explanation. It's not the same thing, but I wanted to point it out as well, also, good video

[@Supershadow301]

I think one important part of TF2 is how the more nonsensical walls/tunnels are either natural or shoddily put together instead of being clearly planned buildings. It makes the map feel a bit more lively and/or more grounded. Case in point: -The BLU sniper sightline in Mercenary Park's last point, in the window. It's a bloody impact left by *someone's* fist, instead of being a medieval castle-style archer slit or some similar hole. -Dustbowl's alternate paths are old mining tunnels, with extra boarded up entrances. From a worldbuilding standpoint, it's probably because they're at risk of collapsing. -The many, many times randoms planks or wire fences serve as cover against snipers, such as in swiftwater's starting area. If they were regular stone/concrete walls, it'd make no sense. But here, they've clearly been built last minute right before the match starts. -Egypt has a few buildings with collapsed ceilings. From a gameplay standpoint, it's so you can drop down there easily. From a lore standpoint, the ruins crumbled over time. -Badwater's iconic starting area. All the hoodoos (tall rock formations) make for an interesting fighting area, with safe zones and advantageous positions sometimes complemented by quick metal scaffoldings. The only "planned" part is the payload's tunnel under the first mound, which make sense as the terrain might've been to rough. It also contrasts nicely with the haphazard rocks above it. -In several spawnrooms of Egypt, you can see a parked medic van that serves as a resupply area. It's probably how the mercs got here, so far away from the usual badlands.

[@Underqualified_Gunman]

one thing i want to note is the reason most of those building in dustbowl stage 1 look so ramshackle is that valve builds thier maps with facade mindset that slowly fades away to reveal the true purpose behind it all. in dustbowl there's a rocket launch, gravel pit some sort of sci laser tech satellite dish thingy, 2fort has it's spytech base hidden from public view, and so on.

[@PelemusMcSoy]

You touched on the muted colors of older maps. What that does is allow the players and important items to pop, to stand out. You never have to ask yourself, "Hmm...is that someone moving up there...?" and instead say, "Oh crap, someone's moving up there!" I haven't played the new map, but I could easily see things getting visually lost in the colorful backgrounds.

[@yesnt8314]

Running around on empty overwatch maps makes me feel sad at all the details they put into it just for the clusterfuck of particle effects in a match to mask it all

[@retrohero5475]

Absolutely wild choice to use the exact same footage of embargo where you try to backstab someone with the razorback like 3 times in a row.

[@steelixTf2]

12:12 that was real

[@thecoolestrock445]

all i know is that the newer tf2 maps just seem like ow2 maps with their jank map design and vibrance

[@smactus]

One thing to note about Embargo is that it very literally has higher stakes than the gravel war maps, since the theme of the Tropic Crisis maps was fighting over Brazillium instead of worthless plots of land. (The map is still a bit to saturated though.)

[@JPCollector]

This kind of felt like it was argued in bad faith

[@mikeuniturtle3722]

i thought the hole mentioned at 1:56 was just suppose to be a reference to the movie 300. since the map is suppose to be set in Greece.

[@staticsphere_]

11:57 usually this is true, until... **"MISSION ENDS IN SIXTY SECONDS"**

[@aquelehirodbd]

The pub push is real

[@bradleykurtz2605]

24 Mercenaries? There is 9 on each team. If you count Pauling, that makes 19, unless there is a Pauling for each team too. Saxton Hale maybe? The Administrator?

[@morgboat744]

12v12 matches but yeah i was thinking that too lol

[@brionbark]

I never really thought about this, but it was a really well put together video, thanks!

[@histhoryk2648]

-What is that? -It's a hole -Yes, I can see that, what is it doing there? -I woke up this morning and there was a hole -What were you doing about it? -I've put a rug over it and it fell into hole -Should we call police or something? -Oh- yeah I've called the police -Where are they? -In the hole -Where is you girlfriend? Tom where's your girlfriend? -She's at work... in the hole... -God, how deep even is this thing? -That was my favorite mug, now is in a hole -Tom, do you know what is this? For all we know it can be interdimensional wormhole or gateway to hell... Tom? Tom? TOM!!! -Hey, what's up? I've got a snack -Tom would please take it seriously? -*screaming and gunshots* -WHAT WAS THAT? -Hole person -Where did they come from?! -... -Right, the hole! Yeah! Dude why are you so calm about this? -I'm more worried about space octopus -What space octopus? -That one

[@FrogInShorts]

Alright mr smarty pants, riddle me this. Why does red team, the team that DOES NOT want blu blowing their base up have a track that leads straight to a massive chute that only seems to have the function of blowing them up!? I've just always wondered why red doesn't just like, remove the tracks?

[@Rammkommando]

no game if they did

[@TheTdw2000]

Standard bomb-hole self-destruct mechanism, corporate policy for TF Industries.

[@AleX-me8on]

2:50 so satisfying drop

[@Cast-Carnival]

there's literally a map dedicated to being a playhouse for mercs who just want to beat down on each other, well, it originally was for Yetis, but sadly they mysteriously and spontaneously combusted under the supervision of Saxton Hale.

[@Caterman_the_pomson_enjoyer]

When I heard the more gun theme kick in I felt goosebumps all over my body

[@noahlovato7331]

I honestly wouldn’t be too surprised if somehow the gravel wars grew to a nearly full fledged war across multiple countries. It would be hard to justify but I feel like it would still be pretty in character for tf2

[@mothichorror446]

Considering the original "setup" was that RED and BLU controlled the Entire World through shell companies, it isn't that far-fetched

[@ryanalq985]

Lovely vid, Lucid! The editing is top-notch. I've actually gotten back into TF from encountering an earlier vid of yours, and it's been a blast. I did notice one small issue with the "run-down buildings reinforce a low-stakes conflict" theory. The way I see it, a the vast majority of these buildings are fronts for something of *actual* value within. Dustbowl's last is *LITERALLY* a rocket! Badwater and Upward are both fuel depots - as seen by the barrels flying out of the exploding last points. Most classic TF2 maps have this sort of gimmick about them - as the map progresses, the facilities grow more "important", more spy-tech styled, and on the whole it gives each team more implicit encouragement to keep fighting; The stakes ramp up as the match progresses - not just in the match timer and announcer's voicelines, but in map design as well. I agree with the overall point of the video, but IMO Embargo had some good ideas - namely, the idea that both RED and BLU teams got hired by someone other than the mann brothers/whoever actually pays them in the lore; In the two distinct announcers...That sorta end up insanely annoying, lacking any of the charm of the original administrator. Overall, that map is a mishmash of good and bad ideas, and it reeks of feature-creep that ended up dragging down the whole experience. One of the other maps, Megaton, is especially egregious; You can see they were trying to make their own take on the iconic Nuketown, where the map gets destroyed after the round ends - but it not only makes practically no diegetic sense, it also noticeably affects the map's performance. I noticed a lot of people complaining about low frames on Megaton, and I bet there's something about that bomb that makes it incredibly unoptimised... All in all, I'd *love* to see more content like this; TF's maps have so many secrets - intended, and otherwise - and little things that just seamlessly blend in with the gameplay and every other aspect of its presentation, that this deserves further discussion. G̶o̶ g̶e̶t̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶ b̶a̶g̶ b̶u̶d̶d̶y̶!̶

[@aquamarinerose5405]

I see Overwatch's Ilios hole and I can't help but think "that's just the 300 hole"

[@maxisthemercenary6901]

If you wanna talk about needless details, just look at the MvM maps! The Coal Town spawn rooms have little plaques and stuff that you'd see in a museum with actual lore on them. There's a little safe in the floor of the center building. Why? Who knows! Because Mann Co.? Maybe! Decoy is full of signs Soldier made himself, including a custom bomb hatch, white paint over preexisting signs, and even scrapped signs and buckets of white paint in side rooms that the robots use to flank. The dev team could have easily just put up a big Mann Co. sign, but they went the extra mile.

[@Supershadow301]

Hell, Mercenary Park's first BLU Spawn has a yeti animatronic with a button you can shoot to make it roar. It's completely useless, you won't mind it when the match starts and won't even get to see it again after capping point A, but it's here.

[@TheTdw2000]

Coal Town is a former mining ghost town turned into a museum owned by Mann Co. It's been a while since I've played on it but I'm pretty sure the vault is supposed to be in the old Bank.

[@pepsiaddictgaming]

I love wandering around taking in TF2 maps. Such as tires at Badwater, or the non accessible rooms in 2Forts basement.

[@goopi]

Why the fuck are we talking about the premise 6 minutes into a 12 minute video and why was it name dropped twice lmaoooo. Why are we acting like a level designer putting down a building and styling it like an office is peak level deisgn? How the FUCK is the video 12 minutes long when the only details you talk about are a building, the pipes in 2fort and the fact that the objective is not called a flag???? wtf is happening????

[@MrGoofiusIII]

It’s in the title The video is about details You’ve missed the point by miles

[@Finzombie]

The Ilios hole just feels like a 300 reference to me

[@wrst3134]

Bro, this video save me of a mental breakdown, thanks

[@rubie_gubie]

honestly im kinda of glad that not all the maps fall under the same "theme" as it would get boring and degrade the art style over time. itd get less special if they tried the same thing over and over again embargo is a little cluttered for me but i like all the little details that went into it, it still feels grounded in tf2s world through new maps by valve that take place in different places in the world

[@MBP1918]

The maps of Team Fortress 2 have a feeling and a sense of being lived in

[@HopeToast]

The hole in the Overwatch map is literally just a well.

[@ginichimaru9013]

I think it's also communities fault, in those games when you are trying to have fun, they will yell at you, demand to switch your character and even uninstall the game. I'm not playing to impress someone or be the best player you have ever met, I'm just playing to have fun, to relax after a long stupid shift at work. TF2 is only game I've really felt that relaxation, even in it's chaotic nature, I found a peace of mind. Great video btw.

[@gachigasm3210]

11:40 real. TF2 really is the only multiplayer game where no matter the outcome or teammates I just cannot get mad.

[@opocaj4973]

1:01 how did you find that picture? I live literally 10 minutes from that place

[@JumpingJupiiTF2]

now I know why I prefer older maps than the newer community maps

[@0Blueaura]

imo if they made embargo into a mock-up city made for a movie scene it would tie more into the comedic feel of tf2

[@SamMidence]

The map on Illios is called Well. The hole is a WELL. Also, I’d like to add that the spawn rooms and payload carts in OW add a lot to the storytelling of each mission.

[@jbn187]

That ending really resonates with me. TF2 really is the only multiplayer fps ive played that is actually fun. Sure the dopamine hits from tac fps are great but TF2 actually consistently makes me laugh while playing, its just so chill and goofy in a sense.

[@bioplaysretro8586]

Great vid :) i will say the sub-name of the illios map in ow2 is Illios-well so im assuming that large hole is a well and not a bottomless hole

[@logemcdoge4620]

i always just thought it was a reference to that one movie where a spartan kicks a guy into a hole

[@solernargamingph]

The fact that I left Valorant to try Team Fortress 2, is because each of the characters having unique gameplay, the places being very good at its own world building and the gameplay. Tbh cause of “Emesis Blue”(only the people talking about the lore) help me remember what is the greatness of tf2? I’ve played TF2 in year of 2023 when I have to try Steam for the first time. It was good. But now just realizing i’ve missed a chance to play this game now am on my SHS. Man, TF2’s story is just good.😊

[@Chaos_Vergil]

3:23 "With a crashed plane, two different boats, two more cars, another plane that we crashed, camels, another boat, a submarine, AND the funding from the Speedwagon Foundation."

[@m4teusgw10]

"this is actually a really low res jpeg"

[@Malevolence460]

Oh speedwagon my beloved

[@MorganSuhm]

1:28 Have you not seen 300? To Sparta-kick your enemies into a bottomless pit, duh. /s

[@friendofp.24]

I was expecting this to be more video essay slop but you actually brought up a great point that I've never thought of in my 12 years of on and off playing TF2, and opened up my eyes widely to art direction as a whole. The art can literally reinforce the nature of the chaotic gameplay, I'm so used to it just setting moods or directing players.

[@g_rr_tt]

0:40 False. The easiest way for a 'developer' to make a map is to make it Japanese themed.

[@zumonachoinc8524]

Yknow... Until i watched this video, i didnt fully comprehended the whole craze about the arstyle, but still, i think a high-stakes storytelling from maps like Embargo can still be enjoyed casually perfectly, it opens doors to be more open creatively when it comes to make map and scenarios, and of course, little details that appeal like the original developer maps.

[@cheezkid2689]

Valve is excellent at making places feel real. I could walk around a TF2 or CSGO map and it'll usually feel like this place could exist in real life far more than, say, a Call of Duty or Overwatch map.

[@bjokey]

Loved the sections on the detailling in older TF2 maps! Being so old and such staples of the game, it's honestly pretty easy to gloss over and forget about their entire premise and setting, glad you brought them to light. Thaaat being said, I don't think praising TF2's detailling and worldbuilding means having to criticize and downplay that of other games, or of newer maps. I get the whole point of the video is to show TF2 as exceptionally good at worldbuilding, but the choice of maps to be compared did feel a little cherry-picked, and setup to sorta over-emphasise TF2 as some unique anomaly among its peers. It was a little strange to keep on asking what the purpose of the hole on Ilios is, all while never mentioning how that point of the map is literally called "Ilios: Well". And if "Wells don't look like that", then even older TF2 aren't immune from making similar decisions (the saws on Sawmill come to mind). You even mentioned Upward as apparently being an example of a bottomless pit hazard being done right, but... why? What's the lore reason for the RED team to have built a big headquarters on top of a deep pit, with a long set of tracks setup perfectly to allow BLU to try drop a big bomb into the hole? These sorta comparisons and arguments made the video feel a little too "TF2 good, other hero shooters bad"

[@verity-skye]

You're like the Defunctland of TF2/Overwatch and I mean that in the best way possible

[@Shibacki]

If you ever get the chance, take a second to boot up 2fort on a private server and noclip around for awhile. You'll be surprised by how much you miss when playing from within it's boundaries.

[@kingcrimson4504]

the funny thing about splatoon is, the battle stages are just that, stages where you do battle in, which means every design can be explained by "it's just designed that way"

[@pestermaster7617]

I always hated that in overwatch you have multilevel restaurants with neither any stairs, elevators,or even any closed doors drawn on the wall to make it see like you could get to the next levels. Or the whole city block with cars and roads,with no road to get in or out.

[@jacquesnouvel6436]

One of my favorite thing in TF2 is just picking Spy or Scout with the winger, and just exploring the map, revealing in finding all the little details It makes the world feel so alive, like at the end of the round I'll just crack open a beer with my fellow mercs and just relax watching the sunset

[@powersurge_beast]

My world building philosophy fr

[@ThenameisMarsh]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the closing sentiment "a game that truly feels like home" I've been playing TF2 on and off for just over a decade. It's the game I've poured more hours into than any other. every time I come back to it its like visiting my parents house. I don't necessarily live here anymore, but I know every corner and every shelf and every obscure closet like the back of my hand. And every now and again it's good to be back home.

[@yaneproduction]

I love starting to watch your videos, falling asleep mid watch then waking up on the conclusion of the topic learning nothing

[@PanTF]

Awesome video, the way it concludes with Upward last is sick.

[@M30W3R]

I say this any time it gets brought up, but one of my favorite aspects of TF2 is the subtle humor of the maps, like the cord that goes from one wall in 2fort and is plugged directly in the opposing wall's sockets for no reason, or the basketball hoops right above a door frame in a lumber yard. That shit's insanely funny to me, it takes something mundane and makes it surreal but still sort of mundane still, like playing a prank on a roommate with the items in your house. There's also a lot of connections between gameplay and aesthetics. One thing that always impressed me back then is that all the default camera angle when spectating/dead match the actual placement of security cameras for each of the corresponding teams.

[@danmitchell7083]

I found this quite wholesome, and its great to see one of my favourite games get some love in a new way. Great video!

[@shori8438]

0:14 Because it's Colosseum?

[@metalgeo]

In a lot of maps (primarily the originals) you can find horn loudspeakers, placed on walls and poles throughout the environment. Narratively these are the speakers the mercenaries hear the Announcer speak through. And probably also plays the emergency horn sound whenever a round starts. It's a microscopic detail that doesn't make the game better or worse. But it does show how much some map creators have a good eye for detail.

[@Qouth]

Ya'know, you had me instantly hooked within the first microsecond that the song for Meteor Herd was playing. Always gotta appreciate an SA2 fan