Forge World: "Better Service, Faster Shipping" - A Salty Outlook

[@TheOuterCircle]

Seriously. All I want is a little REAL talk. No more of this pussy-footing around issues. If the customer asks you what you're doing, how about you give them an answer? If you don't fucking know, find someone who does. No more of this political 'non-answer' bullshit, give us the direct answer, to the question we actually asked. Yes, I know it's salty, I know it's cynical. I know I've spoken 100 times and more about pricing, but there are still people out there defending this. Telling us "you just don't understand" and then failing to give any actual evidence. The closest they come is median wage, which is a misleading statistic unto itself. The real answer is greed, plain, simple good old fashioned greed.

[@markkinsley5017]

its fine mate we need people like you to bring this stuff to light

[@kronomos6606]

Me before the Outer Circle: I like GW. Me after the Outer Circle: My life has been a lie

[@kronomos6606]

Thank you for all the great stuff you do

[@socialanimalmedia]

I had been slowly realizing that most new GW stuff and most FW stuff is actually much closer in price thanks to price conversions than you might expect. To see this shit happen, to know that FW sees us like little wet sponges: always squeezing us harder and harder to get every last drip out of us. It's infuriating. If a $77 pound Thanatar costs more than $102 US Dollars, we are being FUCKED. I have been secretly rooting for the absolute, abysmal failure of Titanicus because - and I hate to say it - only a monumental failure will give GW any pause. I am shocked that they can do this stuff and continue to make so much money. Obviously the demand is there but I would really like to see some sort of graph that shows the changes in GWs customer base over time. If I were to bet it is that Games Workshop has evolved from selling to us as children back in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s and, knowing that *most* of us have grow'd up we now have, in general, larger disposable incomes. That is all fine and well but once we are gone GW will not have the same base of kiddies to grow with. You either have to be a rich kid, a spoiled kid, or just content yourself with something like a "Start Collecting!" Box on Christmas and Birthdays, saving up your allowance for the odd pack of models, paints or Codex.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I can't show you customer levels over time, but I can tell you how kit prices have fluctuated over time. Every time a kit goes down to about the point where the currency exchange is on-par, a process that takes 5, sometimes 10 years, they increase the price. They essentially start at a high price point, make buku profits for years off it, the margin slowly decreases, so they up the price again to go back to those higher profits.

[@leakycheese]

Good video mate, I read that statement and something about it felt wrong straight away. It’s not what they said, but what they didn’t. I’d suggest formally writing to the Chief Executive Officer, Kevin Rountree, might be the way to go. That was certainly what I did when I caught adverts running for 18+ first person shooters and gambling apps on the Horus Heresy: Drop Assault game, rated 9+ in the app store, which my kids had been playing.

[@warshak11]

they don't care if you write them lol how much hate mail do you think they got over the last chance to buy ,recasts the way to go

[@markgodfrey9604]

Maybe the key here is to raise the issues with the consumer watchdog. If Adobe got in trouble and this guy has done his research, put the proposal together and send it off .. probably more effective than complaining on here.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I've tried several times to contact the company, only to be greeted by the searing sound of silence. They don't want to talk because the answers they have are not the kind they want shown to the world. If they make it known what awful things they are doing, people would turn on them fast. So instead, they use their social media to advertise for them, and give the illusion of "we are connecting with the fans" when in reality, they don't want to connect. I find this a double shame, because I think the people running the forums, community pages etc, the people doing the day-to-day work, they probably legitimately care about the hobby and want to share it with people. It's the higher-ups, looking at numbers and going "how do we create the best margin?" that are the problem. I am sitting on dozens of emails which show FW and GW basically telling people to sod off when they complain about defects in the miniatures they've been sent, one person even had a legit Warlord titan and it had good old slimy half-cured resin and when they complained, they didn't get a good response at all. How do you deal with all this? It's a hot mess!

[@SpelliZNX]

Customer: "Forge World, can I buy this model for £40?" Forge World: "£50? You can't pay only $120!" *starts sweating, crashes through window* Forge World: "$180 is a steal! Help officers! Recasters are trying to kill me!" *runs away* *sound of bubbling finecast in the distance*

[@PaulKuykendall]

That has already been shown with the Titanicus big box MSRP in the US being set at US$ 290. That is the 175 GBP price (including VAT) with a 1.66 USD to 1 GBP exchange rate. The last time the actual exchange rate was like that was 2014. This is a US$60 price difference _before_ adding in our sales tax. Remember, in the US the listed price doesn't include sales tax, as the tax rate differs between not just states, but sometimes even cities within the same county.

[@TheOuterCircle]

State-to-state tax varies in the USA, whilst in Australia it's fixed at 10%. GW is essentially giving themselves a buffer of 30% on currency fluctuation, which to call 'huge' is an understatement.

[@joemoe974]

Macca, your comparison to a politician's answer is absolutely spot on. I have to say your videos during the past few weeks really opened my eyes about what's happening with GW and FW. Maybe my problem is that I never wanted to see it but now it's too blatant to ignore. GW does the most infuriating thing with comments and feedback. They pretend to be dumb on purpose! Just like in politics or the media. Respond to the question without really answering the question. And then quietly raise prices and claim that service will be so much superior and better. When in reality it's largely the same service but now they just gouge maximum profit from every purchase. Infuriating beyond all comprehension. Thanks for your persistence in keeping this topic alive! Good work!

[@blindlobster]

Also whatever happened to the "Warhammer Heroes?"

[@chikhai]

Theres a common misconception that when a company uses social media that they want to engage with you, the customer. They don't. Its an extension of marketing. Its free advertising, or at the very least its vastly cheaper than conventional advertising. Look at the GW/FW Facebook pages, what they post or what their responses consist of. Is there any sort of meaningful engagement with their customers? Nope. Because thats not what they're there for. When you ask a question or raise an issue on one of these pages you're talking to somebody so far down the food chain they probably don't know the answer, even if they could tell you. You're more than likely talking to someone on a slightly higher than minimum wage. They're basically an administration assistant. They're on a par with the people who answer the company's emails. All the GWIDF do in these comment sections and Facebook pages is bolster the advertising thats put out there. In fact its a common practice to have dummy/employee accounts respond to these pages to boost their level of engagement (my company does it on LinkedIn all the time). If you want any concrete information from these people you may as well shout at a banner ad or at the TV. Your results will be the same. The fluffy little trite answers they give are the social media equivalent of "have a nice day" at MacDonalds.

[@TheOuterCircle]

Very fair points. But this video is aimed as much at the fans as the company. When people say "but they engage with the community now" I have to ask, "really, do they? Because from here it looks like it's all going one-way." People don't seem to have enough critical thought to sit up and ask "what is this page actually doing here, what is it achieving?".

[@ew7d]

I've been wondering how they are charging taxes on international orders. Didn't think that was required or legal.

[@andtheinternettkills]

But you are excempt from paying VAT if you are purchasing from outside the EU single market. If you are "paying" british VAT then they are pocketing that as pure profit.

[@TheOuterCircle]

When asked, "we do not charge VAT" except it's already included in the model costs, and no taxes are added at the checkout.....

[@andtheinternettkills]

EU regulations stipulate that all prices must clearly inform about total price, including all taxes and additional charges. Second point, VAT is a consumption tax on goods used inside the EU, so exported goods are exempt. Third point, import taxes and sales taxes to the exported country can be paid upfront to a vendor but ref. the first point such additional fees must be stated. I've gone to a few British webshops just now for comparison. A shirt that costs £99 in Britain, becomes £74 once I want it shipped to my country (not inside the EU). This was also clearly stated by the vendor that non-EU countries are exempted from VAT. Now, I went to GW and looked at a Dark Elf Sorceress. British price £9, my country's price: £9,3. It's hard to know if this is fixed pricing or not, since GW isn't advertising to non-EU countries that they can get a 20% discount. But why on earth wouldn't they want to have that as a selling point? Cynical as I am, I somehow doubt that a major corporation would reduce the cost of their product by a fifth and not let me know about it. Edit: Also, there is no import fees on goods to my country that cost less than around £30, so that argument wont fly.

[@NoUseForAName06]

Forge World has a catalogue: www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/Downloads/Forge_World_Catalogue_Dec_2018.pdf These will be the prices US and EU people end up paying. It's higher than the conversion rate of course. The idea that people view this as something positive for the consumer is beyond hilarious to me.

[@AE-dk4rl]

The Primarchs are screwed. And this is in terms of US prices, not the horror show they have going on in AUS/NZ. Magnus - 80 gbp - 132 USD (101.85 GBP) - 27.31% markup Perturabo, Corax, Russ - 70 GBP - 116 USD (89.52 GBP) - 27.89% markup Guilliman, Horus - 65 GBP - 107 USD (82.57 GBP) - 27.03% markup Mortarion, Lorgar, Kurze, Vulkan, Ferrus, Fulgrim, Angron - 60 GBP - 99 USD (76.41 GBP) - 27.35% markup

[@TheOuterCircle]

Well what if the economy suddenly crashes by almost 30%.. I mean... it could happen... once in every few decades, but still!

[@AE-dk4rl]

Between this and the horrendous pricing of AT, it seems as though GW/FW have outdone even the Kirby days.

[@highconfessornicodemus1613]

I wanted to get into HH, but it seems as though the entire movement has lost steam. Some people are upset that they haven't released a book since before 8th edition, the last chance to buy fiasco has turned some away, the lack of communication, the stories of resin/ quality control issues, the stories of them being understaffed and now spread thin through the specialist game divisions. I just cant convince myself to buy anything from FW or GW until they sort all this out. I bought into Necromunda hard when it first came back, and i should have known they were just yanking my chain after i pre-ordered the boxed set and when it arrived i find out that it doesnt even come with the rule book :(

[@skywatcheradept]

Horus Heresy is definitely worth it. I play my 30k models in 40k 8ed games too. For example a Heresy contemptor dreadnought has normal rules for 8ed 40k. And you don't have to buy any of the Forge World stuff. Just buy Calth & Prospero and you have a great HH/40k 8ed army right there.

[@andrewkorzinek]

I'm so glad I live in the UK, and even still the pricing is whack when compared to other models. I feel sorry for you guys overseas that have to pay these extortionate prices for models that cost pennies to make and though unlikely I hope it becomes fair in the end

[@lazysponge]

Oh i see it now. perturabo would cost me 84 Euro except shipping i see it now perturabo atleast 90 if not 95 euro.

[@warshak11]

recast $20

[@lazysponge]

no

[@warshak11]

I use to refuse to buy recasts but im telling you they are better most of the time and way way cheaper I got knights all kinds of stuff got all 4 knights for the price of 1 from FW

[@lazysponge]

i know how recasts work but i try to support forgeworld but if the price is too much i have my recasters

[@bbcrusader2830]

warshak11 ya but some of us don't like commiting crimes just to hobby

[@gideondaboi3894]

My buddies and I here in America were planing on buying a bunch of FW stuff when the point dipped below USD (as it seems if very well will), and less than two weeks later this happens. Me thinks GW had the same thought we did.

[@vx345]

To be honest i think i might just buy the majority of my forgeworld minis from recasters now if they keep this up.

[@Storlans]

I have a question does australia not have import taxes on goods from gb?

[@TheOuterCircle]

It does, but all our taxes combined are less than just the VAT alone!

[@cyrilbarthelemyguillaumesc17]

Cynic on : how the "city" work With comonwealth

[@cypher545]

Macca dropping the truth bombs. Between this and the insane pricing on Titanicus I will be doing my GW shopping with our fairly priced neighbors in the East.

[@AdaptiveCaesar]

I’m thinking with how this is going to go I’ll switch to purely Chinese knock offs May take twice as long to build, but I’ll pay maybe a fifth of the money

[@Its_Dave_Just_Dave]

Its just like the new Adeptus Titanicus, the poor Aussies still have to pay *before flgs discount) 490AUD (£280) and New Zealanders 580NZD (£301+)

[@blindlobster]

Has "The Outer Circle" or any player/gamer tried/played "Dark Heresy 2," "Black Crusade" or "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2.0?" Are those games more (or equally) enjoyable? They seemed cheaper overall. I would love any sensible feedback. My thanks to any-one who politely replies.

[@crackedhammer4612]

blindlobster I prefer 40k role play over tabletop

[@Simas1234]

Salty outlook shold have been the name of this channel

[@TheOuterCircle]

Nah, being the little guy on the fringe pushed away from the main group for the negativity suits us just fine.

[@adamfox1669]

I can see re-cast market in Russian Federation will be getting my new business

[@cultistmeat-shield]

The issue is that Games Workshop is often treated as a big company when, realistically, it isn't. They have a factory in Nottingham where they make all of their models, and given that, in the grand scheme of things, the number of people that are buying these models is fairly small (especially for the lord of the rings models), they don't benefit from the macroeconomics that makes shipping so cheap for companies like apple so a considerable price increase in foreign countries is to be expected. Also, when comparing forge world prices you didn't factor in the considerable shipping costs (it's 12% in the uk, I don't know whether it's the same or higher for people elsewhere in the world) but those would reduce the apparent disparity. I will agree that their communication needs to improve though.

[@brianfrazee584]

It is salty and cynical, but it's pretty spot on. I come here for my dose of salt anyway, so I'm happy to consume. Their profit margins must be pretty skewed toward international sales. You know what the worst part is though Macca? The fact that people are banding together on social media (facebook groups, etc) to shame and silence people who try to have a conversation about the prices. Someone brings it up, and about 4 people reply with "make more money you lazy sob" before the admins delete the post because they don't want anyone to discuss the pricing. It's in the group posting rules as an "off limits topic" in at least one major facebook group, you know which one I mean. That's the worst part to me, the utter brainwashing that is going on in the fan base that the pricing isn't even something that can be debated and discussed.

[@lund5869]

Brian Frazee the lack of critical thinking in general among the fan base fan base is ridiculous. It's almost cult like in some circles

[@TheOuterCircle]

Brian, what you've said is very true. Part of why this channel was started is that we didn't feel the needs of everyday people were being represented. Every time a debate was shaped around pricing, lore changes, power creep etc. admins across every forum would just shoot it down, and the people with legitimate gripes were silenced by a very vocal group who say "if you don't like it, don't play" "it's their game, they can do what they like with it" "just deal with it" etc. So I started this page, and for 3 years we've weathered the heat, copped the abuse for pointing out things, and when we gave factual, evidence based reasoning, we get told "well, you don't understand basic economics" or other non-arguments all designed to silence us. But it didn't work, we are still here and we still provide a platform for the little guy to have their say about what's affecting them in the hobby.

[@ONI09100]

i over hear the same conversation most times i walk into my local independent hobby store so its a big topic that needs addressing.

[@Dylan-em4wi]

This is genuinely grade-A bonkers mate. I thought the American conversion rates were bad...I feel so bad for the Aussie community, haha. Vote with your dollars, buy from recasters?

[@ONI09100]

best comment on the forge world face book post was something like china should do well out of this lol

[@shvagyerpl]

Looking forward to the BattleTech video.

[@dopeskone]

Will they drop the VAT?

[@Sephvion]

You know better than that.

[@DustyTheKitty]

Will they bollocks.

[@dopeskone]

Anvil didn't charge me VaT

[@sethharley5557]

My daily dose of sodium, great video mate

[@jas25ace]

I hate that you will be right on this as a New Zealander. Honestly think my heresy collection will not expand now as I don't buy recast.

[@TheOuterCircle]

It might, you never know what will come in plastic, or such.

[@minimundus1712]

The super awsome limited Titanicus Box cost 290 dollar XD its one the BOLS site God i need 10 of them.....

[@charlieclifton-brown3729]

I just wish they would reduce the amount you need to buy before getting free shipping, that's what I want to be better about shipping

[@Chewie260]

i did some, we can call it theory crafting, around the mammoth thing u are showing and it seems i got the amount close to the prices with the america one being 10% cheaper than it should be and the the Australian being about 10% too expenive, ontop of the fact that i was being really generous and applied the australian GST 10% tariff onto it to just to get it close. imgur.com/a/nurnotS

[@Chewie260]

also i am using the milk price for the earings

[@TheOuterCircle]

Just remember, you have to take the listed price in pounds, REMOVE the VAT and labour, shipping etc. as that's a part of the uk cost, and then you have to re-add tax, labour, shipping for the country it's going to, and then do your conversion.

[@Chewie260]

The Outer Circle considering the size of Australia and people density the assumption is the cost of labour/transportation is probably higher so by not changing it, it results in an overall lower cost, and vat/global trade is the legitimate issue but I was trying to understand couple of Australia, USA and British government website articles on it, but I just could not figure out how that worked but I would not be surprised if the extra cost would be because of some bizzare law/regulation of luxury goods aka " gov dosn't give a fuck ur little shitty plastic men cost too much". Other reason for the increased cost might be low sales in a region, not caused by recasts or anything like that, that's not what I am saying, but the lower people density might be influencing the costs of shipping stuff around Australia and large backlogs can be created if not enough people are buying the stuff, if the stuff is not sold its wasted production cost that has to be made up for. A good example of this would be things like newspapers where alot of, atleast my local newspapers, are just disappearing nowdays because sales have plummeted and stores return 80-90% of them unsold. Only newspapers remaining afloat are the big national ones which can just charge more and keep the people buying and use the profit from it to account for losses in returns. My assumption is that usa prices are just a bit more that they should be probs about 5% accounting for the shipping and other fees and Australian are so much more because of mismanagement rather than malice, too many shops open in bad places causing too many loses leading to idiots who put the shops there to raise prices to account for it. So there are two solutions except malice I have in my head, first the idiocy of management, secondly the be it tariff/import fee on the very much luxury good. It also could be just GW being dicks but... Why? In long term it would hurt that market and if the installment base is small enough like aus it would be a much better idea to grow that market and then do it. Australias population is 1/3 of UK's at x3 the size.

[@TheOuterCircle]

Transportation is 3c per box from the UK to Aus, and another 2c per box to any store. Interestingly, they actually make a LOT of sales in Australia, 4x more than the rest of the pacific and about half as much as the USA, but the USA is an expanding market whilst Australia is shrinking if anything. As for the laws/regulations, GW coming into Australia isn't taxed anywhere near as much as the VAT. In theory if the VAT was removed and then imported, GW products would be cheaper here than the UK, if only marginally. But they don't operate like that.

[@Chewie260]

"Tax is an issue for all companies, and in Australia those importing high value products have to take particular care when setting prices and working out profit margins. There is a broad-based consumption tax of 10% on most goods and services. Goods worth more than AUS$1,000 require a customs import declaration, which requires the importer to pay duty, tax - usually at 10% - and a customs import processing fee." www.theguardian.com/small-business-network/2012/jul/30/exporting-to-australia-tips www.gov.uk/guidance/exporting-to-australia The issue with that it openly states in the GOV article its illegal to charge vat. The reason i am so adement that there are extra fees, for these exports, is because of the very existence of the EU. Eu is suppose to be a free trade agreement, by design, but if there isn't some or any massive fees from other nations i would be very confused about the reason for why it even exists. we know there is a flat 10% on imported goods, there are some licensing costs, and from the sound of it there are also 10% fees on exports valued above $1000 coming in and thats just the couple of starting paragraphs.

[@OzymandiasRex]

Forgeworld's shipping policy is already garbage but this is ridiculous. If you buy 1 tranfer sheet it's 16 pounds plus 2,40 shipping, If you buy 2 its 32 pounds plus 4,80 shipping. For a fucking second piece of paper in the envalope they just fucking double the price of shipping! WTF!? That being said, I'll be stocking up before this change hits or they take the fucking things out of production.

[@ablacklegionmarine7167]

Fuck it, I'll just buy more recast. If they can play dirty so can I.

[@Mikey__R]

Hey. Just to be fair to GW, all British businesses are facing huge uncertainty at the moment, nobody knows what's going to happen in March when we leave the EU. Any company registered in England and Wales, that does most of its business overseas, will need to mitigate the risk of a large recession in the UK and a run on the pound. I'm sorry, but Brexit is screwing the Brits who will want to buy food way more than foreigners wanting to buy little mans.

[@TheOuterCircle]

In which case you'd market your product POST-Brexit, not pre-Brexit. As for Breit itself, looks pretty bungled from here, the UK has the whole globe waiting to trade but your politicians are throwing you under the bus to please Europe.

[@Mikey__R]

The Outer Circle, what do you mean post Brexit? If GW waited till after we leave, with the possibility of the roads and the ports being jammed with tailbacks at customs, they wouldn't be able to move product. They need to act now, with an increased investment in their US operation. Screwing the rest of the world on price is a juicy bonus. In business, when you have to look after investors, it's all about mitigating risk. Share holders demand that effective steps are taken to mitigate the risk of anything getting in the way of global trade over the transition. That's how you keep your share price high. Yeah, 78% of us over here are pissed off at how our government have handled Brexit. 15 months in, they're still haggling amongst themselves. I didn't want to leave the single market, but if we had a deal then at least we could still access it as an outsider. Emperor save us from ideologues!

[@Alpha-Omega-TFOA]

Brexit ain't happening, mate. May is a coward.

[@Mikey__R]

Hi hitokiriizo, I hope you're right. If we're not going to do it properly, lets not do it at all. But in the mean time, GW and similar manufacturers of luxury goods are going to continue to derisk.

[@ONI09100]

you dont make profit buy alienating the majority of your customers. and if you think Brexit will be as bad as you make out it would make more sense to strengthen ties outside the EU. America Australia New zealand dont care about the EU they are all looking to make more trade with Brittan post Brexit so putting up a massive pay wall would bite them in the ass. its funny/frustrating necromunda gave me the first reason to actually spend money on forge world now even that is going to be hard to sway me. speaking of necromunda, i dont know how any one else feels about their supplementary release but if they had put one book out for the normal 40K rule book price of $80 rather then $49x5+ plus mandatory card supplements I probably would have spent more over all on the minis.

[@benn1181]

B U T D I D Y O U S E E T I T A N I C U S ?

[@socialanimalmedia]

Nooooooooo

[@NoUseForAName06]

I think you are being unrealistic when you expect any company to openly communicate their reasons for upping prices. There is no good reason for this (other than "we have a responsibility to our shareholders to maximize profits", which is answer nobody would be satisfied with) so they won't do it. No company has ever done this and talking like it would solve anything is a waste of time IMO. These are the realities of a capitalist society that we operate in and it's not exclusive to GW. Hell, you even give examples like Apple who also artificially inflate their prices. You think they have gave a reason for this? Talking about these companies saying that "they don't have the balls" to openly admit what they are doing is missing the point. It's like complaining that the rain is wet. The issue you are having isn't really with an individual company but with the free market.

[@TheOuterCircle]

I may be crossing a few wires here, but it's the fact they don't give straight answers in general. Pricing is but one point. Last Chance To Buy always gets the same cut-paste response when people want to know what the hell is happening, what product is going next. If they spend their magic beans on minis this week, and something equally as important goes OOP the next week, and they just spent their beans they are screwed. People don't like being in the dark, it makes for nervous customers, not excited ones.

[@kronomos6606]

Thats no excuse, now is it?

[@01oo011]

I hope you’re wrong... you probably won’t be but I really hope you are this time...

[@cronlv16]

You should really consider changing the soundtrack on your videos up a bit. Listening to the same 9 notes over again is boring as fuck.

[@Julian-xr5db]

Seems the Jew Kirby spirit is still very strong at Forgeworld. No Fires&Malevolence book and no Sang model so my friends and I are not buying anything soon and we prefer Chinacast these days anyway

[@NoUseForAName06]

Nice job bringing fucking antisemitism into the discussion you numbnut.

[@benrunciman4399]

I think you're forgetting the people in between that clip their tickets. we have the same problem herein NZ