Laravel Creator talks PHP, Lambos, and VC

[@d0cx]

As a Java dev, Laravel was a joy to work in. I hopped right in and did some demos for the board at work converting our legacy PHP app to a Laravel blade based app.

[@mosesnandi]

How do you compare Laravel with Spring Boot. I had more fun working with Spring Boot and IntelJ IDEA

[@maxpaynestory]

I have worked in Spring Boot, Laravel and Nest.js. I think Laravel and any new Nodejs based framework take inspiration from Spring Boot.

[@darwinrc]

@@maxpaynestoryFrom Ruby on Rails actually

[@ibnu7942]

symfony is closer to spring boot rather than Laravel

[@johanrg70]

As a Spring Boot/Laravel dev I find Laravel to be a very inferior product in comparison.

[@xen2297]

I should re-iterate. TJ is a great interviewer/host. Not just a fanboy. Loved it. Great content. Covered things like how good Eloquent is, the config of laravel via drivers. Laravel is a lesson in how to use the GoF Design Patterns properly.

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

Please don't compliment tj on this channel

[@jessequartey]

@@ThePrimeTimeagen bro is jealous 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@RaymondT-ln6li]

@@ThePrimeTimeagen is prime jealous

[@kaibe5241]

The name… Prime is jealous… agen.

[@PedroS-nv1sl]

"I'm too dumb for React". My self esteem just rose significantly.

[@RapLyricalVideos]

Start 00:00:01 End 01:45:28

[@tonyhart2744]

thanks anon

[@NabeelSadiq-i8v]

highly appreciated 👏

[@andycyz]

Where Lambo?

[@eamonburns9597]

You're a life saver!

[@tannerr-dev]

thank you

[@phips-dev]

Would be interesting to also have a talk with Fabien Potencier - the creator of Symfony about PHP.

[@IvyCreamMathieu]

i was so looking for this comment ! Symfony is used a lot by laravel and everybody seems to forget that !

[@envueltoenplastico]

Yes! Haven't been a PHP dev in a good few years, but Symfony 1.2 gave me a great start to my career way back in 2009, and Fabien was such an amazing community voice back then, writing great articles, helping the ecosystem finally embrace 5.3 with Symfony2 and all the great stuff that came with that (Composer etc.). It was a good time, the PHP ecosystem got a real shot in the arm around then. Merci bien Fabien !

[@JohnCrosside]

as a symfony dev full time i second this! would make a great convo

[@cosorxndrw]

@@envueltoenplastico For me it was Laravel that gave me the initial start (besides other in-house framework), but now I work with Symfony, which I also find great to develop in, with a lot of features that are actually used by Laravel.

[@envueltoenplastico]

@@cosorxndrw Nice! Yeah, years and years of amazing work in both frameworks. I still miss a number of features of Symfony in some of the tools I use these days, the form sub-framework is one that always comes to mind.

[@Thomasfrank]

Taylor's point around 00:18:43 is so good I want to put it on my wall

[@i-am-at-work]

I just appreciate how TJ is able to joke about programming related things so casually. You know, like so many references, so many tweets and then TJ just casually brings that up with a one liner

[@couchtourist256]

Picked up laravel this week for a personal project after hearing a lot about it. I’m use flutter/dart at my job and laravel has been a blast to use. Really love what they did.

[@travisricker]

Laravel+Inertia+Vue gives you basically everything. GOAT Stack

[@vincesanity2856]

Laravel Breeze with React Typescript and Shadcn for me

[@XDarkGreyX]

​@@vincesanity2856 ew

[@rass4609]

im doing Laravel with normal blades that have HTMX and AlpineJS lol

[@UwU-f2a]

its not, its bad. coz it slow and has poor performance. coz the first request will send the whole frontend that make the initial loading slow, then the inertia js add overhead in component updates, and clicking between pages. next js and sveltekit is much better lmao. and serving svetekit using bun is better again.

[@travisricker]

@@UwU-f2a Nextjs is faster for sure but with Inertia SSR and code splitting you can shrink the gap between the two. Plus, Inertia 2.0 has even more performance improvements.

[@ivanjelenic5627]

Finally! The Lambo man himself, Taylor Otwell! Love Laravel, code in it daily.

[@maciejtrybilo]

For me one of the biggest advantages of server side rendering is that I _don't_ have to write complex code in JS or JS cosplaying as a type safe language.

[@masterchief1520]

As bad as JS is, typescript makes it vastly better. I'd give it credits

[@yojou3695]

​@@masterchief1520 eh, it's okay

[@UwU-f2a]

the fact that u said writing js is complex, u should think again about ur programming skill. i wonder what u have wrote in server bcs u said writing js is complex, maybe just boring json api

[@TehKarmalizer]

@@UwU-f2a he said the code was complex, not that JS was complex. Are you suggesting that it’s impossible to do complex things in JavaScript?

[@UwU-f2a]

@@TehKarmalizer lmao bro, displaying data in frontend in js framework is never complex. did u interpreted his saying as he wanna create complex animation? lmao, if yes why he said wanna avoid js? beecause u cant create complex animation in frontend without js lmao. obviously he just mean displaying data in frontend, and it isnt complex lmao lmao. u should question ur skill in programming then

[@ryandury]

Man, I've been working in the JS ecosystem for the last several years, but my previous job was built with Laravel. I'm now missing it. Great convo.

[@lukewood2662]

Nice interview, really good time. And this TJ dude is actually amazing.

[@miscbits]

I start using Laravel in version 5 and I still love it a lot. The stability he talks about in Laravel at around the 27:00 mark, I really appreciate. Laravel's stability and design is partly what makes me so critical of the daily new framework in the js ecosystem and the changing architecture of react every six months. I went a few years without needing to build things with a framework after laravel 7, and then came back to use it in 11 and it still worked exactly as I expected and remembered with a ton of QoL updates.

Thanks for giving us this interview and hearing Taylor say that there are people who have thanked him for making Laravel and sharing it to the world to improve their work; it's something I've wanted to do in person and tell him “thank you very much”. Very good interview, entertaining and very honest answers.

[@maxpaynestory]

A quick question for Taylor. PHP is also evolving really fast, how do you decide to use a new feature of PHP in Laravel?

[@reinoob]

I learned Laravel this year and all my bigotry towards it became love. Laravel 's ecosystem is awesome. Inertia is such a great technology

[@beeronme7131]

Inertia is awesome! Can't wait for 2.0!

[@CristianKirk]

I've been using PHP+HTMX... super cool!

[@rjk0128]

Exciting to hear! Would you elaborate on your experience?

[@kensyjolicoeur]

@@rjk0128 sound more like gpt response

[@MaxUgly]

25:10 Yamamoto Tsunetomo - 'Matters of great concern should be treated lightly.” Master Ittei commented, “Matters of small concern should be treated seriously"

[@namelessbeast4868]

Man, Taylor seems like a really down to Earth guy. What a great interview!

[@kaibe5241]

I did a laracon talk years back, about validation. I gave some examples and that day Taylor releases form request validation. He came up to me for the speakers dinner and then picked my brain on my approach. Very humble and always willing to learn.

[@shampoable]

It would be nice to have these topshelf podcast eps published on actual podcast indexes. These long form, audio-only convos seems perfectly suited to listen on the go

[@nkululekomthimkulu1248]

I enjoyed the interview! Much thanks.

[@bora514]

Next.js and in general whole JS ecosystem is modern and fun to work with, but let's be realistic, if you want something that simply works out of the box, it's Laravel, you don't need to search for third party modules, add separate authentication, social auth, payments, orm, database support and so on. Speed of development is on a next level. And now when they release Laravel cloud (I just hope it won't be too much pricey, maybe there will be a generous free tier ^^) it will be peace of cake to deploy Laravel apps.

[@kaibe5241]

Until your app gets so big you end up rewriting most of it. Frameworks like Laravel are incredible for bootstrapping, but you do end up moving away from its established patterns after a while.

[@bora514]

@@kaibe5241 maybe, but let's be realistic, most apps don't grow that much, we ain't making next Amazon. If and when it comes to that, that will be separate problem.

[@Giuseppecarusoplus]

I was just wondering, Michael, do you know, right, that the (wonderful) "back of the furniture (actually a fence)" analogy was a story of a learning from his father that Steve Jobs told to his biographer? In any case, it was lovely to watch you so moved by that story. It's something that I always tell to my son over an over again. Inspirational.

[@galihanggorojati3455]

Laravel + Inertia = 🔥

[@lolololololedziolek]

I agree. It's like a software engineer hell 😣

[@galihanggorojati3455]

@@lolololololedziolek are u mental health disorders?

[@ccj2]

I’ve been non ironically a hater of PHP for years now but finding out about Inertia is actually making me want to stomach learning the language now.

[@Reichstaubenminister]

Theo complained about how hard it is to get started with PHP? Can't say I'm surprised. My 11/12 year old self didn't have any issues with PHP 5 on Windows 7, so why is it hard for him to type _brew install php_ into his terminal?

[@boccobadz]

Like DHH said, it's fun to be competent. React, Next and Vercel are built for copy pasting bootcamp bros, not for thinking engineers.

[@justpatrick_]

​​​@@boccobadz, 2024 - leader of the thinking engineers

[@mxlje]

Because Theo doesn’t actually know what he’s talking about.

[@SXsoft99]

Do you look at Theo and think he is able to think and breathe at the same time?

[@evergreen-]

Tell me you never worked with PHP without telling you never worked with PHP

[@FabianBarajas]

The intro was just golden

[@DominikZogg]

I do not like Lavarel, but i gained alot of respect for Taylor with this interview.

[@johncarlson3968]

This is a good format, love it and Ryan Dahl Interview

[@cb73]

I’m betting Lex interviews Taylor soon

[@mythbuster6126]

Lex has 0 programming knowledge

[@AlbertCloete]

Not true.

[@liamkearn]

@@mythbuster6126this isn’t programming at all. It’s framework / library politics

[@aufdem2]

​@@mythbuster6126lex is a programmer

[@MichaelSt]

@@mythbuster6126 why are you straight up lying?

[@Xoneris]

DHH is Taylor's rolemodel. Taylor is my rolemodel.

[@olbluelips]

Cool! I’ve never really done much web dev but im definitely interested in using Laravel so this came at the prefect time

[@Rcls01]

Listening to this I start to get a feeling that I really want to build something, but every time I've tried I've been hit with the reality of "Oh shit, I will have to maintain this" and that just kills it for me.

[@Northykun]

So now teej is prime moderator right?

[@XDarkGreyX]

If he isnt on timeout

[@projectguild6694]

The JS info on rails in this pod is outdated. Since rails 6, you could bundle react, stimulus or any other JS into your app; you can also choose the bundler or no build. You’re not boxed into writing ERB files in the front end where everything is sent from the server. You can create a stimulus controller and vanilla JS if you’d like. You can also broadcast turbo streams, etc. All I’m saying is, these are some strong opinions about what rails is from people that don’t know rails.

[@avwie132]

That is a lot on this channel.

[@kp8752]

I used stimulus on an enterprise laravel app in 2020. It was simple and delightful

[@projectguild6694]

@@kp8752 that’s awesome. Stimulus is a pleasure to work with.

[@projectguild6694]

@@avwie132 it’s just enough.

[@sawood2010]

Fellow Arkansan. I love Laravel. I would like to see a laravel like framework for Kotlin that leans into mobile dev.

[@jessequartey]

I want inertia in Go. That would be a banger stack

[@briancalma5674]

they have gonertia

[@jessequartey]

@briancalma5674 ask and you shall be given. Thanks

[@yuri0001]

@@briancalma5674 What an unfortunate name. Sounds like gonorrhea.

[@flint0131]

Go + Inertia + React = GoNeRea

[@PepeNuclear]

@@flint0131LOL

[@hellelo.5840]

We love Taylor, He is an insper for all of us.

[@gabo_cs]

A little suggestion: it'd be nice to start off by asking the guest what's the backstory of the name they picked.. why "Laravel", why "Rails", etc.. That we can look up, but hearing it from the creators in an interview is just fun

[@rebokfleetfoot]

i liked PHP. back in it's day, it was a good tool for whipping up a quick website with database access and dynamic HTML content

[@TurntableTV]

It changed and improved a lot and Laravel was an important factor in its evolution.

[@JamesSmith-cm7sg]

"Back in it's day" 😂 PHP is still a primary choice, infact the best choice for web start ups

[@rebokfleetfoot]

@@JamesSmith-cm7sg thanks, that's good to hear, it's been a long while since i was active in the industry

[@gracjanchudziak4755]

@@JamesSmith-cm7sg "the best choice for web start ups" for what reason? Ugly grama? No, the best is Go. Even Python with FastAPI or Django Ninja is much better than PHP bloat. The only reason can be that there is amount of PHP devs and they are cheap in exploitation (check salaries on Stack Survey).

[@cherry-55]

​@@JamesSmith-cm7sg me as a 7 yoe PHP dev won't be so sure, since in some cases you actually want a stateful app kept in memory or maybe an app using more async features, or more multithreading or maybe you really need spa-first approach with some ssr. and lots of php devs i interview have no idea about all those concepts, not to mention OOP and design patterns which is a thing in modern PHP world wether you like it or not. So as a startup founder finding good PHP programmers is not that easy. One thing for sure, average PHP dev is still better as backend dev than average Python one :D

[@duruld]

1:19:13 that is the greatest sponsor break I've ever seen

[@konstantinbulatovic7746]

Tbh this is a pretty big deal for PHP ecosystem, this brings Laravel in front with something like Next.js does.

[@jimjs5672]

What are you specifically referring to? Inertia?

[@AHN1444]

I tried laravel on a new site, really tried but the speed vs raw PHP didn't convinced me.

[@maxoumimaro]

May I recommend you add "Top shelf" to the name of the videos ? Would help us recognize this format.

[@Zipp3rZero]

Thank you prime & tj for making these awesome interviews

[@LuminousVoyage-o5g]

I wanna be like Taylor when I grow up.

[@jasenmichael]

I enjoy that every time you mention php, you mention lambos.

[@blocSonic]

I don't know how DHH would be swayed by Inertia since he's really in on the whole #nobuild idea. I wouldn't be surprised if he develops / releases a new front-end solution that does not require a build.

[@hghmnds]

listening while coding our Laravel-Inerti-Vue system

[@josemamontano3617]

Amazing interview!

[@trlpht]

Thank you Taylor, love your work.

[@virinom]

What's green LED inside Taylor's glasses?

[@GjokoPargo]

Maybe I missed it, but it seems nobody thought to ask him for his thoughts on htmx.

[@UwU-f2a]

Because of that, it's not interesting. It's just going back to the old ways. With HTMX, you'll end up like this: all routing will contact the server, and when you want to create more complex interactivity, you inevitably have to write raw JavaScript (with lots of document.getElementById that messes up the code readability), or jQuery or Alpine, which mixes various inline syntax in one file without structured grouping. Client side rendering is worse than SvelteKit, the performance is slow, each click isn't fast or smooth. I tested it on Google PageSpeed, and HTMX makes JavaScript rendering heavy, whereas SvelteKit optimizes the JavaScript code at compile time, making it smooth and lightweight. For video playback code that displays control buttons in HTMX, it takes many lines because you have to use raw JavaScript or jQuery or Alpine, but in SvelteKit, it's only a few lines. In SvelteKit, you can pre render, which further speeds up performance, but in HTMX, you can't. In SvelteKit, you can create complex interactivity easily, structured, and cleanly, like a drag and drop window, in HTMX you can't, the code will be messy and hard to read.

[@mel-182]

Teej should do the intro everytime! haha

[@MrRuslionkz]

Agree. Cool intro

[@miguelreid]

Hell yeah love this guys

[@tannerr-dev]

taylor seems like a cool guy

[@stephenjason7575]

Taylor Otwell 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@TankorSmash]

29:53 that's exactly what all that functional monad stuff is about, where you can break down many different types of things into similar operations, even without really knowing much about the things at first. It's fun that it can be represented just in naming patterns too.

[@enthusiast1]

I enjoyed this talk, though if I cannot code my website entirely in x64 assembly language, I'll feel inferior. 😁 okay, seriously... loved this talk... heard about Laravel, did not know much about it, learned from this interview, in parallel visited Laravel site to peek at intro. Anyway, great content you guys! 💯

[@namelessbeast4868]

I think you guys need to come up with a better framing for your cameras. Having chat behind the cameras make it really difficult to read it. There must be a way of organizing the three cameras and chat

[@olbluelips]

22:10 TJ is SPITTING!! Maintain your vision. If you’re wrong, you’re wrong. You wont get anywhere by catering to all users

[@olbluelips]

Now to be fair, the only “users” I’ve had are people asking me to fix bugs on tiny GH repos, but I still feel that this is great advice DONT 👏 BE 👏 AFRAID 👏 TO 👏 FIRE 👏 USERS

[@hentype]

Ironic since Laravel started to do just the opposite lately, catering to everyone and losing focus.

[@micoberss5579]

Seems like nice guy. I liked this interview

[@Alex-pg1gt]

It's funny how there is no mention of symfony

[@EmanueleSerini78]

There is, when he's talking about 2015-2016 and the java like PHP he's pointing at Symfony

[@scottmcallister6583]

lambo talk 01:36:08

[@mel-182]

What If Taylor decided to create a CMS as alternative to WordPress? OMG Cloud and Forge could reach billions.

[@Moustafa-Sabry]

Guess we’re learning php boys

[@_akira4k]

FFB - First from Brazil

[@ChrisIsOutside]

I'm gonna say eloquent is awesome! on YT

[@ismailesadklc3874]

Do a jonathan blow episode!

[@FlashIn4KS]

Inertia seems like a reason to hop back on to Laravel 🤔🤔

[@emanuel_larini]

Started with Laravel and ended up in Node. Where did I fail?

[@abhishekbhagat9313]

Learning laravel

[@Rafael-pj4zc]

What's been your experience with node, do you like working with it?

[@getupkid84]

Life choices 😂

[@salahdidi8287]

U didn't fail both are good

[@marcusrehn6915]

6 months ago, nobody would view this as a failure. Just wait 6 months and it will swing back.

[@chaitanyayeole4111]

@ThePrimeTime Can you please speak about Python3.13 and its changes? Removal of GIL and Inclusion of JIT mainly. It would be really helpful to understand and learn from your insights.

[@samarnagar9699]

1:22:15 teej in shambals

[@reverse4646]

Does Taylor know about the Trongate Framework? 😅

[@ivanjelenic5627]

Lmao

[@Mister5597]

I remember hearing about it and just visiting their webpage I think like a year or 2 ago, I just visited their page now and... uhm... I guess its unique.

[@ChrisIsOutside]

that's the way to go, do the hard stuff first - its llike, can we do it???? yes/no??? if yes, colour it in

[@blocSonic]

Laravel Cloud certainly sounds promising. I've developed with PHP for over 20 years, but more recently shifted away from it in favor of JS powered static generated sites with Astro/React. Completely ditching the need for a full stack and content admin. One of the drivers of that is performance, but even more so is how easy it is to deploy with push to deploy using something like Netlify. However for projects that really do need a full PHP stack and content admin, it would be great if we could have push to deploy for those. Not having seen a demo of Laravel Cloud, I hope that it will bring that.

[@zorro161]

Thank you for inertia man saved my life bro 😭😭😭

[@virinom]

1:29:40 this goes for WordPress I assume :D

[@ZealotFeathers]

If Taylor Otwell is too scared to talk to people, I think I have reason to be more confident at these types of events 😆

[@surajkumardwivedi7139]

johnny sins in the thumbnail, finally he took the programmer role

[@ahmedhabeeb2499]

the best thing laravel

[@kamertonaudiophileplayer847]

A hybrid approach will win.

[@wotwithbert7591]

Symfony + htmx, anyone?

[@martinvirando5651]

This conversation might hurt Lee Robinsons pocket.

[@something00witty]

Really interesting and motivating discussion, thanks guys!

[@RadityoPrasetiantoWibowo]

there is bash coder here ?

[@xen2297]

I like TJ

[@robmorgan1214]

WE YELL STUFF AT U PRIME... BECAUSE U MAKE IT FUN TO YELL AT YOU, Mr mustache man! Thanks 4 noticing! You're a funny guy... we like feeding you str8 lines and seeing what happens! ... now get back n there we'll weight for you to cook!

[@l8ll8linflnlty98]

very neat!

[@RyanHaydenMattoon]

Craziest part of this interview is that Taylor has never tried pineapple pizza.

[@MaxUgly]

Prime, love your content man. Almost 40 and okay at most things when sitting in front of a computer. Still have my health and moving furniture, loading trucks, stuff like that for work .. I probably have the best chance out of this by learning some construction trade but I always choose the hard path. Done fighting that, been hacking shizzz together in Python, not really sure I like coding, certainly love it, but it takes so much work to 'make it work' I said all that to say your head is blocking chat, you should have mirrored your cam and made yourself his mic. Or just not put the gd chat on screen. All good, I can just listen to this one. Love and nah mast day

[@rohitpatil3264]

Love it❤

[@vitosnatios]

I'm brazilian btw

[@LearnValkey]

Aren't you afraid that taking VC investment will make you lose Laravel's open source sprit? It is hard to make money on open source especially if you need to hit 10-100x expectations of the VC. What are your thoughts?

[@SXsoft99]

"we chose react for the rich amount of libraries" and not to get the react devs to come to laravel on the backend from the different js ecosystems

[@dominuskelvin]

The folks who will use your open source gifts will do so warts and all

[@TheDeluxeman]

Seth Rogan brother?

[@GeradTroje]

Interesting.

[@TheUndulyNoted]

Laravel was my first tech stack. It’s powerful but honestly there is just too much complexity and too much magic in it in my view. It also wants to be part of your frontend when you’d rather just have a separate frontend app.