This Baroque Composer Created Insane Polytonality!

A hundred years before Mozart was born, Heinrich Biber was a court musician in Salzburg, and was considered the leading violin virtuoso of his day. Biber wrote his Battalia à 10 in 1673. It is a programmatic suite for string orchestra, depicting an army preparing for war, getting drunk, marching, and fighting a battle. It ends with a 'lament for wounded musketeers'. The second movement is a quodlibet, a type of 17th century drinking song, during which different singers would bring different folk songs and sing them simultaneously and raucously. Biber titled his second movement, Die liederliche gesellschaft von allerley Humor (“The lusty society of all types of humor”) and, in it, he mixed together Slovak, Bohemian, Austrian and German tunes. In the second violin part, Biber noted, in Latin, “hic dissonat ubique nam ebrii sic diversis Cantilenis clamare solent.” (“Here it is dissonant everywhere, for thus are drunkards accustomed to bellow with different songs.”) Biber creates, for about a minute, an astonishingly dissonant tangle of musical lines, that seem to prefigure 20th century polytonality.
Interestingly, the melody in the third violin part is the German folk song, Kraut und Rüben haben mich vertrieben (“cabbages and turnips have driven me away”), a melody which J.S.Bach later used in his own quodlibet, which is the final contrapuntal display in his Goldberg Variations of 1741. In Bach’s quodlibet, the melody is presented, along with a second folk song, Ice bin so lang night bey dir g’west (“I haven’t been with you for such a long time”) in richly harmonised 4-part counterpoint.
MUSICAL EXCERPTS USED IN THIS VIDEO
Heinrich Biber: Batalia à 10 (1673)
Voices of Music
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J.S.Bach: Variation 30 (Quodlibert) from The Goldberg Variations
Alexandre Tharaud, piano
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#Biber #Bach #musicprofessor
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Edited by Ian Coulter ( www.iancoulter... )
Produced and directed by Ian Coulter & Matthew King

[@catrap5287]

so this is the piece the string section is always playing before rehearsal starts

[@xyCommander]

Best line I read in a lon, long time. SO TRUE!

[@alonzogarbanzo]

In fact, this is the very piece I heard the high-school orchestra doing the other day. What? That was supposed to be Brandenburg #3?

[@michaelsolomon6594]

Oh my God 😂

[@user-pu9iu1jf8i]

So true!

[@tjallingdalheuvel126]

Actually always had a liking for that pre concert "chaos". Great to open up some uncommon brain paths.

[@derwishrenegat743]

Actually, it's very interesting. Because the composers of that time avoided dissonances without resolution. Bach especially did not like them - biographers say that when the sons of Johann Sebastian Bach were practicing the harpsichord, and their mother called them to dinner, they ran without completing the cadenza. Because of this, Father Bach could not fall asleep, he would get up from the couch and complete the chords, then lie down and fall asleep!

[@davidukelele7575]

bach composed things with melodies or notes out of tune, but that worked well, in the Brandenburg concerts for example.

[@AvntXardE]

Opening of Johannes passion has quite some dissonances.

[@potsdam521]

I think Bach was never driven by seeking consonances, but his sons actually were …

[@most_sane_piano_enthusiast]

madlad

[@ralphwortley1206]

This seems intrinsic to the musically sensitive. My aunt was a music teacher with a university qualification. She taught both her sons. To tease her they would occasionally end something with a hanging G7 or the like. She would feel compelled to get up and resolve it. Harmless family fun. Listen also to the last bars of Schubert's 4-hand Fantasy in F, and realise how seductively he led you miles away from F. and then pointedly brings you back in a few crashing chords.

[@SpaceMalakhi]

Those two last chords (1'27") are absolutely gorgeous

[@themusicprofessor]

Aren't they?!

[@musilily926]

1:27

[@bachagain1685]

Em7add11 - Dm/Em7

[@alexanderbayramov2626]

Absolutely, they sound sort of 'fresh' and absolutely not like anything from baroque, they'd fit in a horror movie probably

[@ImAnBoosterBaby]

Absolutely. I would expect such harmony in a messiaen work, or maybe at least a passion piece and not some - excuse me - random folk suite. ':D

[@Quasihamster]

It's simple. Biber is German for beaver, Bach means creek. Bach washed the beaver dam away, releasing the congestion, kindof. In hydrology, this is known as the difference between turbulant and laminar flow.

[@facundoboms8955]

This was one of the best comments I've ever seen on YT. Unexpected but relevant to the subject of the video.

[@bluedragon7925]

But doesn't the beaver dam prevent flooding?🤔 The creek flooding = Bach proliferation. 🌊

[@SuonoReale]

I learned a lot from this one comment. I love that you connect the arts, linguistics, and the natural sciences so succinctly.

[@spanqueluv9er]

@@facundoboms8955You’re going to want to find some sort of standards, ffs.🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤡🤡🤡🙄

[@spanqueluv9er]

@Mikosch2 That is in no way an explanation of the difference between turbulent and laminar flow. I know you like to hear yourself talk about things that you have no clue about but it rarely works out. Jesus.🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤡🙄

[@EnoVarma]

I've been a proud Beliber for more than 300 years.

[@milanforever7014]

hahahahahahahahaahhahaahhaah

[@nikkeisimmer8795]

Yeah he was awesome on the trumpets. 🤣

[@handledav]

beliber

[@jaxthename]

Thought I recognised it.

[@ketahoer23]

Epic comment

[@jazzinrascal]

Loved the illustration of Schoenberg blushing..ha ha! This has just made my day. Any student who thinks old music is boring should give this a listen.

[@themusicprofessor]

That's so kind. Thank you!

[@ralphwortley1206]

My mother, an LRAM, was brought up largely on Beethoven and Schumann. A friend of mine, a music teacher, played a piano piece of Schoenberg's to her. He asked her what she thought of it. After a short pause, one word "Hateful." I've heard music being called many names, but thhis was the first time I heard "hateful"

[@jppitman1]

I also love the one with Mr.Bean fainting. Happy to see the music to this.

[@Limitsofclassicalmusic-g8q]

Schoenberg has left the chat

[@davidlicea9192]

I discover this piece a few years ago and I was so surprised 'cause of the politonality but also because in the 4th movement (I believe it is the 4th mov but can't remember quite accurately) he uses extended techniques, asking the bass players to put a piece of paper in between the strings for a particular sound, he was so innovarive, I love Biber

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. The use of extended techniques in the 4th movement is fascinating. Perhaps we will look at this at some point in the future.

[@kathyjohnson2043]

His Rosary Sonatas for violin are equally fascinating with unusual tunings including crossing 2 of the strings to represent the crucifixion.

[@howard5992]

@@kathyjohnson2043 that is a wonderful and haunting work ( . Decades ago when I first heard it there was only one recording available in the US, on the Vox label. Now there are numerous renditions.

[@talastra]

The thing about an era before it becomes ossified is precisely this kind of experimentation, that then seems to heretical to us later. Laurence Sterne's Tristram Shandy is the literary case in point.

[@BradHollowniczky]

One of my favorite composers. Wonderfully inventive baroque music with a rock-n-roll attitude. In the same piece he instructed the violone players to place a sheet of paper under their strings so that the vibration would give the illusion of snare drums being played in the distance.

[@WarrenPostma]

Imagine if you gave this lad effect pedals.

[@johnchessant3012]

an anecdote about the Bach family from Bach's biographer (I got this from the Wikipedia page on Goldberg Var.30): "As soon as they were assembled a chorale was first struck up. From this devout beginning they proceeded to jokes which were frequently in strong contrast. That is, they then sang popular songs partly of comic and also partly of indecent content, all mixed together on the spur of the moment. This kind of improvised harmonizing they called a Quodlibet, and not only could laugh over it quite whole-heartedly themselves, but also aroused just as hearty and irresistible laughter in all who heard them."

[@tptmh23]

The thing that blew me away the most was the last two chords. Absolutely stunning. I couldn’t help but start laughing because of how ridiculously awesome it was.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. They are beautiful.

[@saricubra2867]

1st final chord: Ebm7(add11). 2nd final chord: Ebm7b9(add11). And i would would all of that with C#maj7add9.

[@jazzjedi]

The tune you are highlighting is the "Bergamasca", a Renaissance Italian evergreen dance based on a repetitive I-IV-V harmonic pattern. Frescobaldi, Scheidt, Uccellini... and many others developed legendary renderings and variations of the theme. Both Biber and Bach chose to quote it for sure with full knowledge ^^ Enjoy Uccellini's :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZi1gGugjJ6lirc

[@themusicprofessor]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4q9aGx-n7WbaK8

[@Renshen1957]

The Bergamasca melody is used for the German folk song Kraut und Rueben, part of the Quodlibet in the 3oth Goldberg variations against Ich bin so lang g’wezt over the original bass melody. There’s a quote from the folk song as pointed out in a 1603 lute manuscript of Mein Junges Leben hat ein End’ which Sweelinck wrote his famous variations. The information was from an article from 2005 on the Bach Cantata website which goes into greater detail of the capstone nature of the Quodlibet and its references to earlier canons both in the use of Ich bin so lang so with a variant end, and also in the Cantata BWV 212 with a variant ending.

[@Renshen1957]

Forget to mention the Bach families would sing quolibets extempore at family gatherings for humorous effect. The two lyrics has cabbage and another vegetable (with inferred gas/flatulence) and the other lyric with the commanding come here, come here…

[@klegdixal3529]

@@Renshen1957 turnip.

[@Renshen1957]

​@@klegdixal3529 ​ @klegdixal Thank you for the translation. That's the translation I learned in my two years study of the German language. Currently, I do not have access to a 17th century or early 18th century German dictionary. After the controversy down under claim over the Anna Magdelena Bach's alleged composing the Violin Sonatas and additional claim of the "French" Suites for Harpsichord, (the French word now used composed was in JSB's time the word for copied), I now take the precaution to double check words from the time period. There's no doubt as to Kraut=cabbage (from my last contact with an 18th century dictionary), and yet a mid 20th century source on the Quolibet then "two songs" translated Kraut as Kale. Although all members of the Cabbage family are Brassica oleracea cultivars, and Rueben is turnip, I now, if I have time, take the precaution to double check with a then contemporary dictionary. The change of word or phrase meanings is fairly common in French Harpsichord music, the tempo indication Vivement for the the fifth piece in Francois Couperin "Ordre 6ème de clavecin" at that the time translates as "Deeply," however, current usage includes "strongly," "briskly," and also in comments of "can't wait." Consequently most Harpsichord (and piano) players speed through Les Barricades Mystérieuses. This piece is translated as The Mysterious Barricades, Barricades also refers to (music) chords. The 19th century publishers of Couperin's Harpsichord music (Friedrich Chrysander and Johannes Brahms also interpreted the title concluding piece of the Ordre (suite) as Gnat or Urchin, while the late Emirtus Professor of French at UCSB translated the title as fly. (The latter more appropos). in English, By and By as in modern usage as a noun is defined as future time or occassion. In the first century of the 17th century English, by and by meant immediately. The Merriam-Webster dictionary still list the 17th c. definition as an adverb, but vernacular usage in the 20th Century to present whether noun or adverb is understood as some undefined future occurence or event. Hence my reluctance to confirm turnip and left it as vegetable. Not having ever eaten turnips, I was unaware of their reputation of producing really foul-smelling farts!

[@willrobinson1229]

Drunk at midnight trying to finish that composition for His Excellency.

[@davidkarapetian6061]

Thank you for existing, been needing a channel like this

[@richsackett3423]

That is the funniest idea for a work. Musical humor seems timeless in its effectiveness.

[@buttclef]

Yes it's hilarious 🤣 totally agree

[@matthiasklein9608]

Back then the highlighted melody was sung with the text „Kraut und Rüben haben mich vertrieben, hätt‘ meine Mutter Fleisch gekocht so wär ich noch geblieben“. - „(Sauer)Kraut and beets drove me away. Had my mother cooked meat I should have stayed“ Bach ingeniously mixes it with another song that starts with „Ich bin schon lang nicht bei dir gewest“ - „I haven’t been with you since a long time“. So the contemporary would hear in his mind „I haven’t been with you since a long time - Kraut and beets drove me away“. Now „this looks like Kraut und Rüben“ is a colloquial term for „it’s a complete mess“. And all that appears when the original unmodified theme comes back. So Bach tongue-in-cheek calls his variations „Kraut und Rüben“.

[@schlussmitschiss]

Wow, this is amazing. I immediately thought I knew this simple tune but couldn’t remember. Kraut und Rüben - a big mess. Thanks for the clarification.

[@belialah]

424 years later I am shocked.

[@prometheusrex1]

Revelatory. Great work in bringing this gem to light.

[@miamonmiller3967]

This is really amazing... thank you so much

[@toothlesstoe]

This is why I think Biber was one of the best baroque composers. He was a modernist before it was cool.

[@davids.688]

But can you really be a modernist before your time? That’s like being a postmodernist in retrospect. Don’t get me wrong - I’m a belieber, I couldn’t lieber if I tried. Tip your server ... and try the veal!

[@geo1496]

this is absolutely my favorite baroque piece, and while a lot of it like the polytonality was for fun it actually sounds super awesome and sounds similar to composers a few hundred years later! there’s also bartok pizz and literally putting a piece of paper under the violone’s strings, among other neat techniques! biber also did some really cool stuff in other pieces, for example literally crossing the a and d strings behind the bridge and at the scroll in his Resurrection Sonata

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, the Battalia has other movements are equally spectacular. The Resurrection Sonata is extraordinary. He is a fascinating composer.

[@joshscores3360]

Silent Grass Step

[@shalamusic]

sounds he was micro-dosing on ergot. thx for the post.

[@le_roi_nu]

Vidéo très instructive et vraiment amusante aussi... Merci !

[@DC_Dusk_King]

You seem to have a keen interest in modern musical ideas such as Polytonality and Atonality; In his Harvard Norton Lectures, Leonard Bernstein talked about the "20th Century Crisis" and how in search of new ways to keep music fresh, looking for new "tonal ambiguities", music split in two: The Polytonality of Stravinsky and the Atonality of Schoenberg. As someone who obviously has knowledge of both, I think you might enjoy an exploration of this 20th Century Crisis.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, hopefully, as this channel continues, and with the support of our patrons, we will explore a whole range of topics like this

[@DC_Dusk_King]

@@themusicprofessor I cannot wait to see what happens! I'm not too big in the music spotlight at the moment, but I do know my Stravinsky, so if you ever want someone to talk to about it, I'd be more then happy to tell you what I know!

[@spicken]

Wonderful, thank you for bringing this to my attention. There is no need for the animations expressing distress about the cacophony, all the notes are in the right place.

[@Viktorvelat95]

This gives me Schnittke concerto grosso vibes, nice!

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes, indeed. In fact Schnittke was mentioned in an earlier video about Rebel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXmccpiVqdN0j8U and I think I recommended this Concerto Grosso: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKWqhX1slLB3aMU

[@Blazer__X]

What an excellent video! Instant subscription

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you!

[@TheAllstonians]

Biber is absolutely amazing.

[@yugandali]

Great music, wonderful commentary

[@jodyirwin1046]

Thank you! I love baroque but have never heard this type of composition.

[@zonimacabre]

We just did an Xmas concert at the orchestra and the finale was like 3/4? Carols mashed up and overbearing chorals singing something else. But at the end it all came together and played out beautifully!

[@WarrenPostma]

My favorite thing is that now i know you can call what you guys did a Quodlibet. Who drinketh, in latin.

[@Vortragskunst]

I think, Bach uses this subject for a very different reason. It is always said, that with this stupid "Kraut und Rüben" song he wanted to produce some comic effect. But in reality it is the subject of the famous La Capricciosa variations by Dietrich Buxtehude. This harpsicord work is in G major and has 32 movements, which is exactly the same number as in Bach's cyclus (Aria + 30 variantions + Aria da capo) and so the model and prototype for the Goldberg Variations. When Bach in the last variation quotes La Capricciosa, it is a just a tribute to Buxtehude, who was his beloved teacher.

[@sebastian-benedictflore]

Ahh man I just wrote this. You got there first.

[@MM.]

If you're not already aware of it, you might enjoy Farina's Capriccio Stravagante which dates back to 1627. Strings emulating cats meowing and dogs barking :)

[@otherkorean]

Adrian Belew does cats, rhinos, and elephants on his guitar.

[@callenclarke371]

Goodness gracious. Fantastic content! I have Biber's Rosary Sonatas, and a few other pieces, but I never knew about the Battaglia. Well done indeed!

[@javiermedina5313]

This would make even the most eccentric of contemporaries gnash their teeth. This music makes me think of when the orchestra starts to play and tune before the performance, as if the composer wanted to imitate that characteristic tumultuous effect. I think it makes sense, one of our first impressions with the orchestra, regardless of what era we are talking about, comes from when the performers are tuning up and warming up, it creates such an interesting effect that it immediately grabs our attention.

[@alexanderbrown1954]

I think the first chord you show right at the beginning of this excellent video is the opening of "Les éléments" by J-F Rebel.... non?

[@romanryvlin6946]

It's so fantastically interesting!)) Thanks a lot for publishing this!)) ,🙏🙏🙏❤

[@janicemahan4772]

I'm a violinist and I like this for two reasons: It's not difficult to play, and it keeps the listener awake!

[@janicemahan4772]

Sometimes one has to shake up the house!

[@TomJacobW]

*keeps the listener away fixed that for you 😁

[@janicemahan4772]

@@TomJacobW No, no, no, Tom! Awake! Hahaha...

[@cosainsegnarealmentelatorr4532]

Genius! IMAO he wanted to describe a company of drunken friends singing

[@uigliam]

At one point it feels like... listening to Charles Ives!

[@themusicprofessor]

It's a very similar effect. Ives also liked to take existing tunes and play them simultaneously in different keys

[@jonathanaul]

@@themusicprofessor Trying to think of an example where Ives used that many at the same time, and I'm drawing a blank. ::illustration of Charles Ives grinding his teeth in frustration::

[@RothBeyondTheGrave]

This is very far out. Glad I stumbled upon this. What fascinates me most about the Baroque era is the fact that many of the seeds for the Prog Rock and Extreme Metal I love were planted there. Hearing such dissonance on bowed strings rather than plucked strings is always fun.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. Interesting comment. I've always liked the fact that Handel's house in London was later occupied by Jimmy Hendrix!

[@maestroicarodecarvalho3947]

Aaah La Battaglia! One of my favorite tunes from the baroque! Its very interesting how he expressed many things associated with war, that arent only battles. He inspired this music in the 30 years war, that was still raging on in the year he was born, and would only end 4 years later. This movement in particular its said that it represents a military encampment, as there were many soldiers of different places that occasionally would sing their songs at night, resulting in this cacophony of many different tunes stacked one upon another.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. Yes, the connection with the 30 years war is fascinating. The impact of war upon artists is a topic that has come up in other short films on this channel, particularly these two about Ravel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qqSafGeveLVoqqs and kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2fSgKJunt-gr9E

[@unoriginal422]

1:01 when everyone starts singing happy birthday for u

[@raffaeleapicella2340]

When you think to be a composer after a half lesson of harmony

[@themusicprofessor]

Well I know what you mean but Biber was an expert harmonist.

[@raffaeleapicella2340]

@@themusicprofessor Just kidding ^^ , I didn't want to disrespect the composer, I Just react to what I listened and the impact of It on my ears

[@MrPino]

FINALLY someone talking about it!!!!!! I've been listening to that piece every now and then and I've always been amazed by that part... Anyway, the recording isn't Savall's one, it's from Voices of Music

[@themusicprofessor]

Oh yes, silly mistake. Duly amended.

[@annakey5841]

I’m not a musician or composer, but for me that was so exciting and interesting to watch. Music is a whole Universe. Thanks

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you.

[@user-pi7ye5pb2m]

Fantastic!!! Thank You very much!!!

[@g_hoenig]

Man, I love The Battle. You could say I have Biber Fever...

[@uigliam]

Your videos are interesting and intelligently made: short, so as not to bore; detailed on a few clear elements; open to new insights; with fun and tasteful graphics. ✨I congratulate you, Maestro.👍

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you very much.

[@francescaemc2]

cute! I've subscribed... Actually, I love dissonance in Bach. Love that you picked the phrase from Goldberg Variations. Gould always brings out the dissonance. Nice find.

[@daniellisauskas4726]

What a great video! All these dissonances and polyphony remind me of Antonio Lotti's Crucifixus...

[@Drewster58]

It is incredible, weirdly gorgeous and fantastic.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. Yes it is!

[@Drewster58]

@@jerryatrick6127 we’ll, yeah, but I was raised on Barton and Stravinsky, so there’s that.

[@Oswald_Anthony]

The best music never dies...

[@roybarger4179]

How would we know it it did?

[@anasalwash]

I was playing this in my car and I thought someone else was playing another classical music in their phone. But i was alone !!! I couldn't wait to go home and understand what the hell is wrong with this music.

[@crisess4717]

Gracias!

[@maniak1768]

Did you ever hear Giovanni Valentini's 'Enharmonic Sonata'? Then this is probably a good time to check it out.

[@themusicprofessor]

Very interesting suggestion.

[@gabrielroure7763]

Yes this music is really amazing!! I wanted to speak about this composer too!!

[@gabrielroure7763]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nH3RoWBnocyWapY 🔥🔥🔥🙈🙉🙊

[@ejb7969]

The entry of the 2nd and 3rd voices is the most Stravinsky-sounding thing I've ever heard that's not by Stravinsky. (Histoire du Soldat, specifically.)

[@themusicprofessor]

Bi-tonal folky fiddle sound - yes, I see what you mean!

[@HongminJiang]

this sounds like my youth orchestra warming up while my friend and i are sitting in the corner traumatised

[@alexandrebeauharnais6849]

Your videos are full of humor and very interesting😂❤🎉

[@amazingessence2368]

There's no doubt Mr. Biber had a good sense for anarchy.. like some childs singing their own fave song at the same time.. what a fun!😁

[@YMESYDT]

Just found your channel, please keep making these videos I'm a big fan!

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you!

[@101personal]

Great to hear. Thanks

[@Joey_Keys]

This might have made Schoenberg blush, but it would have made Charles Ives smile.

[@Nooticus]

Absolutely incredible!! So shocked I've never heard this before!! It's almost Ligeti/Penderecki-like...!!

[@dann234]

*"My ears!!!"*

[@bobbwc7011]

Whenver anybody mentions Bach, I have to think of this German joke: Eventually Mozart arrives in heaven. He sees an old man playing the pipe organ and asks the angel Metatron: "Who is that over there?" - the Metatron annoyed: "Uhm, well, this is God, he thinks he is Bach.".

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes - mind you, Bach had a high opinion of God! (e.g. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4XUZJqpr7Wmf7M)

[@soaringvulture]

@@themusicprofessor I'm sure it was shared. It probably still is.

[@darb.musica]

Wow, I didn't know this, amazing!

[@silver1788]

This last chord was actually incredibly beautiful in its own way

[@somchaisaelee328]

Even dizzier that Shostakovich.

[@sameash3153]

Its a famous melody, the words are "cabbage and beets drove me away; had my mother cooked meats I might have stayed"

[@agaphonus]

Damals gab es viele verschiedene Schlüssel. Beim Transkribieren der Notizen ist etwas durcheinander geraten.

[@jesuispretentieux]

Very interesting video so good job for that, but next time make the comment actually readable please

[@dirkkloffer2829]

In my opinion Mr. Biber was not interested introducing here a new technique of composition,he wanted to create confusion and maybe,make a little joke which he liked to do sometimes also in several other pieces.

[@princepsangelusmors]

That Dm/Em7 chord at the end really feels like Stravinsky.

[@sebastian-benedictflore]

Like the Sage at the end of the first Act of Rite of spring or maybe the introduction of the exalted sacrifice.

[@JoEbY-X]

Wow. Just recently I was studying that exact Goldberg variation and wondering where that melody came from!

[@justforever96]

It is interesting. And the opening and closing parts are really excellent.

[@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuru]

This comment will get no recognition but I just want to mention, Zelenka's "Amen" fugue that concludes his Miserere in D Minor, /Z. 56/ is equally insane, chromatically speaking.

[@themusicprofessor]

Yes. It's terrific. Zelenka is a marvellous composer.

[@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuru]

@@themusicprofessor Glad to find at least 1 person who agrees

[@arjay9745]

This is like something Charles Ives would have thought of.

[@markusboyd4834]

Really interesting ,thank you. Another baroque composer, this time from France, is also known for his musical 'innovations'. Check out his Les Elemens (kzbin.info/www/bejne/mp_Pknabo9GBfs0) which opens on a dissonant cluster chord, containing all the notes of the d harmonic minor scale. I believe Rebel was the first composer to set the biblical tale of creation to music, and no doubt contains of one of the few truly shocking opening measures up to that time. Contemporary attitudes of depicting chaos through music appear somewhat fearful that such 'experimentation' could herald an era of music that transcends the order, stability and idealism that dominated the time.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you. Yes, we made a video about this a couple of weeks ago: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXmccpiVqdN0j8U

[@KralArtus]

In my opinion came the atonality from some mistake - the atonal row could be writen e.g. in key for B-trumpet or something like that, and so the melody became other than Biber intended... But I am not sure, it is only my theory.

[@rnregan]

2:08 "kraut und rüben haben mich vertrieben"

[@omar_1880]

This composer is very underrated. We need to spread awareness.

[@kostaborojevic498]

No.

[@patrickmcelligott5646]

Wonderful work by Biber and you!

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you

[@patrickmcelligott5646]

@@themusicprofessor Thank you!

[@handavid6421]

meh, it's just an effect that the composers are employing. it's interesting and unique but has nothing to do with modern polytonality. like that picture from the 1930s where you can see a man dressed in today's fashion, we might notice it as something special but it really is merely one of many experiments done by baroque composers.

[@themusicprofessor]

We're not suggesting it's modernism, since any composer in any era can only be a composer of their time. Nevertheless, it is polytonal, and a fascinating experimental movement. There are equally striking effects later on in the suite. When Stravinsky described Beethoven's Grosse Fuga as 'contemporary forever' he seemed to imply that some music can innovate far beyond its time, and even beyond our own time.

[@handavid6421]

​@@themusicprofessor I guess I see it as an accident, not worthy any more than "hmm, interesting". it is an conceivable idea... some music is really forever however that's a completely different realm to simple tricks and effects. I don't think it was beyond our time, it was acceptable back then and was within the bounds of liberty that the composer can take, so it really was of that time, not beyond it.

[@captainhaddock6435]

@@handavid6421 You must be fun at parties

[@handavid6421]

@@captainhaddock6435 I apologize if I annoyed you

[@filmscorefreak]

there's always a "meh" comment to these unique and seemingly anachronistic examples. for me, i would wonder if composers in those days would maybe get bored and want to do something as "crazy" as this. and some of them apparently did! and this particular effect is very similar to what Charles Ives has done, and most people think of that as "modern".

[@vaughangarrick]

Charles Ives also had different bands playing at the same time imitating 2 marching bands passing one another down the street

[@egapnala65]

There's also the first movement of Jean-Fery Rebel's "Les Elements" as well. Puts Mozart's "Dissonance" quartet in its place.

[@themusicprofessor]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXmccpiVqdN0j8U

[@albrechtgaub2882]

I know both pieces, and I once had to write program notes for “Les élements”. Anyway, the approach of both Biber and Rebel has little to do with Schoenberg. Rather, they are forerunners of Charles Ives.

[@themobiusfunction]

I can listen to Schoenberg and other modern composers without any problems, but this is on a different level

[@bonzodachimp6897]

My hs orchestra director is really into baroque music and my orchestra played this piece at a concert. very cool to hear it being covered like this

[@ulugozkan9502]

I think during this epoche the composers did not write all alterations and let the musicians do it regarding to the deroulement of harmony by ear and experience. Gesualdo was born earlier than all those guys and advangarde too but his music is nice and never sounds so ugly, not at all...

[@percyvolnar8010]

Those last two chords at 1:27 said " You don't know me very well, do you? " in perhaps a most calm, yet foreboding way...

[@_robustus_]

The symphonic equivalent of banging on a piano like a child with his fists.

[@Tapioca674]

He got back to tonality Pretty Darn Quick.

[@BaldPerspective]

That is super intense; I can't believe someone got away writing something like that back then

[@Musicienne-DAB1995]

WOW! I've been in love with Biber's work ever since I first heard his Mystery Sonatas, but WOW! And Bach using that theme as well in his Goldberg Variations? Mind blown.

[@fstover5208]

Great post! There is a composer before Biber who likewise employed some rather far out harmonizations, but his name now escapes me. George Amirkhanian aired many of these works on KPFA in the 70s.

[@themusicprofessor]

Let me know if you remember!

[@howard5992]

@@themusicprofessor perhaps the reference was to Carlo Gesualdo ( 1566 -1613 ), known for his use of "advanced" chromaticism.

[@jodyirwin1046]

I’ve returned today to this clip…something eerily charming about it.

[@armandoladegas3964]

Very interesting, thank you.

[@haroldoakland3480]

Dissonance is in the ear of the professor.

[@petergaskin1811]

Go Heinrich Ignaz Franz Biber von Bibern!

[@mercoid]

Wonderful. Subscribed.

[@themusicprofessor]

Thank you so much!

[@samoinborut1339]

Hic dissonant ubique, nam enim sic diversis cantilenis clamore solent!

[@cncnaranjo85]

In December I performed it on second violins and the audience was neither prepared nor knew what they were going to hear, its dissonance and peculiarity. But it is a work to study beautifully...