So you've played Twilight Struggle, What Next? - The Players' Aid

[@misomiso8228]

2:45 1960:Making of a President 6:09 Washingtons War 9:39 13 Days 11:54 Fort Sumter 15:22 Cuba Libre 21:32 Triumph and Tragedy 25:40 Wilderness War 30:51 Churchill 36:08 Liberty of Death 40:40 Labryinth 46:50 Here I Stand 50:10 Empire of the Sun 57:08 Fire in the Lake

[@javierferreyra106]

thanks you!!!

[@nickvandam1214]

So many war games

[@Woow_Dude]

Thanks

[@erichabich7009]

Honorable mention: Play Twilight Struggle again. It’s just that good. Love the list, lots of solid choices.

[@markherman50]

Phormio is the 'Bot for Pericles, Erasmus is now Erasmus v2.0. Signed Mike Herman (aka Mark Herman)

[@drbasseri]

My new favorite KZbin channel. Not only entertaining, but also smart. Great job!

[@akkvik]

Ah - the shock and horror of 31:22 when it turns out the lid is not in the same orientation as the back! ;) Nice vid!

[@ThePlayersAid]

Truly, a level of barbarity known only to hobbyists. For this I apologize.

[@Skyrider68]

Nice discussion, guys. Only things missing were a shout out for 1989 (take it for a spin if you can get a copy), and a prominent portrait of Mark Herman hanging in the background. :-) Such great games!

[@jamesmhebert]

Hey! You’ve tightened up the shot! Nice change, and the sound is clearer by virtue of being closer, too. Great episode and nice to be “sitting at the table” in the conversation. Really apropos content topic, too. Thank you!

[@buseyhead]

Very good episode gentlemen, this is probably one of the best videos on intro strategy war themed games, Excellent, a lot of my favorite games you have talked about.

[@qayed]

Thank you for all the great videos. This channel has been a major help in discovering those amazing war games. I’ve been playing board games for 12 years, mostly heavy euros and miniature war games like ice & fire and Blood rage. I’ve discovered those games by a chance while playing an 18xx! I went online to find more 18xx games and ended up finding war games. After months of research and trying out games. I’m 90% playing war games now. I can’t believe it took 12 years for me to discover this amazing world. I hope it grows more and more. Your channel is exactly what this needs. Thank you again for introducing us to those games.

[@tommessig2060]

Here I Stand is awesome, played with 6 players and it was great, being able to have the diplomatic phase was vital and exciting.

[@tolkienismaster]

Nothing to do with Twilight Struggle, the Cold War or GMT, but Hannibal -Rome vs Carthage should be next.

[@johnsy4306]

Not a bad suggestion. I like Hannibal.

[@killercd7682]

Excellent again thanks. Saw a 6 player game of Here I Stand being played last weekend at the Winter Games Fest (Hobart). Looked amazing.

[@ThePlayersAid]

That's a big game we want to get played with many as well.

[@funzo3505]

A "So you've played Undaunted: Normandy, What Next?" would make an excellent video! Plenty of new wargamers coming in thanks to this game!

[@ThePlayersAid]

Weirdly enough we shot and introductory wargames video last night. It's not QUITE what you described but includes undaunted, snd gives other introductory examples.

[@funzo3505]

The Players Aid excited! Can’t wait!

[@LetsPlayHistory]

Thumbs up for "13 Days"! i really like that it is, despite beeing mechanicly simple and easy to pick up, able to give such a good idea of the tensions of the cold war. In addition, with all the little background infos on the cards and the supplement included, it should even work very well as an educational game for people and students who don't know much about the era to get an idea of the complex events during the first third of the cold war. Great design!

[@KabukiKid]

13 Minutes is even good, as well. :-)

[@johnbrown6230]

Thanks for your recommendations. This is very helpful. 13 Days, Cuba Libre or Labyrinth will be probably my next pick.

[@evidentside]

Really enjoy these longer 'theme' videos, more like a show than a vox pop on one game. Great blatherings as ever!

[@evidentside]

"I love the smell of napalm in my games" - Grant.

[@derMikester]

Great review and commentary guys. Cheers - Mike

[@Kili121416]

Great review guys. As a mainly solo player, unfortunately will probably not play most of them.

[@JohnPywtorak]

Great picks and I can’t wait to get play most. Recently I heard Mark Herman on a podcast, Three moves ahead 445, and he discussed Fort Sumter. Grant I think he would disagree with 13 days being a base, think that is a common misconception. He likened it to being an, awareness, inspiration, like there is a place for a more abstracted, lower complexity take on a historical event.

[@simonpritchard6609]

Thank you so much for your advice. I just wish we had the access to these games here in the U.K. as easily and cheaply as you do in the USA. Tax and postage is crazy

[@arik56]

Need an update to this! Great info.

[@xman777b]

Pierce Morgan and Bobby Knight : ) The odd couple of all odd couples. Very fine video, gentlemen. I've viewed it multiple times. Side note: have either of you ever played , *Europe Engulfed* ? It's a grand strategy WWII game.

[@ThePlayersAid]

No, but have heard a lot about it, have you played it and would recommend? Piers Morgan is a cockwomble.

[@xman777b]

@@ThePlayersAid : ). Yes, I should've added a smile face to my original comment (ie Piers Morgan :). Anyway, regarding Europe Engulfed. I picked it up a couple weeks ago, after researching it heavily. Attractive art/maps are important to me, and this wargame game has one of the most visually appealing maps IMO. When it does get to the table, I'll definitely post my thoughts. Thanks for replying to my comment. Take care. Vin

[@Mutucas]

Thanks for the video. Your channel and blog helped me a lot to get to know wargames!

[@vanlast2]

I miss here '1989 Dawn of freedom'. It is probably the closest to TS.

[@icebergzero]

You mentioned troubles with counting hexes for Zones of Influence or attack length in Empire of the Sun. I keep a computer with the vassal module open next to me when I am playing to help with that.

[@tommessig2060]

so many great games, if the COIN party re-release would just start already. waiting to place a nice big order to get caught up with all the old ones that i missed.

[@davey-boyk7706]

Thank you for this, guys.

[@fgoulartadvogados]

Great video, one of the best wargame channel, along with Marcowargamer and Rob Oren

[@whovian223]

This almost seems like an advertisement for GMT games. LOL But some great-sounding (and some great, as I've actually played a couple) games in there! Really making me think about getting more of them.

[@andrewmcdonald1166]

Great video I like the detail and the comparison with other games really works well. For me I would love to play Here I Stand or Virgin Queen but not sure I would ever purchase them just because they likely would just sit and collect dust.

[@ThePlayersAid]

Those are the kind of games you only need one person to own in your group and you play it like once a year, it's very fun though.

[@andrewmcdonald1166]

Look forward to getting chance one day, almost bought HIS recently but talked myself out of it because I knew it would be a while before I ever broke the shrink. Still great inclusion on your list for sure. Another on my bucket list I hope to knock off is Empire of he Sun.

[@ThePlayersAid]

Empire of the Sun is a great Bucket List game, check out the VASSAL module if you're so inclined, it's very helpful tool in learning the game and seeing how ZOI's interact.

[@herodotos484]

Probably much inspired by Twilight Struggle, but with its own twists, is "Wir Sind Das Volk!", more or less a pure economical war game. From one perspective it's simpler, but from another it has some complexities, because it evolves around implications that can lead to chain reactions. Adding the "2+2" expansion it becomes far more complex and political. It adds an element of alliances between a superpower and a member of its block, a sometime hostile relationship.

[@javierferreyra106]

great video

[@SimCityEA1989]

1:21 "From our Experience" *Snorts* I understand why he's laughing lol

[@FabregasJL]

You both look like really good buddies! I enjoy hearing both your comments and your synergy. Are you neighbours?

[@ThePlayersAid]

We're brothers-in-law!

[@FabregasJL]

@@ThePlayersAid if only I had a brother in law like 1 of you!

[@gregouellet3403]

Excellent video! Answers a very important question. I went on to buy Labyrinth and Empire of the Sun. You guys are expensive!

[@ThePlayersAid]

You kuqst missed their massive annual sale!

[@gregouellet3403]

@@ThePlayersAid I know. Buy I'm in Canada, and shipping plus import charges aren't super friendly. I bought them from a game store not to far from my place. Always happy to support local owners.

[@MrSquirreller]

I recommend Fort Sumter, 13 Days, Watergate, and Campaign Trail.

[@romain2725]

So you've watched and played all the games in the "So you've played Twilight Struggle, What Next?" video and you're wondering, and now what next? A few random ideas, in ascending order of complexity: No Peace Without Spain, Hannibal, Wir Sind das Volk, Amateurs to Arms, Paths of Glory, Illusions of Glory, Napoleon Against Europe, For the People, Pursuit of Glory, Triumph of Chaos (second edition coming)... Unrelated but I'm wondering if the whole CDG thing is dead now? So few new CDGs coming out these days compared to the amount of stuff that's been released in the 2000's. Seems like COIN and COIN-related games are all the rage now.

[@davidsolyom5604]

There could be a video about board games that correspond to specific cards (cold war events) in TS.

[@charlesrowan1978]

1989 could be the next step.

[@ThePlayersAid]

I have the reprint of 1989 on my P500 list. Hope it goes to print next year as I’d love to play it.

[@ardwulfslair]

I TOO LOVE THE GAMES OF MIKE HERMAN

[@ThePlayersAid]

Hilarious. The long lost twin brother of Mark. I have no idea where that came from. I did correct myself though right?

[@johnsy4306]

I've never played Here I Stand two player. I have played it several times six player. :) I would love to play it with you guys at a convention someday. I remember once playing it on Consimworld and we started at 9 or 10 am and finished about 6 pm. I had dinner and dived into Virgin Queen (Here I Stand sequel) right after. My head hurt after that. Not recommended. :) Also, there are ways to flatten the learning curve for HIS. Look up Learning Here I Stand in 20 Minutes on Google. That's an article a new player can read and start playing HIS competently. My daughter played with us grognards using that article and *almost* won as the Ottomans.

[@ThePlayersAid]

I must look up this article. The two player was fine for learning some rules, but was not all that satisfying in the sense that we barely were able to peck at what the game has to offer. It just made me want to play with six people.

[@johnsy4306]

@@ThePlayersAid Come out to the Philippines, you and Alexander. The three of us plus my usual group of three others make six! :) We'll throw in a trip to Corregidor and play other games besides. And here's the link to Here I Stand in 20 Minutes boardgamegeek.com/filepage/60889/here-i-stand-20-minutes

[@mbl26]

Il play Here I Stand with you.

[@mattberry3551]

Disppointing no mention of Star Wars Rebellion. Yes its not historical (most boards games aren't actually) but there is a very good reason it replaced TS as the top 2 player board game on BGG.

[@arekkrolak6320]

GMT should make a COIN game in the Star Wars universe :)

[@Liopot68]

Licensing costs would be through the roof

[@jorgebetancourt3000]

I suggest you add the names of the games, in the info of this video otherwise its not so practical. But then again, thank you very much for this video

[@horrido666]

Watergate looks really good, too. If you are looking for wargames, Fading Glory, Infidel, Ogre, PQ17, Band of Brothers , Hammer of the Scots, any of the Simonith games like Holland 44. Card driven games are more complex by their very nature, because there are two games going on (a card game, and the board game). To play well, a player has to memorize the deck to some extent (at least the good & bad combinations). I like COIN games, but they don't feel like wargames to me.

[@mister10x54]

I guess this will be a hard task to learn, maybe i play some couple of online sessions^^ exellently and brialliantly explaind from guys, who know what they are talkning about

[@nickvandam1214]

I prefer 1960 to twilight struggle because it is less complex and the flavor text regarding history is much stronger.

[@Apeshower]

For 2 players where do you stand with Colonial Twilight?

[@ThePlayersAid]

It's a two player only game, so a great jumping off point for the COIN series.

[@AndyP998]

Empire of the sun is one of very few games that i simply giveup trying to learn. I appreciate alot what he did there, but way too complex for my taste. I enjoy Victory in the pacific alot, but need something little beefier and EotS was simply way too much.

[@ThePlayersAid]

Have you looked at Pacific Victory from Columbia Games?

[@AndyP998]

@@ThePlayersAid Not, but keeping my eye on forthcoming Fire in the sky

[@ThePlayersAid]

@@AndyP998 us too, I almost forked put for the old version (great box art) but a new phalanx version should be excellent.

[@bgm-1961]

I totally agree with adding Washington's War to the list! But I disagree in your assessment of it's complexity compared to Twilight Struggle. True, the actual "decision space" while playing Washington's War is simpler than Twilight Struggle. But where WW's complexity comes through is in it's asymmetrical rules, which TS doesn't have. In WW, the Patriots and British each play by a completey different set of rules. (And in my opinion , is one of the first games to use asymmetric rules effectively). Anyway, it's in both learning, and understanding the nuances of how the different rules sets affect each other is what makes Washington's War almost as a complex game as Twilight Struggle.

[@leehutchinson7005]

What's Fire and Lake like solo?

[@ThePlayersAid]

If you just play each side the best of their abilities it's no different than any other COIN game played that way. If you want to run all three bots then your own stuff it's pretty intense. To me the bots are to substitute a fourth player if you only have 3. running more than one bot in a game is time consuming and it's a lot of non-interative down time for everyone. Apparently the new bot they're releasing will fix that though, so who knows.

[@johnsy4306]

Empire of the Sun is a favorite of mine. I've played it several times on Vassal. This is not a bad game to play by email on Vassal because as you've said, there's a lot to think about. I'd be happy to teach via Vassal. :) I agree EotS is incredible. Very flavorful and deep.

[@DavidChachere]

Here I Stand doesn't have to take 12 hours. I got my ass kicked by the Protestants in less than four. Still, this one ain't no cream puff. Best if you have someone at the table who's played it before.

[@born2bwildne744]

Am I missing a vid on Twilight Struggle itself?

[@ThePlayersAid]

No, we haven't ever made a video on it. We played it many times years ago before we ever made video reviews and just haven't gone back round to it. One day we will.

[@ipejuntunen9822]

Excellent tutorial for new games! It looks like I have at least half of those games waiting in the p500 queue. :) The way you described Empire of the Sun made me think about Fields of Fire, I mean those command chains for example - or are there any similarities? By the way Alexander before you plan to record more Fields of Fire, you ought to examine this unofficial errata for Fields of Fire (so much more extensive than the official), if you have not already that is. boardgamegeek.com/thread/2017220/unofficial-2nd-edition-errata-and-clarifications This game is still so unfinished in its minutiae...

[@ThePlayersAid]

Thanks for your support. I will read through that. I'm thinking I might re-record and do that at some point, we just moved house so I'm in the middle of getting a play space organized. The command system in EotS isn't quite as restrictive as Fields of Fire, but basically anyone in a command radius of a given HQ can be activated, but only a certain number based on the card plus the HQ modifier. But then, the card might give a bonus to activating McArthur based on the event for example.

[@tommessig2060]

i love Mark Herman's designs, but Fort Sumter was just too easy it seems. Although I guess i've only played it solo so maybe that factors in, but it seemed like it wasn't meaty enough to enjoy.

[@ThePlayersAid]

With an opponent it is definitely better. Lots of strategy about how you do your turns.

[@KabukiKid]

Have you ever played Origins of World War II? It's an old Avalon Hill game and is a political control game. I always felt it was sort of like the grandpa of Twilight Struggle. It would be a good candidate for an update and a remake.

[@ThePlayersAid]

Haven't played that one, but then there's a lot of the old AH titles we haven't gotten to.

[@pokefrosch617]

With all due respect... if your wife plays 13 Days and Fort Sumter with you (let alone win) she doesnt qualify as a non gamer anymore... you are a lucky man!

[@thgenral]

Guys, how well does the bot work in Churchill, especially if played solo?

[@ThePlayersAid]

It works just fine, but there are so many more better dedicated solo games that I would choose over Churchill. Churchill is a great game when you have three players, but if I had less than three I'd honestly play something else.

[@thgenral]

Thanks so much. I am an old gamer but haven’t gamed in a few years. I now see there are a good number of solitaire games out there, many more than when I was in my 40’s. Finding opponents is as hard as ever and I like solitaire as an alternative. I now see a goodly number of 2 or more player games but they have a bot option such s EOS. In you’re experience are they often worth the effort and cost? For example, Labyrinth?

[@ThePlayersAid]

@@thgenral Labyrinth is one of my favourite two player games of all time. Thematically visceral, and the game is a very tense cat and mouse style, which is never boring to play. EotS bot is pretty complex, and the COIN bots are weighted, so they're really challenging to play against, but great fun. The problem there is that you have to run 3 bots, which isn't all the fun. Most times I like to use a bot to substitute a player when I have three players abut need four. etc. Do you use Vassal? There are large communities where people are playing all the time and would be happy to teach many of these newer titles.

[@thgenral]

Never used Vassal but I will check in to it. Thanks for the info. I like the reviews you and your buddies do. Playing ‘Hunters” right now and have Doolittle, Sherman Leader, and Night Fighter ordered because of your You Tube work and another review I read plus looking at rules on line. So, what you do has real world impact. It may not be huge but I’m spending money based on what you think so you do matter! Thanks again :). (I will not blame you if I don’t like a game, just for the record.)

[@The1TruePhlegm]

Mark, not a plug for LAWN WARS

[@The1TruePhlegm]

I’m crushed

[@Conflict_Boardgaming]

Alexander, that shirt looks like a center mass target. tee hee

[@johnsy4306]

I regret not getting 1960

[@ThePlayersAid]

I'm sure they'll reprint, it's been around so long it's pretty popular amongst non-wargamers, and the GMT edition is top quality.

[@eviola11]

Surprised no Fields of Despair or Colonial Twilight mentions