The Problem With Round Start in Fighting Games

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[@Romneto]

Fascinating topic. Great video. A correction about the switch glitch in MvC2. Using that glitch can be effective but it actually doesn't make your character's attack come out immediately. For example: Magneto vs Magneto. Player 1 uses the switch glitch and starts with crouching LK. Player 2 does a perfectly timed manual crouching LK. Player 2's cr LK will activate first and will get the first attack of the match.

[@TheoryFighter]

Thank you for the correction!

[@EldonMoore]

@@TheoryFighter In addition, the switch glitch in UMVC3 had another use having to deal with character priority called the Maluk Shield. If you play your team in a certain order and then hold your assist button, your point character will switch, but they will come in from a different port number and the targeting on certain moves or assists will change priority to another character. There's a video on it where it makes character order important based on which side of the screen you're on, but not many players use this feature to its fullest. The Japanese player Cross was the only one to use it consistently. I think the concept of an opening gambit is inherently flawed due to the nature of fighting. There will always be one person who is aggressing and pushing the issue, so when different styles of fighting collide, its never truly equal. By buffing one game feature, a tier list is thrown on its head in all games.

[@dbycrash]

I played this game at a very high level for a considerable amount of time having matches against all of the names you may know and some you may not(mixup for example… probably would have been more well known had he lived in a different part of the USA and not lost a famous match to row). I always understood the glitch as you holding the button and it coming out on the first active frame of the match. I could be wrong though… it took 20 years to figure out dhalsim can punish drones

[@amaterachu1]

Wait is it really a glitch or just a name

[@twours]

We all know that the optimal round start strats are Teabag or Taunt

[@lordtikidecancer]

I Confirm

[@EBKDanteMustDie]

Deadpool has a taunt that can be cancelled and people always fall for it 😂😂

[@Vinvulpis]

I do that as my greeting all the time in Smash. Two crouches.

[@Chadmiral]

@@EBKDanteMustDie Trollpool

[@richarddavis8863]

@@Vinvulpis I main Peach and if I run into a Zelda, Daisy, or other Peach I always hold down for a second or two to "curtsy" for the other princess

[@jojokim5617]

I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with certain characters having stronger round starts than others. It’s just another pro of playing a certain character just like strong offense, defense, or neutral game. However I agree that the problem comes in when round start favoritism is out of the players control as in with Melee. that being said I do love the way melty’s round start places more emphasis on player skill rather than character choice.

[@Eaode]

yeah i agree, Round Start being in one character's favor, at the end of the day, doesn't have an effect on the game that's fundamentally different than the matchup itself being in one character's favor. In fact if you think about it a certain way, it's just _part_ of the matchup dynamic, but one that only comes into play 2 or three times each game. e.g. In Guilty Gear Strive, I play Giovanna and I'm pretty sure there's almost nothing I can do to beat Sol's best Round start options. I'm more or less forced on the defensive at the start of the match. But there's matchups where I'm often forced on the defensive in general (Sol himself being one) so it's not wildly different than what I already have to deal with.

[@ChildishBrandino.]

well i think the argument is that in some fighters theres literally no other alternative (due to movement systems etc) for me i think tekken has the best round starts

[@jojokim5617]

@@Eaode agree completely, it’s just another element to the matchup

[@jojokim5617]

@@ChildishBrandino. I mean, as long as it stems as a part of a character choice made by the player (i.e. not due to what port you choose or other external factors) I don’t see a problem with non-neutral starts even if a character has no options other than to retreat

[@IsaSaien]

Yeah melee is literally the only one that made me go "yeah that sounds unfair" All the others sounds alright, with no movement start being the one I think is the most fair.

[@colgatecrescendo]

I think the coolest round start movement implementation in a fighting game I've played is in JoJo HFTF, which works on a FT2 rounds system where in between *each round* both players are allowed to use any movement option they have, and turn stand mode on/off. The kicker is that both players also start the countdown where they were last standing (I. E. the KO'd player starts moving from where they get up and the other player starts from where they last stood), which leads to cool scrambles and mindgames to keep the opposing player where you want them to be, and even crazy baits and mixups with reads and last minute repositioning. What's really cool though is that on the Final Round (which only ever happens if a draw or double KO happens), both players can actually start attacking BEFORE the text declaring round start begins, which adds EVEN MORE trickery, and it's always a treat to see. Even though it's still subject to the problems of any other movement round start (even more so since JoJos is one of those games where getting cleanly hit once against a competent player leads to a 70% combo, then into a 50/50 mixup or worse), I'd say it adds a good amount of depth to the game that I haven't really seen elsewhere. I really hope to see the idea implemented in another game.

[@leirbag1595]

Having the round starts require so much planning and cunning to use well, and needing to use gambles to keep one's opponent in the perfect position for yourself is so much fitting for a JoJo game

[@heardofrvb]

Found something funny about this. In Plasma Sword, Zelkin and Eagle have dashes that actually hits the opponent, adding that to pre-round movement and...yeah.

[@Ramsey276one]

ouch

[@fluury]

happy you mentioned melty, it's roundstart is by far the best for airdashers.

[@yanto9788]

Tekken 4 deserves a mention here as that game allowed full movement during the countdown like other games talked about in the video, which led to a lot of people wavedashing and dancing around each other at the start, but most importantly one of the key features in that game was that stages had some wacky environmental features that meant that the pre-match scramble allowed players to fight for a real positional advantage at the start of a match

[@diddlenfiddle7311]

Strange that was only in 4

[@sabin97]

i did something more evil. i use lei. so i went into snake. and from there to panther. and my opponent would have to guess if they needed to block high or low....i would make it super random

[@phoenixlich]

here's a thought: make a button correspond to a certain part of the stage or screen (e.g. middle, left or right) for both players so they can sort of decide (but keep it hidden from the opponent) where they begin a fight on the stage up until it begins. obviously you'd have to do some camera tricks with the countdown so people are looking at a blank stage or whatever and the fighters just materialize. maybe decide before the stage intro ends? regardless, you could get into some fun mind games with it because you'd like to believe you could predict where your opponent would choose to start a fight based on their strengths, but they know what you know, and vice versa. So you might end up next to each other unintentionally or full distance opposite sides, and every round it can vary.

[@kennethpowell4158]

For 2D games, I prefer a neutral start, but with some personality added. One of the many things I liked about 3rd Strike was that practically every character had a neat little intro when the match started, and characters with rivalries had special intros. It gave the game character. In 2D games in particular, a neutral start strikes me as being about as fair as you possibly can be, because for most 2D games you are only going left or right and at a rather limited distance. For 3D games, however, I like how Soul Calibur VI does it, where spacing is dependent on the stage. One can either let the stage be set at random, making things fair if not necessarily equal; or you could let a player choose the stage before the match (if I recall correctly, I think SCVI has it so the settings can be set to let players take turns selecting the stage). That adds a layer of strategy, and allows a lagging player to seek needed advantage. It's not perfect, but I think it works well overall.

[@LordRaptor]

I've always liked the concept of movement before round starts, It's really cool to be able to sort of strategize and position yourself accordingly, the Marvel games allow for a limited movement, but in a game like Tekken 4 for example, where not only are you able to move in every direction, jump, sway and dash, but the game is in 3D and the maps are very uniquely shaped, I love playing that game competitively, even though it's not very properly balanced.

[@zhaoyun255]

That reminded me. Kohaku/Hisui from Melty Blood was allowed to tag back and forth between round start. The most common strat was that because the round start visual obstruct your vision in some character, you can confuse your opponent with the constant tag between the sisters, hence making very hard to predict who's going to be the lead because you CANNOT HIT the sub character of Kohaku/Hisui.

[@someaccount5200]

well you can still hear the audio cue

[@justcallmeseth]

Babe wake up, new TheoryFighter video

[@naomisisk4663]

Only round 2 here, but I think props needs to go to vampire savior. Instead of conventional rounds, you have 2 health bars and when the first one goes down, you get knocked down and given a chance to roll to a better position before getting thrown right back into the action.

[@therealbahamut]

Killer Instinct does the same thing. I think it's something I enjoy about both franchises.

[@shinsmoke]

Injustice: "Am I a joke to y'all?"

[@dariogonzalez8989]

@@shinsmoke "YES!!"

[@penguinmaster16]

sounds like a lesser version of how smash gives you invulnerability for a few seconds when you spawn back in after losing a stock

[@naomisisk4663]

@@penguinmaster16 full invulnerability wouldn't work in a more traditional fighter. It works for smash because movement is so freeform that the invulnerable player can just be avoided for a couple of seconds.

[@Evergladez]

I'm pretty sure doa gives you free movement options including side stepping. Depending on the stage you can even hide behind a tree and set up mind games early on.

[@oinkoink1909]

Sometimes I forget about dead or alive it's pretty fun

[@Ramsey276one]

Ayane: .... If you want to run, I won’t pursue you. Or... Zack: I thought I was supposed to be the clown here! XD

[@СвенКаллуров]

At this point I'm pretty well convinced that the so-called FGC has some obscene hatred for DOA and intentionally ignores its existence. They'd rather acknowledge Smash than DOA despite many of them claiming Smash isn't even a fighting game.

[@Evergladez]

@@СвенКаллуров from what I've heard from the doa community is that around doa4 it was really popular and even got broadcasted on like spike TV and mr wizard old Evo guy felt salty about that and tried to always keep it out of Evo. My observation is that a lot of fg players are biased against girl characters, lucky chole and Marie rose were hated for being cute characters while also anytime a girl character is "hot" they say things like booba, waifu fighter, etc. By and large they only seem to praise Tom boys like mokoto and baiken and with doa being predominantly female that poses a problem. There's also a lot of people that are now saying tekken 4 is cool when weirdly everything to brought new to the series exist in doa which also implements it better. Honestly if doa7 introduced more cooler males I guarantee the perception would change.

[@anon3631]

@@Evergladez americans are just puritans, they prefer gore over sexuality for some reason

[@Kelohmello]

It's interesting to see highlighted, but really this is just fighting games. A character having an advantage at round start is no different from a character having an advantage at neutral or a character having advantage when their opponent is blocking.

[@Kelohmello]

@Super Mario I don't get what your point is.

[@stolensentience]

@@Kelohmello as in, the videos are just some guy theorizing. You seeing the point is irrelevant.

[@stolensentience]

I agree with your op tho

[@CaptCurtis]

The fact that this video isn't 20 minutes long is such a relief, I honestly can't think of anything that's wrong, good job thank you for the good video. no filler bullshit period.

[@Roze_aye]

"During the intro, you can charge moves" Excuse me, you can *what!?*

[@cloudnovalab]

The most interesting Round Start I've found recently, is the Dirty mechanich in Toy Fighter: you can move and attack your opponent before the actual "Fight!", but if you do, you get penalty with the announcer "Dirty!" on screen and lose a Super move bar

[@Micha-Hil]

For each matchup, take each character's crouching medium kick (or their most basic poke) and multiply the hitbox length by 1.5x. Place them at the middle of the stage, using the average length of the two c.mKs, and you've got your round start.

[@barokmeca]

Before you even started the video I was wondering if you were going to mention Melty Blood. I was not disappointed.

[@melancholyentertainment]

I think something like Melty Blood with infinite stages would be really interesting from a positioning standpoint. Makes positioning at the start a very involved part of the match despite happening before the timer begins, and at least theoretically doesn't have the downside of Marvel vs Capcom where you're just backing yourself into a corner if you do anything other than holding forward.

[@canofnothing]

Very interesting insights, never really thought about this myself. I suppose it's just another thing that shows how no fighting game can truly be balanced unless you only have one character. But that imperfection is what makes these games fun. Could be fun to see a mechanic where players can choose spawn positions before the match starts, but the character doesn't actually spawn on the stage until the timer starts so you don't know where your opponent will even be.

[@gogomarioloshi]

To be honest, "fair" round starts would be unfair in some cases. It would have to take characters into consideration and that means all kinds of wacky things. If you are a zoner then starting the round far away from each other would be good. But what happens if your opponent is rush down or grappler? What happens if your opponent isn't a zoner but still has moves that have a big hit box or is some type or character that benefits heavily off of keeping people out with a sword or kick?

[@PolarBair8]

I became a big fan of Marvel's style of round start through Samurai Shodown 3, which also lets you walk during the coutdown. It's possible to buffer special moves for a brief window when it says En Garde! While command grabs are ridiculously strong (Genjuro can loop an inescapable setup if he reads your wakeup direction), you can usually chicken block, forcing them to go for high-risk anti-airs.

[@kesegoe9488]

Look man my screens youtubes touch function is bugged i didnt mean to dislike here have this instead 👍

[@anonymousshawn9996]

It’s even true in actual fighting. A BJJ practitioner is already at a disadvantage against a striker because the BJJ HAS to get past the strikers attacks in order to get in their specialized “zone.”

[@kaceejones2282]

In KOF after the the roundstart players often run roll or hop to get quickly in your face but the other does a special move to keep u way or ends up getting caught in a combo. Or in Fatal Fury after the round start players are already dashing and sidestepping or they use a special move to get closer on their opponents

[@dizzyheads]

"Putting yourself in the corner is always a bad choice" Online players: *Immediately holding back*

[@calvin1800]

I know it certainly isn't traditional, but just because it's off piste i always loved pokken's different take on round starts.

[@anomaly7853]

Surprised Tekken 4 wasn't mentioned. I remember them having a feature which I found quite unique, that being that all movement options, even unique ones from command inputs, could be used before the round officially started; I was too inexperienced at the time to make any real use of it besides going into Yoshimitsu's Indian Stance and running away.

[@greenhillmario]

Type lumina still has round start movement pog

[@kevingriffith6011]

So just spitballing ideas: what if each player had a section of meter for free at the round start, but moving around at the round start depletes that meter based on how far you move. It becomes a bit of a game of chicken: if the zoner walks away at start, does the grappler want to spend the meter to chase them, or do you let them make the distance and hope the advantage having extra meter at the start gives you will be enough to make up for it?

[@therealbahamut]

An intriguing thought.

[@andrewprahst2529]

Make every character have an "ideal spacing variable" attached to them. When the game starts, average out the character's values and make that the starting spacing.

[@ThePinkPanth3r]

Damn that Cammy sprite is hot lol

[@TheAlison1456]

tfw you'll never get to live and feel a fighting game world and their characters (not just the hot ones)

[@ogslapslap8611]

i think a video on auto combos in the future sounds like something potentially up your alley, id love to see one :)

[@KevTheGalaxybender]

before I clicked on this video I already knew what you were going to say. I was like different characters excel at different ranges so some characters are at advantage at start depending on the game. lol a small pain in the ass at high level play. You lose a turn sometimes.

[@happysqWid]

TLDR: there is no problem with round starts

[@DeadBoneJones]

2:02 I swear every couple months or so I learn a brand-new thing about how dumb competitive Smash is

[@iliakatster]

Meanwhile, in strive, you can Kara Potemkin buster at round start. Fuck the neutral start, we goin IN

[@Ephraim225]

The only genre where you literally cannot run out of things to complain about lmao

[@0utrunner237]

"No one hates fighting games more than the people who love fighting games."

[@JustOniWorks]

I truly cannot wait to see if Melty continues what it started with its round starts. It was genius then, and it would be such a breath of fresh air today.

[@godowskygodowsky1155]

Hisoutensoku?

[@StellaEFZ]

@@godowskygodowsky1155 It does it but soku is an 11 year game man

[@MrTheMasterX]

Surprised you didn't talk about Killer Instinct for this topic. Great video all around.

[@Laezar1]

You know, round start could be used as a comeback mechanics. Maybe each character has a special move they throw at the beginning of the round based on the advantage the other player has. So like, you're 0-0 you have a neutral start. but you're 0-1 your character gets to use the weak version of their move (so like, if they're a zoner maybe something that push the opponent far away at the start, while if they're a grappler maybe they put a barrier behind you that prevents you from moving back at the start of the round) and at 0-2 you get the strong version (so like the zoner would start with a fireball already out at the round start forcing the opponent to deal with it and the grappler would get a free knockdown). 1-2 would be treated like 0-1. Ideally you could chose to use the move or not or maybe have two moves that you can decide on depending on the matchup, to avoid the mechanic putting you at a disadvantage. (like pushing another zoner far away if they're better at long range than you) That's like a very rough draft of the idea but it sounds cool to put the winning player immediately in an uncomfortable scenario. It doesn't really solve the issue of the neutral start since they'd still exist but it would shake things up a bit

[@truecauseofchaos]

Great video! Great choice with Monolord too!

[@PokemonTrainerVince]

Now this is a great topic. I think no matter what there will always be advantages and disadvantages. Just part of the fighting game genre. But it is always good to point these things out to try to level the playing field. Like I said before, great topic.

[@Atlas_FGC]

You failed to mention Guilty Gear's accidental(?) intro glitch between Sol and Ky in GGAC. If you don't skip the intro, it places Sol and Ky further away from each other than normal. Also, not only would the MB start probably not work in Guilty Gear where there are more diverse movement speeds and options between the characters, you only glorified MB's start without exploring any of the potential negatives with it within its own contexts. You also failed to go into how round start advantage can transition into, or fail to transition into, a meaningful advantage for the rest of the round. For someone with their handle being "TheoryFighter" you aren't doing much theorizing, or at the very least openly exploring the different aspects and ends of things and why they are or aren't issues.

[@oinkoink1909]

yeesh

[@StellaEFZ]

In melty blood if you're at disadvantage on round start it's because you fucked up bro, the same applies to games like Hisoutensoku which have a similar mechanic, but way freerer movement. The only negative it has is that a more experienced player will be able to exploit it better, for real, try coming up with something wrong with it. There just isn't.

[@Choochinc]

For anyone that doesn't play Melee, that port dependent spawn position issue is worse than you think. You might think that if both players know about it, why would anyone choose a non neutral starting port. That's because which port you choose does more things than just change where you spawn. Certain interactions have port priority, meaning you can have a slight advantage outside of starts simply because of that. For example. If both players input a grab and they both become active on the same frame, the game gives the grab to the player on the lower number port. The lower port also has the advantage when grabbing ledge. If both players try to grab the ledge on the same frame, the game gives the ledge to the lower port player. Also if you get grabbed and you are on a higher number port than your opponent, you take 1 frame less hit stun when being thrown, which can make a difference against certain combos or chain grabs.

[@DangOldRegularOld]

What if before the round starts you could hold left or right to spawn slightly closer or farther away from the center of the screen? If no direction is held you'll be put in the middle of the two options. If both players hold the same direction it will result in what's essentially a neutral start anyways, just closer to the side of the screen. This could allow for potentially advanced counter-play before the game even starts!

[@pinkfoxboi1331]

Very facinating and that explains how allot of smash games were waaaaay easyer I played when in center screen

[@cerocero2817]

I think I've played a fighting game that allowed you to walk before round start but didn't let you cross the center of the stage, but I can't put my finger on it.

[@brandonabrams6885]

I wonder if a bidding system could work. Both players bid on some kind of disadvantage without knowing the other player's bid. Then the player who takes the larger disadvantage gets to decide how round start goes. The question is, what kind of disadvantage would be appropriate? Also, there's a thing in some strategy and card games that is similar called a point buy system. With a point buy system, your (character, army, team etc.) is built up of parts that are worth a certain amount of points corresponding to the amount of power those parts grant. The player with the lowest point value gets some advantage. For example in star wars legion, a tabletop minis game, 500 total points are allowed for your army, but if you have a lower point total than your opponent, you get to choose who places their units first. I could see that mattering in tag / team fighters.

[@aqtauu]

Players should pick place on map to spawn without knowing where opponent spawned, so its more random and adds some mindgame in that

[@david2618]

Round start in Melty Blood is so fun.

[@psipenguin8626]

I don't know if this necessarily counts, but in the Art Of Fighting games, the round would start out with both players close up, and then jump backwards to a neutral position. probably not the best example in a game where nearly 2/3 the cast has projectiles and super projectiles as well, but I thought it'd be worth mentioning.

[@Epzilon12]

I do wonder if it would be possible for a game to adjust around start based on the character choice. I guess it would be extremely hard to map out the location/distance differences between matchups based on where characters excel, especially as the roster gets larger.

[@timogul]

There's a pretty simple, but tricky way to fix this, *calculated starting ranges.* If we assume that it's true that a given character has a "best range" for their kit, then just have the developers determine that range (and adjust it via patching if they get it wrong). If character A prefers being at 10ft range, and character B prefers being at 6ft range, then it would just set both characters exactly 4ft to either side of center. That's 2ft less than A wants, and 2ft more than B wants, so neutral for both. If both A and B liked 10ft, then it would just set each at 5ft from center. If A liked 2ft and B liked 15ft, it would set both characters 4.25ft from center. Off the top of my head, I believe they could accommodate any two characters while allowing a variability of only a few feet in either direction, it would never put them _too_ close, even if both are grapplers, or _too_ far, even if both are zoners, it would just work to keep the distance fair to both sides. They could even allow modding for this, either globally allowing you to make characters closer or further by X feet than the math dictates, if you find that more comfortable, or specifically setting individual characters' "perfect range," if say the community decides that the developer got one wrong an the tournament wants to work under their own house rule.

[@frigidkitsune]

I'm biased because of my character choice, but I enjoy the round start situation in Guilty Gear Strive. I feel while it is a simple locked in position, the distance you start at benefits certain tools on pretty much every character. It's still a guessing game, but everyone seems to have at least something they can do against each other. Millia for example has a command dash, which will low profile a lot of attacks, and S Tandem Top, which can fly over low pokes. This is added onto the movement options, such as back dash, and double jump or air dash.

[@memegod3029]

Though more of a niche fighting game, Capcoms Jojos Bizzare Adventure: HFTF fighting game lets you move, jump, duck, taunt, and even go into stand on/off during the round start. This let's you start a round immediately with a special move. Makes sense though as it uses the marvel vs capcom 2 engine

[@SpookerDoom]

There's also Soul Calibur VI which has neutral but spacing by different length according to the stage

[@youtubehandleeee]

Tekken 4 also allowed for pre round start movement. I think, like melty, the lateral movement of tekken is what makes it interesting

[@daeryk6424]

My favorite round start is the Time Stop glitch in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage for the Future.

[@petergerling]

That wasn't a switch "glitch"! I remember using that as a tactical importance! ... but a great observation on how important the start is and how games handled that!!!

[@UBDOOMBOT]

I did not know that was a Bug in MVC2?! I have been playing this game for decades!

[@davidpeters6743]

They could do something like in Wrestling, where it starts neutral at first, then each successive round one person gets to pick.

[@2nocob]

Song is empress rising by monolord

[@joshuaa.8934]

One thing I like in street fighter 5 is being and to hold a charge before the round start. I play Alex so I get a stomp or elbow dash for free 😎

[@MrAuthor3DS]

It would probably help if being forced into a corner gives you extra defensive options, like being able to rebound off the wall from getting hit (Pokken kinda has something like this, which would probably help some other fighting games).

[@mrosskne]

KI allows all directional inputs and no buttons (same as melty blood) and it seems to work well

[@PhillipOnTakos]

I think one style of round start you didn't mention but is a problem is how it's done in Injustice/MKX and 11. Sure the match will start like Street Fighter but the moment the first round ends the problem comes in. They simply reset the characters wherever you ended up on screen. So if you lost the round in the corner, well tough shit you're still in the corner. Not to mention the game is not consistent on if the characters will fully reset to to the match start distance. Sometimes the round winner will just stay where they are. Adding a new variable to the round start with an inconsistent distance.

[@traskindustries4970]

I remember back in the early days of fighterz when I led with kid buu and would immediately 2M because the opponent is in range at round start and the move was both fast and hard to react to. Those were good times

[@peace4myheart]

Nothing is absolutely equal. More at 6 o'clock.

[@jinpachichulo7561]

Interesting topic. Don't think there's anything wrong with neutral. Just like in MMA, ground fighters are at a disadvantage at the start of a round. It's their job to overcome that disadvantage since neutral is what's fair to most. We can't go by exceptions. Majority rules.

[@cydranzer6027]

I think a neutral position start will always be better since the game is balanced around the attack ranges of each character. Assuming no frame 1 button shenanigans, even if you character is at a disadvantage in the starting range that just becomes another aspect of the matchup you need to learn. At that point it's significance is probably a bell curve where the lower and higher tier players are affected less (either not good to make use of it or good enough to have labbed the counters). If any character has an uncounterable or overly powerful start that is a game balance issue with that character and not a knock against neutral start imo.

[@EulalioMagana]

Before a round started I did the Lui Kang bicycle kick move and held it and when the round started I immediately did the bicycle kick and it landed lasted until I won the round

[@HQRubbish]

The mechanics of round starts in different games is also something I find curious. Tekken not allowing buffered moves at all when the game otherwise has a very lenient 8f buffer for example. Or SamshoVsp allowing Shizumaru to charge what is obstensibly an even stronger TAP from the second you pick him in char select.

[@t4d0W]

TAP charging IMO is less round start than something unique that the game lets that character have. Boxer in ST can also charge TAP on char select. With Shizumaru though its one button he's committed to and he can still move around very well. So its a matter of finding that opening for a clean hit. Dunno if this TAP charging also worked with Raiden's dropkick in KOF13/Najd's C attack in KOF14 or they had to hold that for at least 20 seconds in game.

[@reginlief1]

Here’s my pitch. During the countdown, you have a cursor on screen that can be moved around to any spot on your half of the screen. When the countdown ends, that’s where you spawn. Im sure this has problems but if both players get to pick where they start on their own turf, I imagine that could be fairest.

[@moe3235]

For the all consuming Al-Gore Ruthenium

[@NewGabeOrder]

The original edition of Under Night In-Birth had pre-round movements, but that was dropped from Exe Late onwards. It didn't even return on Exe Late [clr]. Same can be said with Tekken 4, but Tekken 5 onwards doesn't have pre-round movement; even Tekken 7 lacked this feature. Also, the only Samurai Shodown game to do pre-round movements is Samurai Shodown III; no other game does that.

[@kiwisaraphim6622]

Everyone has a plan until you spinning piledriver them

[@BerretSO4]

So we're just gonna blow past the whole "Balrog is M. Bison" thing huh?

[@dotmurda]

That character start glitch was there since xmen vs street fighter

[@azmodanpc]

Here for the sick doom music choice

[@agnesiskovv]

love the monolord bgm

[@denshitenshi]

Simply a difference of characters like any other situation. One character is just better on round start and that's an advantage. Hopefully the character has a disadvantage to compensate, but that's just something that comes with asymmetrical multiplayer. I don't see that as a problem any more than it's a problem that some characters have better combo damage. That is, if the round starts are consistent unlike melee's port privilege.

[@TrollANIMU]

DoA allows round start movement

[@NewGabeOrder]

..Not the first game, though. It's likely due to the inclusion of Ring-outs, which DOA2 dropped in favor of bigger stages with multiple areas to fight in.

[@Aurongroove]

Tekken 4 did this. You could move, sidestep, wave dash etc before the round started.

[@azazeltf2]

brilliant idea: in addition to all the other character stats, each character has a "round start spacing" characteristic. this would be hardcoded into the game, and every character would have one based on their kit. when characters are locked in, the distance between the fighters at the beginning of the round is determined by the average of the two fighters' "round start spacing". zoner has 100 units, grappler has 50, average at 75. thoughts?

[@SaberToothPortilla]

This does start to remediate the issue, but at the same time, how would you determine what that number should be for any given character? Even assuming that you do, you run into the following problem. Gonna get a little math heavy, but there's a point. Say you figure out some way to assign a value to every round start distance from your opponent, y = f(x) where y is the goodness of the distance, x is the distance, and f is the function between them. It's almost certain that, for some characters, there will be more values of x that are nearly as good as the next one, and for some characters, the goodness of that x value will drop off very quickly. Think of a grappler, *super* good in command grab range, and all of a sudden, once you're out of that range, it's nowhere near as a good. Now think of a shoto, probably optimal in the close-mid to mid range, but them being closer or further away generally isn't detrimental. If we just average the two distances, characters like grapplers will be heavily disadvantaged by being pulled away from their "sweet-spot", while shotos are only mildly disadvantaged. The other issue that comes to mind is that, whatever value you come up with as optimal is almost certainly match-up dependent. It really isn't possible to have a round start that doesn't favor one character or the other, unless it's a mirror match. Even when it's a mirror match, it might still preference one *player* over the other, etc.

[@shadou1234567]

for me its the same argument as teched parry. What distance should it leave the characters from each other? So close you can try grabing again? so far that it resets neutral?

[@Poignant_Ritual]

BOY IS THAT SOME FUCKING MONORD YOU HAVE PLAYING IN THE BACKGROUND?!

[@mishaelcalhoun1165]

The best round start is in soul calibur 6. Each level starts you in different distances that benefit different class types. So the edge is totally random.

[@Cardium]

how about if the characters were invisible until round start

[@Sniper_T_2x]

It’s always weird to see Balrog as M.Bison as an American even tho it’s a way better name and actually fits lol

[@ChipsMcClive]

Choose your- FOX!

[@anthonyrocco578]

You have to know who your matching up against and strategy there are mismatches but that's what makes the game fun if I'm facing off an opponent heavy on the projectiles I'm not going to use an oversized slow opponent unless I know I can close the gap

[@tylercafe1260]

If the charge character couldn't do all their moves round start like the other characters they'll be at a much bigger disadvantage than the rest of the cast

[@FireflyMykah]

This isn’t a round start per say but in Skullgirls I find it interesting that for their mid round starts, the winning player keeps the health from the last life while the other player is on a new life. I find it interesting that in addition during the round start phase mid-round that players can walk. Not sure how balanced it is but I thought I’d share

[@JJGoldFalconTHELEGENDOFGOLD]

Y'know what I like? Tekken 4's round start, which before it starts allows you to move, and wavedash around, but not to attack. The only fighting game I can really think of that does this.

[@lukemacinnes5124]

I'd like to see a game treat round starts the same as picking character order in kof, where neither player know what order the other has picked until it's happened, maybe some way of picking left right or centre before the round has started. nothings ever a perfect system but this at least introduces mind games and player control at the start without the need for full movement like in melty/

[@graalcloud]

This is why they added counters to fighting games

[@josephprins1258]

You know what's really unfair is playing as Ken or Ryu in the OG SF 2 all the way to Turbo.

[@technicolormischief-maker5683]

What if for a non-airdasher, walking backward gave you some meter during round start, and walking forward removed your meter (and gave your opponent meter if you have none)? This could mitigate the problem while also adding some degree of player expression. Walking someone to the corner at round start now becomes potentially very risky if they have a powerful reversal of some kind, for example. You could even give different characters different conversion rates for meter at round start to further balance this, or even to buff weaker characters through having intentionally strong round starts.

[@whirl3690]

Then it would just be that everyone walks back, benefitting zoners the most. Meter will always be more important than center stage in the same way that center stage will always be more important than your positioning relative to the opponent.

[@Crescent-Adam]

Round start Potemkin Buster feelsbadman. But also, Round start Gold burst is a pretty sick feeling 😄