The Music prof. Breaks Down Bernstein on Beethoven 7

[@jaydenfung1]

"Such music shouldn't be written." I feel like Beethoven would've taken it as a compliment!

[@Iceland874]

That passage grows and becomes so majestic. I love the 7th. Great video. Thank you.

[@aaronpolichar7936]

The harmony, rhythm, and form are what make the melody good. And the melody and rhythm are what make the harmony good. Beethoven was a composer. He composed pieces, he didn't write any of those elements as an entity in itself. Composers put things together.

[@haroldsdodge]

What an absolutely brilliant video. Thank you Prof, there are so many wonderful insights in your clip. One other thing about Beethoven is the depth of his emotional connection with the listener, what you could almost call his empathy. A presenter on BBC Radio 3 (can't remember who I'm afraid) put it superbly when he reviewed recordings of Beethoven's 5th for R3's "Building A Library" series. At one point the presenter said something like, "while I was putting this programme together I was going through a very difficult time in my life, and I thought, 'Thank God it's Beethoven'." I know exactly what he meant.

[@CommonSwindler]

A lot of people are completely missing Bernstein’s tone here. Bernstein is not “critiquing” Beethoven, he is enunciating how from elements. which extricated from each other are limited, are a constellation of sound taken as a whole. Colors are just colors on their own, but arranged in certain way, they’re the Sistine Chapel.

[@johnboyd9854]

Very poetic and well put.

[@themusicprofessor]

Exactly

[@rithmx]

I think people do get that point, but the point of criticism is that Lenny is really going out of his way to critique Beethoven (usually unfairly) and barely revealing an alternative motive he may have had. In other words, Bernstein's kind of a prick.

[@Open2Reason]

@@rithmx If Leonard was actually critical of Beethoven, he wouldn’t have spent some of his life’s work conducting some of the most perfected, most memorable performances of Beethoven’s work. The guy loved Beethoven, clearly, and he knew how his compositions should have been performed. I recently watched a KZbin video of Bernstein conducting a performance of the 3rd piano concerto. Bernstein’s demeanor was that of pure joy. I can’t remember the name of the pianist, but they hugged each other at the end, because I think they both knew they had performed to perfection. It was that good. This is not a man who dislikes Beethoven. His “critique” is intended to explain the beauty and genius of simple melodic gestures and expressions. But I don’t think he was suggesting in any way that Beethoven was somehow limited to that.

[@robertoriggio117]

What I think many are missing, including the host, is that Bernstein loves Beethoven. He's making a point about Beethoven's genius. He's purposely exaggerating the mediocrity of isolated elements in Beethoven's music as being deceptive. He's identifying why it's so hard to put your finger on what made Beethoven the genius he was. It's elusive to analysis.

[@InfiniteSingularity3.14]

This video brought back a vivid memory from my college days. I once had a music professor who, during a lecture, sat down and played the opening part of a Beethoven piece. He then proceeded to criticize it extensively. For a long time, I wondered about the basis of his critique. Watching Leonard Bernstein here, I now realize that my professor had merely copied Bernstein's exact critique without any originality. Even back then, I felt that my professor's harsh criticism was unwarranted. After all, he could not compose a piece even remotely as brilliant as Beethoven's works. I should also add that his way of putting Beethoven down was to compare him to Mozart who is one of the greatest composers of all time. To have to use Mozart as a way of putting the other composer down is in itself a compliment. It's fascinating to see how true genius, like Beethoven's, stands the test of time, while pretentious critiques fade away.

[@sciagurrato1831]

Reminds me of of a music professor at an Ivy who did exactly the same thing - suggesting “improvements” to several well known masterpieces. This professor thought Roger Sessions (who?) was a great composer of our time.

[@keithsparrow7717]

This Bernstein exposition has also been taken apart by others, e.g. Thomas Goss on 'Orchestratikn Online'

[@christianvennemann9008]

I have the opinion of quality over quantity when it comes to the comparison of Beethoven to Mozart. Yes, Beethoven "only" wrote 9 symphonies, whereas Mozart wrote 40. However, in my opinion, the quality of Beethoven's 9 symphonies (especially 5, 6, 7, and 9) outshine Mozart's quantity of 40 symphonies. But that's just my (hopefully) unpretentious opinion.

[@ultimateconstruction]

​@@christianvennemann9008That's not your opinion, that's an objective fact. Please call things the way they're called.

[@topsecret1837]

@@ultimateconstruction It is ultimately an unpretentious opinion. Beethoven had unparalleled quality in his works during *his* day. You could compare his earlier works with late Mozart/Haydn as they were borne from the same cultural characteristics, but as time translated from one chronological microcosm (chronocosm?) to the next, influenced how composers wrote, which led to Beethoven, which let to early romantic composers.

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

Ooh please do Glenn Gould being rude about Mozart! Pleeeeeeeaaase

[@themusicprofessor]

Brilliant idea. I'd be happy to try.

[@TheMakersRage]

The scale of Beethoven's genius is simply unimaginable. We forget the fact he started going deaf in his late 20s. And yet composed the late string quartets, etc. while almost stone deaf. As Schopenhauer said: "Talent is the ability to hit a target few others can hit. Genius is the ability to hit a target no one else can see."

[@GreenTeaViewer]

honestly that is not such a big deal. Any talented musician, fully trained, would be able continue to write music and hear the music in his head after going deaf in adulthood. Beethoven's massive talent and his personal suffering is more to the point.

[@TheMakersRage]

@@GreenTeaViewer Spoken as someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Keep being jacked tho

[@feraudyh]

@@TheMakersRage I had a musician friend who could look at a symphony and hear it in her head. I was impressed, but she said it was just a consequence of a thorough musical education.

[@TheMakersRage]

@@feraudyh oh really, and what did she compose to compare with even the worst of Beethoven?

[@feraudyh]

@@TheMakersRage she was not a composer at all. She was a musical copyist. On her desk were the handwritten scores of lots of composers and she would use a PC application to turn them into printable files. She worked for Boulez for example. May she rest in peace. PS She sometimes noticed mistakes in the scores and this did not always sit well with her clients.

[@leecornwall8381]

The deep ness of Beethoven’s music is unique.

[@jackmooradian2858]

How deep is that ness?

[@BeethovenIsGrumpyCat]

"Beethoven is not a great melodist" really means "Beethoven did not write Italian opera."

[@Open2Reason]

@@BeethovenIsGrumpyCat Well, he did write one…sort of.

[@ultimateconstruction]

Who tf says He's not a great melodist lmao. The few people who say that just show how clueless they are. His String Quartets are full of extraordinary melodies: Op.18/1 (mvts I, IV), Op.18/2 (such a satisfying piece of music to listen; that secondary theme in I mvt omg, mvts III, IV), Op.18/3 (mvt II), Op.18/4 (mvt IV), Op.18/6 (first mvt is so enjoyable; awesome melodies in mvt II, III, and especially the Allegretto of mvt IV), Op.59/1 (mvts I, II, III, IV; objectively one of if not the greatest String Quartet to ever exist on planet Earth; has one of the most beautiful slow mvts ever written), Op.59/3 (mvts I, II, III; the subject of mvt IV is an actual omfg istg this finale is godlike, so satisfying to listen), Op.74 (mvts I, II (if this and Op.59/1 mvt III doesn't prove that God of Music was a great melodist, idk what does)), etc. And besides, it's not like a piece has to have a memorable melody to be good. Even though Ludwig has some less melodic pieces, he's still considered by many the greatest composer to ever walk on this planet.

[@Open2Reason]

@@ultimateconstruction The guy who sells ice cream from a truck on my street would agree with you.😁

[@BeethovenIsGrumpyCat]

@@Open2Reason Fidelio is in German.

[@BeethovenIsGrumpyCat]

@@ultimateconstruction I totally agree. Beethoven's melodies have such emotional depth for the same reasons people say they're "bad."

[@EXISTENCE1891]

Beethoven's genius didn't need a melody. The absence of a traditional melody makes it a work of genius

[@marcraider]

exactly!

[@aaronaragon7838]

I've seen this video of Bernstein dismissing Ludwig as a melody maker. Bernstein is a musical giant, but wrong in his critique.

[@Open2Reason]

If you listen to the actual movement, the part that Bernstein is “critiquing” is more like an accompaniment on top of which a true melody is born. The piece develops. This part is the setup for the development. It really is a very beautiful movement, and I believe Bernstein knew it.

[@nicolasgabet7561]

Stravinsky said in a conference that the genius of Beethoven came from his struggle to compensate for his total lack of sense of melody.

[@Open2Reason]

@@nicolasgabet7561 And yet it’s Beethoven’s melodies that remain among the most memorable - I’m thinking the 3rd and 4th piano concertos, the violin concerto, many of his piano sonatas, his string quartets, and the sublime melodies of his symphonies. I don’t think thy are complex melodies like we find among the more romantic composers, but they remain simple, exquisite and above all, memorable.

[@roryreviewer6598]

One of my favorite Beethoven melodies is the slow movement theme of the Op. 127 string quartet.

[@themusicprofessor]

Magnificent!

[@FreakinOutOnAudio]

Few thoughts here: 1. It's a chordal/rhythmic musical idea. In a composition with development, especially, the materials can be just about anything. Tchaikovsky has a ton of these kinds of chordal/rhythmic ideas as well, and like Beethoven's they are as unforgettable as any "tune", but of course, these kinds of ideas lose their special identity when the harmonic component is taken away, while a single-note tune, made to stand alone, can sometimes retain it's identity. But there is no hard line separating the concepts. 2. Beethoven is a good contrapuntist, it's just his usual chunky style shows up here, so it's got his unique character. Definitely late Beethoven (like so many composers) gets the contrapuntal bug, but there are some fun contrapuntal moments in the earlier periods, even before he really sets his mind to renewing study later (as pointed out in the video, Beethoven's early student exercises and such don't show a particularly dedicated student, and he even brags about doing it all on instinct instead, but later on he realized the value of what people had been trying to teach him, and admitted he's got more study to do). 3. Mozart, and in his own words, studied hard (especially JS Bach) and worked himself to the bone to master and enrich his contrapuntal technique, and did so relatively later. These were revelatory studies for him, and the shift in his style and quality is massive. I'm just making the point that it doesn't come for free to anyone, even Mozart. 4. Beethoven certainly is a great melodist. His style is chunky most of the time, but he has his flowing moments. The important thing is that his materials are catchy as heck.

[@ultimateconstruction]

I agree with the last sentence! No other composer on Earth could make their music sound so enjoyable and satisfying to listen, even Mozart. Examples: Op.1/1, Op.1/2, Op.1/3, Op.2/2, Op.10/2, Op.15, Op.18/1, Op.18/2, Op.18/4, Op.18/6, Op.19, Op.22, Op.27/1, Op.31/3, Op.36, Op.49/1, Op.54, Op.55, Op.59/1, Op.59/3, Op.73, Op.74, Op.79, Op.90, op.93.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

I think the last movement of Mahler's 9th falls into the territory, too. It's the beautiful harmonic movement in conjunction with the simple melody that works so well.

[@JimCullen]

If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend the video from...omg 12 years ago...by Thomas Goss on the channel OrchestrationOnline entitled "Defending Beethoven". It's another response to that very same Bernstein interview. He actually points to the same 2nd movement of the Pathetique as a counterexample regarding melody. The two videos are, I think, rather good companions to one another.

[@Chesterton7]

Thanks! I look forward to seeing it

[@RichardGreen422]

Part of excellent teaching is leaving students with something they remember. Bernstein's rhetoric here does that--after all, who else would consider *criticizing* Beethoven. The takeaway--that no individual component of Beethoven is the best ever, but that his music is indispensable because it is so much more than the sum of its parts--is correct. I find both his analysis and his communication of it brilliant. And FWIW, he was a great Beethoven conductor. I enjoy his second NYPO 7th as much as anyone's, and his Missa Solemnus with the Concertgebouw is a world-beater. I am glad KZbin led me to your channel.

[@petersilktube]

I don't know, I think we forgive Bernstein a lot because of his obvious musical excellence. But I sort of think here that he's being deliberately provocative to no particular end, and not truly believing his own words. I think it's possible to be a great teacher without the polemic. It's a bit distracting. It's harder to learn the important thing you say in sentence 2 if you said a ludicrous thing like beethoven being bad at harmony in sentence 1.

[@joejoejoe532]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@petersilktube I have to respectfully disagree: Bernstein’s analysis here, exaggerated in places to be sure, is exceptionally effective in its purpose, which is to inspire us to conduct our own exploration of Beethoven’s music. Particularly he is inspiring a non-academic public to listen to Beethoven more closely. A traditional lecturer that just lists examples after examples of excerpts of the great melodies, harmonies, and orchestrations of Beethoven’s music would put me to sleep. That’s because such a lecture would completely miss the greatness of Beethoven. As students we will never grasp Beethoven’s greatness by listening to excerpts: we HAVE to hear it whole, and that helps us appreciate the parts that make up the whole. But by piquing our interest with what APPEARS to be a negative bashing of Beethoven then concluding that his music is inevitably perfect due to the sum of its parts, we are galvanized to listen far more closely and enthusiastically.

[@AIainMConnachie]

Watched that Bernstein thing a long time ago. He really enjoys engaging in hyperbole. I really enjoyed your critique. Thank you

[@luisalonso693]

You could react to glenn gould talking about how mozart was not a good composer in his later years. I think it's a very bold statement and a very controversial one. Great video!!

[@themusicprofessor]

Brilliant idea. I find Gould's remarks about Mozart pretty unforgivable!

[@Grondorn]

Glenn Ghoul

[@kyleethekelt]

Beethoven's work is filled with lovely melodies, as you demonstrated. The 2nd movement of string quartet op 127, the adagio, is achingly beautiful. `However, I get the feeling that Beethoven himself didn't regard melody so much as queen as a means to an end, and for me that's no bad thing.

[@MichaelTLam]

Love the opus 110 fugue 🙏 First time encountering the sonata I didn't understand it at all Now it's one of my favourites

[@ftumschk]

"The Music Prof. Breaks Down Bernstein on Beethoven 7" - Great video... I look forward to seeing parts 1-6 ;)

[@martijn1111]

In 1812 Rossini wrote an aria on one note in Ciro in Babilonia for a supporting role, because the singer was in tune on only one tone. Beethoven could have heard about it before december 1813, when his seventh was first played. Unfortunately i never could find it, so I suppose it was replaced. Bernstein was never big in Rossini I suppose.

[@andreivulpescu503]

I find this a very interesting comment, I had no idea about this. I do know Beethoven had a thing for minimalist melodies (the trio from his first Symphony’s Scherzo comes to mind, as well as the scherzo from one of his middle period quartets that I can’t remember the number of). Nevertheless, given he was almost certainly jealous of Rossini’s melodic capabilities, this is a very intriguing possibility.

[@jihanjoo]

Also, I just wanted to say that it's perfectly "okay" to say Für Elise is a great melody, and to say the Ode to Joy theme is a great melody. In fact, I would personally rank them both as not just some of Beethoven's greatest melodies but some of THE gretest melodic materials that have been ever conceived by all humanity. If you hate them, it's because you have heard them too much, not necessarily because they are bad melodies. But weren't we all just completely hooked and mesmerized by them the very first time we heard them as a child (if you actually CAN remember that far back in your life, that is)? I remember it. I really loved both of them as a small child and was just completely fascinated. Even if I grew to distance myself from them because I "knew better," as I get older and older, I just keep coming back to them with new appreciation. They are infinitely memorable and hummable. Virtually every single person in the modern world can hum it. That's not nothing. Its appeal is absolutely universal. Their longevity and prevalance should be counted as evidence of their enduring greatness and immense strength. The fact that they are EVERYWHERE and so ubiquitous should not be counteed against them, it should be considered a crowning achievement that very few other artists have ever achieved. I see that people here (including our professor) are going out their way to NOT mention Für Elise and Symphony 9 maybe because they are too "obvious" or too "pedestrian" (I understand that Herr Beethoven himself might have agreed with this assessment!) but I think we definitely should acknowledge them as some the greatest, if not THE greatest, melodies that Beethoven has ever written and certainly the most impactful, even if Ludwig Beethoven himself might not have thought them to be most representative of his output. To me, it would be inconceivable to discuss Beethoven as a crafter of melody without discussing Für Elise and Ode to Joy.

[@themusicprofessor]

The next video on this channel will be about Beethoven 9. As for Für Elise: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oJPPd4RnrM2La9Usi=V-uIXBHRagiVxCaE

[@adhdlama2403]

The point that it's an unremarkable melody is so incredibly reductive. I don't understand why Bernstein pretended not to understand contrapuntal melodies , that the inner melody and the outer melody play off one another? He plays it the "block" section, and emphazises the E for no reason other than it 's on the top and the melody is "supposed" to be on the top. No orchestra would play the first exposition of the theme like that. I am mystified by this argument from Bernstein.

[@andysoul295]

Love your videos. Thank you

[@michaelktori5178]

This passage from Beethoven 7th has fascinated me since I was a kid at the London Proms watching Sir Malcomb (Flash Harry) conducting.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

A magnificent and wide-ranging talk Matthew. I learned a huge amount.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you Rob. Much appreciated

[@brianbuch1]

I'm a fan of Beethoven's counterpoint. The fugues in Op 110, IMHO is Beethoven's way of making a statement on the topic. Fugue 1 is in a very traditional style, as if he's saying, "Herr Bach, I can write a very good fugue in your style." Fugue 2 is "And this is how I, Beethoven, write a fugue in mine."

[@ceticobr]

What about the first movement of op. 131 and the Grosse Fugue?

[@myouatt5987]

Fantastic video, Prof ... I really enjoy these commentaries! ... Loved the discussion on the 'allegretto' nature - I'm sure Bernstein could have transmuted it into a Mahlerian version ... but then you mentioned Mahler later on! Nice one - was that Poulenc I spotted in the background?! Now there'd be a nice subject for a video! 😀😀 Cheers - many thanks.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, his Mouvements Perpétuels

[@crogelbe]

Lenny is so right. Every note is exactly what your ear wants to hear next. Funny that I was just listening to Zadok the Priest the other day and as fantastic as that piece is, there's this one cord after the climax of the initial build up where I'm always like, I wish he hadn't gone that way right there. Or Schubert's great symphony at the end when that glorious theme comes back and I always feel like he cuts it a little bit short and ends too soon. And I know I have no business criticizing composers like Handel or Schubert, but the point is I never feel that way with Beethoven.

[@DenianArcoleo]

Rather frustrating video. Bernstein is clearly heading (from the beginning) towards the inescapable fact that, despite there being superior composers in every individual musical element, Beethoven's music is greater than the sum of its parts and (generally) greater than anyone else's.

[@bozidarsicel3884]

Bernstein is showing off his charlatan's side.

[@billbailey7193]

Beethoven Bach and Mozart are Champions League winning teams. There are many magnificent composers but those three are above everyone. And who is the best out of those three - it has to be Bach - all three have such identifiable styles, but Bach’s style is almost a completely separate type of music. No one composes in a style like Bach.

[@bazingacurta2567]

​​@@billbailey7193 There are at least five composers other than Bach and Beethoven that I rank above Mozart.

[@cyberprimate]

Not the first time I hear an accomplished composer say Beethoven wasn't a great melodist. First time I heard it was from film composer Vladimir Cosma. I think by "…not a great…" Bernstein meant "not a virtuosic" melodist, harmonist… My teacher says a great fugue sounds simple even when it's complex behind the curtain. Beethoven's fugues rarely sound simple.

[@jihanjoo]

I also took Bernstein's commentary to be highly complimentary of Beethoven. When he says, "that's not a melody" or "that's not a good melody," he's not saying Beethoven doesn't know how to write a good melody. And I don't think he is contradicting himself when he also says "I like it too." What he seems to be saying is, "Even with this motivic material that may be considered by some to be barely a melody much less a good melody, Beethoven is able to craft this dramatic and deeply moving passage through harmony and rhythm." It's like Beethoven was challenging himself (or proving to others) to write great music with an extremely simple melodic line. I hear much admiration and repsect in Berstein's voice as he describes Beethoven's 7th symphony.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, Bernstein admired it immensely.

[@stampeaceful]

That's right. It's all said to build up the improbability of Beethoven's genius.

[@sciagurrato1831]

Bernstein, for all his self-proclaimed genius, will be remembered for his show music. I agree with the Music Professor about Bernstein’s “showing off” in front of select audiences such as MTT.

[@adroharv5140]

the way I would see it is it's charactered by it's identity being unique. I refer to my own melodies as being uniquely identifiable like that of a face in that we are all identifiable uniquely despite sharing the same key things that make a face. Structures too though can be identifiable if there is a line in which you follow but I wouldn't personally see melody as anything too large because you're then having think about what that structure represents rather than how it is memorably. I would certainly describe this part of Beethoven's piece here as melody

[@stpd1957]

Really good post, thank you

[@galeem713]

I was asked if I could have a meal with any two people, who would they be? My reply was Beethoven and Michaelangelo.

[@duncanmckeown1292]

"Motivic"! Yes! It's interesting how much a description of Beethoven would also apply to Haydn...in spite of Beethoven's criticism of his lessons with the older composer!

[@themusicprofessor]

He revered Haydn really. They just didn't get on very well.

[@shlomox4003]

Bernstein's explanation of Beethoven, which he did in many lectures and shows and books, is so misunderstood by people who want to make Bernstein look bad. Bernstein is explaining why Beethoven was great, by first explaining the less-important ways in which he wasn't.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, of course this is true.

[@jamesscottvideos]

Bernstein ironically took part of the melody from Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto slow movement for his own Somewhere in Westside Story.

[@lebannerfan65]

I have long wanted someone knowledgeable to break this down, and to engage with Bernstein's rather strong opinion.

[@jonathanp935]

There is someone else that breaks this down too, look up "defending beethoven".

[@schubertuk]

Bernstein is clearly defining a melody as limited to the upper register - in that sense, the Allegretto has an apparently dull, almost poor melody. But as you astutely point out, the melody is in the inner voice movements in combination - which results in one of the most beguiling effects in the classical repertoire. Bernstein is both a genius and and, perhaps, allowing his own ego to dominate by trying to expose the magic of Beethoven by demonstrating how a piece can be great whilst appearing on the surface to be seriously flawed. To be fair to Bernstein he did do a TV exploration of Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata (opus 106) in which he eulogised very passionately without any of this silly positioning - and no criticism of this fugue! Beethoven's fugues are sublime, going places Bach could never have dreamed of (no criticism of Bach intended!). Whilst I will happily accept views that Bach was the greater fugal writer (certainly in quantity, variety etc) - Beethoven's own efforts can stand side-by-side without embarrassment, not repeating Bach, but taking the next step. I believe Berlioz wrote his Symphony Fantastique in 1830, 6 years after the first performance of Beethoven's 9th - not within a year as you suggest - still a ground-breaking feat!

[@themusicprofessor]

Excellent comment. I believe he began sketching ideas for it as early as 1827, when he fist saw Harriet Smithson as Ophelia.

[@schubertuk]

@@themusicprofessor Wow! I think the apparent miracle of Berlioz's innovation is something I still need to explore more. I love his music and often feel we do not recognise his genius as highly as we should. I am also curious as to how or whether Berlioz's more guitar focussed style affected his musical conception (versus Beethoven & many contemporaries who would count their primary instrument a piano), including Berlioz's often eclectic choice of bass notes.

[@themusicprofessor]

I agree that not being a pianist-composer meant that his harmonic choices were very individual. He is often criticised for this, but I think it enabled him to create unique and extraordinary harmony, unlike anyone else. He is an amazing composer. He seems to have seen himself as a successor to Beethoven, and in many ways he was, although his music is perhaps too idiosyncratic to be widely popular.

[@Tizohip]

Great video

[@Chesterton7]

“Gazing into Bernstein’s eyes. Oh here comes the cigarette, I wonder how long it’ll take him to light up.” Howling. You’re hilarious.

[@solitarymusician]

Personally, I usually go for lemon ginger tea at the piano. Very good commentary, especially on the cigarette 🚬...Slàinte! 🍵

[@michaelbell9134]

A further example of masterly orchestration, in the Andante from the Fifth Symphony. The movement is in Ab, with a recurring alternate passage in C major. The martial character of the C major section is pointed up by the use of trumpets (in C) and timpani in C/G. After the third and final appearance of the C major section the G timp simply disappears, and the trumpets lose their C major mode and confine themselves to the single home note, C. But both continue to be used, sparingly, for the purposes of discreet orchestral colour, and the effect is amazing.

[@galeem713]

The 7th was pretty good for a deaf guy. What’s Bernstein’s excuse?

[@thebones]

Beethoven doesn't need the approval of a second tier composer like Bernstein.

[@Chesterton7]

Bernstein is a great songwriter. Wrote marvelous magical melodies. But I agree with the professor that here he’s just showing off his opinion, which is of course subjective and in this case somewhat idiotic.

[@Chesterton7]

The Trump on the balcony made me laugh.

[@Chesterton7]

Professor I find your commentaries brilliant and entertaining.

[@thewavingbear]

The King of Inevitability

[@pjkorab]

As much as I idolize Bernstein, this whole argument of his is pure showmanship and trying to be edgy.. I mean how an exceptional musician such as himself can claim that Beethoven is bad at harmony, orchestration, counterpoint, basically all aspects of musical composition, AND simultaneously is a master of form (which actually is a way of organizing all those aspects in time - so you can't have "perfect form" and be bad at everything else) is truly beyond me.

[@omegaomtv]

All I can say is Beethoven's music, inspires, uplifts me, more then any other composer. He usually wins best composer from amateur listener votes.

[@billczerno215]

I think it was Cherubini who told Berlioz : "All the same, one shouldln't write music like this! " after the 1st audition of Beethoven's 5 th in Paris ; and Berlioz replied : no need to worry, Maestro, music like this isn't going to be written any soon.

[@lapanen007]

I wonder... If you'd play it even a bit faster than what did, you could imagine (once again.. were talking of beethoven here) a heartbeat in the left hand material

[@James-eb9gs]

I agree that Beethoven wasn't a great melodist. I'm certainly not saying he was bad by any means but compared to composers like Bach, Richard Strauss or Mahler, he was not of the same caliber. He uses themes or motifs and expands upon them. with the seventh it's the rhythm that makes it so extraordinary. But that doesn't matter at all. He's not only my favourite composer but I believe he is perhaps the most extraordinary genius who ever lived. Leonard Bernstein did say Beethoven is the greatest composer who ever lived.

[@James-eb9gs]

Definitely don't agree with Lenny when he says Beethoven was a poor orchestrator.

[@paulwl3159]

Surely Bernstein was just paying an oblique compliment to Beethoven’s amazing ability to create greatness out of apparently unpromising material? And writing fugues wasn’t really what the music of Beethoven’s time was about. But when he did turn to fugal writing later in life his results were extraordinary.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, he was. This video isn't really disagreeing with Bernstein's central point - it's just an opportunity to go into the Beethoven topic a bit. Although fugues were at their peak in the late Baroque era it's interesting that all 3 of the great classical Viennese composers (Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven) enriched their compositional style by exploring fugal practice. Baron von Swieten was a key figure in all this - we owe him a debt of gratitude!

[@Michaelhendersonnovelist1]

I’ve watched that video several times in the past because it’s fascinating to hear Bernstein criticize Beethoven regarding the basic components of composition, particularly given he had studied with the best. It illustrates that in art, there are the basic tools, and then there is the creation, which may require deviation or even tossing them aside. Picasso is a great example. He could paint and draw as well as any old master, but that’s not where he was going. In a way, criticizing Beethoven for his orchestration, etc., is like criticizing Picasso because he figures deviate from reality and from the “rules.” Certainly Beethoven knew and could follow the rules of orchestration, etc., but that wasn’t what he wanted to accomplish. And the proof is that he’s still played today. I submit that had Beethoven not existed, and a composer today wrote about anything Beethoven did after the third symphony, particularly the late sonatas and quartets, they would be revered as a great composer.

[@fabianwhs9891]

Bernstein is very much of a personality That is being showed off often when he speeks and many say in the music I heard people saying "hearing Bernstein" in the pieces he conducted But often, there is a lot of profoundness behind his statements and practices

[@cpklapper]

I like the fugue in Beethoven’s “Eroica”.

[@themusicprofessor]

The symphony or the variations?

[@cpklapper]

@@themusicprofessor the symphony

[@qwaqwa1960]

Tea on the piano? :-)

[@federicoprice2687]

You should see the cakes and biscuits inside!

[@bengt-erikfroberg9191]

I must say I seriously think Bernstein is high in this video. Furthermore he divides melody, harmony and all the other component of music into discrete entities and not a combined whole. "It's not a good tune"??? It's a fucking genius piece, they had to repeat itwhen the symphony premiered. And this "He was STRUGGLING with this and that" - you know what? I hope he did, because man!, the things this guy did for music and music history development. No, Bernstein - not your best piece of pedagogical essays. It's even a little bit cringe actually.

[@ceticobr]

The fact that so many people did not get his point is a testament of his bad argumentation.

[@fredrickroll06]

Beethoven was a better orchestrator than Schubert or Brahms - which is saying a very great deal! Like Mozart, his orchestration is very transparent. Bernstein doesn't mention the COUNTERPOINT to the main melody of the Adagietto - the counterpoint is the ACTUAL main melody - a wonderful, hyponotizing melody, one of the best!

[@themusicprofessor]

Odd that he didn't mention the countermelody.

[@DB_SouthernExtract]

Where Bernstein talks about (almost 'at' Beethoven and his music), you speak through his music. This is not only more meaningful, but more compassionate and more faithful. I was rather chomping at the bit the whole video (and as usual, loved it), waiting for what I thought would be the one piece that could shatter most all of what Bernstein was espousing: Beethoven's Eroica Variations. I think the fugue at the end is as good as any that JS Bach wrote. In fact, I think with Beethoven you can always go back to Bach (forgive the cliched pun).You pointed out as he progressed from masterpiece to masterpiece, that he intended to use B♭A C B♮(H) eventually. I look on these variations as Beethoven's own "Goldberg" variations. Melody, harmony, tone, color, fugue (even a canon thrown in for good measure!). There is, as you said, much humor in his music, and I think especially so in these variations. Even a sense of childish youthfulness - like a kid with his first guitar pounding out things for the sheer joy of loud, ebullient repetition. Lastly, in Beethoven's 7th, the allegretto is one of the most beautiful melodies - it is just almost never fully carried entirely by one voice. I liken it (once again) to Bach; it is very similar in its progression to the Chaconne for solo violin. I think you'd find no greater legitimacy for that movement than with this comparison. Thanks for your discussions.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you for your comment!

[@stooch66]

Bernstein LOVES Beethoven. See his recordings on the first movement of the Eroica and on the 5th. Bernstein is showing that Beethoven makes masterpieces out of elements that themselves are not magical. He pushes his case a little too hard here, but he is blown away by Beethoven’s genius. He said in that Eroica discussion, “it is like he has an inside track to truth and rightness.”

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes indeed. I know he loves him really!

[@stooch66]

@@themusicprofessoryes, I gathered that you know it, but I see a lot of comments by people who don’t get the point of what Bernstein is doing here, and they just lock in on his “critiques.”

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. This kind of position-taking is so common nowadays and very disappointing. I'm going to discuss it in my next video in fact.

[@gradwhan]

best fugue writer after js bach was Haydn in my view. the creation, the masses... full with amazing fugues

[@variationxx]

Since probably the late 19th century there has always been this desire by certain composers to knock Beethoven down a few notches. This either stems from massive ignorance or massive insecurity, or in the case of the video - drugs??? The only other composer near his level is Bach. Regarding melody - he was probably the greatest true instrumental melodist. The Ninth alone is a masterclass of melody. From the opening melody based on the primal 5ths to the invention of the never ending lyrical melody of the 3rd movement to the fact that he purposefully created, in the Ode to Joy, a melody so simple a child could play it, yet so profound that it has inspired people for 200 years, Beethoven shows that he bends the nature of melody to his will. I don’t know of any other composer that could distill so much power into a melody that only has 5 notes played stepwise. I know it’s sacrilege, but I revere his fugues more than Bach’s, and I LOVE Bach! Beethoven just did so much more with the concept. The Grosse Fuge alone is probably the single greatest piece ever written, but the variety and depth of his fugues are just beyond astonishing. When I studied music there was so much to be made about the mathematical underpinnings of Bach’s fugues, which is truly amazing, but I think Fugal writing really came into it’s zenith with the late works of Beethoven. And Bernstein never discussed rhythm, for which again Beethoven is at his greatest. Even Stravinsky was forced to acknowledge this. His rhythmic genius gives his music immense power - a power that was not even close to equaled until the 20th century. He was also a great harmonist, his focus being on the teleological nature of his work instead of just for color. I think Bernstein, talented though he was, shows himself to be a true idiot for putting this nonsense on video.

[@themusicprofessor]

Interesting comment. I too am a huge fan of Beethoven's fugues. I think Bernstein is using hyperbole here to make a dramatic point. He loves Beethoven really!

[@gabbleratchet1890]

That’s Maximilian Schell! The crazy scientist from The Black Hole..

[@bozidarsicel3884]

Bernstein is simply making a caricatures of himself.

[@Tolstoy111]

If you watch the entire talk it makes sense. It’s all rhetorical.

[@dr7246]

Beethoven’s genius, in my opinion, was in development of materials, pushing musical forms, and creating drama. His most brilliant fugue and contrapuntal writing, imo, is the first movement of the op 131 quartet. And his best vocal writing is the Cavatina in the op 130 quartet!!

[@themusicprofessor]

Both great pieces. I want to do a video about the cavatina.

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

My radiology professor was Lindsay Rowe, and his books were the most widely sold among all professions, Chiropractors and Medical students combined. Whenever he discussed Pagets' Disease, he would talk about Beethoven. An abnormal growth of bone after adulthood. Often the first sympton is that the person complains that his hat is smaller. In Luigis case, his auditory canals laid down more bone, compressing and eventually crushing the VIIth nerve causing first his tinnitus and then his total deafness. I've seen one patient who wasn't diagnosed early and suffered from horrible articular pains. He must have been suffering the martyr...and he gifted us with his music. Many musicians have busts of Beethoven, are the facial features different with age? Lindsay was a meticulous researcher, I don't think he would have thrown that idea out haphazardly. BTW I think Leonard was suffering from a bad hair day. I lost a lot of respect for him when I saw this interview. He had done so much to install a love for classical music even in moi, a poor lad born with two left ears, who was told to only move my lips and not make a sound for my early musical career.

[@ccfliege]

Maximilian Schell played in a great WW2 movie with Klaus Kinski. Just a sidenote

[@saibhandari]

Woah!

[@sybedijkstra1]

Melody: for example the opening Allegro of the 'Frühling' sonata (sonata nr. 5 for violin and piano), one of the most beautiful melodies I know. But otherwise I agree with the analysis that Beethoven coud work miracles with almost any thematic material.

[@rp6762]

Perhaps I'm an idiot, but I love quite a few of Beethoven's melodies. And besides requiring from him that he should be just like other composers is just stupid. He wrote great riffs. They f.. rock! ;)

[@climate42]

Calling beethoven an 18th century composer is pretty accurate. His taste was clearly viennese classical, which was not the fashion of even the slightly younger hummel. Expressive to be sure, but the expression is amplified by discipline that younger composers didn't seem to have the same interest in.

[@richardkastlemusic]

Thank you Professor. Bernstein hated Beethoven. I posted 2 videos on my KZbin channel about his stunts as a conductor. In the 1980's he conducted all 9 of Beethoven's symphonies on TV. Bernstein added trumpets to the orchestra creating an ugly trumpet heavy sound. Then he did an interview where Shell asked him about Beethoven's ability to orchestrate. Bernstein said: IT'S BAD! HE HAS THE TRUMPETS STICKING OUT. THEY'RE DROWNING OUT EVERYONE ELCE. He was purposely making Beethoven sound bad and then lying about his ability to orchestrate. This is just one of the many stunts I identify in my videos.

[@gerastiman]

The opening of the allegretto foregrounds the accompaniment of the (very lovely) melody that starts in bar 27 on violas & cellos, no? A little like the finale of the eroica. Making a feature of the accompaniment as a thing of interest in itself before revealing the melody that sits on it, not a unique idea (perhaps Haydn's Lark quartet opening, or full statement of ground bass in e.g. Dido's Lament), though Beethoven takes it a good deal further, giving it a quasi-melodic prominence through the whole movement. But it's a bit daft for Bernstein to pick on an accompaniment figure as an example of weak melodic invention...

[@Lion_ofJudah]

that part is so beautiful....there are no words to describe it ... bernstein is a bully....:) Beethoven is just out of this world....

[@TheGloryofMusic]

Most of Beethoven's fugues are pastiches of Handel (Missa Solemnis, Diabelli Variations, etc.). But some are highly original. Adolph Bernhard Marx said of the fugue from the Opus 110 Sonata, "This is a Beethovenian fugue". And the fugue from the development section of the Opus 101 Sonata's finale is unique. Rosen remarked on how the subject is a musical joke. The suffix to the trill is broken off before resolving, leaving the listener hanging in mid-air.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. A characteristically gruff joke.

[@basantibaksi6]

Reminds me of Glenn Gould's comments about Mozart. You need ego of a special, distorted, kind. to be essentially (at best) a second rate musician, passing derogatory comments about two of the titans of western classical music. Has anybody done this with/to JS Bach?

[@themusicprofessor]

I have a feeling that Delius may have made critical remarks about Bach.

[@johnboyd9854]

Thank you for another fascinating video Professor! When you mentioned Beethoven’s influence on Schubert in the context of the 7th Symphony it made me think of my favorite Schubert piece, Gesang der Geister Uber den Wassern, D. 714. The rhythm, the lower register, the chromatically descending harmony, etc. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJmVm2p3itmLjbM

[@themusicprofessor]

Absolutely right. An inspired response to Beethoven's Allegretto. It's a marvellous piece.

[@coreylapinas1000]

By far the most interesting work he never finished was the Lieder on Hebrew Modes.

[@themusicprofessor]

I will listen.

[@coreylapinas1000]

@@themusicprofessor it's not available but the concept alone takes precedence.

[@rogerhardy6306]

I wonder whether Lennie is trying to impress the younger, handsome Schell for some ulterior motive...

[@loicetienne7570]

Wasn't Beethoven a very innovative orchestrator for his time? I do not know enough about the history of the orchestra, but Beethoven was a pioneer I believe. My opinion is that Beethoven was a master of orchestration, playing with colors like no other, as if the orchestra were a single instrument. Apparently, there is an academic consensus about suitable criteria for judging an orchestration, but it seems to me that there are inappropriate for appreciating Beethoven.

[@OmarTravelAdventures]

I never liked Bernstein's interpretation of Beethoven, and this clip helps explains why. Regarding fugues...I would like your opinion about the Missa Solemnis fugues.

[@themusicprofessor]

I think they're wonderful. The final fugue at the end of the Gloria is almost superhuman (and the one at the Credo isn't bad either!) To be fair to Bernstein (who I admire very much) there are some fine recordings of Beethoven.

[@N-JKoordt]

Dog was brilliant in this one 👍

[@tagoldich]

I think anyone attempting to critique Beethoven at his best is just making a fool of himself. Back, Mozart, Beethoven are beyond critique.

[@joejoejoe532]

It’s mystifying to me that people repeatedly interpret Bernstein’s analysis as a negative critique of Beethoven. It’s like they completely forget the ending part where Bernstein’s culminating conclusion about Beethoven is that his music sounds like it was communicated to him by God. That’s pretty damn high statement of admiration. The thesis is pretty clear to me; Beethoven’s music is greater than the sum of its parts. Finally, no one is above critique: in fact we learn the most not by critiquing the average, but the extraordinary.

[@tagoldich]

@@joejoejoe532 Yeah, I don't remember what I was thinking when I wrote that. I agree, of course, Bernstein was just having some fun calling attention to the extreme simplicity of the underlying motif of the 2nd movement of the 7th. What he was actually pointing out was one of Beethoven's super-powers; his ability to take something very simple and build it into something monumental.

[@johannaklein8187]

Isn’t Bernstein using Beethovens tune in the 5th piano concerto, 2nd movement, in the westside story? ‘There ‘s no place for us’.

[@themusicprofessor]

It seems so (but possibly unconsciously)

[@4grammaton]

Bernstein knows that there's a difference between a theme and a melody, and that there's a difference between the qualities that make a good theme and a good melody, but, as a classical music populariser addressing a naive demographic, he's banking on the total musical-theoretical ignorance of his audience for rhetorical effect.

[@mcrumph]

I would like to suggest that next time, you mike your keyboard. It's fine if you're facing it & not talking, but if you're just twisting about & speaking, its level is quite low.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yeah I agree to be honest

[@jamesboswell9324]

Would you indulge me with a personal theory relating to that now famous concert when Beethoven premiered his 5th and 6th symphonies? A thought that came to me is how those two works somehow became the seeds to two main strands of future symphonic development. The programmatic, somewhat autobiographical and lyrical 6th, a signal for all-encompassing visions that lead to Berlioz and then Mahler, while the minimalist and more self-contained 5th signposts an alternative direction that foreshadows Sibelius. As someone who loves all these composers but knows next to nothing about musical theory, does that idea make any sense at all?

[@themusicprofessor]

It does make sense. The 6th certainly points to Berlioz and further forward to Wagner's Tristan! The 5th: I can see Sibelius in both pieces actually. Stravinsky also comes to mind (his wonderful Symphony in C uses the Beethoven 5 rhythm).

[@jamesboswell9324]

@@themusicprofessor Interesting. Thanks for replying.

[@hunt3r36]

Personally, I was shocked when I heard Bernstein make that statement. That opening theme has so much NOBILITY, and, I'm sorry to say, Bernstein had no concept of. Then, he went on, if I remember correctly, (it has been many years since), he went on with more pejorative statements about the "orchestration". These things he said of BEETHOVEN! WOW!!!! He never did match THE GREAT MASTER he ever wrote with anything as beautiful as THE VII.

[@themusicprofessor]

I think he was being deliberately provocative!

[@bucal53]

Why aren't you demonstrating on a regular piano?

[@WestVillageCrank]

Then there's that crap melody from the 2nd movement of the "Emperor". That lousy tune with the leaping 7th. The one LB borrowed for "Somewhere" from WEST SIDE STORY.

[@themusicprofessor]

I've never noticed that! You're right.

[@WestVillageCrank]

@@themusicprofessor There is another crib, but LB would probably not make fun of the melodist. "Ohio", from WONDERFUL TOWN, is liberated from the andante of the Brahms 2nd piano concerto. And having pointed those things out, I admire LB as conductor, as composer, as teacher... but he could be be a tendentious imp, couldn't he?

[@themusicprofessor]

I wouldn't be without him though!

[@WestVillageCrank]

@@themusicprofessor We agree! I saw him conduct a couple times: THE DYBBUK, and a Sibelius 5th at Tanglewood. And I once spent an afternoon with Sid Ramin, Bernstein's lifelong friend and orchestrator of WEST SIDE STORY. Not quite close enough to LB, but we take what we can get.

[@ultimateconstruction]

2nd movement of the Ingenious Emperor is the most beautiful slow movement ever composed.

[@CarolHaynesJ]

Beethoven 7 ... the last work Bernstein ever conducted - and probably knew it was the end. Significant? The essence of his argument is B's music is greater than the sum of it's parts ... not the greatest at any particular "skill" but put it altogther and it becomes something sublime, inevitable and unsurpassed. Just discovered your channel (this and your Gould on Mozart video) ... my one wish is you react to the whole thought rather than pick at individual components - at times you were actually contradicting the very point Lenny was trying to make.

[@MichaelTLam]

Examples of great melodies: Sonata 7 mvt 3 Sonata 12 mvt 1 Sonata 18 mvt 3 Sonata 24 mvt 1

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you Michael.

[@ultimateconstruction]

There's so much more.

[@Jasper_the_Cat]

Tom Jobim would like to have a word. Iykyk.

[@dmytryk7887]

That occured to me as well. Not the best rendition but --> kzbin.info/www/bejne/horHo5uKgZiJeM0si=j4QRQDMZSVjHUgb0

[@martineyles]

How about the 6th symphony. I think this has some wonderful melodies and orchestration, yet it seems to eschew some things that he is praised for in some of his other symphonies. It shares trombones and piccolo with (and première date) with the 5th symphony, which embodies all the things he is usually praised for. They are very different, but together demonstrate Beethoven's genius, while including what Bernstein praised, is actually much greater and much broader.

[@themusicprofessor]

Actually the contrast between symphonies 5 & 6 will come up a little bit in our next video! He wrote them in parallel and they were meant to represent opposite sides of his compositional personality: one fierce, concise, dramatic, developmental, the other lyrical, expansive, idyllic, melodic. I agree: the 6th is a delightful anomaly among his symphonies. A marvellous piece - all the more so because it's somewhat unusual (but he does excel at lyrical works: the Pastoral sonata, the Spring Sonata, the A major cello sonata, the 4th piano concerto, the Archduke trio, piano sonatas Op 90, 101, 110 etc.)

[@rb4421rb]

Schubert was indeed obsessed with this long-short-short-long rhythm. He wrote a set of great variations on an original theme for piano four-hand D813 in which he plays a lot with this short rhythmic motif (not exactly present in the theme). kzbin.info/www/bejne/boqrZ3yHed-La7c . I don't know if Beethoven would have reinvented the fabric of music, had he lived any longer, but Schubert would certainly have changed it all (just listen to the harmonies of variation 7 at 11: 20 or of the Doppelgänger).

[@dbass4973]

Beethoven's choices are inevitable because everybody who came after him ripped him off. His innovations became cliches to the point that it's impossible to listen to his music objectively and/or without anachronistic judgements. The only other musician like this was of course Johann Sebastian Bach.

[@coreylapinas1000]

Wim Winters would have a heart attack if he heard your version.

[@themusicprofessor]

Well let's hope he never hears it then!