PREHISTORIC RITUAL BURNING: Was it a religious practice?

[@nellcorkin5732]

The problem with rushing to "ritual" as an explanation is that it tends to shut down further discussion. Thank you guys. Very interesting.

[@PlagueHush]

Burning the surface is also a way of hardening and protecting wood. Simply lighting a fire in the pit you're about to place a timber, with the intent of burning the end of the timber, seems like a very practical way to harden the ends of the timber you're about to bury in the ground to protect it against waterlogging, rotting, deterioration, and general insect intrusion.

[@helenamcginty4920]

If I were doing this I would light a fire and put the ends of poles in several at a time not mess about with fires in the holes which would likely be put out by the pole esp if the wood is green, long before any useful burning happened. Has anyone tried this out?

[@micheleheddane3804]

Long ago in the traveler community when someone died their shelter was burnt down. I also remember hearing that when homes went out of use they were considered dead and was cremated

[@williamjohnson1618]

Hello I'm william Johnson from Arizona phonex

[@ruthboon18]

Thanks for sharing this on KZbin. Joining you on patreon isn't something I can do and I like these kind of half-hour on one topic videos. And I agree about must farm; if you were going to burn your house down on purpose, you'd more than likely take your belonging out first. At the very least you'd finish your lunch.

[@dldove22]

I think 80 years is a logical span of time between accidental large fires. The city of Troy, NY, had two large fires in the 19th century before wooden buildings were outlawed. Archaeogists ought to look at how close together buildings were and what was downwind. It's been a very interesting discussion.

[@johnnyjet3.1412]

On another documentary the archeologists were Crying “Why did they Burn It??” - if you’re a Burner the Answer Is “So we can do it Again!” Last did me 23rd Burn!

[@caroletomlinson5480]

Burning Man takes place in a northwestern desert of Nevada, the Black Rock desert is closer to California and Oregon than Arizona. Very creative destruction, and not associated with any religion-so perhaps we should begin to separate “ritual” from “religion” or from any sincere meaning of sacred. Celebration of the Burning Man type probably can occur only when there is an abundance of plenty. A sacred ritual is probably more in desperation and wishful, hopeful thinking when in need. : think sacrifices of Aztec when food is running low due to climatically driven drought (that’s the birth of religion ,if you ask me). I agree with accidental burning AND deliberate burning in response to excess deaths whatever the reason.

[@kariannecrysler640]

Congratulations 🎊🎉 50th Monday moot!!!!! Well done gentleman 💚🎊🎉🥰💋💋

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

Thank you Kari! M.

[@julescaru8591]

Just love the banter🤪 , interesting topic, jury is definitely still out on the burnt finds All the best Jules

[@johnnyjet3.1412]

Around 200 years ago and earlier, when you moved your family, the last thing you did was burn down the house, to reclaim the nails (which were hand made by a blacksmith) for the next house.

[@richardkelly9156]

Explains all the roundhouses on Anglesey

[@lesleygrain2120]

A couple of things, but firstly I’m completely with you re ritual 1. Dorstone long mounds/houses. ?Ritual or as you imply had they become unsafe, out of date. As the remains of these buildings were later used for burials does this mean it was a ritual site or somewhere that it was easier to dig a hole. Or were they burnt down because of a change of leadership, a new regime starting again but showing some respect to the previous “rulers”. Endless possibilities. 2. Did you see the reports on the “odd shaped”, round villa near Scarborough. I appreciate this is technically outside you remit. Why go straight for ritual! In this household we call one archaeologist from east of England “ritual man”. We coined this term maybe 15 years ago.

[@Michael_Bott]

Yes - meant to bring Dorstone into the discussion! Despite Julian Thomas' assertions, the 'houses of the living becoming houses of the dead' notion is strongly disputed by some in the archaeological community. Would love to have a closer look at that. Hmmmm - I think I know who you mean by 'ritual man'! 😂

[@michaelleblanc7283]

Thank goodness. It is very easy to distinguish between Michael and Rupert by the colour of their hair : )

[@michaelleblanc7283]

. . . meaning to say that otherwise you are both equally pleasant, entertaining and most informative

[@richardprice7755]

one drinks wine the other drinks beer

[@locutusmdv]

I watch your videos and I enjoy them immensely. I have a technical suggestion: please take care of the low end of sound, probably using a high pass filter to it. The sound has too much of the low frequencies and its bumming in my TV speakers, which usually handle very well other videos in KZbin. Thank you and keep making these videos!

[@joanberkwitz2662]

Let’s see… wood posts, wattle and daub walls, possibly a thatch roof.. wool clothing and blankets, fire in a fire pit… sparks and ash, an accident.. how often did that happen? Clearly, it would happen often enough. Or, an invasion from a neighboring tribe; a forest fire; lightning…

[@seanwelch71]

You two are so smart.

[@jenniferharrison4319]

Happy 50th Guys. Super topic as always 👍🙂

[@pixiepianoplayer114]

Let's set this podcast alight! Happy 50th moot!

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

THank you PIxie! M.

[@ruthcherry3177]

Thank you, again, for shining the light of common sense and just talking through scenarios. Living in Spain, as I do, I know how devastating wildfires can be. I wonder, has anyone taken soil core samples to see if it's possible that a lightning strike, or overturned oil lamp, set the surrounding vegetation on fire and it swept its way through everything in its path? I'm particularly thinking of Must Farm here but habitations and settlements in general. The argument for preserving timber posts seems perfectly plausible. I think one problem is that a lot of academic people - in general - have never lived outside of academia; they just lack 'life experience' in general.

[@elizabethmcglothlin5406]

What about a case of infectious disease? A settlement might be abandoned and burned because it was 'unlucky'.

[@deormanrobey892]

🎂Thanks for the show.

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

You are welcome, as always Deorman. M.

[@richdj9780]

Really interesting discussion

[@helenamcginty4920]

Re charcoal in post puts. I seem to remember that charcoal is very brittle. Doesn't seem a very good idea to me as it would be difficult to control if it was buried.

[@RalphEllis]

A post burning in a hole, with therefore a restricted oxygen supply, is the ideal location for naturally producing charcoal. R

[@britishlongbarrows]

My thought too - it also depends what the local geology the post holes were dug into?

[@britishlongbarrows]

The wood would have been rotten or eaten alive making it easier to burn :)

[@badgerpa9]

Thank you for your video Gentlemen. Be safe.

[@richardkelly9156]

☺️

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

You are very welcome. We'll do our best. M.

[@TheSpeedyone2]

Wonderful channel, gentlemen!!!

[@rialobran]

I live in an area where thatched cottages are very thin on the ground, but over the 3 decades of my fire service career I'd say we averaged 1 fire a year at a thatched property. More often than not a spark from the chimney would ignite the roof. I'm sitting here wondering how, in a world of naked flames and thatch every house that's ever been discovered hasn't had a fire. I wasn't sure what exactly you were saying about the charcoal in the post holes, but this could be caused by a bullseye. A spark that slowly burns through the wood, it requires very little O2 and can go for days, this can cause charcoaling.

[@fishonthetree]

Personally I favor the burning after sudden death etc as it incorporates the pattern recognition of infectious diseases and disinfecting with fire - which is a very practical thing - and the ritualistic cleaning both. We see a lot of examples from history where something practical had a ritual/superstitious/religious explaination and the divorcing of the two is a specifically modern western phenomenon. Plus the wide range of circumstances suggest a wide range of reasons for burning (open fires among them)

[@Pixelkip]

Cheers guys !

[@napalmholocaust9093]

A spark in the wind is a fierce creature.

[@arnman2093]

Common burns might be evidence of conflict. Attack your rival group and if and when they run, burn out their settlement to convince them to move on.

[@leono-woods6280]

Arminghall henge... my old stomping ground. 💚

[@helenamcginty4920]

Too many interpreters seem to be academics rather than people with any practical experience. What do the people at places like Butsers Farm say. I favour just burning half rotted posts to prevent them from infecting other buildings. I know they often burn slowly at first as they are damp.

[@romullen3971]

Thanks!

[@sallyreno6296]

Black Rock Desert, Pershing Country, Nevada. Btw, the 10th rule of Burning Man is to Leave No Trace.

[@twattwit4812]

had tour at Arminghall henge a month ago, after 1935 trenches re-opened 'there is a suggestion they were burned down ritually but new test results could show proof or what' read more at EDP24

[@Tipi_Dan]

In the prehistoric and ancient worlds (as in modern preliterate societies), just as "art" was inseparable from utility (and embedded within it), so too was "ritual" part and parcel of every daily activity, however mundane. Therefore, there is no reason that accidents, practical solutions, or or political imperatives should preclude the inclusion or application of ritual". Therefore, there is no conflict between these alternative speculations. This is not a question of "this or that", but rather of "this AND that". As far as the burning of entire villages goes, we might justifiably blame such wholesale incineration on those pesky Indo-Europeans and their blasted "incursions".

[@fiberotter]

So rival tribes would not dare to burn down a village? I wish I could joint Patreon, but the funds nowadays don'' t allow that. I adore archaeology, especially ancient.

[@seanwelch71]

Didn't burning provide charcoal and fire for the community?

[@ThePrehistoryGuys]

Our understanding is that ordinary burning does not produce charcoal. The production of charcoal as a fuel has to take place under deliberate controlled circumstances. M.

[@seanwelch71]

@@ThePrehistoryGuys thank you, men!

[@StargazerFS128]

Archaeologists sometimes do my head in with their theories. How about if this house was burned to the ground by an errant piece of cinder which ignited the thatched roof? something that simple and perfectly plausible! yet they can’t consider this? they justify their titles, training, money spent and years invested in their educations by quickly arriving at whimsical theories for something that could have been at accident. If my house burned to a cinder tonight, ten thousand years from now some archaeologist will dig it up and theorize it was a ritual burning.

[@petrairene]

Ritual burning is a live and well in religions today. For example in the vedic religions and in tantric buddhism.🙃

[@RalphEllis]

Burned settlements…. Its called ‘war’. R

[@edelgyn2699]

I've known villages burn their houses due to infestations.

[@lindalines603]

Like "The Motel Of The Mysteries"

[@bonitareardon5987]

Tibetan Buddhists still do fire offerings as part of their liturgy. However, human beings are not part of the offerings.

[@harrygary1052]

Intentionally or not, that alone still says nothing about WHY it was burned. How do they know it wasn’t just those jerks from the next tribe over?

[@lindagates9150]

😂Mother Nature the worst arsonist think of all the forest and grass fires 😂 she has caused 😮as well as the Great fire in Chicago and in what is now the South end of Saint John New Brunswick a few years later. It’s interesting that the new buildings in the south end were made of stone and brick and have flat roofs across the harbour on the west side new structures were still made of wood but had flat roofs too some have a slight V shape after the fire people didn’t build steeply pitched Roofs like the one I have on my house built in 1854 B T W it’s still under construction..😅going for building permits shortly 😊 I thought that English archaeology students were taught that ritual was the only acceptable explanation . Good to find out that isn’t so🍀🌟🍀👍👍👍🍀🌟🍀🖖🖖🖖🖖🍀🌟🍀🙋🏼‍♀️

[@richardkelly9156]

☺️

[@longbow4856]

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[@longbow4856]

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[@richardkelly9156]

😳🙄

[@Pixelkip]

Haha wut m8

[@helenamcginty4920]

I used to have a Lancashire University small book on the vernacular architecture of the Fylde the large flat peat and boulder clay area roughly between the the foothills of the Pennines to the East, the sea to the west and the rivers Lune and Ribble to north and south. There is evidence from 19th century photographs and occasional remains esp. Later walls within later brick walls that clay and wattle with thatch roofs was the standard building form before the spread of brick. The theory for the lack of widespread remains was that the daub walls just melted back into the landscape due to the damp climate. I think the area was too wet for pre historic peoples although there is evidence of mesolithic hunting from what appear to be camps on the slopes of the hills to the East (,from where you can see the sea) to the 12000 yr old skeleton of a young elk who had been wounded some 3 weeks previously but then hunted with spears and axe till he took refuge in a dew pond where he died. (My family home was som 100 m south of the site on a slight rise). www.theharris.org.uk/collections/

[@jenniferharrison4319]

Hi, I’m just up the road on S Creek. Actually there was lots of prehistoric activity across the Fylde . Stone axes and other tools dug out of the peat Over Wyre. Flint knapping sites at Stalmine. A possible pile settlement at Nateby. Ploughed out Bronze Age barrows around Weeton. The list goes on. The Fylde wasn’t as wet in Neolithic times. As the climate cooled and became wetter the oak forests died and the great peat bogs developed. Tons of bog oak has been dug out by farmers over time.

[@jenniferharrison4319]

PS. Have you watched the Windy Harbour Research seminars on Oxford University KZbin kzbin.info/www/bejne/q2nJpI1uqL52ZsU kzbin.info/www/bejne/hH6Tl6uKqr2AbJI