Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | Ned and Ashara=Jon | New and Improved Edition

[@jameshughes7946]

I do like the idea of Ned and Catlyn, who are one of the happier marriages in ASOIAF are both haunted by their true loves (Brandon and Ashara) I'm 100% behind this theory

[@MusicalBasics]

I think N+A=J was the obvious choice in the fandom before R + L = J started being whispered. There's no point in talking about N+A=J at the time because that's what everyone thought. Then the exciting prospect of R+L=J floated around and because it was so interesting, everyone started talking about it and soon it became the predominant theory and everyone was like "OMG WHAT IF WHAT IF THAT WOULD BE SO COOL!!" (myself included lol). So obviously the show took that because the TV show's primary motivation is to get more viewers.... leading to that being canonized. N+A=J ppl are left on the sidelines thinking "uhhh... what the heck?" Nothing has come out since ADWD, yet the fandom itself conceived and evolved the idea of R+L=J.

[@Li_Tobler]

Funny that I came to the fandom when RLJ was already the predominant theory and find it one to be tiring, bland and yawn-inducing lmao

[@youknownothingjonsnow4821]

N+A=J Makes zero sense when you look at the timeline, in the companion books that elaborate it more, the war took almost a year, the incident at Harrenhall took months after Lyanna was either taken or ran away, which means that Jon would have been almost a year old by the end of the war. Not to mention that Ashara would have had to meet up with Ned during the war because what separates both Robb and Jon in ages is either a couple of weeks or months.

[@willowway3349]

​@@youknownothingjonsnow4821 if you watched the video they made on this theory before this a part 1 it actually explains the whole timeline you're talking about and how it does actually work and make more sense. Also, if GRRM really gave D&D one of the biggest plot points in the series just for them to literally butcher it, then he either doesn't gaf about how his story is meant to turn out(doubtful), or D&D guessed that plot point and he just went along with it, because it is technically lazy. That doesn't even begin to mention on how John doesn't have a single Targ feature, and in the books is constantly compared to Ned and how similar they look, not Lyanna. The only subtle comparison would be to Arya, but that doesn't negate how Ned's emotional reaction to Jon is similar to that of Ashara, not Lyanna. I think GRRM is a much better writer than a pretty lazy plot of "R+L=J" So he gets the iron throne, instead of Aegon who is currently with Ashara and looks, acts, and likely is the real true born child of R+L, it also adds a real conflict for Dany, not some odd switch up for John, he wouldn't take the Iron throne, it doesn't make sense for him to be the Targ that goes against Dany. Now all theories are fascinating, but if the book ending turns out like the show ending, I'd be pissed, it was a shit ending with no development whatsoever. And I'm not talking about Dany being a possible tyrant, that's already heavily implied.

[@spencerleen6806]

​@willowway3349 do the Strong boys have a single Targ feature?

[@gogozeppeli9267]

The moment you mentioned that ned had not thought of rhaegar in years when if jon is rhaegar's son , it would be a daily reminder to ned! Wow that sold me! Now i believe this theory ! 👏👏

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you

[@williamwhitfield6225]

I’m not really sure how that checks out, you could just argue that Ned doesn’t think about Ashara either. And it would be much stranger not to look at your son and never think of his mother who you once loved dearly. Ned wouldn’t think of Rhaeger, because he didn’t know Rhaeger. And he’s raised Jon, whether Ned is his father or not Ned looks at Jon like his son. Not saying there’s not valid points to this theory, just saying this isn’t one of them.

[@mrkash9060]

@@williamwhitfield6225 he does think of her whenever somebody bring her up he get angry

[@williamwhitfield6225]

@@mrkash9060 That’s a big negative my friend, he gets angry because of the rumors about him and Ashara. Remember in those rumors he supposedly knocked her up and then when the war ended took the child from her causing her to fall into grief and commit suicide.wouldn’t imagine that Ned liked hearing about that rumor.

[@crazyscotsman9327]

@@williamwhitfield6225 But there is no way it's true. There is no way that the Lord Dayne would name or nickname his son Ned, if Ned Stark was the cause of both his brother's death and his sister's suicide and disgrace. Sure Ned can get upset about people believing the lie, but there is no way it'd be true. But it is absolutely impossible for Jon to be Lyanna's kid. The timeline doesn't add up, one he's older then Rob. Two he's 8-9 months older then Dany who was conceived when her mother and brother fled King's Landing after the defeat of Rhaegar at the Trident. Three, Ned couldn't have gotten from King's Landing to Dorne in less then a month's time not with the other stuff he had to do. And as Lyanna was found in a bed of blood, it means she had just given birth. So no Jon is too old to be Lyanna's.

[@uilliamunknown4844]

Not to mention people miss the context clue in that infamous HBO question “who is Jon’s mother?” By GRRM asking them who Jon’s mother is, obviously means that Ned is Jon’s father, otherwise he would asked “who are Jon’s parents?” GRRM is cunning like that, making something complicated, “seem” simple. As GRRM said himself “the devil is in the details.” GRRM probably smiled because they, like many others, got it wrong. Like he also said, his novels are impossible to adapt for television.

[@silasreade]

I love the fact that George also never confirmed their answer was correct. He just heard their answer and let them take the show. Why would he let them reveal one of the biggest mysteries of his story?

[@WilliamSt.Clair1399]

Wouldn’t that question be even more impactful and showing his cunning if he asked the wrong question purposefully as well?

[@schmalzilla1985]

I don't think he would want to hint outside the books that not only is Jon's mother's identity, is in question, but also his father. I think he would ask the question Jon has wondered all his life. This doesn't confirm anything that we still have questions about.

[@striker8961]

Brings back to the sea lords question of Serio, perceptiveness of the obvious but just being confused by the man asking the question

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

​@@striker8961ahhhh another good point

[@g.m.5789]

I knew that R+L=J couldn't hold a candle to N+A=J when i went back to the first book ans found Cersei's quote about Jon. Cersei, the woman who had been so madly in love with Raeghar since childhood so that she would even draw sketches of her and her Targaryen prince riding dragons, thinking of his face instead of Jaimie's whenever she slept with Robert, and even go as far as glimpsing resemblances between Raeghar and the Velaryon's bastard Aurene Waters on account his silver hair, but spotting no likeness at all between Raeghar and his supposed son, Jon? Had Jon been truly Raeghar's son, Cersei would have noticed instantly.

[@louisekenway3455]

Wasn't it also described by some folks in the books that of all Ned's kids, it's Jon who look like him the most

[@Some_guy_passing_by]

That's just genetics though ...

[@ItsRyanDunn]

Also, we know how talented Jon is with a sword, which could point to him having the blood of Dayne coursing through his veins. Ser Arthur Dayne was arguably one of the best swordsmen in Westeros.

[@silasreade]

Also to become the Sword of the Morning and wielding Dawn if he’s a Dayne since his story is pointing toward fighting the White Walkers. .

[@bmsontheimer]

It makes sense jon is a powerful warg... both parents are families of the first men... parents married in front of a wierwood tree at the wolves den

[@MusicalBasics]

Basically what happened to GOT is akin to this happening in Harry Potter: Harry Potter books: exist Fans: "OMG wouldn't it be crazy if it turns out that Snape is actually Harry's dad?" Warner Brothers: "That's an awesome idea! Let's put it into the movie and make it canon!" Order of the Green Hand: HP Theories | James + Lily = Harry

[@alf7797]

lmaooo exactly!!

[@sparticuzj19]

The movie never claimed snape as Harry’s father, it was rushed which is why some people thought so.

[@MeanMrMustrd]

I always think that when D and D guessed Lyanna, GRR Martin giggled to himself and pulled a Littlefinger.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Absolutely agree and it's much more in line with GRRM

[@Addam_]

I always found it super weird that George would expose one of the biggest secrets in such a way, unless and I'm sorry to go there, he didn't think he would ever get to that part of the books.

[@readysetmood9473]

since the show deviated so much already that the twist won't make sense anymore. I guess GRRM made them believe or at least give them the freedom to write whatever they eant since they csn anyway

[@Nunya_Argo79]

Also, that he doesn't see the TV show as part of his book series, should tell people all they need to know. I mean look at how Arya defeated the Night King (something we're not even sure exists in the books).

[@Abriel87]

Well, this theory surely makes more sense then R+L. The TV show needed a quick and dirty solution to the mystery of Jon's parentage. And let's be honest here, R+L is quite simplistic and far too fairytale happily ever after. The bastard is the hidden heir to the near-extinct ancient royal family... that is more a Disney plot than what GRRM usually presents in his books. Ned's doomed love for Ashara and the true heir living as a bastard on the other hand, now that fits far better with GRRM's usual way of storytelling. Let's see what answers and new questions the next book will bring...

[@alicelaybourne1620]

To be fair, this theory has the exact same underpinnings. under this theory Jon is the "True King of the North" and rightful heir. He still goes from bastard to King, and he already has been given special skills and abilities, so perhaps there is a touch of Disney in GRRM. Either way the bastard becomes a "rightful king".

[@Abriel87]

Keep in mind that the whole King in the North plot only restarted with Robb. By the time Jon was born and pushed aside as a bastard, the birthright that had been denied to him had "only" been the lordship of Winterfell. The kingdom of the North has not been a thing for centuries and after such a long time it is not exactly a Stark birthright to rule as kings any longer. So the rightful part when he becomes King of the North is debateble. And it is not exactly a fact in the books that Jon will really take Robb's crown and become king. Robb just named Jon his heir. He might just as well join up with Aegon and return to the status quo that had existed for centuries before.

[@MrVonFrom]

How does Jon go from Bastard to heir just because he has a new mother? He is still a bastard, unless Ned and Ashara got married in secret, but if that happened did Ned have two wifes? Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya are still ahead of him in the line of succession and is he such a a-hole that he'll try and usurp his own siblings that he has grown up with? Maybe he is, would be very un-Disney if Jon kills Bran, Rickon and forces Arya or Sansa to marry him(for legitimacy you know), not very un-GRRM though... we don't know much about the Old Gods stance on polygamy, but the Seven is against it. And i can't recall any northerners with two wifes. And even if Ned was married to Ashara first and then Cat, thus making Jon first in line, that doesn't secure him the North(kingdoms or Lordship), succession is a mess, can he prove any of this? who is his supporters?

[@Abriel87]

The question is whether or not Ned had married Ashara first. Unless he had that marriage annulled, his marriage to Catelyn would have been illegal and the children from that marriage would be bastards. And so far there hasn't been a single case of an Old God ruler with more than one wife. Maybe it's possible, maybe it isn't. But as long as we don't see a polygamous marriage or hear about it, it should be considered illegal. And the Faith in the South explicitly forbids to have more than one wife at once, so to them, the second marriage would be void. One could argue that the High Septon on his fellows don't care about the Old Gods and say that all marriages in the North mean nothing but that would cause more trouble with the North than its worth.

[@nickdentoom1173]

D&D could make the show because they guessed who Jons mother was, its Lyanna.

[@stayla6062]

I'm all in with this theory - the hidden love story between Ned & Ashara makes more sense - otherwise, why so many mentions of Ashara & her brother Arthur? My only addition to the conversation is that family resemblance can be strange. I am from a family where red hair is common though I have blonde hair. My middle daughter strongly resembles my grandmother, and looks much more like my brother's child than my own. They share the same red hair, pale blue eyes and freckle prone skin. My red headed brother had two brown haired kids, while two out of three of my kids are red headed. Genetics!

[@jacobenke7936]

Ashara's name should never come up if there isn't something there, you are absolutely right about that. One thing we do know about ASoIaF genetic is that it doesn't work exactly like ours. The Valyrians wed brother to sister on the regular for political reasons (keep dragons in the family). It stands to reason they should have resembled the Spanish Habsburgs 4500 years ago.

[@Beandipforyou]

Honestly, N+A is simply a better story, You're right, it's in the symbolism. Jon is a wolf.

[@alicelaybourne1620]

so was Lyanna. Arya looks just like her... and Jon and Arya look alike...just saying both theories are still on the table

[@Beandipforyou]

Alice Laybourne I'd say making Jon a Targaryan doesn't make sense. And you know as well as I that the name of the father matters more than the mother esspecially if they were married so even in the R+L theory Lyanna is a dragon not a wolf. So the symbolism still doesn't carry over. He's the white wolf, the king in the north, the watcher on the wall. A white wolf not a dragon. I think that quote at the end explains it best.

[@allyriastark3508]

Alice Laybourne Arya doesn't look like Lyanna. Beautiful enough to start a war vs Arya horse face? Plus Arya acts like Lyanna because they both have wolf blood.

[@ScorpioTear]

Woohyun Fan she was never described as beautiful. I think you're confusing her with Helen of Troy. This is from the Game of Thrones Wiki In the A Song of Ice and Fire novels, Lyanna does appear, albeit only in flashbacks and visions. She is described as intelligent, tomboyish and willful, frequently compared to her niece Arya in terms of temperament and appearance.

[@ScorpioTear]

Woohyun Fan and maybe Ned is using Ashara as a smoke screen. A cover.

[@chrismccloskey2502]

I always thought the R+L=J was too easy of a solution. You guys are on point. Loving your work.

[@guesswho1047]

"Ned....you ARE the father!"

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

That is so hilarious!! Meme coming soon.

[@arthas7]

I am on this N+A=J ship from the start (for the books). Because that way even if Jon and Dany coming together would be okay

[@RewindThatwithMsKay]

I like this idea too, especially because the R+L=J theory is pointless if Jon isn't gonna sit the iron throne. I'd much rather him be Ned's son anyway. I like him more as a Stark.

[@armyofninjas9055]

They'd still be cousins though...

[@arthas7]

@@RewindThatwithMsKay Totally agree

[@arthas7]

@@armyofninjas9055 both targaryans as well as starks have cousin marriage precedent

[@geoffwilliams6072]

@@armyofninjas9055 Charles Darwin, Albert Einsten, Edgar Allen poe, HG Wells and Tywin Lanniester all married their cousins. Messed up imo tho

[@lyha7797]

I just read a thread where this person asks why R+L=J theorists disregard Ned Dayne mentioning to Arya that Wylla was Jon's mother and something occurred to me. We know that Ned simply says Jon's mother's name was Wylla to Robert but doesn't give anymore than that which then begs the question did Ned Dayne's father and Ned come up with the idea to tell those who inquired about Jon's mother that Wylla was his mother just to keep them from inquiring further? Since it's clear someone in Ned Dayne's family had to have told him that she was Jon's mother otherwise how would he know. I just thought it was interesting that he would think that Wylla was Jon's mother and be so unfaltering in his belief that he was shocked to learn Jon had never told Arya about his own mother.

[@HDnursepractitioner]

I can’t see how this isn’t true. I think the people believing R +L = J, just want Jon to be a Targaryen. But I don’t see how that fits him. Clearly he can be the hero by being the sword of the morning, he doesn’t need a dragon. If Ashara was not Jon’s Mother, why doesn’t Ned deny it, instead forbidding anyone to speak of her? Another thing that I noticed is when Catelyn is being a total bitch to Jon when he is saying goodbye to Bran, Ned hears but ignores it. If Jon wasn’t his, he would probably put Catelyn at ease and reduce her envy somehow. Instead he feels guilty and probably pity for Catelyn, so he leaves it alone. If Jon were his nephew, he could reassure Catelyn there is nothing to be upset about. He doesn’t love Jon more or secretly wish he was able to be with Jon’s Mother. But he does feel that way, so he must cover it up. Catelyn feels this and her feelings feed her envy.

[@christopherbrewer222]

You have me 100 percent convinced that Jon is Ned's son. When I read the books I guess I just took Jon as Rhaegar's son because he was already widely excepted to be his son. Now that you opened my eyes to the evidence, there is absolutely no downt in my mind that Jon is Ned's son.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

Yeah... but what really brings this home is Tywin saying because Rob is Ned's son... he KNEW that if Robb was to fall in love with Jeyne that he would marry her... Tywin must know something about Ned that isn't common knowledge. Especially in light of the fact that Ned AND Jon were a bit vulnerable to being "comforted" after hearing of the death of 2 close family members. It's so alike... Ned must have been married to Ashara... and then had to choose between love and duty - and chose duty... just as Jon eventually did when he was offered just about all of his heart's desire - Winterfell, a beautiful bride, and end to his bastardy...

[@marcllewellyn854]

Ned hadn't thought about Rhaegar in years.... One of the biggest reasons I never fully bought R+L=J. This never made sense to me for the exact reasons you said. He literally sees Jon every day. If he was Rhaegar's son, how would you NOT think about him. I feel like Ashara has to play a part in this story. Septa Lemore (Ashara?)and FAegon make even more sense after this video. I hope your right

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

It would be impossible not to think of Rhaegar if Jon was his son...He sees Jon every single day

[@cronic1866]

I cant wait for GRRM to finish the darn books and put a end to it. I am still not 100% on the N+A=J but nore am I fully on the R+L=J. GRRM made it very clear in the books that Ned loves his children. His best friend is the King. Why would he hide who is mother is if she is a Dayne?. Why would he let his son grow up a bastard? A horrible life and why not send him to Starfall when he seen how Cat treated him?. What Ned did dont sound like a loving father when it comes to Jon.

[@vringi3725]

Maybe Jon's mother is a fisherman daughter whose name is Wylla

[@jacobenke7936]

I have a problem with it if Lemore is Ashara, kind of. Unless she was drinking the prophecy koolaid, then it's understandable. It makes her pursuit of Ned a bit... questionable, though. I also don't understand why Ned "had to" marry Cat. Jon A./Lysa should have been enough for the alliance, or Robert/Cat would have worked as well. Lyanna had been (they thought) kidnapped and raped. Did they truly expect her to just marry Robert coming out the end of that tunnel? If so Ned has no right to call her his sister. People talk a lot about the crimes of the Targaryens, but I see quite a few there, myself. And a whole lot of greed. Almost like the marriage to Cersei had been arranged already contingent on rebel victory over Rhaegar. (hence the no parlay on the trident to clear the air) The rebellion was planned folks, it was planned before Duskendal, when Aerys truly went mad. He was no worse than any other lord in Westeros before that.

[@hamiltonrhys9277]

@@jacobenke7936 Ned Had to marry Cat as he is the Second Son of Rickard Stark, Rickard signed a deal with Hoster Tully that would have Cat marry Brandon, thus making her the Lady of Winterfell. With Brandon dead, Ned being the Second Son was honour-bound to fulfill the agreement, and I doubt that Hoster would join the Rebels or atleast to the extent that he did if he losses the chance of his Blood being added to that of another Great House.

[@HebrewsElevenTwentyFive]

18:04 - 21:14 absolutely sealed the deal for me. Had to watch the video again (It's been a few months but man this video is perfect.)

[@buttchecks248]

I hope you both are right that N+A=J. However I do think, even if Jon is Lyana’s son that he is still a Stark. As you said he is Stark-like in every way and no Targaryen ever did anything for him but like in Dorne it would show that an heir can follow their mother’s family instead of their father’s.

[@LoneWolf-xe6ye]

Some more evidence for this is that in the book's ned did not want jon to go to the nights watch. While in the show ned was like meh? Problably for the best

[@gogozeppeli9267]

I mean he wanted to take him to king landing where jon would have died for sure....

[@andreasilk8201]

Thanks again you guys! I really feel that your videos about the asoiaf books are the most creative out of all my asoiaf subscriptions, like I said before I can't wait to get winds of winter, and see if there are any clues to support your theories there! And of you guys are right about any of it, I hope you get credit because the other channels are steadfast in their assertions of r + l = j and I would love to see them all acknowledge that we heard the truth from the order of the green hand first!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

that would certainly be something...I doubt it will happen...I actually worry about George if we're right...people flip out on us for saying we think N+A=J...I can only imagine what they will do to him if he says N+A does =J

[@lwandilemsiza8027]

The Order of the Green Hand They gonna say that George ruined the story by "changing" the outcome. Whilst they have been ignoring glaring facts and focusing on metaphors. #PrayForGeorge He has an army of NAJ supporters we'll protect him 🙏🙏

[@eragonshurtugal4239]

well hbo has alraedy comformt and yes they could have changed that from the books for exemple to give jon aegons storyline but it real would be a big charakter change, i also would say that george calling jon a sibling to the stark children in an interview from 2003 doesnt mean a lot becouse evrthink alse would be an big spoiler

[@Snakie747]

I always felt that Jon's warging abilities in the book implicitly tie him to Bran and Arya as siblings (probably Robb too, we just never get direct confirmation of his warging abilities I that I recall). It's not absolute proof or anything like that as we obviously see other wargs in the books who aren't immediate family members, but yeah, it's one of those things that really seems to fit with the idea that they're siblings, not cousins. The show didn't have to worry about that since they ignore everyone's warging abilities except Bran.

[@0rganicMeel]

“Your bastard brother has all of your father’s graces, it seems.” -Tyrion before Robb in the great hall

[@jorenvanderark3567]

It will be amusing to see the mental breakdowns of R+L=J believers once the next book comes out.

[@conkerthesquirrel8980]

Or the mental breakdown of this channel when the next book comes out. Either way it's going to be entertaining.

[@dccalling5960]

For that the book would need to come out

[@gogozeppeli9267]

@@dccalling5960 in betting it will be out when the show ends! Thats a smart business move by george and his editors....

[@nickdentoom1173]

@@conkerthesquirrel8980 Its gonna be this channel, since the book timeline already completely destroys this theory.

[@callumwebb4927]

@@conkerthesquirrel8980 Or the final books never come out and the divide between the N + A and R + L factions becomes the biggest schism since the Protestant Reformation and the Shia/Sunni divide

[@meganfinch711]

When I was rereading Bran 1 recently I took note of the part where Ned "regards Jon thoughtfully" and then Robb rushes into the silence he left. Seemed like it could be significant because of the way it's written. Ned thinking about Jon and is interrupted by Robb.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thats exactly what we thought when we read it...it was like all he was capable of doing in that moment was staring at him deep in some sort of thought that I would kill to be in his head for

[@meganfinch711]

The Order of the Green Hand yes! And then Robb "rushed in" like maybe when Ned had Jon he was regarding his choices thoughtfully and then Robb (or Robert) rushed in and fucked everything up. Lol I really hope Jon is Neds only true born son.

[@savanahwulff6263]

Late to the party, but I always thought it 'being confirmed in the show' was to try and include a little Aegon plot and create a Targaryen claimant to the throne. Like Gendry taking Edric Storm's plot.

[@malmorbidus2788]

*when you watch so many Greenhand videos your 6 year old names her characters in games things like 'Seastar' and 'Lightbringer'*

[@jjvoity7797]

I can't watch the tv show with my kids for the nudity/sex scenes. It sucks, as my son loves what bits and pieces of the show that he's watched.

[@malmorbidus2788]

JJ Volty same for my daughter I've read her bits and pieces of the history, too. She eats up the dragon lore haha

[@rogerfvb]

So... "Patrick" and "Lucifer"?

[@Richard_Nickerson]

@@jjvoity7797 How old is your son and how good is your grip on the internet? If he likes what he's seen, chances are he's seen more than you know.

[@jjvoity7797]

@@Richard_Nickerson He's only ten, I know where you'er going with this and this'll likely be a coming problem in the near future but when he borrows the phone now, I'm pretty dang sure all he's using it for is playing games.

[@hillzilla685]

I'm preaching the N+A=J gospel to all my heathen friends and family. Love you guys! Keep up all the amazing work!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

preach brother

[@alysaneblackwood]

Thank you so much for redoing this series. I always refer people to you when this theory is brought up. I could never fully buy into the R+L=J theory so finding this last year was like the light of the seven shining down upon the truth. Your videos are always so detailed and the analysis so indepth, they are easy to follow and very convincing. My daughter and I love everything Westeros and you bring their histories to life for us with beautiful clarity. P.S. The the little quips you put in when discussing the text always tickles us.

[@MartinSicilia-hl1oi]

I hope this theory is correct, I never considered R+L=J for the reasons you put forth and how bloody lucky would Ned have to be to try to pass Rhaegar's son (supposedly Jon) as his and that son to grow up to look just like Ned. come on!!

[@annamariatassone7904]

I always went for the R+L=J theory, because it never really made sense to me that Jon wouldn't have any connection to Lyanna. However this exchange of Lyanna's and Ashara's babies makes so much sense. There are many references of Ned protecting Lyanna's son, but there are also many others of Jon being Ned's son. This theory combines the two things perfectly

[@jacobenke7936]

I do have a small problem with it. Ashara really gave up her own child to raise the product of an irresponsible daliance in secret? I think it far more likely she'd be pissed as hell at R&L. Also, Ned refusing to tell Jon is an act of supreme cowardice if this is the case, and it makes Jon going to the Wall so much more pointless.

[@s_mores]

I must admit, I am not a fan of this theory, but the evidence is so damn overwhelming that I have to admit, it is one of the best.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you

[@Rohinthas]

Only found this channel now (through your collab with Quinn's Ideas on Lovecraft-lore in ASOIAF, great video too btw): this is probably the single most mind-blowing fan-theory video regarding ASOIAF I've seen so far! How the hell did I just accept R+L=J for 7+ years as a given and never considered that there is a NED Dayne and that Jon never once shows even a single Targ-attribute, while there is an actual, obvious Targ who dyes his hair blue to remember... his MARTELL mother?!? It all lines up so beautifully with Martin's "echoing" concept of history/heritage and how Ned's story is also 'just' a story of the human heart in conflict with itself rather than the perfect honorable man he is made out to be by R+L=J. It would also be hilarious if the story that has become synonymous with "plot-twists that seem inevitable in hindsight" blows our minds one more time by hiding the fact that the most popular fan-theory is far too simple in such plain sight. Like you said, we have been told since the very first chapter and with each book Martin introduced more and more conflicting information that most of us have been willing to ignore just so we can tell ourselves that we figured at least this one out beforehand. I absolutely can't wait to get my hands on TWOW and see where Martin goes with this, thanks so much for this new-found inspiration, the writing and your analysis of it is truly something to behold! Looking forward to work my way through your videos!

[@ERHawk]

You know something else I just noticed on my recent reread. GRRM repeats the baby swap plan in both a Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, first from Sam’s POV and then from Jon’s. I thought it unusual the first time I read the books, then the second time the damage was done from the show and all the online theories of R + L= J but now I can’t help but feel like he was emphasizing how important this was and wanted people to really think about it

[@that_vivian]

Hmmm this is very interesting and makes me think of Jon's recurring crypt dreams, with him crying out that it's not his place cos he's a Snow. I've always thought he was correct, but the reason being that he's a Targaryen. What a twist if we were both wrong and it's 100% his place as he's a legitimate Stark.

[@johnathankinne3998]

Ashara also probably took over Arthur's oath to protect Aegon freeing him to pursue current endeavors.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

I suddenly get the urge to review all of the dialogue between Tyrian and Septa Lemore... trying to determine if Tyrian ever mentions having met Jon Snow and what Lemore's response was. Also, if Cersei knows Ned took Ashara's baby, then Tywin knows this too... and may, perhaps, have knowledge that Ned and Ashara had a secret marriage.... which makes his comment that Robb is Ned's son very appropriate. How did Tywin know this I wonder?

[@joshmo141x]

For me, having an answer to "Ned never calls Jon his 'son' but only his 'blood'" was huge...I noticed that on the first read AND watch and it was exactly that which got me thinking about what IS up w Jon's mother...? Kudos for starting out with that

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you

[@DJH2452]

Okay so it’s not really a full explanation I have, but I had to look into it. So the name ‘Wylla’ is also an Old English name which had two meanings. The first is ‘’a spring’’, and the second is ‘’a well’’ (water source). Could this also be some form of hint towards Ashara Dayne, didn’t she meet Ned in the year of the false spring?, and the idea of the water source could kinda be a symbolism towards the Dornish, many of whom are descended from the Rhoynar who worshiped water deities. (Although I don’t think the Daynes are descended from the Rhoynar). It’s just a thought I had, I’m not as good with theories lol 😅

[@sambritton5790]

Ashara is a total fox. Goddamn, smokin'. Oh, yeah. Great video too, guys.

[@elsastark2351]

I’ve been made fun of for believing the books will be different. Your videos vindicate me! Lol great work guys. Clearly it took lots of it to craft these vids. Exceedingly well done!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you Elsa

[@HoofHearted88]

I was so annoyed when the tv show had someone say Jon doesn't look like Ned. It's what we've been told in the books a lot. Love these videos, great job on these!

[@alicelaybourne1620]

That totally pissed me off. It completely pulled me out of the scene. AND unnecessary. Arya, Jon, Ned and Lyanna are supposed to look alike. There was literally no reason for that shit.

[@allyriastark3508]

Beric Dondarrion with his one eye. Plus Beric doesn't know about R+L or Lyanna, he thinks Ned is Jon's father like everyone. For him to say Jon looks more like his mother only works with NAJ too since Beric is bethored to Allyria Dayne. So he can somehow see features of Allyria in Jon and since Ashara is said to be older sister of Allyria - he aslo to thinks Jon is Ned and Ashara's son. That's the only way that scene makes sense.

[@kragary]

Really? I think it would be a bit weird if everyone in the show kept saying Kit looks like Sean Bean when, you know, he doesn't. At all.

[@HoofHearted88]

That same show tells us Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Lena Headey are twins. It's not about the actors. The characters look alike.

[@logansmith2703]

allyria stark Beric can't even remember his wife by that point.

[@i_watson]

Best yet. The only "theory" I support and I refuse the R+L=J that has been pushed on us.

[@jonstark153]

Yeah really bt the only thing that confuses me is danys vision in the house of the undying

[@rorydavis5073]

Thanks for the love on my previous comment. This has always been the best theory. Now some results of it: If Lemore is Ashara, she is now in Westeros with Aegon. Jon gets to meet his mother that has much info for him. Jon learns he was never a bastard. Jon learns he is true heir to Winterfell. All his dreams come true, literally. Other predictions assuming this theory: Aegon dies gallantly saving humanity as he has been raised to be a great leader. Dany becomes real Targ heir. Jon and Dany still hook up for Ice and Fire without ickiness of the whole aunt-nephew incest. They are the central characters. You know they’re getting together. Why would GRRM plan an incestuous angle to it from the get-go. He wouldn’t. Your theories also have too many in-world historical parallels to do in this post. Any mention of these things is immediately shot down in harsh terms on Reddit. Keep the hope alive for a better story than the show has delivered, and an awesome reveal for book readers that will be an awesome GRRM twist on the closed-minded people that have been buying his unsubtle pushes toward R+L=J since 1996. No way he made it that obvious for that long, and with all the problems it causes, and with all the other characters it renders meaningless wastes of time in the overall story.

[@gogozeppeli9267]

How would she meet him? Hes dead right now and at the wall....when he comes back to life will everyone in the realm hears about it or will everyone just hear about his death and not the revival? And her(a woman) going alone to the wall is dangerous too....

[@My4SonsrAwesome]

.....GRRM couldn't have put this together any better. Blew my mind away. Thank you both for putting up an extremely well researched perspective. Cheers

[@champagne7530]

Maybe the reason Ned yells at Cat to never ask him about Jons mother is because he still carries a torch for Ashara, and is still somewhat bitter about having to settle for second best Catelyn.

[@bedwenchingwithbenifits4553]

Shevaun Morvan or maybe Jon is a Targaryen and if anyone finds out he’d be killed. Ashara isn’t an impressive character so why keep her a secret?!?

[@jacobenke7936]

@@bedwenchingwithbenifits4553 If Jon is revealed as Ashara's son, the Tullys will kill him. It would start a war. The theory posits that Ned and Ashara were married. Ned told everyone this at Riverrun during the negotiations, but was eventually forced to marry Cat anyway. Brynden Tully was there, and refused to set foot in Riverrun after the wedding until Hoster was dying. Yeah, it's pretty suspect. It's explained pretty clearly that Jon can not physically be the baby born at the Tower of Joy. It leaves but one possibility. All of that said, Ned was still kind of a coward for the way he handled Jon's situation, and having more than one kid with Catelyn is cruel if the secret were ever made known.

[@kylelouer4323]

Literally just layer down in bed and was damn I wish I had a new video from the green hand.. and my prayers were answered..7 minutes later lol.. thank you guys for the epic work

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

we aim to please

[@danedupont986]

N+A=J will never die. Great work you 2.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you Dane

[@Zhohan-]

It's just such a good theory and it's just as plausible as L+R=J

[@alicelaybourne1620]

Well to be fair, if GRRM finishes the stories before he dies, this theory most definitely can (like most theories) die. So could R+L=J.

[@LoneWolf-xe6ye]

Dane Dupont of course it wont because the books will never be finished.

[@ClaireYunFarronXIII]

@@Zhohan- It isn't as plausible. R+L=J makes little to no sense.

[@stefiz]

N+A is so blatant! Thanks so much for snarky analysis! Love you guys!

[@stevesallay2524]

As I stated before, this was always my favorite of your videos. Thank you for the updated version. You guys are killing it! Well done!

[@deecylewis6848]

Jon snow is Jon Stark and the son of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne and a male line descendant of House Stark and female line descendant of House Dayne and the most direct descendant of Garth Green hand through both of his parents' bloodlines the kings of the north and the kings of the torrentine that is awesome and I love this theory and I hope it's true in the books

[@brucewaite3733]

You're giving us more?! You guys are the best.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We do what we can

[@stephski2274]

❤️❤️❤️ best couple ever eh! The order of the green hand in the wolfs den!!

[@brucewaite3733]

In your opinions, why do you think Ned never got Jon legitimized? Could the scowling face of Catelyn Tully be that powerful, or is something else amiss?

[@njmoore8504]

lolll i thought the order wrote this comment. i was so happy they made this video then got sloppy drunk and went commenting on a friday night....sigh

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Bruce...I think it didn't matter until they were older, and he maintained the status quo to keep the peace in his life

[@indivisiblebyzero1]

gotta say- y'all are 100% My favorite addition to the ASOIAF theory community, totally made me do a re-read (well i did audio version) , and as much as it frustrates me: Hell-fire and Damnation!!! - i really think you guys are right about N+A=J... i applaud you two for pointing this out, and at the same time- Damn Y'all...now i have to do some real hardcore nitpicking re-reads ... but much love for this ...

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you indivisiblebyzero1

[@indivisiblebyzero1]

you are very welcome- i just speak truth- i kinda love you guys, and hate you in the same breath- y'all make me think a great deal- and it is the best kind of frustrating, how you make me re-think my re-reads... much love

[@sandmanenters4187]

I'm sold. There's multiple lines of evidence converging for this. Fits the overarching theme perfectly. Ice and Fire. Ned and Ashara (who is most likely of Valyrian decent). You've already convinced me that Dawn is Lightbringer, now I need to find out how it came I to Stannis's possession. Great job guys.

[@jonstark153]

What came into stannis possession? That's jst a stupid magic stick

[@ocky88]

I suppose I read these passages differently. I figured Ned associated Jon with Catelyn's question because the rumor of her being Jon's mother was the gossip at the time and the obvious reason Cat would ask. It seems right that Ned would get bristly about a major lie that could sully the rep of a girl he cared about. Same applies to his exhanges with Cersei and Robert. Seems like Ned simply wants everyone to drop it because he hates lying. The naming of Ned Dayne is very compelling, though. I will be curious to see how it turns out, because either option for Jon's mom works for me.

[@ocky88]

Holy crap. Just got to the parallel with Jon, Mance, and Gilly's baby. That is VERY compelling.

[@brucewaite3733]

I had this epiphany that i want to share with you guys, because if true; it would IMO, answer the question as to why Ned never said anythinng to Jon. It would illuminate and expand the scope of his moods and reactions that intersect with Ashara. It may alter some of your suppositions...but not much. However, this would take the thematic spot light away from R+L. This is it in a nutshell: Ned Stark did not take Jon from Ashara Dayne, Ashara gave Jon up to Ned. Here's the thematic drama and all the feels: Ned gave up the family he could've had with Ashara, in order to save the life of his friend Robert, and when they were finally reunited at Starfall, Ashara gave up the family SHE could have had with Jon, in order to avenge her friend Elia. I don't think this is as much a shift in dynamic as it is remembering the context of Ashara's character. A Dornish woman (whom are known for their comparative independence and autonomy) who was just as close to her friend in Elia as Ned was to Robert. Whom, least we forget, is bound by oath and rhyonish blood to her leige lord Doran Martell. Though i doubt it would have taken much persuasion. Now to cover Ned: This epiphany came to me by the combination of A. a reply you made to a previous question of mine wherein you answered "Ned accepted the Status Quo" B. While reviewing your Littlefinger series and getting inspiration to look up the meaning of the names Ashara and Lemore (theres not alot out there for Ashara but) C. i found one site stated "...Not a builder, but a planner." Thats when all this hit me. From day 1 Ned was shy towards Ashara, whilst Ashara was far more outspoken. If everything you've guys presented is true....this woman crossed into enemy territory with Ned, when she could have played it safe. So I think its far more likely that becoming Septa Lemore was her own idea for her own reasons, than that of Ned's. Ned would accept the Status quo. He made his choice, which to some degree facilitated the circumstances whereby Ashara had to make hers. (if Ned hadn't married Catelyn, Tullys wouldn't side with rebels, Robert might have died, the rebellion might have died with him, Rhaegar would live, Tywin wouldnt sack kings landing, Elia would have lived.) This is not to say that Ned is the bad guy here. He took Jon home and recognized him as his son dutifully. But he's saddled with keeping Ashara's secret. I would wager that Ashara didn't tell Ned much of her plans and intentions. Therefore, it made telling Jon the truth nearly impossible. On a spectrum, Ned would have "Your mother gave you up and disappeared" to "she's conspiring to bring down Tywin Lannister" I don't think THAT potential clusterfuck needs to be laid out. I know this is getting lengthy so I'll wrap it up here. I hope you find something worth while in this. Can't wait till your next installment. Good luck.

[@lonestarwolfentertainment7184]

I do quite like the idea that Ned won’t tell Jon about his mother because then he’ll have to tell him why she’s not in his life, no doubt the poor boy would fall into an even worse depression if he discovered that his mother all but abandoned him to pursue her own goals.

[@brucewaite3733]

@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 the moments when Ned gets angry with the mention of Ashara lead me to think that there's a touch of bitterness in Ned towards Ashara. To me you can't rationally be that angry when you're the one who planned her disappearance...but if you didn't plan it. That makes way more sense.

[@thisguy8106]

My first read through, when I wasn't breaking anything down.. I was just enjoying the story, and on the edge of my seat, I assumed R+L=J. But that's one of the main reasons I decided to read it more times (besides the obsessed part *cough cough* lol) It was way too simple. In a story sooooooooo beyond simple, one of the main mysteries isn't something that simple. Where damn near everyone was like, "Oh, Jon is definitely Ned's sister's son" after the 'Promise Me' part. What y'all are saying and showing is exactly what GRRM said is there..the devils in the details. Y'all are right. To deny it is to bury your head in the sand and pray for fan fiction crap.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you Gamer. I’ve been wondering where you’ve been

[@alicelaybourne1620]

See, and I think Ashara Dayne is too simple. I mean jeez, I ruled her out exactly when Catelyn says that she accused Ned of sleeping with Ashara Dayne and producing a bastard Jon (asked him "the truth of it"). On page 65 of an 800 page book (roughly 4000 pages so far). So obvious it isn't obvious anymore?

[@allyriastark3508]

Alice Laybourne Ashara is mentioned 11 times in five books and every time she is tied to Ned and Jon. Plus we also learn Ned slienced the rumors which is what Cerceir wanted to when rumors about her incest relationship and bastard children began. It was said when you slience the rumors you are only saying they are true. That's exactly what Ned did. By reacting to Catelyn like that and later stopping the name of Ashara Dayne being mentioned he just proved people the rumors were true.

[@thisguy8106]

Alice Laybourne No. She asked about Ashara. Never mentioning Jon. And he says Never ask me about Jon. Which she didn't. There's more to the story of Ned marrying Cat. Her asking about Ashara was because I think the whispers were that he married her. What Robb did.. I believe mirrors Ned's story. Besides. You don't name your heir after someone who killed the greatest member your family ever had and caused one to "kill herself".

[@thisguy8106]

Alice Laybourne I'm just ready to know. For the books to be finished and the story concluded. And that will allow for some awesome future stories. After all the carnage is sorted out.

[@Optionsaregood]

This is a great series, have absolutely nailed it with this analysis. Having become obsessed with deciphering this whole story from the books.

[@daddyleon]

I can totally understand why Ned woul become furious about thse Ashara things. I would be soooooo bitter if I had to give up my love for political reasons that you practically had no say over, whole officially you did (since he was the lord but still had to go to war honour as well as self-preservation). And.. his Tully marriage wouldn't have been _that_ nessecary anyway, they already declared war against the king, who would not really like that. So after that, a marriage was not necessary to secure an alliance, especailly because he had _already_ married officially. But of House Dayne were to declare for the rebels...they could've been extinguished by the other Dornish. Argh..feudalism and war, such a cluster fuck of bad ideas!

[@chaoticneutral4665]

Great video . It really makes me wonder if Aegon's beautiful septa with stretch marks that Tyrion watches swim naked in A Dance with Dragons is Ashara. It would be safer to be the imposter of a heir all the enemies think is dead then Rhaegar child

[@johnathankinne3998]

No One That's who she most likely is her name is Septa Lemore. They mentioned that when Ned got Jon from Ashara he had her go east with baby Aegon to protect him since his Valyrian features would give him away in Westeros. It would be easy since they both have purple eyes and Ashara is also doing her brother Arthur a solid by taking over his oath to protect Aegon. They believe Haldon Halfmaester is the original Winterfell maester who delivered Jon and Aegon both and left with Ashara before Catelyn showed up at Winterfell with Maester Luwin and baby Robb after the rebellion ended.

[@scottmerryman2677]

Lord and Lady back at it again! This Friday just turned up all the way to 11!

[@thenewcaesar2668]

or should you say "13" ... I'll leave now.

[@Lotschi]

I totally believe in N+A=J, it makes absolute sense. Ashara might be Septa Lemure. The only thing I wonder about is if it makes sense for not-so-fake Aegon being R+L

[@ladyszechuan8934]

You guys are the best, I've had to re-read the books a few times to try to catch everything I love it!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thank you Danielle

[@ladyszechuan8934]

No thank you, you guys put all this hard work in and make the book fans really think about where grrm could be going with the story. You guys are fantastic!

[@AryaandherPrayers]

With TWOW “close” to being finished, I had to come back and rewatch all of these. It makes so much more sense as opposed to R+L=J

[@lianafeeser7868]

I absolutely love the idea of Jon's parentage being different in the show and the books. Why shouldn't they be? Out of necessity, the show is telling a story based on the books, not the story of the actual books. N+A=J is too complex a revelation to have a meaningful impact in the show, and R+L=J is too simple for a seven volume saga.

[@Li_Tobler]

Yup + I think they needed more drama for Dany's arc (incestuous romance). After all they've showed multiple times that they prioritize drama over a complicated and compelling story :)

[@tehn3085]

You guys put so much effort in these videos. It's all very much appreciate it. And before I saw this video I was reading Arya's chapter where Ned tells her of her father and Ashara. And I was like "What other reason could house Dayne call him Ned for?!"

[@tanksmoonchild]

YES. YES. YES. I have been saying this for a while too. N+A=J makes some much more sense from a story telling perspective. Jon could then be the Sword of the Morning. And Jon, as the Sword of the morning, facing the dark forces and bringing an end to the long night is almost poetic. And to top it of he would be wielding "Dawn". Perfect. What is the ultimate light bringer, dawn. Azor Ahai's sword was "Lightbringer". So Jon ending the long night with Dawn would simply be epic! I'll say that again "epic"! Freaking epic!

[@gogozeppeli9267]

Jon can still wield dawn even if hes not related to the dayne though?

[@nickdentoom1173]

1 word: Timeline. N+A = J theory is BS since the timeline doesn't fit.

[@callumwebb4927]

@@nickdentoom1173 So I take it you haven't bothered to watch their other videos, ya know, the ones where they put together a timeline that matches up near perfectly.

[@nickdentoom1173]

@@callumwebb4927 Which it doesn't + Show has already debunked this theory hardcore.

[@callumwebb4927]

@@nickdentoom1173 No you fool, it doesnt prove ANYTHING and the fact you've said that as a reason shows how idiotic you are.

[@LouiseGreeneyed]

I just wanted to tell you guys I tremendously enjoy your videos. Very well put together, very nicely presented and love hearing your soothing voices :)

[@jordanpax9735]

Great video, I love hearing more about Ned and Ashara. Keep up the great work you two, I'm going to wait to read the books until we learn the truth

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

sometimes I wish I waited a bit longer...I'm not patient...that's how we ended up doing all of this...we lack the patience to wait for GRRM to give us the answers so we decided we should try to figure it out ourselves

[@theotherknight8381]

That last picture of GRRM looks like a mob boss about to kill me. The two contrast of GRRM usually looking happy in pictures and the shadows covering his face makes it feel like I angered the wrong man. I love it.

[@LoneWolf-xe6ye]

Hey you guys know that house daynes sigil is a white sword right and house stark is a grey wolf. And remember how jon is the white wolf

[@nickdentoom1173]

@Lone Wolf Jon is called the White Wolf because of Ghost, who is White.

[@aaronbaron3155]

I completely agree with this and the mance Dayne theory. Out of all the theories it makes the most sense

[@fakearya9158]

I love that closing quote from George! I always wondered if he spends much time checking into theories and if they cause him to change his story. It probably would be better for him to not look! Great video, as always! Your Septa Lemore is Ashara is the first video of yours I watched and I've been hooked since! I love how you can add 2 more videos here because there is so much evidence of NAJ, make the haters suck it! I posted a dorky Ned and Jon comparison thing on your FB right when you guys posted this video, must have had some unagi mind jedi shit. Have an awesome weekend guys!! 🐺❄⛄

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thanks...you too

[@yougosquishnow]

The quote at the end kinda disproves this whole theory. The books are basically hinting at r+l =j and he said he isn't a liar. Not to mention he says in the book rhaegar's thinks his son would be the prince who is promised and the books hint at Jon being that too.

[@zirconquartz]

Wow, this felt like a dissertation than a theory. Great job guys! But have you looked at what Ashara's name means? If George stated that he must know what a character's name is before writing about them, then the meaning of Ashara's name might be a clue to her character and possible connection to Jon.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

first of all...thank you so much...at some point when we will probably do a video specifically about Ashara because we've researched her name quite a bit and a few of our fans have sent us really good stuff too

[@thisguy8106]

Perfect. Just perfect. Can't describe it any other way.

[@Lillith333]

So Jon is older than Rob? Jon being Ned's son makes so much more sense. I didn't read the books but when I watched the reveal on the show I thought it odd and a shoe horn as Jon is always considered by everyone as a true Northman.

[@JuliusEvans06]

The only thing that makes me doubt this is that Ned+Ashara is a textual reference. Too explicit in the text. We know GRRM tends to be more cryptic. The first time I read the books I thought either Wylla or Ashara was Jon's mother, because it is stated in the books that some kind of relationship took place between them. Their names are right there associated with Ned. One would think GRRM would not put textual evidence of Jon's mother so lightly, being THE great mystery of the entire series. But I am still a believer of N+A=J

[@gogozeppeli9267]

Perhaps it was never meant to be "THE GREAT SECRET OF THIS SERIE" ....fan just blew it out of proportion....

[@cjpeterson2530]

Joined your Patreon this morning. You two are the best!!!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

+Corey Peterson thank you so much

[@desideratafirstofhername5057]

The more I learn about this theory the more clever and sensical it feels. I hope this is the route GRRM goes. R+L=J seems to fan fictiony now and a bit predictable, which is not his style

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

that's how we felt when we first read the books...I had heard R+L=J from someone I worked with and assumed it was true...then we got to the Knight of the Laughing Tree story and Ned Dayne's convo with Arya and decided we needed to start over and see what is going on

[@kikima258]

This made me realise that is a far better story if jon is ned's biological son everything about him is stark not just his looks like one youtuber said about jon "he is the starkiest stark who ever starket" even in the show but i think both theories are possible even if he is half targareyen he also has the starks blood was raised by and amongst starks so that makes him more a wolf than a dragon

[@ivanbluecool]

No matter what happens whether you are right or wrong. Jon needs this. Let him be happy. It would destroy him of he finds he had been lied to by Ned and his visions of rob and cat would cause his pain and suffering. Also he would be blamed for the war if rhegar was his dad as it killed his uncle and grandfather and aunt

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I think it would destroy him to find out he isn't Ned's son...all the kid has ever wanted was to be a Stark...to find out hes a Targ would devastate him

[@ivanbluecool]

The Order of the Green Hand blood of fire and it featured his home he thought he never should have

[@flawkolopez6565]

That's actually one of the reasons I think R+L= J is true. The inner conflict of Jon finding out Ned was not his Sire makes for a better story. Talk about the human heart being in conflict with itself.

[@alicelaybourne1620]

Devastation and inner turmoil. Sounds like a real page turner.

[@flawkolopez6565]

Alice Laybourne Cause the story has been sunshine and bubbles so far, right?

[@FishBoneD14]

Thanks for all your hard work.

[@Thunderous333]

I thought R+L=J was proven in the show? Although I have to admit, imagine Aegon (Books) is R+L and Jon is N+A. That would be pretty freaky.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I think that's the only scenario where everyone wins...HBO gets to capitalize on the popularity of R+L=J...George gets to reveal his secrets himself (like he deserves the right to do) and the controversy it causes when it is revealed in the books drives sales through the roof

[@Thunderous333]

=)

[@sophiawilson8696]

in the books it is B+A=J and R+L=D Aegon's parents are Rheagar and Elia Martell.

[@gogozeppeli9267]

@@sophiawilson8696 that aegon died in king's landing....the mountain killed that baby....

[@nickdentoom1173]

@Sophia Timeline

[@JMAAD]

i also believe the R+L=J is show only as why would GRRM allow his story to be told in full before he could do it.....makes since to me anyways.............either way i enjoy the show and relish the books and patiently await the release of the last two.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I couldn't have said any of that better myself

[@JMAAD]

thank you and for the record i enjoy the heck outta ya'll videos....dont stop

[@LouiseGreeneyed]

Same. It's also never confirmed that the showrunners guessed right; just that he found it amusing and decided to let them do that.

[@carlosquiteno9224]

is not true, hbo has the rights to the novels, george can not tell you what part of his novels can use, as george signed a contract because george is olbigado to fulfill the contract Winter Winds will be different in some things, but will go in parallel with the series in others. At the moment there are probably a dozen characters dead in the series but they are alive in the books, so it is impossible that series and books remain the same. george enn your blog

[@johnathankinne3998]

In the shoe Jon is absorbing Aegon's role the way Jorah absorbed Connington's by getting grey scale while traveling east with Tyrion.

[@jeffreyaguilar8028]

Another point actually is how Jon doesn’t have Targaryen features and traits. Let’s talk about genetics logically. Jon obviously is a Stark by blood and everyone says he looks just like Ned and in fact looks more like Ned then the rest of the Stark boys. So he inheritedStark features, now if you try to say well maybe that’s his Stark genetics from Lyanna but let me just say it is mathematically impossible to have 100% of your traits from one parent and 0% from the other. No silver hair, no violet eyes, no unrealistically beautiful face like Rhaegar. You’d think if he was Rhaegar and Lyanna’s son he’d hit the genetics powerball and be the most handsome lad in the world if he was their kid and not Ned’s.

[@allydr90]

So what you're saying is that Jon is Ned's and Lyanna's son. *Sweet Home Alabama*

[@jonstark153]

No that's not a problem at all. In House of the dragon Rhaenyra Targaryen will have children who doesn't look Targaryen at all so don't factor that in the equation

[@laisatorres3594]

This make so much sense! I don't get the hype of... the other theory which i will not name... Thank you guys again. Some of the best things about ASOIAF is the discussions it makes for. P.S. could you do a video on Jaime? Not just his redemption arc, but he also have dreams and visions that seem to me, more conected to the Seven (he being a andal descendent, make sense), although the first dream he had when sleeping on a weirwood tree... sounds interesting

[@allyriastark3508]

Laisa Torres actually Lannisters aren't Andal but First Men since they are coming from House Florent. So makes sense for Jaime to receive a vision from Weirwoods.

[@laisatorres3594]

Oh... you're absolutely right... i've totally forgotten... and now i'm even more interested

[@BaltimoreKid1996]

The Wolf and the Star

[@minisam1988]

i have always r+l does not = J, i came to that conclusion on my first read thru but on my second was like wait one second i cant work anything else out in this book like Mel or The Others or anything of the "mysterious" kind. So my next thought was Jon is Lyannas and The Sword of the Mornings child, but that wouldn't make too much sense due to Kingsguard vows and the such. Now this is reasonable with solid evidence and or solid theories with backup from text and real world examples. Kudos to you.

[@rodstone1597]

I would honestly love for y'all to read the books and do a little 5 minute synopsis of each chapter. I am not sure if there are any copyright concerns with reading the books on KZbin and I love Roy dotrice but y'all have great voices.

[@ladyfibonaccii]

Look up Valar Rereadis by History of Westeros

[@rodstone1597]

@@ladyfibonaccii thank you for the suggestion, how are you liking these videos 7 years later?

[@ladyfibonaccii]

@@rodstone1597 love em... they offer lots of insight and makes you think about things in such a different way because of the amount of theories that are out there about the books, plus the show and all the many perspectives people have... so to me, it's fantastic!!

[@camrn_brian]

Riveting and above all detailed. As always I've enjoyed this video and completely agree with your hardcore analysis. Can't wait for The Winds of Winter and hope that we get the resolving details of Jon's parentage and put it all to rest.

[@archivist_of_dragonstone]

Jon Snow doesn't have dragon dreams but....Tyrion "Lannister" does. ;)

[@MrMakee543]

You two are the reason why i have started read asoif. Thank You.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

I can think of no higher praise...thank you so much

[@stefiz]

Thank you for the clarity!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

it was our pleasure

[@aprilsalsburg1331]

Isn't Sansa's maiden cloak for her wedding to Tyrion gray with a white dire wolf done in pearls? The inverse of the Stark sigil, not unlike what we might see with a bastard child of a noble family?

[@jonstark153]

Oh that's a cool one

[@frumiousb.7148]

yes! Jon is a Ned clone, it will be revealed in the books, it doesn't matter to me what HBO says about it :D

[@preferredpronoun2614]

Arya is a lyarra clone. Guess Arya is lyarra's daughter then!

[@callumwebb4927]

@@preferredpronoun2614 That's just a dumb strawman, how about you challenge the theory with actual evidence ?

[@preferredpronoun2614]

@@callumwebb4927 Pointing out how the logic is flawed is indeed challenging the theory. As well as using absence of evidence to support said theory (ned doesn't think about rhaegar). You would have to come up with a convoluted excuse to dismiss the most solid piece of evidence for r+l=j to posit a different theory. That for some reason the author that always overestimates his writing speed picked D+D to bring his magnum opus to television because they answered the question of who jon's mother was incorrectly and because they did he decided to let them be the ones to adapt the series. It's beyond idiotic to the point of being outright denial. Sorry, r+l=j is how it's going to be. I wish it was otherwise but that's mainly because we've had to wait so long for the reveal it feels too cliche. But then again so do fake out deaths at this point but they just keep coming.

[@callumwebb4927]

@@preferredpronoun2614 Oh, ok, so where is this evidence ? Give me one, micro, small shred of it. Jon has litterly nothing in common with Rheagar, you think he'd have picked up something, but as said above, nearly everyone mentions that Jon is Ned 2.0, not Rheagar. Its not in George's nature to go with the painfully cliche "prince that saves the world" if not, you've been missing the entire point of the series Its like a religion to you people, you just cannot comprehend that there you may be wrong. So how does it end then, do Dany and Jon get married, kill the others then live happily ever after ? Do you honestly believe that the show resembles how George actually envisions it ? Why is he obliged to cater and follow on Dick and Dumber's fanfic version of Westeros.

[@preferredpronoun2614]

@@callumwebb4927 Evidence of what? Exactly how do you know jon has nothing in common with Rhaegar, we don't know him as a character and all we've heard has been second hand. There's also no one comparing bran or rickon to ned so using that as a sort of support for your theory is extremely flimsy. Yes Jon can take after Ned. They're family, that's pretty much determined already. Doesn't make ned his biological father. Same as (as said before) Arya acting like Lyanna doesn't make her lyannas child, just that they're related. The hell do you mean, 'you people?' You aren't talking to people, you're talking to me. So get over your preconceptions and address me as an individual of go fuck yourself. You choose. I find the logic supporting the N+A theory to be cherry picked and lazy. Because it's likely that r+l=J doesn't automatically mean that he'll be the prince and save the world. Their is a very possible subversion in that the revelation could actually cause him to lose whatever support he has, or simply that it means jack all at the end. It's hilarious your reply to me complains of straw man, yet then you proceed to straw man what you believe my theory ends. No the show doesn't match up to the way the books will be written, but I absolutely believe Martin thought he would be able to stay ahead of it in the beginning when he was talking to the showrunners. Because it turns out he didn't really doesn't diminish that at all. There's zero evidence supporting the theory that martin intentionally gave the show to people who came to the wrong conclusion of jons parentage. That alone makes this theory wishful thinking and as I said before, outright denial.

[@jackdoyle7453]

Jon being sword of the morning, made narrative sense to me, so I used to think this theory might be true.

[@christopherbarnett9459]

Love your work Order of the Green Hand!!!

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

Thanks Christopher