Fired from NAR Church

[@davidthomas360]

I was so convicted by this episode! I am a pastor who is very familiar with NAR...I agree with some of their teachings and am not in agreement with others. What struck me is how similar this situation is to my church. I am the lead pastor but I am certain some of my leaders feel the same way about me as the brother who shared today felt about his "apostle." I am definitely going to pray and seek to make some changes in how I interact and lead--some substantial changes. Thank you so much for sharing and being used of the Holy Spirit to open my eyes.

[@stephenwooten6413]

Great way to hear and great heart to receive the possibility of mistakes. God bless you brother.

[@michaelrowntree2005]

Appreciate your humility David! If there’s anything we can do to help feel free to reach out. Blessings 🙏

[@shell3775]

And do all NAR leaders agree on every point? I think we need to be careful to not lump all people who believe a few similar things together.

[@PepeLeFunk]

Thank you for your humility! An encouragement to us all.

[@lilmisspeace]

As a former member of a small church that had an unspoken NAR lean and a Pastor who micromanaged members to keep everyone believing his way, I am so encouraged by your comment here! We need more Pastors like you who are willing to examine themselves, the structure of their church, and anything that could potentially hurt the body of believers.

[@whittakerdanielj]

When a leader says you are dishonoring them, and won't tell you how or why, it is a cult.

[@louisaccardi2268]

I was think the same thing.

[@Butterfly-truth]

That's shame culture right there. Worried about their public "face" rather than truth. Worried about their reputation. Every cult exactly the same. "Make us look good" is the rule rather than godly principle. The shepherds are more important than the sheep. But Jesus gave his life for the sheep. He'll do anything to help them. Not so the pretenders!

[@sandrawest2844]

My thoughts exactly but also the way Michael was treated was dishonouring and at no time did the leader sit down with him and explain what Michael had actually done all the way through he was in the dark and still is. That is not proper leadership he would not listen to Michael and try and work things out instead he buried his own feelings and acted on them there was nothing that Michael could do. He was ousted out and I agree God has used this to move him out of place where he was given no room to grow. Rev Sandra West xx

[@stevenwilliams7410]

There was nothing given that Michael could repent for or learn from. Not the way Jesus taught His deciples for sure!

[@louisaccardi2268]

Whiteacker, don't be so quick to call a group a cult.

[@dw5523]

Why they needed to share this is because there are people out there like me and my wife, who share this experience 100%, and need to hear that we're not alone. We lost every relationship we had in a church we went to for our entire adult lives. My wife still cries about it. Our kids lost every friend they'd ever had and the only church they'd ever known. Hearing Mike's story, and that his experience so closely mirrored our own, has been encouraging and healing to my heart - especially the fact that he's been able to recover and continue ministry. I was scared I was too damaged to ever be useful again.

[@asg8648]

It seems to be similar to a cult.

[@samf8887]

♥️ your experience moved me. I am holding you all up in prayer 🙏

[@dw5523]

@@samf8887 Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Praise God we had a couple very good friends outside that church who helped us through, and are now in a healthy church, with healthy relationships, and are getting better every day.

[@dw5523]

@@asg8648 In structure and function, absolutely. Questioning 'headship' is akin to questioning God - even though no one will come right out and say that - so leaving is akin to leaving God. Like Pastor Mike, I am loyal to a fault, so would have stayed unless forced out by circumstance.

[@larahamilton2273]

Much love to you 🤗✨🕊️

[@RebeccaAMoore]

There is no wounding like the wounding from a church. As a pastor’s wife I can tell you the hurt goes both ways. Thank you for being transparent about your experience- which reveals an unbiblical leadership model of too much power concentrated in too few hands. People may not like denominational structures, but they do offer protection from this abuse. That being said, God can use anything for our good. Ty Remnant Radio for always innovative and important, content.

[@carolfleming8963]

I was part of 2 denominations and 1 apostolic. The denominations were worse than the apostolic one. But it had its issues, too.

[@THEROOTMATTERS]

SO TRUE! ONE DOES NOT EXPECT TO BE KICKED OUT OF GOD's HOUSE. I KNOW THE BIBLE TALKS OF THE ACTION OF A DISFELLOWSHIPPING FOR THE UNREPENTANT. NOT BEING ABLE TO CONVERSE ABOUT ANY ALLEGATION WAS BEYOND SCRIPTURAL. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SHARING. MAY GOD BLESS YOU FOR ETERNITY.

[@christopherbassett9046]

No, they don't. I've experienced this from within a denomination - and seen it among friends' careers, as well. The truth is that only God can affirm us pastors. Each disappointment I have experienced has always led to a promotion, as God sees the hearts - and wants each heart to grow (whether the at fault person or the one harmed). It is hard to go through, but I imagine it was for John-Mark, all the way until he heard that Paul wanted him sent to him because he found so much comfort in Mark's presence. Sometimes reconciliation takes awhile, and even the most amazing Apostles hurt others.

[@jeffurey6399]

I was a pastor's son. I know the microscope they put me under. My mom went through a lot in 35 years in the ministry supporting my father. I trust you have found peace.

[@kimberleemorris8790]

It’s rampant in denominations.

[@NickTarterOKC]

I had a similar experience in a Baptist church years ago so this sort of abuse isn't limited to NAR churches. It's all too common in American churches today.

[@lindararey8641]

Exactly. My experiences were not in NAR churches, but they did have a structure where the pastor was for all intents and purposes the "emperor" (they would call it a Moses type of leadership) and the elders were there to protect the pastor.

[@NicoleSerreli1974]

Not only in America, I went to a NAR church here in the Netherlands and by God's grace and discernment at last I learned what this church was about. I confronted the apostle about the false doctrines he was teaching and he looked at me at a way that I was never looked at, it was frightening, he said: I know you are demon possessed! I see them all arround you! I left and never went back. Later I heard that anyone leaving that church was regarded as being an unbeliever. There was so much sin in that church, adultery, sexual immorality, lying, slander. God took me out, isolated me and taught me His Word, the real Gospel and prepared me to finally seek and find a biblically sound church and He led me to a sweet, small fellowship ♥️

[@MaccaBased]

And in Australian churches, sadly.

[@Henriette-van-der-Ende]

@@NicoleSerreli1974 I know, I'm also from the Netherlands. Saw a lot of people hurt by it

[@HowieReid]

@@lindararey8641 sadly we were Elders (in true meaning) for ten years and served at our church for 30 years...the pastor and a new un-inducted 'elder' led the charge to marginalise us, gaslight and then give us the ultimatum...either resign or be dismissed. The other Elders fell into line and their knife job was finalised. Possibly one of the most excruciating painful experience of our lives...We are seeing this in so many churches and the model of church structure allows for power-players to 'win' each time causing carnage. Michael's story had so many similarities for us. We are in NZ so it is not just a USA issue. We are just starting to see a ministry emerging to shepherd and care for those with these wounds.

[@TheCowboyCalls]

Listening to this episode with tears rolling down my face. I’m currently battling my first real season of “church hurt” - and it so happens to be from a NAR church. Thank you for sharing your story.

[@lynnm.2019]

The Lord will use every bit of what you went through for the benefit of others, heal your hurt and great disappointment, and as in all our suffering, use it to tether you to Himself and Himself alone. 😊🙌🏼Been there beloved. Praying for you. ✝️🫂❤️

[@roundhouserenovations3072]

What you need to realize I think is that this is cult-like behavior

[@christopherbassett9046]

It's human behavior. Having had a father that was in the Rajneeshi cult, I think you may be using the word "cult" way too liberally.@@roundhouserenovations3072

[@comeasachild]

I love listening and learning from Dan Mohler and his Kingdom Living School. He often says how concerned he is about this whole "culture of honor" teaching in the church. He challenges a lot of ways the church thinks that are not the Gospel, which is denying ourselves, picking up our crosses, and following Him.

[@cherilynhamilton746]

A lot of churches would love to have you for a pastor!!!!! You are humble and honest.

[@AaronR.Williams]

Wow, that prophetic word from the lady in the shop is soooo moving and powerful! What a moment.

[@TheTrueLoveJourney]

That was definitely a good story.

[@harpazohope]

Church hurt is one of the worst kind of hurts.

[@eileenmcgrath4457]

Thank God Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth....and He leads us and guides us into all truth. So thankful!!!

[@lynnm.2019]

Yes, Amen and Amen Eileen!! And of course Roman’s 8:28!😊🙌🏼✝️🫂❤️

[@JuliexSteadman]

..yes to those who are listening and want to do whats right. he hides the truth from those who dont 2 Thess 2:10-13

[@lindararey8641]

I also want to add that my heart broke for Michael Miller. I appreciate his soul searching over the matter, but I hope that he can one day recognize that he was totally being gaslighted. The ministry leader never addressed the actual issues. Instead, he used the "deflect and attack" ruse to vilify Michael rather than addressing the issue at hand. I've seen and experienced this in too many churches, and, unfortunately, it's the same tactic used by many of the criminals I had to deal with in my law enforcement career. It's best to just leave those sort of ministries when you see that sort of behavior going on.

[@asg8648]

Agree! It’s like Christian witchcraft and manipulation. Been there , being brought up in a denominational church and then attending non- denominational for years. I don’t know who to trust anymore. I know God and am a strong student of the word. I miss worshiping with Gods people but I’m over the power trip of Christian leadership and the games.

[@godsstruggler8783]

@@asg8648 I was out of a fellowship for two years and seven months over a 20 year period since being saved. I experienced the gaslighting that Linda speaks of in my first fellowship (non denominational) as I pushed against the increasingly bizarre NAR influence when Todd Bentley came on the scene - because he was commissioned by their heroes of the faith and that was all the testing that was needed. God (and I know it was Him) gave me a series of three dreams that culminated in disaster for the fellowship. I was called to warn them to repent, which I did, and that is when the preaching against me began. I left and seven months later I went to a denominational church that was focused on the Gospel - it was there that the fire damage from my first fellowship was cleaned up. It took me two years to be able to understand a simple reading of the Bible again, thanks to skilled handling of God's word by the pastor and assistant pastor. That came to an end when they closed their doors in 2020 and I never went back after writing to the pastor and asking why they did not enquire of the Lord and automatically believed and obeyed our corrupt government over God's command to meet together. There was a lot of fear in that fellowship OUTSIDE of a Sunday even before the shutdown. Evangelism was taught upon but rarely, if ever, actually done - and I was as guilty as I found myself conforming to the image of my fellowship and forgetting who I was in Christ. So after two years out of fellowship I found myself where you were ten months ago - missing gathering around God's word with God's people. I then stumbled across a sermon on Joshua 8 here on KZbin, God spoke to me clearly, I went to that fellowship last Sunday and realised that that is where I should be right now. I have seen both excesses of the spectrum and seen the power trips whether dry and safe or a mixture of true ministry and demonic. It was not all bad at either fellowship. This time around I am determined to stay close to God and not be swayed to whatever flavour the fellowship currently is. If I can encourage and be encouraged, grow in holiness and boldness in evangelism, be able to minister as well as being ministered to (within reason), not drift into any weird theology as I grow in knowledge - then perhaps I can rediscover who I was in Christ: Free, joyful, desperate for the lost to be saved and know that joy of His salvation for themselves, wanting the best that God has for my brothers and sisters. @ASG We can only put our trust in God and I pray (if He hasn't done so already) you are led back to a place amongst God's people and kept away from any place where the leadership are full of false humility and/or pride and are tending to practise the witchcraft of control and manipulation. Just a thought - there are many smoke and fire damaged Christians out there in the wilderness. Therefore, perhaps God can bring such people together in any local area so that all can minister grace to each other, worship together, strengthen each other - even out of a place of wounding. "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there also am I".

[@chplvr1328]

Reminds me of the shepherding movement of the 70s. Nothing new under the sun.

[@NFTeve]

I study cults, abuse narcissism . Its amazing how many NAR people sound like people coming out of narcissistic abuse. I was in this type of churches and lost my faith for 15 years. thanks for great interview!!

[@blaiseforet2]

This is a great interview. Thank you for sharing and thanks for giving a full picture here guys.

[@Riversoflivingwater82]

Jesus is the head of the church ❤

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the FRISCO campus

[@nicole106015]

I was in a church where everyone submitted to the pastor. Not a NAR church, but no one could hold the pastor or his family accountable.

[@janeschaech5222]

this is excellent on so many levels. thanks to all of you!!

[@lilmisspeace]

Michael Miller: Please continue to pursue that desire to teach people how to read and understand their bible well. I have the same desire after a few years in a spiritually abusive NAR cult-church. No one was teaching me the skills I needed so my life was turned upside down in my ignorance and their abuse and control! Now I KNOW how valuable a good teacher is- and so do you- through the experiences had. Let it be your motivation ❤

[@su....]

i come from a large extended italian family where most of us are not believers and, sadly, we all get along much better than any church i've been part of

[@VeryBasicBible]

This whole show was really, really good. But here's a few things I really liked- Michael Rowntree's wonderful last thought's from 1:12:15 - 1:18:12 and The three books Josh mentioned, from 1:22:20 - 1:24:00 Luther- Eric Mataxis Nine Marks- Mark Dever Feed my Sheep: A Passionate Plea for Preaching= Don Kistler And I greatly like Michael Miller's humble attitude among this all.

[@maryasmonga-knapp8785]

I hope that Michael Miller is being cared for and ministered to. His brokenness is so profound. It breaks my heart. His misery will be his ministry. God bless and prosper him.

[@CushDobbs]

My wife and I suffered for two years in an organization we served in and finally, after heart wrenching prayers, got wisdom that made the decision for us. The question Wisdom put to us was this: "Would it better for the leaders if we left or if we stayed?" We left knowing that was the correct choice.

[@donaldlisle3417]

Michael I so appreciate you!

[@KingdomKelly]

Thank you guys! Thank you Michael for sharing your story. God cares for His sheep and desires a healthy place of growth for His children. 😊🙏I think you did a good job sharing the experience and pointing out error without anger. “Prophetic culture” with no desire for healthy confrontation, discussion and submission to one another needs To be corrected. Yet many are taught “never be negative” only uplift. So healthy repentance and connection never gets restored. God bless you Michael and thank you guys for your passion for the Bride of Christ. Much needed discussions for painful subject.

[@pjdalways]

What a beautiful ending to your story Miller. God speaks, He makes order out of chaos, He heals the brokenhearted ❤❤❤

[@linda7279]

I left a church for many ugly reasons. Make no mistake Jesus came with me. I hear His instruction. The pastor died of stomach cancer and his wife bought a fancy new car with his insurance money. That church building has been bought and sold several times. My faith grows stronger every day. God Bless 🙏🙏🙏

[@bethanyc1647]

This hits close to home. We weren't in leadership but were very active and served in several church ministries. After much prayer and fasting, my husband and I believed God was moving us out of that body for several reasons and the pastor asked us not to tell anyone. We had to leave without saying goodbye to our friends. There's more I don't want to be public, but it's still something I have to continually choose forgiveness for. So painful. Thanks for being willing to talk about the hard of church life.

[@HowieReid]

concerns and alarm bells when the pastor says not to tell anyone...Gaslighting, marginalisation and cones of silence are sadly alive. The fact you weren't allowed to say goodbye to friends...we stood up to it and took it to governance board who then whitewashed it but we went through the process and yes, it took its toll but through it we have seen God in an unique way and minister to the awful hurt and pain. The nagging battle is 'they got away with it'...how do we learnt o live with this stuff!??

[@godsstruggler8783]

@@HowieReid By praying for those who spitefully use you (in any way). We should seek God's restoration for our 'enemies' in the Body and thank God for the many good things that He did in those places we had to leave. He exhorted me to do the same when flipping the script on my having to leave my first fellowship (that became NAR infected) that I would not get bitter in any way and so damage my own testimony and my vertical relationship with Him. Even 13 years later I still find myself praying occasionally for the leadership of that first fellowship - so many very good things happened besides the reason for my exit and I am still thankful today.

[@jessicazachman1903]

The culture of honor propensity for abuse is similar to the effects that the love and respect message has on marriages. Listening to your experience reminds me so much of how many woman are mistreated by their husbands.

[@thenigerianhealthnut115]

This! This is spot on. It's a slippery slope that slides into abuse/dictatorship in many instances.

[@casewooton5492]

we love you, Miller

[@cm2019]

My husband and I are currently looking at navigating an interesting situation in our beloved local church body. This was very timely (I'm a new "watcher", and have been watching many of these videos because they are timely for us right now). Thank you so much! Praying for all of you and your families.

[@kieranotoole123]

I know telling your story can be hard as I have gone through similar situations in the past. Thank you, for being vulnerable and open we need more leaders to show this part of the walk and struggle with church work.

[@brandalee21]

Thank you for sharing this. My husband and I were fired from a church and we were told that we needed to stop talking about evangelism and discipleship. Your kicking out of the nest story was very comforting and healing. I can very much see how God did a similar thing in my family. We were very loyal. When we went to the meeting we were told to not talk about the past that the past was buried. You are not alone in your story.

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the Frisco campus

[@SethEngel]

@@iLikeBeans481are you sure it is?

[@iLikeBeans481]

⁠@@SethEngelYes, look up “Michael Hats Miller” Upperroom Frisco

[@cprvmd]

Thanks so much for posting this. This chimes so much with the experience I have had. It’s taken a long time for me to process it. I recognise the same bewilderment and confusion I suffered when trying to understand and parse out my own responsibility and the abuse of the church. I wasn’t in leadership, but was committed and involved in a church with a lot of the attributes you described. My church leader was a full on devotee of Bethel. I live in another country and his dream was to be the extension of Bethel in the country I live in. My former church is part of the Anglican Church so no Apostle in the formal hierarchy, but my leader believed himself to be an Apostle. My thoughts based on my experience is we in the church are naively very trusting and don’t tend to believe our Christian leaders do things wrong. That’s our default setting, they are Christian, they can’t.....and it’s hard to over ride. So if we think they can’t be wrong because that’s our firmly held unconscious belief, then our brain falsely goes to then we must be wrong. Hence the abuse in the church goes unchallenged. People believe these people are who they say they are. We falsely believe they have special powers that we don’t. Hear God in ways we can’t. We don’t live with them day in day out so we don’t see their human faults, so we don’t see who they actually are when they step off the pulpit. They are not demystified. Then there is the culture of honour which makes people afraid to say what they have really experienced even if it’s to their own detriment or the detriment of others because that would be dishonouring the leader. You can’t question the leader in any way or take your concerns to them. What happens is you have no way of compiling a profile of the leader, and everyone else is afraid to speak, so you have no way of verifying is discounting your perception. There is no transparency, a lot of truth is hidden. That would not happen in the secular world. An inquiry would be commissioned, a report would be made. The facts would be reviewed, you would have accounts of all the relevant people’s experiences to figure out what is the truth. That’s healthy. It gives people an accurate picture of what went on and helps alleviate the suffering of the people affected and helps them move on. The church is able to perpetuate abuse, because there is no mechanism for accountability. At my church there was a total cover up of the activities of my leader, by him and by the powers that be. Elders and the people in the know were afraid to talk about the abuses of power, but anyone who did know the facts left, they people who didn’t know stayed. People left because the cornerstone of our particularly church was actually a repentance ministry. The hypocrisy and lack of integrity drove many people out. When half the church left my former leader and his wife said that they had a prophetic picture of the people who had left and that they saw that all the people who left had snakes and spiders attached to them. I was shocked not only by the complete suppression of the truth, but especially by their outlandish characterisation of the people who left. Some of them their closest friends. So I completely understand your experience and I really hope you can begin to see this very clearly and are able to move on. I no longer question myself over this like I did, as you are, but feel I gain valuable insight to human behaviour, and the church. I also picked up a few things from this video to help clarify a few more things for me.

[@thejoel82]

I cannot tell you how prophetic Roundtree's last words are to me, 'don't give up on the Church'. Thank you Miller for sharing. Listened to this when it was recorded, in the beginning stages of walking through a similar situation and now a year later almost I can't not tell you how much your vulnerability in sharing help me walk through it. Thank you.

[@yohanabraham245]

Man, such a great episode, Michael Miller loved the posture of your heart, blessings!

[@inkeridabson6360]

This seems to happen when apostolic leadership is interpreted as top down leadership just as a worldly system operates. Jesus took the towel… I’m sorry for the spiritual abuse. This episode is great to help it won’t happen so often! Thank you

[@maryannblair9784]

I was surprised to find this discussion excellent. Great pastoring points of view. I respect all three of you for your insight into what happened and how best to overcome it.

[@caroleimani9754]

When I left the "1970's" Church I had a combination of joy and sadness. I was joyful, because I got out from under "control" but I was super sad because I missed my friends that I had made in the past 9 years. I told the Lord: "I think I'm going to die from loneliness," but I didn't. I think I am being healed, even after all of these years!

[@HowieReid]

oh my...where do I begin...there are sooo many similarities to to hurt and recovery journey my husband and I have been on. We were Elders in the true description of the role (not a deacon) and not yes man (husband). We served in our church for 30 years and the time frame is even the same...2 and a half years we have been on this journey in all its awfulness... so much gaslighitng and marginalisation over several months then an ultimatum to resign or be dismissed. We testify that God has held us through this and yes, even like it was said - you were too loyal you would never have moved...we have seen God's providence, deep healing and God's word in a new and magnificent way. Our children too, so very blessed in their own faith in God journey....when there was a danger that they could have walked away. Our Christian life is enriched and we have such a beautiful hand of God leading us on. Thank you for speaking out. It helps in the processing. We are human - we have human responses in pain and it can be truly awful. We see others through a new lense of comapssion and we can be there for others in their walk where they have experienced suffering. We have lost friends but we have found so many new friends and seen who would be all weather friends. I cannot say how thankful I am for this message today. Perhaps God is cleaning up His church and He wants his Bride to be ready and be as He wants it to be. A culture of repentence and servitude would heal a lot of wounds...God Bless

[@RodneyGeisler]

I’ve been a part of two churches with similar experiences. One we were on staff and I got fired. Thanks for sharing. These stories help us heal.

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the Frisco campus. The church is still bad lacks sound doctrine, evangelism, and has strange fire

[@yeishaadhosein6510]

Courageous and informative convo. Listening. Great job guys.

[@racheljoyenns]

When someone asks for clarification, most people give evidence for the situation. It is passive aggressive to respond "you should know", "you figure it out".

[@nickmartin6130]

I JUST WANNA SAY THANK YOU!!! This sincerely brought healing to my heart

[@digitalpastorjim]

I attended a local church, and had a similar experience with the Pastor, he asked me to serve as a Elder, but really only wanted me as a "yes man", and quickly disbanded the Elders as I began to serve and lead, they excuse of disbanding the Elders and me, is I didn't understand the "Vison" of the ministry,

[@godmakesnew]

Exactly. If you are going to run your church like a business or para church ministry then do not claim it's a church and that it's a "family". If it's a business it's a business. Everyone knows what to expect. I wouldn't go into Subway and expect leadership to listen to my criticism, I'm a customer. That's how churches like these treat people...as consumers. Fine. Just don't claim to be a church.

[@michelleogawa6332]

Thank you miller, for being so vulnerable

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the FRISCO campus

[@wayneburchell6346]

Deja vu. I remember being a participant on a similar firing meeting and I went along with it as a young Christian (almost 30 years ago now). A year later, the wool was pulled from my eyes and I had my own 'firing', with friends being the mouthpiece of the the leadership, although I had actually left by that time. "What did I say and who did I say it to?" I remember asking the same question and the response was basically the same - we don't know, but you must have said it because that's what he told us. It's my guess that the history of the church is littered with those accused and cast aside. Jesus modelled bottom up leadership: serve. The church has often ended up no different from the world.

[@sthornton1972]

At first I thought NAR was short for what is Narcissist. As I have heard these stories from people. Also my own Chrurch hurt and having malignant narcissists from my dad to X-wife. What he described is clear to me is narcissistic abuse. I pray for the people who are gonna through this as a separation of false and real. Thank you for this. It helps me to see more clear what seems to be going on. The reconciliation meeting the 2nd one was clear narcissistic behavior. I went through the same thing with the 2 people who slandered me to family. Wow. I am shocked to hear this story that a pastor went through the same thing I did. Outside the church.

[@shelleywhite1949]

Thank you Michael for sharing. We were shocked when you were let go. We love you and your family and appreciated you! We left for some of the same reasons. I do not believe this has to do with "NAR" and hate to see charismatic churches labeled this or with this dysfunction. I have seen this in Baptist churches, Bible Churches, it happens in all churches when the senior pastor/founder is put on a pedestal or puts themself on the pedestal. I think the original charismatic movement came from pentecostal roots but over the decades people of all denominations have come to this movement and it is now different at each church depending on "their" theology and mindset. We have to remember we are all on a journey of learning and growing into the knowledge and fullness of Christ. No one is perfect and we all need grace; although leadership should be held accountable and what I found is that as someone who is now 60 it is hard when all the church staff is very young, not as experienced and many have wounds they are not aware of and then throw in immaturity and if there is not a board or elders that hold leaders accountable it is a recipe for toxic leadership. I am so sorry you and your family had to go through this.

[@aero1370]

What church did you attend?

[@josephalbatross5961]

@@aero1370 Stop trying to squeeze the name of the church out of people. Using the issues at this church as an example benefits the Body of Christ. How does it benefit a KZbin audience to know the church?

[@bethfollowerofChrist]

So good to hear this. I was in my industry for 32 years. I never would have left. New management seemed really evil and I made the decision to move on. I was told by my step Mom the same thing. It felt so much better. I was loyal, I never would have left and my family always came second. Now God comes 1st. Family next and job next.

[@dorothyhinz3543]

Thank you so much for sharing your story, Michael. I went through something kind of similar in a Word of Faith church where I was slowly pushed out of a church position because of the one leader who felt I didn't share the "vision". I too prayed, cried out to God, went to counselling, and searched my heart for what I had done wrong. In the end I left but was very upset for many years. Church abuse is still alive and well, which just breaks my heart. Evil just keeps reinventing itself in these types of churches where their staff is over worked and underpaid. The heart of these leaders is constantly power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Praise God that he does work things out for our good, but in his timing.

[@theferrys100]

Thanks guys! I went through something similar. This has helped me heal more.

[@triciadawnreynolds9498]

I really appreciate the thoughtful discussion here and wish to commend Michael for his courage and vulnerability as well as his humility sharing his story. These things need to be brought to light and our discernment needs to be sharp. Blessings to all of you 😊🙏

[@sharonthrelfall7174]

Thanks for sharing, my heart goes out to all those who are damaged in this way by those who follow NAR teaching and structures, I know how it feels, I speak from bitter experience, my family was torn apart, we lost all our church friends, family members and positions within the church, 5years down the line, we’re still affected by it all, but we thank God that we got free.

[@JamesStonley]

I can't wait till we get to heaven and there will be no denominations

[@keith3362]

I almost worked for a church in the 90’s, now that I’m older I’m so glad I never went that route. Paul, a real apostle, who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament, was a tent maker and worked at least some of the time so no one would have anything to say against him. Leaders today not only demand a salary, a lot of them just want to be rich. I now work for a company that is probably way better to work for than any church would be, sad to say but it’s true. Especially churches that say the apostle has all authority and cannot be questioned. I was once told by leadership at a church that you cannot disagree about anything. I left that place within a few weeks.

[@eileenmcgrath4457]

That restaurant story was so great!!! Tears of joy for you, Michael ❤ God is greater than it all and He loves you so much 😂

[@gillianroberts446]

Thank you for the last words to clarify my fears

[@mammabear4342]

It’s interesting that a church setup is based off of some book someone wrote, as opposed to referring to the Bible.

[@TheLordismightyinbattle]

I thought nar was mostly all about the 7 mountain mandate, sort of dominionism, etc. 🤔 I’m one to stay FAR away from NAR, yet I’m not sure how prayer mapping is wrong. Any Christian can walk their towns, homes, neighborhoods and prayer for them, covering them with the blood of Jesus... some things you are calling radical and unbiblical, such as prayer mapping, is odd to me and does not seem heretical nor unbiblical. I’m only 16 minutes in though so this might get answered yet 😆😅.

[@rufusthenaturalman9205]

Their walk does not line up with scriptures. If they're not keeping God's commandments, they're liars and there is no truth in them. - I John 2:3.

[@cord11ful]

Spot on! We're not to add to the bible; the bible IS the ultimate authority, it is God-breathed. NAR relegates it to a book to be selectively cherry picked to bolster MAN'S "vision". Let's all get back to having CHRIST JESUS on the throne and as the authority of our lives, not immature, egotistical, power-hungry men. The only prophetic word I listen to is GOD'S, and His Word is God-breathed and answers ALL our necessary questions, and gives us all the instruction we need to follow Him and live Godly lives, IF we submit our will to His, humbly.

[@hansonr22]

@@TheLordismightyinbattle So, just want to be clear. Are you saying that our prayers cover people with the blood? We distribute the grace of the blood with our prayers?

[@rebeccaz4364]

@@TheLordismightyinbattle Where in the bible anyone covered anybody in the blood of Jesus? Any verse please?

[@kristymarsh960]

I great book I read after being hurt by church leadership was “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.” I recommend it 100%

[@lynnm.2019]

Based on the title alone, I would read it. I have been well out of such a church for many years now, but I would still be tempted to read this book, and may just at least peruse it, to also be able to recommend it as you have. Sadly but prophetically it still permeates the “church” especially in the USA. Thanks sis!😊🙌🏼✝️🫂❤️

[@SociallyAwkwardRedHead]

Excellent book! Great to help get past the gaslighting to find clarity.

[@michellecampos9844]

It’s literally the play book on spiritual abuse sadly

[@marietsvanas6992]

I'm sorry that this happened to you and your family. The Church desperately needs pastors like you.

[@ruthvansandt9713]

Looking forward to listening to this tomorrow... I too was fired from a NAR church...

[@Vern_Levine]

26+ years ago I had my run in with spiritual abuse when I worked at a big regional Christian radio network. The publicly beloved head had a unique way of making his employees to feel unspiritual and divisive. Similar to how this apostle acted to those under him. Ultimately it came down to control- and he wanted all of it. He was one of the most intimidating men I’ve ever met. He didn’t seem to love anyone but he loved his ministry. Long story short I learned back then to not trust public personas and that the public can be easily deceived. I also learned some things about what isn’t good for a good ministry. I was hurt for a long time after that situation.

[@beclear2473]

Preach the Word!

[@waitwhat564]

Yes!!! Not enough of it!

[@terryhuffaker3615]

The church he describes has the hierarchy of a cult.. So sad..😢

[@JuliexSteadman]

..yes absolutley based on William Branhams teaching... See this book by an ex Branham cult member, well researched John Andrew Collins - 'Preacher behind the white hoods' - yep Branham had different persona's... and he was a preacher to the Klu Klux Klan...

[@Wisebury]

he liked them until they parted ways. but he was just too "persuasive". He was the best and the victim, best of both worlds. This is not the Gospel.

[@aero1370]

What church is it he is describing?

[@intrvrtdpyrldblog6568]

@21:56 , good question, I experienced the same from a church I went to, the set-up of leaders and the way they approach confrontations... these things are happening, what Bro. Mike experienced was real, "church structure and church culture" - these terms were also what I had observed having issues with - we are not even NAR, we are an "evangelical" one, it's like Churches are more concerned of having "church identity"... but Christ is our identity, and churches should not depart from that core TRUTH... ...I'm glad to watch your episode... this helped me process what did happen to me, too... I'm speaking from opposite your country...

[@irremedy]

This is troubling and heart-breaking. This is the way authoritarianism and gas-lighting works. We are called to love one another, that the world should know us by our love. No part of the way the firing was done was loving. Thank you for sharing this story. I wish it was NOT common, but it is, and it's terrible. There IS application that can come out of this. More people need to hear, to see behind the curtain. My own family has experienced things like it. I am blessed by the humility on display, the desire not to cause harm, but to point out how poorly this was done, and to say that change is possible.

[@bethfollowerofChrist]

So good Michael Roundtree. Amen.

[@dorothytolliver7169]

Thank you. I've been guilty of reading the Bible for a "daily word" from God and then taking the word out of context for a person word of direction. Guilty but now aware of the error. Now hungry for real deep teaching of the Bible.

[@jimdaniel7297]

DR. Michael Heiser is a beautiful man teaching accurately what the Dead Sea Scrolls actually mean ,humble & funny too...

[@peterszirtes7236]

This is a very good conversation. I am very familiar with this kind of procedure described here. Very sad reality but very useful to bring these out of the dark silence in this great way.

[@kwamrak777]

NAR was popularized by C. Peter Wagner with Cindy Jacobs and Chuck Pierce as NAR prophets. Now it is organized by John Kelly with prophets such as Bill Hamon with the Peter Wagner offshoots run by Che Ahn, Bill Johnson and others with Cindy Jacobs. But even people like Mark Driscoll and many ARC pastors run their churches like the “apostolic” model. I know all of these scenes very well.

[@johncampbell463]

At the top of the pyramid of the apostolic-prophetic movement is Joseph Mattera of USACL. John Kelly is top of ICAL but does not have the same influence as USACL although there is much cross over. They are basically all "aligned" with each other with "influence" and money being key. Required tithing is taught by Joe Mattera. Chuck Pierce is very influential and most highly respected "apostle-prophet." The most disconcreting "thing" in USACL is there is zero Biblical revelation of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. Jesus is our New Covenant. And Jesus came to earth to inaugurate the new covenant via His precious perfect new covenant blood offered in heaven once for all for our eternal redemption. Been apart of this movement since 1980 and witnessed the degeneration of the testimony of Jesus up close beginning with the political gospel and prosperity gospel.

[@arminius504]

There is no unified NAR group. All non denominational churches are NAR according to the theologian who came up with the term. He came up with the term to describe the phenomenon and incredible growth of Christianity with non denominational churches. The label has no doctrinal meaning these churches agree on. They didn’t come up with the term nor are they a unified group. Most don’t even know they are considered NAR. These days it’s used to group people together and attack them and people act like there is a NAR agenda. It’s one of the most disingenuous labels out there. I am tired of disingenuous people and heresy hunters who use the label and spread this false perception. There is no group that is unified and called NAR. Online heresey hunters (especially in Calvinistic circles) have been pushing this wrong narrative for far too long.

[@caroleimani9754]

@@arminius504 Why do you keep saying the same thing over and over again?? Are you a troll??

[@andreapril6969]

@@arminius504 I'm no calvinist but the NAR and 7 mountain mandate is inseparable. the 7 mountain mandate is the agenda of the nar. word of faith / prosperity theology is a direct flow of the NAR movement . please read Rev 17 and see who conquers and actually sits on the 7 mountains. do you see a parallel between the autocratic rule of the roman catholic church and their popes' rule before the reformation and what NAR apostels like katherin krick are calling for like when she had her manic "prophetic warning" rant to "traditional" non-NAR churches ...

[@ivanasimic2072]

You two guys from remnant are irtitable, let man to talk. Blessings to you Michael. Support from Croatia

[@geoffreyturnham4640]

Everything old is new again. I grew up in a hyper-shepherding church in the 70's which turned into a cult. NAR churches are cut from the same cloth. Thank you Michael, for sharing this painful story but in hindsight I think you dodged a bullet.

[@arminius504]

There is no unified NAR group. All non denominational churches are NAR according to the theologian who came up with the term. He came up with the term to describe the phenomenon and incredible growth of Christianity with non denominational churches. The label has no doctrinal meaning these churches agree on. They didn’t come up with the term nor are they a unified group. Most don’t even know they are considered NAR. These days it’s used to group people together and attack them and people act like there is a NAR agenda. It’s one of the most disingenuous labels out there. I am tired of disingenuous people and heresy hunters who use the label and spread this false perception. There is no group that is unified and called NAR. Online heresey hunters (especially in Calvinistic circles) have been pushing this wrong narrative for far too long.

[@Myrdden71]

Yes, some of this did sound rather cult-ish. I emphasize 'some.'

[@dougmichalak5687]

Me too...grew up in the discipleship movement under Charles Simpson. I cringe every time I see some kind of hierarchical authority thing in the church...

[@simplyafederalist]

Yay it really depended who was discipling. My mom and dad had no issues but they had lots of friends in the same church that got hurt majorly.

[@cynthiahamlin8059]

Were you in the Way Ministry?

[@andrearush6209]

Thank you for sharing your story. 1:14 - thank you again.

[@jessedutch3086]

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I can tell it's difficult, much respect. I've been through the hyper charismatic movement also. A very shameful periode of my faith that took years for me to talk about. Often authoritarian problems and mass manipulation. Snake pits and rabbit holes (edited: added) Brother, through this whole painful process you have learned so much and can be a blessing to the Church. Hold on to Christ and use the gifts that have been expensed to you.

[@Happydance4joy]

Oh my goodness …. This is confirmation …. Our stories are so so similar I am going through some of this right now

[@jamil2907]

i used to go to this church. i remember receiving prayer from Michael after a teaching he did. i could tell he genuinely cared and had real compassion. he suddenly disappeared and i never really saw him again. been struggling tremendously with problems i’ve experienced in community at this church.. that’s the #1 complaint of the many people who have left it. finally decided a few weeks ago to move on.. so interesting seeing this video confirm many feelings i didn’t have words for about this community and church.

[@michaelmiller5024]

Sorry Jamil

[@michaelmiller5024]

I'm

[@jq8974]

What church was this?

[@josephalbatross5961]

The speaker in this video went out of his way to avoid naming the church organization. I think we should honor this. Naming the church takes away from the mission.

[@michael_homan]

@@jq8974 Upper Room

[@holleknox5746]

Wow this is 2yrs ago ~ I feel like you were in the fire ~ thanks for illustrating what it is like ~ I must always know ~ Jesus is right there with me in these times and all times 🦅❤️🦅❤️🦅❤️

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the FRISCO campus

[@elise3036]

I have been to a meeting like this once. I will not put myself in a situation like that again. I don't give up on church, but any meetings with closed doors are a hard pass. Nope. Nope. Nope. Reconciliation meetings can be code for verbal abuse meetings.

[@Beta_soy_chad]

A tough one to listen to. Thanks for sharing.

[@samf8887]

These men show a very biblical balanced approach toward correction and it convicts me to act more in biblical gentleness when sharing or pointing out things that are not scriptural. As an aside...while I don't think NAR congregants are heretics NAR structure is heretical in many ways.

[@anniekierstead5419]

Thank you for this. I'm sorry for the hurt they caused you. 😥

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the Frisco campus. The church is still bad lacks sound doctrine, evangelism, and has strange fire

[@lorriegallardo8053]

The devil is sneaky. He is in a lot of churches.

[@IMAGINENGINE]

Michael Miller is a beloved part of the Remnant Radio program.

[@stephenwooten6413]

Wasn't a part of NAR, but I have experienced the demonational authority and way. Things said and the things you thought about when questioning the leaders, elders and even yourself I have walked out. God bless you guys for the discussion. Jesus Is Lord!!

[@SheilaODrane]

As a church community there must be respect for each other and truth. Lack of self examination is a problem. Additionally there must be a clear, effective organizational structure. Aside from doctrine, these organizations, whether religious or secular, will fail. Humans want to be respected. If the leaders are not emotionally mature, able to address and resolve conflict, the organization will not succeed. The number 1 reason given by people who leave a job is, "I was not listened to."

[@poyashahsavari6950]

Oh wow! Thank you so much for sharing Michael. As I work the night shift and listen to this, it is a struggle to hold back my tears since there isn’t a single issue that I can’t relate to. A couple of years, I was publicly defamed and slandered behind my back to the church as a psychopath, wolf in sheep’s clothing, bipolar, and they went so far as to say I was manipulative and quoted a person who said that the only scenario where divorce is encouraged is if someone is married to a person like me. That didn’t take well for my wife for obvious reasons... These meetings was with both of the churches I was a founder of, and the only reason that the one church I was pastoring was there, is because we were supposed to have a meeting of reconciliation, but as I met the other leaders before, I wasn’t allowed into the main building since he owned them. Since the accusations was so extreme, other pastors wanted to figure it out and had a talk with them for three hours and asked 3 questions: 1. Have you followed the Matthew 18 process regarding excommunication? 2. Have any of you ever corrected the accused of any sins mentioned? 3. Do you have any foundation or proof for any of the accusations? No question was replied, but the reasoning was that I had excommunicated myself by preaching against the house church vision (which wasn’t specified in any way?) I was simply leading the church I was pastoring into a healthy ecclesiology, and this was the reaction. Not to mention the many people we had led to Christ who left the other leaders church, being forbidden to come to us behind closed doors, and eventually wanted to come to us after I found this out after about a year. They would say to the crowd that since I’m a psychopath, There is no way they could count on their own discernment, nor could they count on their knowledge of scripture since I know the Bible so well. They quoted the story of Nadab and Abihu (an argument for the regulative principle) and claimed that The Lord has to show and reveal strange fire since there is no other way to know it, and that The Lord had revealed that I was nebuchanessar? I was called a legalist since I had proposed a Baptistic or perhaps a Pentecostal confession of faith, but that was legalistic because I wasn’t content with Nicea (that we believe) even though the Catholic Church confirms it, and we only practice adult baptism? It didnt help The situation that The other leader was The boss of The company I worked at. So I stand there, with people Ive served for year suspicious , hurt and confused beyond words, no job, a financial crisis (I was cheated out of quite a lot of money) and broken. About a week later, my wife gives me the news that she’s pregnant! A couple of years later; I’m thankful, belonging to a network of healthy churches, leading a church plant, where these horrific scenarios aren’t imaginable. I have never felt so healthy and well in my walk with Christ and my marriage has never been better. Many of those who was hurt by this horrific situation are today following Christ with us, restored especially in their trust in others. My little boy being one and a half year is completely comfortable as we worship the Lord together. Both me and others have time after time, come to the conclusion and said: “the Lord took us out from this unhealthy culture”. I culture I was myself part of, and couldn’t put my finger on what was wrong for years. And when I finally could, it all went south, well, that’s if one doesn’t take the workings of the Lord into account. How could stuff like this happen? What should we watch out for? How can we lay a healthy foundation that dosent give or promote such unhealthy tendencies? I find your story very clarifying on those questions. Once again, thank you, it was comforting to my soul.

[@ryanehlis426]

So it is true that dealing with territorial spirits is a specialized thing. Most people don’t know what that is.

[@spencer1854]

Thanks for sharing your story Miller

[@markscott4830]

The more i lsten to you guys the more I like what you are saying.

[@iLikeBeans481]

The Church Michael was talking about is UPPERROOM DALLAS, he was the pastor at the Frisco campus. The church is still bad lacks sound doctrine, evangelism, and has strange fire

[@mrcarroll1386]

Sadly it's not only NAR leadership that shows traits like this. My family have faced an almost identical story to Mike's at our local church here in England. A singular leader with minimal accountability and a single minded 'vision'. All the talented individuals in the body who don't fit the bill get pushed out, usually via social manipulation. I can't help but think a poor eldership structure can easily lead to narcissistic senior ministers having effective total control. Such a shame. Lord Jesus, please fix us. Fix the ailments we allow in your body on this earth. 🙏

[@Rivingtons-go3vg]

People throw around the word NAR too much and need to think more about just narcissism.

[@IMAGINENGINE]

God showed up in this episode when you guys made Miller tell the “God is kicking you out of the nest “ story and prophecies. That’s our God. That’s His story of redemption for His own. Our God reigns!

[@donaldlisle3417]

Been in many of these meetings,

[@irremedy]

Your discussion of the necessity of good hermeneutic is also great.

[@Fmone177]

I am the lead and founding Pastor of my church. Many of asked me the question as to why we didn't have an Apostle over our church. And I immediately responded with the Word of God and refuted their ideology. We as Pastor must protect the flock of God against this NAR.

[@arminius504]

There is no unified NAR group. All non denominational churches are NAR according to the theologian who came up with the term. He came up with the term to describe the phenomenon and incredible growth of Christianity with non denominational churches. These churches are not unified or even know each other. The label has no doctrinal meaning these churches agree on. They didn’t come up with the term nor are they a unified group. Most don’t even know they are considered NAR. These days it’s used to group people together and attack them and people act like there is a NAR agenda. It’s one of the most disingenuous labels out there. I am tired of disingenuous people and heresy hunters who use the label and spread this false perception. There is no group that is unified and called NAR. Online heresey hunters (especially in Calvinistic circles) have been pushing this wrong narrative for far too long.

[@kevink9938]

@@arminius504 copy/pasta much?

[@psalm85godwins14]

Thanks for all your shows, love it!

[@scottspeig]

Thank you for this episode - As a lay-person, I see quite a bit of this in my church, which is what I am currently fighting against. This is so helpful as a way to see how it operates and that I am not that weird for thinking the way I do!

[@carolwilliams5337]

His idea of teaching the scripture is great!

[@Kets4eki_fan55]

I think it’s important to know that “the church” is a body of believers. Not a building or association or denomination. When people say they give up on church, often they mean these structures that can be so damaging. However, the Church is the body of believers and that can be met outside of traditional means. Online groups. Friends gathering to study the Bible together. There are other ways to keep connected but avoid abusive situations. 💯

[@paulkern8847]

I knew the NAR when it was the Latter Rain Movement. It became Dominion Theology and now NAR. Beliefs and teachings overlap.

[@WhyPentecostal]

There is still a Latter Rain church group in South Africa we call the Blou Rokkies (Blue Dresses) All the women dress in blue dresses with hair in buns a really strange bunch

[@shell3775]

I'm still looking for someone to explain what NAR stands for.

[@roadlesstravelled9141]

@@shell3775 new apostolic reformation