What Has Gone Wrong With Star Wars?

[@neonatalpenguin]

Guys, The Acolyte was a terrible show. End of story. Notice how Andor wasn't "review bombed" or subject to "a rampage of vitriol" despite having an ethnically diverse cast? That's because Tony Gilroy is a great writer. The question ought to be: Why is a terrible show getting treated with kid gloves by critics?

[@Superdelphinus]

It wasn’t terrible at all, and if nothing else it was finally something new and different in the Star Wars universe. So I guess we’re just going to be about endless stories about the same 20 odd year period :/. As usual, the problem with Star Wars is Star Wars fans.

[@jezlawrence720]

The "same" people Disney are blaming - KZbin reviewers - absolutely did not slam andor. They basically universally loved it. The criticism of acolyte absolutely is not coming from the place Disney is pretending it's from, it's because it watches like it was written by a bunch of ten year old improv students going "...and then..." ...and I say that as someone who watched all of it, and quite enjoyed parts of it. There were good concepts in there, but terrible, terrible storytelling.

[@Stephg128]

I have no "irons" in this star wars back and forth. I just wanted to comment that the claim that it's the star wars fans that are the issue. I would have thought any product should look at understanding their core base and look to bring the fans with them and then increase the overall fan base by new people picking up on the good reviews. So why would you look to blame existing fans? It seems to be like Taylor Swifts next album being a thrash album. OK some of her existing fans might like it as its different but I would "imagine" most would not be happy and then express their unhappiness. Anyway random ramblings!

[@aidanmac2002]

I got about 15 minutes into the first episode of this show and gave up on it. It was terrible. When it started, I went ok, this looks interesting, Carrie Anne Moss as a Jedi, excellent. Then she died along with the show.

[@northeu]

@@Stephg128 Reimagined for a modern audience, which would be fine if this modern Audience they claim to be catering for at the exclusion of the old fans watched these shows, but they don't

[@cameirusisu1024]

Marina's habit of blaming fans is pretty pathetic tbh. Sure some people are toxic, but the simple truth is the acolyte is just bad. As were the last 2 films. They were bad and they also just rode roughshod over existing lore and the established sw universe. You cant do that then blame fans of that universe when they rightly take issue with it. Stop writing awful products, and fans will react positively (Andor, madalorian...)

[@alexwilliamrussell]

meh

[@gavinneedham2013]

No. You think it was bad. Doesn’t mean it actually was. Star Wars in particular is a perfect example of fans ruining the franchise. You only think the original is good and it’s pure nostalgia based hatred of what is new.

[@alexwilliamrussell]

Star Wars has special problem. If you write a new book with Harry Potter and he was a bit evil or stupid it would annoy you. . Or new book with James Bond.... Or new tv series with Star Fleet. ... Making heroes more interesting by adding flaws is annoying to fans who came as children ... So yes Acolyte making Jedi fools can seem bad...

[@artair70]

@@gavinneedham2013 It certianlt was bad if the fans can't even generate them the money, the franchise is known in Hollywood as being a disaster.

[@Samuel-bu7xr]

So youre blaming the fans for the Starwars collapse? Sure, the paying customers must be the cause 🤔

[@markot4616]

In case of Star Wars they definitely are.

[@85481]

@@markot4616 Are they actively preventing anyone but them from consuming the product? If they're your only market and you refuse to sell to them and they hate your product how is that their fault? Are the people talking about how terrible SW fans are swarming to support these properties and creating a whole new fan base?

[@hpoonis2010]

They are most stupidly rabid collective who ever set foot into a cinema. I watched the first movie at my local cinema four times and thought it was fantastic but I was a child and it fit my age-group. However, for the following decades, I have beheld the farce that is the continual deification by the mindless zombies who do the whole jedi-religion crap, dress up as yoda, or celebrate 4th May as some kind of universal awakening...and these are (supposedly) 'mature' adults! Of course they are to blame! Their fanaticism has compelled the satanic entity that is disney to milk the tits of that cow continually since the great pelican, lucas, sold out to them...but he is also to blame for the second trilogy which was also dull and only served as nourishment to the mindless masses. None of it deserves proper case.

[@fozzyami]

The Acolyte was an atrocious waste of money. They attempted to take the thing everyone loves about star wars (the good guys fight the bad guys and despite all the odds, win) and tried to make the good guys in to bad and the actual murdering, kidnapping bad guys be the poor misunderstood good guys who just want love. It was the stupidest bit of writing no one has seen. They fundamentally do not understand what star wars is and why people love it.

[@AnthonyHancock-s7v]

It disappoints me that they chose to blame the fans 🤦

[@LFC4LIFEJEDI]

Here we go again.... Rogue One, Andor, Mandalorian, Ashoka, Visions, Bad Batch etc are loved and highly regarded because they were well written. Acolyte and Obi Wan received negative reviews because they were awful.. It is that simple. Blaming the fans is just pure laziness and shows zero understanding of what is going on.

[@someonespc6564]

andor, ashoka and batch batch all catch a lot of hate online from certain prominent star wars influencers and their fans. There will always be a level of vitriol towards star wars online regardless of quality (not that the acolyte was particularly good)

[@LFC4LIFEJEDI]

@@someonespc6564 You will always a very small but vocal minority of morons regardless of the IP but the vast majority of fans enjoyed these shows. Acolyte on the other hand was just straight up bad.

[@tayporttony]

@@someonespc6564not particularly good? 😳 I’d hate to see your definition of bad ?

[@damianlord7954]

I'd agree with all those points except Ahsoka, that was not well written and definitely not well acted - it was pretty poor overall.

[@TrueDemonLordRimuruTempest]

Ahsoka was mid.

[@0wtRage]

It was genuinely a bad show. End of story.

[@jezlawrence720]

I thought it was "ok" and only ok. It's definitely up there with book of boba fett in terms of being badly written and plagued by poor characterisation.

[@shondellsb604]

It was a great show.

[@guyselway4865]

It was, and the reaction was toxic, two things can be true.

[@ajrh82]

On the other hand, Andor was one of the best series of any genre in recent memory. They better not make a mess of series 2

[@jezlawrence720]

@@shondellsb604 I respectfully but strongly disagree. My immersion was broken repeatedly by silly things like stone being setting on fire at the speed of gasoline and things of that nature, as well as what felt to me to be characters with paper-strong personal convictions and motivations. My eyes were pleased by the flashy sparkles, my brain just got more and more frustrated.

[@markmawer]

Sorry Marina, but you completely sidestepped the Star Wars question. Was the Acolyte actually any good? Why did Disney pay billions for the IP only to ignore the existing fans? Was that a sensible decision? Why haven't the new audience that these shows are aimed at turned up? Why has Kathleen Kennedy who has overseen this ongoing financial disaster that is the Lucasfilms IP post Disney purchase, not only not been sacked but allowed to double down with the diversity hires and plotlines? Nope the answer is review bombing by toxic fans. Nothing to unpack, next question.

[@richardstreet7605]

Exactly

[@virtualal]

She side stepped it because she has exactly the same mindset as the lefty fruitloops at Disney

[@A_BBQ_er]

100% Agree! You nailed it, havent watched many of these, but its like they have no idea, why give your opinion on something if you dont do research. She looked at what way the wind was blowing and just went "Toxic Fans" were the reason it bombed.. What a joke..

[@harmansofearley]

Although "The Tiger who came to tea" was a staple in our house when my kids were young, Every time I hear it mentioned I always think of Sean Lock's Hilarious "The Tiger who came for a pint" on 8 out of 10 cats. :-)

[@NotThatOneThisOne]

I always edited it a bit too remove the appalling sexism!

[@eddy7236]

Acolyte wasn’t shut down. It wasn’t renewed for a second season because people didn’t watch it

[@tana1234]

Blaming the fandom is a bit simplistic, it's funny when fans really enjoy a show that's good (Andor)the fans are the best, when the fans don't like a show The Acolyte and a lot of others Disney have made, the fans are Toxic. The Reality is Lucas Arts under Kathleen Kennedy keeps putting out poorly received shows and the fans get blamed for that and called Toxic for saying this show is bad. Is there a portion of Toxic fans, yes, but surprisingly when a show is good they aren't a problem

[@MrFuzzyGreen]

Indeed there is also the inherent problem that Kathleen Kennedy has made so many open statements about not going for the Star Wars core fan base and moreover targeting at different people altogether and then is belligerent towards the core fans when they don't like the show that is no longer aimed at them. The issue for many is that Star Wars currently largely labours under messaging in favour of good script writing and the success of the Mandalorian was because the showrunner Jon Favreau is an old school fan and understands what the fans have been enjoying all along: Fantasy action in space aimed at 13 year old boys with a twist of Kurasawa.

[@Superdelphinus]

⁠@@MrFuzzyGreenso,basically we just to have the same regurgitated stories and themes designed for 13 year olds or people,lose their minds. What was the “messaging” in the acolyte that offended people so much?

[@martincurrie6243]

No, people were negatively reviewing andor before it came out and shitting on it on the First couple of episodes. Fan opinion was different and the grief merchants.shut up. Though a few said they found Andor boring and not star wars. I loved it. But not enough pew pew and light sabres for some.

[@tana1234]

@martincurrie6243 yes and when it watched in its totality it changed a lot of people's views and people are allowed to change them.

[@GothamClive]

Star Wars "fans" are toxic. They are famous for that. Ask around which is the most toxic fandom and you will always get the same answer.

[@richardstreet7605]

Marina demonstrated exactly what pissed off StarWars fans. StarWars was ALWAYS diverse for a sci-fi action series. Leia was kickass and it is her that saves Luke and Han one the death star. The fans were NEVER misogynistic, homophobic, right wing fascists. It’s sci-fi where the obvious space Nazis are defeated by the plucky space-hippies with the help of a gay robot and the ghost of someone called ObiWan. Disney decided to give the series to someone who set out to claim the audience were awful because they were mostly middle aged white men and the set out lecture them on progressive values in an obvious and condescending manner. The Disney execs claimed this was a deliberate effort to broaden the fan base. How did that work out? Did they manage to create a legion of new fans? No they just annoyed the loyal fans with crap story lines that are inconsistent with the existing lore. Blaming the core fans for your crap content is pathetic and what has caused the backlash. No one cares if ObiWan is gay. (It was a kids film and the characters sexuality was not a big issue.) No. They care if lightsabers can suddenly become whips, ships burn in space (which famously is a vacuum), you make the Jedi the bad guys and the Sith the good guys. (Remember that the Sith are space Nazis.) Since when does Marina think it is toxic to be against space Nazis? I’m sure she doesn’t. She just assumes she the Disney version of event is correct. Had Disney written kickass content with gay or female leads I am sure all the fans would have been delighted.

[@PrivateVoid1]

I do wish people would stop blaming fans for the failure of the Acolyte. As a massive Star Wars fan myself all I wanted was a well written story, believable characters and respect for the SW universe. The Acolyte gave me none of this. And yes, I do realise that in 2024 making these rather mild remarks will mark me as toxic (and worse) for the crime of not loving this show.

[@joeharding5881]

Blaming fans is honestly pathetic. Acolyte was really bad…on soo many levels.

[@MrFuzzyGreen]

​@TVCyband whilst the toxic fans are always going to be toxic this was one of those occasions where the toxic fans and historic fans ended up agreeing.

[@joeharding5881]

⁠@TVCyb that’s kind of a tautology then. I don’t believe there are legions upon legions of toxic fans with the power to take on **Disney** and have a show cancelled. If it’s a good show, people tune in. It wasn’t and they didn’t.

[@boing615]

@TVCyb You know 'toxic fans' can't stop people turning on the TV don't you? they can't keep viewers away from the show. If word of mouth was good this show would have taken off, it wasn't and it didn't.

[@boing615]

@TVCyb How? if you're interested in a show, just watch it, KZbinrs aren't standing in front of your screen. If the show was genuinely good then word of mouth would have spread and hooked people into the show, just like Andor.

[@boing615]

​@TVCyb For every critic there were channels promoting the show, I'd argue the Disney funded 'influencers' promoting it out numbered its critics. Fact is, people watched it and didn't like it just like so many other Star wars/Star Trek/MCU shows these days, viewers are walking away in droves because they don't like them.

[@theknightofdoom260]

It was a bad show...Fallout was great no one moaned because it stuck to the original lore and was written well..The Acolyte was just really shit.

[@dwinterx]

100%, I loved most of the Fallout games and played them over many years. I was a bit apprehensive watching the show, but they really nailed it. The Acolyte though, oh dear ....

[@stevenlannister184]

It was a bad show. And the Star Wars fanbase is shit

[@SupersonicMan10000]

@@stevenlannister184 any fanbase has toxic people.

[@phueal]

Did Fallout have a non-binary lead? (I'm asking seriously, I don't watch/play Fallout)

[@theknightofdoom260]

@@phueal no none of that rubbish.

[@RyanJacobs496]

Did Marina actually watch all of the The Acolyte? Richard said he hadn’t. It was a poorly written show with terrible characters.

[@shondellsb604]

But it wasn't though. Please explain what you mean because I watched it and it all made sense and was an intriguing story.

[@markmawer]

@TVCyb I would have been very happy to hear it. "Toxic fans did it, let's move on" was a cop out.

[@relayer27]

Always confuses me that if someone doesn't like a show and gives it a low mark then it's review bombing but when some bot or corporate shill gives a 5/5 with no review then it's not. These things work both ways. The fact is that the acolyte was garbage and no one watched it so they cancelled it before they wasted another 180 mill on it

[@joepiekl]

​@@relayer27 Review bombing isn't just people disliking a show and reviewing it accordingly, it's often reviewing it before it's even aired. Downvoting trailers because they disagree with casting choices, or have heard something about the story that they don't approve of. It's like the old fashioned blasphemy protests, where people protest something they've not actually seen based on how someone else has told them they should feel about it. I'm sure there's plenty of legitimate criticism, but let's not pretend it's not mixed in with a load of people who had already decided what they thought long before they watched it (if they even did).

[@SupersonicMan10000]

@@shondellsb604 the show was a mess. The Jedi were totally justified in their actions. I had no sympathy for Osha/Mae (I had for Osha in the beginning), Amandla's acting was poor (she was good at crying). The deaths of Torbin does not make sense, suicide is not the Jedi way, and Sol's saying it was ok to an action that drove Osha to the dark side also did not make sense. If Qimir is actually Sith (Leslye in an interview said he was), he acted totally recklessly, as the Sith's greatest strength was to remain hidden as they planned their revenge. The one thing that they did right was the Jedi covering things up for political reasons, which plays into the idea that even the Jedi are afraid to lose power. I also liked the characters and performances of Sol and Jecki. Then there is the production values, the show looked like a really good fan film (I will give credit to the space chase scene). The House of the Dragon should be at the minimum, what they should be striving for. The House of the Dragon was made for less money, amazing writing, episodes that were twice as long, incredible acting performances, and was epic and cinematic.

[@Ulleskelf]

The zoomed-in cut at 21:22 to Richard saying "OK" to the fact that Pronbub do audio descriptions is a genius edit *applause*

[@sjpd3352]

The editor knew exactly what to do

[@lakrids-pibe]

"Pornhub Cares" does indeed exist

[@simonelliott9519]

The best description for the Acolyte is bad fan fiction. I would say the only review bombing was positive for the access media before it was released.

[@nathangriffiths6218]

The writing for the Acoloyte makes Fifty Shades of Grey look like The Usual Suspects.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

A lot of reviewers are afraid to say anything critical about Disney for fear that they’ll be blackballed. I get it, tbh. If you’re an entertainment reporter & Disney decides to cut you off that could be a career ender. It’s still a little cowardly but if this is what you do to keep the lights on I can at least understand why you might fluff up your reviews a little. The Acolyte’s numbers viewership numbers were terrible. And this was a HUGELY expensive production.

[@simonreah34]

The last Jedi was ok!!!??? It was bloody awful!!

[@magenpie_4009]

I'm a huge fan of TRIE, a woman of-a-certain-age and a huge Star Wars fan. While I agree the SW fandom has been toxic in it's opinions, in this case the vitriol is entirely justified. The Acolyte is terrible due to dreadful writing, poor production and awful acting. 'Ahsoka' - a series I was so looking forward to - suffered from the same problems. The diverse cast is not the issue. I'm getting quite cross with development companies huffily throwing around the word 'bigoted' and 'toxic' because audiences have the temerity to point out and dislike bad productions, particularly when they cost astronomical sums of money. The Acolyte is BAD. See also 'Rings of Power.'

[@GothamClive]

By modern standards, the original trilogy had dreadful writing, poor production and awful acting. Nobody is a Star wars fan because of great writing and acting. It never had that. Lightsabres, action, a pinch of humour and cute aliens/droids makes Star wars star Wars.

[@PeterDebreceni]

Vitriol means death threats and vile insults, not “pointed criticism”. It not justified not at all.

[@magenpie_4009]

@@PeterDebreceni Death threats are utterly unacceptable. Most criticism of the programme didn't involve that behaviour. If the series had done well in terms of numbers, they would have ignored the toxic few. They cancelled it because nobody watched it.

[@magenpie_4009]

@@GothamClive The originals were of course 'B' movie rompy space opera, but there is (clearly) a place for that. The franchise then buckled under it's own success and pomposity. Personally, after the prequels, I hoped it would die a graceful death. But The Clone Wars was so good, had a great narrative, established Ahsoka as new but now much loved character, astonishingly rescued the character of Anakin and made him interesting and likeable, and all this despite everyone knowing the outcome. It had the right mix of fun and darkness, and was a family series. I have no idea why Disney and it's show creators decided on the tone of the new live action offerings (I suspect they wanted to replicate the MCU model and success). I'm also not sure why people are so keen to defend such poor entertainment. The first two seasons of The Mandalorian were great. Apart from Andor, the rest have been disappointing to awful. I would LOVE a Star Wars series with a great plot and a fanastic female lead (I don't care who the actor is as long as they are good) The Acolyte, sadly, is not it.

[@tayporttony]

@@magenpie_4009nailed it. Apart from Mando and Rogue 1, there’s been not much fun. Obi Wan, Boba Fett and the Acolyte have been the absolute nadir, stupid shows which don’t just ask for a suspension of disbelief, but a suspension of all cerebral activity.

[@TrueDemonLordRimuruTempest]

1:23 it wasn’t review bombed, it was simply a bad show deserving of bad reviews. Andor wasn’t ’review bombed’ because it was actually a good show. A show being called as having been ‘review bombed’ is simply PR speak for promoters of content to say they made a bad show and they disagree with the negative reviews. If they really don’t like negative reviews perhaps they should actually make a good show that makes sense. Arcane season 2 will be released soon and that’s not gonna be ‘review bombed’, despite it having a far more diverse cast and subject matter - because it’s simply amazing storytelling. The fact that riot have chosen to only have 2 seasons of arcane is a testament to their desire for great storytelling and to not extend the story beyond its shelf life - to then tell stories about other characters in their universe.

[@mezzer34]

Good guy Riot. Now they just need to learn some restraint with regards to adding new champs to their games.

[@TrueDemonLordRimuruTempest]

@@mezzer34 3 more champs to be added next year

[@mezzer34]

@@TrueDemonLordRimuruTempest lol, they can't even balance the 10000 they already have, most of which aren't currently played. I wish they'd at least retire a few of the lower pickrate champs so we can focus on balancing shit

[@cmcculloch1]

I have seen a LOT of negative Acolyte reviews - mostly from non professional critics and the only positive have been from , for lack of a better term 'professional shills' . Even positive ratings with reviews that read as negative..?! Or people from the groups where this vitriolic hatred was allegedly directed. So arguably I'd suggest they are 'standing with the group' instead of just giving been honest about the show. Everyone of those negative reviews I have seen was directed at the story writing, script or gaping plot holes.... not suggesting horrible reviews dont exist but I have not seen 1. Kelly Marie Tran has said it was the media not the fans that caused her soo much upset - you are grossly misrepresenting the backlash for something it isnt which is prejudice, in stead of acknowledging that the show was terrible on every metric and especially to Star Wars fans where the lore matters and was been disregarded and rewritten!

[@drewburdett7886]

I like your writing a lot, Marina, but that was a lazy explanation for the failure of The Acolyte.

[@TheNazradin]

it wasn't review bombed. It was so bad that many people felt compelled to leave an honest review.

[@tana1234]

@TheNazradin it definitely was review bombed, but the underlying cause of that is a terrible product

[@MrFuzzyGreen]

​@TVCyband then after it came out the casual fans and non-toxic fans also responded with both apathy and displeasure. There was no post-toxic review up-tick was there. Could you perhaps extrapolate why that might be?

[@Ryanblairfolk]

I watched the entire thing and it was so good. I was excited for a second series. It was 100% review bombed.

[@tana1234]

@Ryanblairfolk It didn't get cancelled because it was review bombed though, it got cancelled because it was bad and no one watched it

[@Ryanblairfolk]

@@tana1234 And no one watched it because people review bombed it and didn't give it a chance.

[@floaty10]

What a lazy explanation. Here we go again: The fandom is a vocal minority, the fandom has too much influence. Wish these people would make their minds up. It was a poor show that no one watched. End of.

[@dwinterx]

@TVCyb Yes absolutely, but no one would listen to them for even a second if the show had been actually good!

[@tayporttony]

@TVCybReally. They are all just gullible feckwits unlike you and your superior intelligence? We might want to deconstruct that though just a wee bit though, because the Acolyte was even dumber than Boba Fett, which is quite some achievement. So you seem to be saying that the person who lapped up one of the stupidest plots seen outside ‘Sharknado’, with the dumbest characters outside a Jim Carey film, is the genius, and the people who found it offensively, egregiously stupid are the dumb ones who are easily lead?

[@tayporttony]

@TVCyb oh dear, who said anything about you being paid, silly little troll boy? I really don’t have the time to have to explain to you the difference between ‘stated’ and ‘implicit’, but the sort of person who didn’t like the Acolyte would understand, especially had they been given a clue by a word like ‘deconstruct’. I doubt you even watched the programme, but if you did, you clearly failed to notice how startlingly dumb every character, decision and plot-point were, which, not coincidentally, applied to pretty much every choice made by the production team.

[@virtualal]

That is typical Guardian left wing journalism. Lets not look at the facts - just blame “wrong thinking” fans

[@slapshot0074]

Paying customers owe corporations absolutely nothing. These companies are businesses and are not entitled to support and adoration. If they make something the public likes,great,if they don't then you have to suck it up. Blaming your customers is NEVER going to be a good long term strategy. Funny how if they praise a show they are correct but if they dislike a show they are toxic.

[@TheDrisk]

So lazy journalism to call Acolyte review bombed. It was a terribly written show, with massive plot holes,plot conviniences and a terrible story arc. The audience who don't have to worry about Disney access as the critic outlets do were right to criticise it. Richard please watch, as I think as also a writer you would be more objective on good story writing, would love to hear you thoughts upon it.

[@CallumFinlayson]

Comments section is 10x as passionate about 4 minutes of SW as about filming game shows, reading bedtime stories, paying touring bands, recording audio descriptions, and celebrity travel shows put together!

[@SpectorCorp]

Star Wars is in decline? No they aren't giving the core audience what they want. Even the younger fans want more of the old

[@dibdab101]

Star Wars has been in decline since The Empire Strikes Back`s end credits finished rolling.

[@SpectorCorp]

@@dibdab101 swing and a miss

[@JamesMcQueen74]

Yup - there is a spike in interest for the prequels right now, my daughter loves them and the OT, she doesn’t and won’t have anything to do with Disney Star Wars.

[@snakeplissken6649]

The fans didn't "absolutely go for Kelly Marie Tran" the critics did. The writers gave her a badly written character & dressed her up like she was wearing a potato sack. When you see her in proper clothes she's quite attractive, but no Disney being Disney had to uglify her. Disney/Lucasfilm had the chance to write her a great story just like they did for John Boyega but they chose to sideline the characters because they were trying to sell the movies in China & since the Chinese are notoriously racist they diminished the characters. Finn went from being Rey's potential love interest & Jedi apprentice to a garbage worker on Starkiller Base doing notheing more than running around shouting "REY" by the final film. The fans didn't fuck over John & Kelly, Disney/Lucasfilm did.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

I don’t know why they decided to make Kelly Marie Tran look so frumpy & shapeless. She’s a lovely young woman.

[@matthewyates1719]

People scoring low for a show is the only way for the public to get their say as most people don't sit on the board on Disney

[@kesselfell]

I wonder how many of us asked questions around The Acolyte? A lot of the actors were fantastic but the art of story telling and directing was seriously lacking. When you compare to the cost, story quality, character development and reception for Andor, you know that there was something wrong with the creation and management of The Acolyte. The main question for me, how did The Acolyte cost a staggering $671,000 per minute?

[@JohnnyRingo-c5v]

Serious , too much left wing politics in the show

[@chrisstevenson-kuylaars7684]

If something is rubbish, calling that out for artistic reasons is not toxic.

[@AWSgraphics]

Perhaps. Now this might be controversial? But why don't they make star wars content for the star wars fans? And not for non star wars fans? Why not. Choose directors because they are good. Or because they are known for doing great sci-fi content. And not people who don't know anything about starwars? Perhaps. Instead of forcing female characters for the sake of it. Just have good characters? With clever stories? Maybe that's what the issue is? Drop all the politics. Drop all the jedi can't do this or that. And just make a movie with with light saber and Lazer gun fights. Droids and space ships. That's what we want. But Disney keep trying to ram stuff down our throat that doesn't interest us.

[@shondellsb604]

Which of the female characters in The Acolyte felt 'forced' to you?

[@boing615]

@@iamamyb Have you watched any Star Wars? you know Princess Leia was a woman don't you? she was adored and the movies she was in were adored and the actress who played her adored, stop pretending this is about misogyny when it's clearly not.

[@AlexPowerish]

Sorry Marina - as an old woke lefty, I didn’t like The Acolyte because it was terrible. It was as bad as The Book of Boba Fett, which I really, really looked forward to and wanted to work. The story behind both was just awful. There may well be some elements in the fandom that are toxic (I don’t know) but I don’t think that’s the main reason this show got bad reviews.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

Same here, mate.

[@jameshoward-white2288]

Andor has a diverse cast of characters and hasn't received any hate. There is a vocal minority of toxic fans, but the majority of movies and shows have been bad. Very bad!

[@someonespc6564]

andor received huge amounts of hate before it aired and during the first few episodes. star wars "influencers" just changed their tune later because their usual shtick wasn't working

[@stevecochrane5376]

Wow, the comments her are pretty tough on Marina. Friends.. Marina is giving you all her honest opinion. That's why we all love her so much.

[@iieee85]

The philanthropic arm? Is that their new merch? - Another of Richards jokes that went over Marina's head. 😂

[@magenpie_4009]

Hello again - I came back to say that on your recommendation we've started watching 'Freddie Flintoff's Field of Dreams'. After making some initial cynical remarks in the first five minutes, I've hardly stopped crying since (we're about half way through S01E02.) My heart. I'm also getting a much needed refresher on the rules because I lost That Tea Towel many years ago. Really really lovely series. Thank you so much.

[@gameXylinder]

This is a bit off topic but I like your clothes and how it sort of matches the podcast colours. Richard with the blue and Marina with the red/gold, while both jackets are darker than the podcast blue and red I still found it pleasing!

[@Papa_NutRoach]

The Acolyte was awful, what is review bombed ? is that when people dont like something and complain ? Why would anyone review bomb if they liked it ? im confused can someone help explain this to me ? Also it doesnt seem like the lady has even watched the Acolyte or wasnt even a fan herself

[@SkoolyAd]

Review bombing is not just people submitting a bad review: it's when people review a show negatively before it has even aired - or people who set up multiple accounts to review a show negatively. It definitely happened to The Acolyte and it definitely will have had some impact.

[@someonespc6564]

it was review bombed because it had gotten huge amounts of negative audience reviews before it had even aired. the fact that it ended up deserving negative criticism is independent of that initial wave of reviews from people that had not watched it

[@jeremybiggs8413]

Waiter: Sir, your dinner is served. Excrement a la flambé. Customer: this isn’t what I ordered. Waiter: bigot.

[@shondellsb604]

What is it when a show hasn't even come out and people are moaning about the cast and creators? And slagging off the show without having seen a single second of it?

[@dwinterx]

@@shondellsb604 It probably doesn't help when some of the cast and the showrunners give such hot takes in interviews. I don't agree that it deserved as much hate as it got, but it was just very poor. But set out to wind up your target audience before the show even airs, well what would you expect ...

[@killthomas8373]

You didn't order anything tho you're at an all you can eat buffet and can wait for the next dish

[@andybrice2711]

@@shondellsb604 In this analogy though. It’s a bit like if the waiter assured you that the kitchen staff are highly diverse and this is going to be _“By far the gayest meal you’ve ever had!”_ To which you might reasonably respond: _“Oh god. I really don’t care. I just want it to be good.”_

[@coinopanimator]

Can I use this in an animation? It's hilarious

[@SirPablo2Pablo]

Less than 4 mins spent on Acolyte. My view Disney need to SELL the show to potential audience, slamming fans does not help. I watch the first episode and did not enjoy it. Loved Mandalorian and disagree that Star Wars is dying.

[@Neddoest]

Joe Lycett is my spirit animal.

[@pleebianmusk]

“The Last Jedi was quite good” oh Marina…

[@tana1234]

@pleebianmusk it's funny how most of the critics were supportive of The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker, the fans didn't agree at all

[@tana1234]

@TVCyb I don't know who geeks and gamers is, and people are allowed to change opinions on things, sometimes your immediate reactions aren't the right ones and after more thought you change your opinion

[@matthewwarner2305]

I'm a massive star wars fan and The Last Jedi is my favourite star wars film since Rogue One. It wasn't perfect but I loved how it portrayed Luke's journey and end, and the message it was setting up (before ep IX ruined it)

[@tana1234]

@matthewwarner2305 it's a terrible movie and watching Luke drink blue Milk out of a sea cows udder shows how truly dire the film was

[@matthewwarner2305]

@@tana1234 your particular issues with it don't make it a bad movie.

[@gcrosheffielduk]

It was terribly written, it was terribly acted and it committed the cardinal sin of retconning the canon history of Star Wars. Essentially, nobody watched it.

[@johnsimpson8893]

If the fans are toxic, why were they happy with Andor?

[@johnsimpson8893]

​@TVCyb You have me completely confused. "One of the grifters..." Someone did not like it, so what? "the majority on both sides..." What sides? You start with they weren't happy with Andor, then "Both sides... liked the show". So which is it? This might help: Rotten tomatoes score Acolyte 18%, Andor 78% (for example).

[@PaulMcCaffreyfmac]

Saw the original Star Wars in the cinema when it was released. It was at the Odeon in Westbourne Grove on a Saturday afternoon and the enormous space was filled, apart from my girlfriend and me, with kids. It was absolute mayhem with sweets and all sorts flying through the air and general hooting and hollering and joy all round. It was memorable to say the least. It could easily have been that afternoon that started the weakening of the structural integrity of the building which led to the cinema's closing a few years later in the early '80s. It was certainly the last time I had any interest in Star Wars. The Empire Strikes Back could never have matched The Odeon goes bonkers.

[@PaulMelia]

It's pretty simple, it's a shite show.

[@unaontour]

One night many years ago i switched on a TV show which was doing audio description and i honestly thought i was having a psychotic break before i realised that there wasn't a voice in my head narrating what was going on on the screen.

[@user-tg6vq1kn6v]

Made for a “modern audience” and even they didn’t watch it 😂

[@PaulC_DH616]

Surely making a show that the fans don't like is not the fans fault? And when fans en masse decide to review a show positively no one says anything, but as soon as they do so negatively its 'review bombing' and is portrayed as unjustified.

[@fredgarvinism]

If you market your show by telling me that if I do not like it I am a misogynist I am going to skip your show. The acolyte was a horribly written show and I gave up after episode three like most people did from what the ratings say. If they write a good story people will watch it no matter whop the protagonist is.

[@andrewcoy1766]

The Acolyte was poor, try watching it. The story was boring, the writing was poor, it could and should have been much better regardless of the money spent on it. The fans are unhappy with poor stories, and the destruction of the universe by people who don’t seem to care. The obi wan series was the same.

[@charlesw852]

Undoubtedly Dave’s daughter did a fantastic job, but even that could not save a show as truly terrible as the Acolyte. What on Earth did they do with all the money spent on it?! I would also add that the marketing was all rather toxic, and it is a bit rich of them to all cry foul when they receive a visceral response. As to the discrepancy between the critics’ and audience scores, I think I know which I would question as being distorted (not the audience).

[@55tranquility]

It was a terrible show. Period. You can't pull an identity politics card to defend a terrible product you're making assumptions about people and basically slandering for simply not liking a television show! That's awful. People are allowed to choose what they do and don't like.

[@mrk5534]

Oh Marina. Remember when you were cool? Babe, the acolyte wasn't review bombed for being diverse. It was badly received for being utterly awful. Like lots (but not all) of Star Wars.

[@Justinian-IV]

@TVCyb "How dare you disagree with a woman!" Just grow up, you are making yourself look more stupid than you actually are, somehow.

[@MikeMJPMUNCH]

Seriously where did the money for The Acolyte go? Granted I haven't watch the whole show but from the clips I've seen it didn't look like it cost 22 million per episode.

[@EveryoneWhoUsesThisTV]

Star Wars fans have reacted well to recent and diverse shows like Andor. I think fans get upset when critics get all lovey about the bad shows. They react badly to major lore changes, bad writing, corporate messaging and unrealistic looking sword fights. Avoid those and they'll lap up your content and they'll buy your toys and keep them in the packaging. :)

[@hoos3014]

Fans didn't really watch Andor either, so I'm not really buying that.

[@EveryoneWhoUsesThisTV]

@@hoos3014 Andor is pretty good, I have no idea why you think fans didn't watch it, or why you don't buy the obvious truth.... Is your theory that people were down on Acolyte because they hate activists? I could buy that... Is your theory that people were down on Acolyte because of lesbians? Because lesbian videos are very popular! :D

[@hoos3014]

@@EveryoneWhoUsesThisTV I know fans didn't watch Andor because it had the second lowest US television ratings of the Disney Star Wars series. Yes, normally lesbian space witches would be good for business but these had too many clothes on 😆

[@EveryoneWhoUsesThisTV]

@@hoos3014 Well I didn't watch Andor on Disney and don't know anyone who did. But I've seen it twice. :) All my friends are Star Wars fans and have watched them both, so I'm not sure how ratings relate to popularity these days... :) The director and star of Acolyte were both behaving like activists while the show was on, which was bound to annoy people. But I think people noticed how bad the writing was before that.

[@hoos3014]

@@EveryoneWhoUsesThisTV A certain segment of the fandom, especially here on KZbin, was primed to hate this show from the moment the cast list was announced. A prominent "critic" literally counted the number of white male children that were in a classroom scene in the trailer, as if that were some measure of the show's quality. The show was not likely to succeed in the face of that type of opposition.

[@papamurrth1]

Wasn't quite review bombing. It was overhyped by critics and they were selective. It was not a good show.

[@bobfunk5055]

Disney went wrong with Star Wars.

[@tana1234]

@TVCyb Sure it's right wing grifters that wrote the Disney Star Wars rubbish. Disney have been putting out crap and get crap back

[@Justinian-IV]

@TVCyb Christ you are insufferable. Pipe down you are giving us on the left a bad name.

[@tayporttony]

@TVCybSo, all the subscribers to Disney+ are ‘right wing grifters’ are they? Still, I wholeheartedly admire your refusal to accept that other people are simply not stupid enough to watch rubbish shows which insult their intelligence. And I’m glad you’re at peace with yourself.

[@Stringer13ell]

​@TVCybnope you're wrong about that communist

[@Stringer13ell]

​​@TVCybwry comment: I don't think speaking like HK-47 by prefacing queries with 'Serious question' will convince people that you're not computer programming.

[@no_one_of_that_name_here]

Star Wars first turned on the fandom.

[@tayporttony]

@TVCybI’m glad you think you’re normal.

[@charlesw852]

Interesting how Richard put on a working class voice when portraying an ‘idiot’ complaining to the BBC. Very interesting. 🧐

[@JackSmith-gv5yw]

The Acolyte is an example of what happens when you let activists make Star Wars content for Disney. It is as if Andor and the Acolyte came from two different franchise. Andor was a brilliant piece of work, and yes, it had an ethnically diverse cast, but it also had a great script, story and camera work. The Acolyte was just terrible.

[@beatlefan247]

did that lady really say that the last Jedi was good and starwars fans are just toxic? big oof

[@AppByDesign]

I hardly ever watch tv and the only films ive been to see at the Cinema are with my kids but for some reason I'm addicted to this podcast.

[@SupersonicMan10000]

Regardless of any prejudgment, the Acolyte was a mess in story telling, and plain stupid. They also spent $180 million, when you compare it to the House of Dragon, which cost less, twice as long per episode, amazing story telling, and was epic and cinematic. It is unfortunate because the show introduced two great characters, not to mention well acted, of Sol and Jecki. I wish they did have a season 2. There is so much potential and also an opportunity to fix the first season, but definitely bring in a new creative crew. Ultimately, this was so bad that Kathleen Kennedy has to be made accountable.

[@hjt2236]

Marina giving it deep deconstruction and Richard picking a thoughtful friends book and I'm over here instantly knowing I'd want to read out FunnyBones.

[@hanskneesun123]

I actually enjoyed The Force Awakens. There was a tonne of setup and unanswered questions, which I thought might be resolved in the next movies. However, what followed was a tug of war between two directors, a bloated cast with nothing to do, and no clear roadmap. I'm not blaming the actors, they did their best with what they were given, but the lack of direction, continuity, and character assassination of the original trilogy's cast seemed like a calculated attempt to annoy the fans.

[@terry9819]

This is not review bombing, the only acurate review you can get these days is from fans. At this point critic reviews are pointless as the critics are too close to the studios. Amazon owns imdb, but the fans are the problem apparently.

[@robbieshand6139]

I loved Total Wipeout. That show was pure joy.

[@GreyHulk2156]

I’m a Star Wars fan. I liked The Last Jedi, but Rise Of Skywalker was TERRIBLE. The Acolyte made no sense. I have no problem with any of the actors or acting (mostly) but the story contradicts things in the Star Wars “universe” just because they can, and even contradicts itself every other episode. It’s as if the writers of certain episodes weren’t told what happened in the other episodes!

[@gameXylinder]

'Friend of the show, Lauren Sanchez', especially said with that grin, made me laugh out loud. I love it! xD

[@davidratcliffe5000]

I used to love Total Wipeout. Great days. Speaking of nostalgia... I'm an old-school Star Wars fan and I quite liked The Acolyte. It had a whole chunk of faults, but that doesn't make it awful. I do think there was an exaggerated negative response from some areas of the internet which can drown out any positive chatter about the show - and there was plenty, by the way. But! yes, it did need to be a bit better to get the money coming in for Disney. I just hope they pick up some of the threads elsewhere for those of us who did get something from it.

[@jimmyers8795]

AS this podcast is created and produced by Goalhanger, why is the sky logo sitting in the top left hand corner of the picture. I don't mind it being there, i just wondered :)

[@Snapjockey]

Love the complacent condescending ignorance of your Acolyte analysis. Go watch a few episodes - it's terrible! I breaks with Star Wars lore...but really its just badly written and acted.

[@shondellsb604]

This again, boring - the show never broke Star Wars lore. Show your workings if you believe it did...

[@robertvincent7385]

To be honest the Star Wars fandom may be bad but both the last Jedi and the acolyte are terribly written there’s lack of stakes and in terms of the acolyte the dialogue is awful. The acting wasn’t too bad but the overall scripting was atrocious I think critics may have been scared to go in on it properly the 18% audience score is about right.

[@daruddock]

Between this and the Mister Beast commentary I have to say that you guys are showing your out-of-touch-ness, but everything else is, as always, wonderfully insightful.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

If you’re not into genre TV/movies and you’re not especially engaged with a particular franchise & it’s fandom you shouldn’t be venturing opinions. I don’t have a problem with Richard, btw, but Marina has a lot of very strong opinions about subjects she clearly knows very little about.

[@TheMegaMusicProject]

On a recent The Rest Is Politics, Rory Stewart mentioned that when he was Foreign Secretary items would be stolen from hospitals. Later those items would be bought back with foreign aid money. And in regard to Star Wars, it's the downside of incrementalism, taking a story that was great and memorable into smaller and smaller advances in the overall story. The same thing happened with Star Trek, which now has over 700 episodes across all the series.

[@artistBAWayne]

I think the problem is we old SW fans want a SW story but w’ere old and dieting out. They wanted to aim it at a new audience, like Dr Who, and compared to the SW films we were upset because it broken cannon and we thought it was poorly made. But it’s tv and not a big budget film. Also we were kids when we watched it and saw it with kids eyes and we now romanticise it. So basically SW is no longer made for me but a new generation, a new audience.

[@tayporttony]

We all get that, but it was rubbish. Just really, really bad. It alienated the old audience and didn’t attract a new one. So, a disaster on both counts and a very expensive one at that

[@JohnBirtchetSharpe]

You both , should watch the series and come back with what you think of the show before discussing the quality of the now cancelled offering from Disney and the current critique integrity. Personally I would rather watch a great brittish show like Supercell or Brassic. Bedtime stories iwas/is brilliant as you say.

[@JohnBirtchetSharpe]

@TVCyb , pretty much sums up my thoughts too .. at the end of the day it's just a show. while I did not think the script was great .. when I was a kid I actually watched buck rodgers in the 25th century ..some of that TV of the 70's .. love boat, heart to heart 🤣. Sadly I think there are over emotive people on all sides of this thing . Glad I do not associate entertainment with living day to day. Have a good one 🤟

[@Elwaves2925]

@TVCyb I definitely didn't 'hate' it but calling it okay would be a little too complimentary for me. It was just below average across the board for me, several interesting ideas that could have made their own show (in the right hands) but they failed to explore any of it beyond puddle depth. The script wasn't great, the twist moments lacked any impact and some of the acting was bland to absolutely poor IMO. The main thing I felt after all of it was disappointed.

[@ChrisH78]

Stars War fans have to accept some culpability for this. They seem unwilling to accept any Stars War content that doesn't feature or relate towards the original trilogy. The original trilogy itself is a limiting factor too because it basically revolves around the force which means it has to be about the jedi or the sith. That's a very constricting set of rules. Fan service is a stain upon these IPs. The studio just needs to write an original story that just so happens to be in the Stars War universe and forget about Luke, Han, Darth This-and-That.

[@gtc9966]

At what point do bad reviews, become ‘review-bombing’ Is there some threshold you have to reach?!

[@someonespc6564]

the acolyte had been getting negative audience reviews before it had aired. that constitutes review bombing regardless of whatever reception it deserved after it aired

[@JohnDoe-tp8mc]

Would love to hear your thoughts on Beetlejuice 2. Such a long time between movies, such a variation of cast and yet they absolutely aced it. Amazing film.

[@rickyturner223]

I really enjoy the podcast and the fact that Richard and marina are in the business is great for giving us insights we wouldn't usually get but it's a double edge sword with this star wars answer. I feel they are too close to the creatives to give a real answer. The fact is star wars was bought by Disney and in the 1st movie they hid Luke and killed off Han robbing us from seeing the han,chewie, Luke and Laya on screen together ever again. The fact that they commissioned a trilogy and didn't create an over arching story line was madness and they handed the reins to a writer director who ruined all the set ups from the 1st movie and then killed off Luke in the 2nd movie which wasn't ok it was god awful. That's not to mention that the new characters were either, boring, 1 dimensional, over powered, did stupid things or were wasted. (I.e. finn a black stormtrooper who revolted against the empire and ran away to do absolutely nothing or captain Fazma a strong female leader in the imperial army who did nothing and then fell down a hole) Then came all the DEI stuff but people were still rightfully realing from the fact our favourite movie franchise had been ruined by miss management and poor writing we were told we were toxic and this wasn't made for you. So fine the straight white males who were told this wasn't for you, stopped watching, same as Dr who. And that's fine it's not for us anymore, but the problem is the audience they wanted to attract isn't interested in marvel movies or star wars or Dr who. Women packed the cinema for Barbie but can't be bothered to turn the BBC on, on a Saturday night. No they aren't interested in Dr Who that's why. So now, no one is watching and we are just left on the side lines watching TV shows and movies that once were made for us dieing needlessly. It was a great experiment, you didn't want my time or money and eventually Disney's time and money will run out.

[@TommyDaniels-zt8zy]

I've never seen any Star Wars film and I don't think I've missed out on anything.

[@rae-el-gee]

23:52 audio description comes on automatically for us, we have to choose not to have it for every single program

[@brianclear363]

i barely made it though half of episode one of the acolyte before I fell asleep.

[@someonespc6564]

if you can't sit through 15 mins of mediocre television without falling asleep you need to get a sleep study done

[@brianclear363]

@@someonespc6564 no they need to stop making shit tv :)

[@Caspian237]

In business it is sometimes necessary to appeal to a new audience so you can continue into the future. Here's the thing though: if you're going to burn bridges with legacy fans you better damn well make sure that your new target audience actually exists.

[@cybergornstartrooper2157]

Probably just me but I find the sign zone annoying. It wouldn’t be too bad if you could switch off the person waving their arms around, but you can’t and I’ve often found the none sign zone version isn’t even available on Iplayer. How does that work?

[@ekhoyt]

3:49 I gave up on the Star Wars novels when I read them as a kid when chewbacca died saving one of Han and Leia’s kids. I thought I don’t need to see my beloved characters like Han and Leia go through érectile dysfunction or menopause.

[@hc1883]

John Campea, Grace Randolph, Jeremy Jahns, Kristian Harloff are just a few "main stream" & more well known youtubers who talk about the entertainment industry for years on this site & also have liked and backed a lot of Star Wars projects under Disney over the last decade and all either hated The Acolyte or didn't think it deserved a second season. I wouldn't classify those specific content creators on youtube as "dude bros" who helped turn the Star Wars fan base against this show. The Acolyte was just a bad show, period.

[@AlphaOmegaJMAC]

Wonder how they did an audio dead for Fight Club…since Edward Nortons name isn’t revealed for well over 90 mins.

[@Dalamarian]

Blaming the fans and calling them toxic for speaking out about a terrible show is horrendous

[@Govanmauler]

There are one and a half good star wars movies ... everything else was pointless

[@sianstockham9244]

For a 70 second presentation for an award, they filmed for 7 hours.

[@jonasfermefors]

I'm not a huge Star Wars fan.. I've seen the movies but not much of the TV series. I can't understand how many critics can say VIII - The Last Jedi is anything but a disaster in any way except for some visuals. To me one difference between reviewers and home viewers is about understanding the universe and it's rules which often seems lacking from reviewers, but that isn't enough to explain this. Many times I can see how they see a movie as a self contained thing and judge it without relating if to other parts of a franchise.. but even if I judge The Last Jedi as a separate entity I still think it's just a horrifically bad film. On Rotten Tomatoes reviewers give The Last Jedi 91% while viewers give it 41% and I personally think its worth less but the discrepancy between the scores is fascinating to me. I cannot grasp how anyone can see that movie and think it was a good movie.

[@stevewithington1787]

Marina has had a taste removal for this episode. Normally she had great taste in movies but she seems to think The Last Jedi was good, then sticks the knife into The Rise of Skywalker when it was shackled with trying to undo much of TLJ's damage. And as commented on repeatedly here, The Acolyte was dreadful. It was not review bombed in any meaningful way (a bigger question for me is how did 18% of people like it, surely there aren't that many friends and family of showrunners and cast). 'Good' Star Wars does well. The Mandalorian, Andor etc. Disney have pumped out a lot of bad Star Wars and the chickens are coming home to roost. They have managed to get people looking back sentimentally towards the prequels, which I wouldn't have believed possible a decade ago.

[@Buckaroo_Baldwin]

If you want to see just how toxic the Star Wars fanbase can be just look at Jake Lloyd.

[@Daniel-zy8rz]

😂 the idea that all of Richard's pitches are within the parameters of a retirement home based murder mystery..