What Would a More narrative 40K Look like?

We chat to 40K gaming hero Liam Dempsey! We talk playing 40K, getting rid of re-rolls? and loads more. Make sure you give Liam a follow here: ‪@LiamDempsey40k‬
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[@LiamDempsey40k]

Thanks so much for having me on team. You guys are amazing. Absolute pleasure.

[@natashakerensky9406]

Liam and everyone is right. Enjoying time with your loved ones no matter what the activity, is the most important thing to have as you’ll never forget in your head or heart.

[@matthayward7889]

Loved it mate. The stories about the secret gaming club on base had me cracking up!

[@Rolfus]

Hey it's that one guy

[@DaronSchmit]

Hearing you talk about kids, imagination, and DnD, you should check out Fighting Fantasy. I've heard good things, apparently they're kind of a "Choose your own adventure" series fantasy books by one of the early founders of workshop

[@Psychichazard]

Can confirm, Black Bomber is the best. I can also strongly recommend Ben Gunn with Chives if you're feeling daring.

[@Kirioth]

So happy you've got Liam on, he's one of the soundest guys in the community

[@FooLmanUF]

It's so good to see that not only the lore-commissar and super-competitive approach exists. There should be more emphasis on the fun part of the game.

[@terraneaux]

Right, but purposefully making dumb moves (like running your Khorne berzerkers off an objective) doesn't necessarily make for more "fun." Competition can definitely be fun if everyone's being sporting.

[@FooLmanUF]

It depends on the way you - and your opponent- wants to play. In a more narrative, more role-play like setting you wouldn't put berzerkers on guard duty, as - by their nature - they will run off the first time there is something to kill.

[@miwicpmiwicp8074]

Geoff's actions ideas are inspired, I love the idea that they'd affect the gameplay rather than just scoring points.

[@thepaintingphase]

Cheers - Geoff

[@BrokenKrayon]

You guys should scribble the idea out and play a game ! Would be interesting to watch

[@simonpark843]

I enjoy these 'lengthy conversation' videos as much as the actual painting tutorials. You guys continue to entertain and impress me.

[@volkarve]

Geoff was on fire this episode! I laughed so hard at his quips. Great video as always guys cheers!

[@thepaintingphase]

Legend!

[@WardenOfTerra]

He can finally rant about his military career to somebody that can relate lmao

[@AubLambe]

We have roundabouts in Canada, I love them. they are a joy to cycle through.

[@namewastaken360]

Liam's plan for finding Alpharius is the same as Tyrion's plan to find out who was spying for Cerci.

[@paulbarnes8905]

Need some egg boxes on the walls here! Much love x

[@jules9094]

Hey guys. Mediocre Hobbies has one of the easiest painting styles to follow. Painted my whole Salamanders army following his techniques that he used for Adrax Agatone. Worth a watch

[@k12frosty77]

Great show . Mr Dempsey on form as always. Keep up the good work!

[@danny3tricks377]

Welcome to the supermarket phase 😂😂 Love these awesome little tangents

[@RickJagger13]

hell yeah we got Liam!!!! 🙌🏼

[@minimaher82]

Had the pleasure of meeting Mr the Liam Dempsey last year at WHW. In person he's exactly as he is on camera, which is always a good sign to my mind!

[@Firedoomcaster]

See, I’ve seen so many tournament players complain that tenth edition has rejected tournament play for narrative. And I went to a massive narrative game using tenth and it was so much fun, re-rolls and all. My old one eye was directly in front of a gun line of tanks, Lemun Russ’s, Shadowswords, baneblades, you name it. They all targeted him. They got him down to 1 wound through killing his unit, then through his feel no pain roll. But then one Commissar lifted his pistol, shot him in the head and I failed his save and his feel no pain roll. The whole table cheered, including me. :)

[@SgtMaj22]

I love my weekly dose of the "Old World" You Tubes. As a guy living in the New World (read as Canada) I love listening to the chill conversation on Side Tracked, reminds me of friends sitting around chewing the fat. Keep up the good work!

[@pjfisher82]

Just found you guys through Liam, such a great chat and very insightful. Will be subscribing and watching more of these

[@clockmonkey]

Watched the whole thing over several days and really enjoyed it. Loved it.

[@puppaz8210]

Liam's a great watch, enjoy listening to him just chatting on his stream.

[@green_manc]

The beard display is glorious! Patricks rocking the grizzly adams meets gomez adams

[@namewastaken360]

My wife writes me a list when I go to the shops. I normally leave it in the kitchen and she then has to send me a picture of it...

[@zramirez5471]

1) I've been not just listening but watching this whole time, and I still don't understand how we got to wolves in Yellowstone and Operation Beaver Drop! 2) My very favorite episodes are the ones where Warhammer becomes the accidental tangent XD Love you Liam!

[@andrewdickinson1041]

The story about the secret Warhammer bunker on camp just sounds like the Lodges in the Heresy era legions 😂

[@edwilson5727]

i cannot say...

[@hipettyhop]

Great to see Josh, The Warhipster get a shout out! Such a lovely guy and a true talent ☺

[@galtshobbycorner]

I love these long episodes, it takes me days to watch and I use them to help me fall asleep haha

[@The_Kazarian]

The two creators in the hobby space I support collaborating is a delightful Sunday treat

[@daemonnexusknight]

This was a pleasure to watch/listen to. Made my work day better. :)

[@retropixel2000]

Something quite interesting in warhammer is that there's quite a divide in how meta and winrates are percieved, been playing tcgs for like 10 years lots of them tend to communicate like "this deck can win a locals", "this deck can top a tournament", the only ones that sorta do it are the Art of War guys, but if you're not into competitive you aren't watching them at all. I think that also creates a divide in the community since a lot of people see a bad winrate and feel discouraged even if their "bad and undertuned army" could win their matches in locals

[@AtticsTV]

Stat Check does this pretty well where they won’t just break down win rates, but extra stats, as well as the win rates based on bottom, mid, and top tables. It was here where you see Ad Mech doing really well at bottom (casual) tables then falling off as you get competitive. And this matches my experience: I win a lot of casual games as ad mech. (Note: does not change that the army is unfun on top of non competitive)

[@carlofhodgy1501]

This Liam guy is the most relatable Warhammer celeb I’ve watched!

[@FrankieRogersArt]

Yet again another great episode that has introduced me to another awesome creator. Thanks guys!

[@Stormhierta]

Garage-hammer is the BEST Warhammer. We love Narrative Gaming, we do Tournaments, but having fun with your mates is the KEY and if anything Liam's group showcases that diversity.

[@jonasmoody5750]

Loved this chat! I’m definitely in both the narrative and competitive camps, and it’s good to hear discussion that there’s room in the hobby for both.

[@THX-to6gg]

I’ve given up on every GW ruleset with the exception of MESBG and Space Hulk , I find One Page Rules meets my simple needs.

[@alexbransgrove9966]

Great episode guys!!

[@lamicrobio...engros5427]

That was an amazing talk, it made my day ^^

[@OfficialObsidianGrey]

Kinda blown away by how much cheaper bread is in the UK than in the USA

[@Glatius]

Damn such a long episode but I was enthralled the whole way, great job everyone as always :)

[@Rob-nq6br]

I would love for you guys to try the One Page Rules games (Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy) and see your thoughts on them. They have rejuvenated my "40K" gaming as I get to actually push my toys around without carrying a library with me.

[@jsseehorn]

I definitely agree about having Unit cards that don't change constantly. If they want to keep the update/balancing schedule they could sell a small pack of USR/Keyword cards to go with them that they can update the rules on and replace them easier and cheaper quickly. Even better if they would offer them via PDF so they could be downloaded and printed off whenever they want to update or correct them. Since they seem to want to switch to more subscription models the PDFs could be available as live documents for subs (don't love this idea but if you could avoid buying and carrying around books it might be worth it.)

[@TheDysartes]

I played Napoleonic's when I was in the Army, and most of my mates didn't know because they'd have just taken the mick. So a lot of the guys I played with were officers and I was a Gunner, a lot of the time I ended up painting their minis, at the time I started working in the Sgt's Mess behind the bar and on quiet nights I'd paint 1/72 minis. Then I found out two Sgt's use to be big wargamers, and we started gaming on a Wednesday night as it was quiet. I'd still be covering the bar and playing, eventually it went from just the three of us to half a dozen and Wednesday night got busier lol... So I got less games in.... On the topic of Xmas movies, First Blood is a Christmas movie, it's set during the festive season and therefore it's a Christmas movie.

[@Bucket_Boy101]

Geoff's talking about his former military rigidity in supernarkets made me realise why my old man prganised his shopping list by how things were organised in the supermarket. Hes a Vietnam Vet.

[@Andy__H]

Doesn’t everyone do that…? 😁

[@thesigmaritepainter7803]

Fantastic podcast as always!

[@WorldBleeder]

This had me laughing throughout the episode, really enjoyed it. Thanks all!

[@Taranthis]

Pat, your roundabout joke was not unappreciated :D I loved it.

[@Rob-nq6br]

Great interview! Always love hearing how other people play away from the tournament scenes. Tbf with Aliens, they are meant to be cocky, over confident and not actually done any real combat. Everyone has a plan until a xenomorph takes off your head.

[@CygnusMaximusXIII]

I live in an area where they repopulate places with planes, and they actually put the animals in a big crate with a parachute attached to a slack line to deploy it. There's a mechanism on the crate that opens it when it lands so the animals can get out. It's surprisingly straightforward.

[@reg2356]

Great to see presenters of two of my favourite channels in the same stream 🙂

[@carlofhodgy1501]

See all the painting phase team playing some garage hammer with Mr Liam?

[@simonb7711]

Nothing beats the security guards outside the 24hr Greggs in Newcastle!

[@carlstanford7607]

Great guest. Would love to see Valrak on too. Great job lads

[@zramirez5471]

Please no - Valrak is such a GW simp I think he actually believes the Ultramarines are the best part of 40k... no disrespect to him, I just can't. All the worse for me as NO ONE has the level of insider info that he does

[@drathlor]

Please dear god no Valrak simping.

[@ChapterMasterValrak]

​@@zramirez5471 Yeah screw him, he's definitely a GW psy-op inserted into the 40K fandom to misinform about the latest rumours!

[@DavosTheDegen]

@@ChapterMasterValrak I hate that Valrak guy, what a shill

[@ChapterMasterValrak]

@@DavosTheDegen I say we wait for him in the GW Car park and deck him!

[@DaronSchmit]

Something I've come started to do when it comes to folks posting their models or seeing them in person is to compliment them on something, regardless of how they look. Maybe asking them a couple questions about how they liked the process to get them talking. If and only if they ask for feedback, you ask what they want feedback on, then offer it. As a painter, especially a starting painter, there's nothing worse than being proud of a mini and someone picks apart something you tried really hard at. Sure they didn't know and sure they didn't mean anything by it, but it still sucks. And if you can't think of anything, just a "Nice! Those look great! There's nothing better than having a painted force on the table!" Boom. Done. I once painted a mini for my first competition (a theoden on horse). I tried really hard to make it look as good as the box art. The first thing that was said to me about the mini from a judge was "this looks like a gaming mini, not a competition mini". What a buzz kill. Was he right? Yeah. Should I have braces myself for rough feedback? Yeah. Could it have been a better experience. Yeah. In any case, great episode!

[@CityofLight11]

I know this is the better option of the two, but personally the knowledge that this approach is also widespread means that I feel like any negative feedback = person thinks mini is shit, any positive feedback = person is being polite, thinks mini is shit. But this is heavily anxiety flavoured.

[@pineomt]

Great convo

[@adamcarpenter7890]

There definitely is a show to be had in Operation Beaverdrop, HBO’s Band of Beavers

[@garyjenson1326]

I loved the old studio I kinda felt like it was a member of the cast. I liked the tighter shots and package interruptions.😅

[@SuperbYoghurt]

I'm so glad liam mentioned that about instagram hobbyists making content with their free minis every release, it's almost a taboo topic.

[@thelonelybolter8245]

1:01:03 12/10 here for Geoff ecology facts. That circle of life is sweeeeeet ;)

[@thepaintingphase]

😂😂😂 - Geoff

[@the_0rdinary]

About the whole conversation around 40k being all about scoring points and not about having "fun", it really just all depends around what your definition of fun is. I, personally, really enjoy the tactical and strategic side of the game and really really like having to think about what I'm going to do to score points and block my opponent from scoring points. That's fun for me, and I love 10th's ruleset for that. You don't, and that's okay, it just seems like the conversation was veering towards a "fun is only ever about narrative moments and tournament/competitive players aren't having fun, they're just in it to win" direction.

[@Dementia55372]

1:05:21 : "I've only ever played 40k but I'm starting to branch out into [names 3 other GW games]"

[@Chaplain_Dazzler]

Oooh stuck in Belfast airport for 3 hrs, this'll do!! 👍

[@billdoor1569]

me and my brother were on a recruitment drive in Chilwell just down the hill from the Gym near the carpark and gatehouse, we were chatting away and an CSM comes down and says hello to my brother then pretty much knife hands me "you the warhammer fella", Yes I say thinking he is about to take the piss, nope, "excellent, lets go for a walk and talk" Afterwards my brother tells me he has known him for 5 years and they have barely spoken a word, the power of Warhams.

[@evulutionofgaming]

So let down the title wasn't the man with the majestic beard. lol Great Episode.

[@Blacknight8850]

My best story about falling asleep watching movies is the one time I tried watching _Apocalypse Now._ I managed to fall asleep as Willard was leaving on the boat to go assassinate Colonel Kurtz, and woke up as he was arriving at Kurtz' compound, and didn't realise I'd fallen asleep! I was sat there as the credits rolled going "Wasn't there meant to be a war in this movie? What happened to the "smell of napalm in the morning" and all that?"

[@LokeBroken]

Great as always guys! 😁✌🏻 love listening to u guys when I hobby! U should have the guys from “Look out Sir” podcast as guest! 😁👍🏻 keep up the great work! And happy new year!

[@imalu5757]

I remember from the warseer days there was a couple of guys that clearly had insider information and “leaked” all the upcoming fantasy releases including the mythical dwarf tank

[@Mortys_Toilet_Attendant]

Half bricks being chucked out of a flyer is an awesome idea for an Ork flyer in Old World 😂

[@christopherwarden1949]

1:58:10 SMH LOL about you guys talking about driving, traffic, and about the how the roads are laid out. I drive semi-truck in the U.S.A. and kept thinking you haven’t even scratched the surface of that topic. Roundabouts have been used in States for decades. When I was in the U.K. last May, I drove in Ireland, Scotland, England, & Wales. I found some roundabouts to be just painted on the roadway. I didn’t recognize the first one we came upon. I wonder what you’ll think about having to do a Michigan left turn? I didn’t find driving to be difficult there, as us Michiganders tend to us the whole road as needed. The trick is to get use to oncoming traffic in the lane you’re use to driving in, in the states.

[@BecauseOfDragons]

Superb chat. Loved the narrative discussion. Will be taking that on board for my games

[@teessidetyrants1989]

Another great show. Cheers gents.

[@jackpopinski8330]

LIAM thanks for sending me this way!! Bombardment

[@davegarghan6180]

Totally agree on the re-roll mechanic. We house ruled it out of all ours games and it makes more wow moments for sure!

[@Sam-vs2es]

Warhammer Ipswich claims another! I learnt there as a kid in the early 2000s too :)

[@mattgroditski3547]

Get this man some streaking grime. It will change his world

[@zimagic]

Favourite War: The Australian Emu War. Hands down.

[@mikeybrokie1516]

about time!

[@angelofmalice0]

Don’t normally watch the show but I’ve really enjoyed this one. I am of the opinion that there are no leaks coming out of games workshop, and it’s all intentional.

[@daveblythscum]

i managed a couple of tours down to the falklands loads of hobby and gaming down there they have a club and everything.

[@MHR1001]

Thanks for another good video, loving this chewing the fat format at the moment. 👍

[@wolfhartangbarar2433]

round about is always the better option... self regulation vs time loss via traffic light

[@joshgrillo2482]

Sidetracked- my favorite show!

[@Mr_Stuey]

Another great chat. I agree with the weekend bombardment online. I now don't look at the models that people post because of the over saturation of the same stuff. It has the opposite effect for me and I simply see the content now as corporate and very samey. Which is a shame as some great stuff out there on the new releases but it's now swamped with posts of the same stuff. Or the posts of....I have all this stuff to promote but not built it yet, but the fear of not putting something online in the wave means there I lose interest

[@davydatwood3158]

I don't know if Geoff remembers, but Stargrunt II focuses heavily on what would be called "narrative" play today. either a GM or the two players agree on what the mission is for each side, and what constitutes a full victory, partial victory, or loss. And, like in the real world, it is possible for both sides win, or both sides to lose. It really reminds me of the stories of the origin of D&D - Gygax and others were apparently running this big World War 2 minis game at tournaments, and there would be all sorts of tiny little "factions" with very narrative goals, down to things like "you are playing the post office, you have three figures, you win if you can get into base contact with the leader of at least 4 of the 6 major forces (in order to deliver a letter)." Stargrunt's target priority rules are also very much assuming a "friendly" game between reasonable people: a unit will always engage the enemy unit that is a) in line of sight; b) in the least cover, and c) presents the most danger. That last is, of course, entirely subjective. Obviously the core rules are very different between the two games, but these general concepts could easily be adopted into any "garagehammer" game.

[@thepaintingphase]

Stargrunt is a great rules system, probably my favourite sniper rules, I’ve ever played.

[@anthonyplayter2981]

How to make 40k more narrative: WD 296 had an amazing objective based scenario generation system; the Dark Millennium section of the 4th ED rulebook; create some random tables to roll on - weather, random deployment setups ect...; or even get a 3rd party to create a situation. Off note, the AOF: regiments scenarios (advanced) are brilliant.

[@angryv7217]

What a pleasure it is to see Liam. I don’t get to watch live streams so I’ve missed his content since early dvtv days.

[@ElAhrem]

Guys, is there a possibility of giving a mention to the Great Emu War of Australia in the 1930s. It's just as random as Operation Beaverdrop but a famous Australian military defeat, and wasn't even facing a human enemy! Nab: Australians are the only nation which actually eats the animals featured on its crest.

[@stainsbykingsby1889]

To chime in on the narrative or ‘moments’ of playing 40K, I went up against a friend of mine who plays Imperial Knights with my Necrons. I knew going in I was going to be wrecked, but it was ‘to defend the Tomb World’ etc. and ended with a Knight, punching my Silent King to death and causing a chain explosion between all of my castled up vehicles 🤣 we still laugh about that months later! (And no command re-rolls were used)

[@SirFluffy100]

As an OPR player, i love laughing at all your struggles

[@green_manc]

Liams life feels so like mine, running the store and my partner running her business sitting down to watch something for an hour cos were sitting for a meal at 10 is all too reals

[@danielkochis5133]

HeroQuest Thursdays! Do it! You know you want to.

[@magnusmillerwilson]

I can't even tell you how SPOT ON the description of teenagers is. Like cats, communicate like Geonosans, etc. I laughed so hard.

[@DaronSchmit]

An interesting note about old CRT TVs and graphics is that due to the way the pixels are showed, resolutions seem sharper on those TVs than the same resolution on modern LCDs, OLEDs, etc...

[@leeksveeks4572]

Liam being on the show made me feel like when you’re introducing friends to each other and hoping they get on. Needn’t have worried. Great show all. Can’t wait for future collabs!

[@danuk459]

Please can you expand your "Guest Interviews" playlist? Its only got one in and given these don't have the title "Sidetracked", they're a bit harder to find if you're not sure who's already been on

[@thepaintingphase]

Fair point, we’ll look into it.

[@dhaosandy]

Specifically in Warhammer, if you use a larger base, that's disadvantaging yourself, if you use a smaller base then you are giving yourself an advantage, not much, it amounts to +1 attack, at most. Unless your models lap round (don't think this is in Old World rules).

[@ernstbergerbrent]

I like how Liam focuses on the fact that you can play house rules in your narrative games. Competitive play can be intimidating.

[@Frantik33]

wow I am doing the exact opposite to Liam's advice. I am starting an ad mech army 🤣. Just love the models

[@itsallpointless6501]

Patrick still needs a Mohawk, even more now

[@celestiallions4050]

Most of the places where I'm seeing roundabouts introduced in the US are places where they want to reduce people's speeding

[@DarkB7ade]

About Rebel Moon: On the one hand, it's cool to see some 40k influences in film, on the other hand, it feels like they did the costume design by plugging the guard codex into one of those "what 40k would look like in the 80's" A.I filters. It's cool to see that stuff, but it feels lazy for a big budget film!

[@user-gh5jw4xb5g]

Loved the discussion about narrative play. But it doesn't sound like you've got a problem with 10th edition, the problem is with the Leviathan Mission pack. I've played loads of games of 10th but never played any game from the mission pack. We either make up our own missions, use modified ones from previous editions etc. It would be great to see more sharing of homebrew missions.

[@benytreeide568]

As an American I can confirm that roundabouts are all around where I live. They seem to help traffic flow better in some areas, but I there are other areas where it doesn't help.

[@benwooding1311]

They're the right solution for certain types of junction and traffic flow. They sort of rely on all 4 directions Not having cars arrive at the same time.