These benchmarks look terrible for React...

[@fyfaenihelvete]

we need a benchmark for benchmarks

[@sburton84]

I think the take-home lesson from this is that LLMs produce bad code and, while you might get something that works well enough if that's all you need, if you're actually writing a benchmark that's supposed to measure optimal performance, getting an LLM to generate the code is pretty stupid...

[@TheAlexLichter]

Vue on #1 in terms of SSR speed 🙌

[@naughtiousmaximus7853]

Where can I check this out?

[@brambekkers]

Vue ftw

[@tobychidi]

Thing is, Vue keep getting better.

[@justafreak15able]

Vue js always has been the best choice but people overlook it.

[@antidotes1999]

react is ok, the problem is next

[@nero1375]

just wait for Vue vapor kek

[@TheMACtutoalex]

VueJS Options is peak framework. No debate on that one.

[@rasibn]

Vue is great but I feel Sveltekit is better than Nuxt...

[@gohancomfejao]

mentioning vue is like saying voldemort in front of everyone for him

[@sahilaggarwal2004]

4:27 "They were running it in dev mode" Had me laughing too hard🤣🤣

[@armanrozika]

yeah lol, massive different between dev and prod

[@NathanStrutz]

What I learned from this is Vue is the goat 😅

[@gro967]

Vue the winner, as usual 😅

[@serhiicho]

Evan You, always makes sure to make Vue better with new versions 👏👏👏

[@xingxingforyou]

At this point, I ultimately realize and accept that Theo really overlook and ignore Vue, no matter how good Vue is. *sigh*

[@bideshbanerjee5506]

11:25

[@xingxingforyou]

@bideshbanerjee5506 dude dun worry, I watch the whole vid before dropping comment.

[@jonatthu]

@@xingxingforyou Then what's your real request, a vuejs dedicated video? That's fair but tbh he would do it already if vuejs drags enough traffic

[@xingxingforyou]

@ nah! I didn’t request anything. All I do just want to express my thought on it. I don’t give a damm thing if he likes vue or not, just don’t like the way he tryna ignore Vue in the game even he knows Vue also was also falsely benchmarked initially but never talk, and that’s it. And it’s not just me, let’s look at other comments. Thanks

[@Hackkit]

I like the way theo tries to ignore Vue 🤣🤣. We know Vue is better and there's nothing much to talk about. What a tragedy.

[@kabukitheater9046]

he's not reacting to vue lol

[@natedunn3933]

he has never really written vue. and... that's ok for anyone. don't need silly flame wars.

[@jatinkumar7287]

​@@natedunn3933 he's literally in this video talking about different frameworks. Doesn't the whole premise of video is about this benchmark.

[@natedunn3933]

@@jatinkumar7287 read the room and the title. 😄 he's a react developer and has dabbled in a few other things. Vue not being on of those things isn't a travesty. i get wanting Vue to get more of a shine, but you're looking in the wrong places.

[@nghiase738]

Why Vue when it just just copied from Angular/React? not innovative like Svelte & also it's such a great joy to code in Svelte.

[@birb7981]

Vue disregarded.. yet again.

[@MrYUPIYU]

Someone else feeling like he is ignoring vue? lol

[@naughtiousmaximus7853]

I think his ego just cant admit Vue is good. Like legit a good tech that you can use to build virtually anything while not having to speak vercelish.

[@bideshbanerjee5506]

11:25

[@BurgerBurglar8964]

It's literally mentioned in the video that Vue is fast

[@enzo.albornoz]

​@@BurgerBurglar8964Theo defends React with all excuses possible "oh, but look, it's'just' half of the performance" meanwhile the only comment he does about Vue is "Vue looks good". I don't dislike him for that, but I found this funny. Maybe he's too deep in the rabbit hole.

[@cIappo896]

Okay, I get the point of testing performance on a base level, but when's the last time you made a web app without client side reactivity?

[@bartek.igielski]

why tf you are always ignoring anything related to Vue? vue creator was tweeting about it nuxt core team was involved there was a PR in the benchmark repo what else needs to happen to simply cover it the same way as you cover others?

[@GawblyOG]

He's paid by vercel to ignore vue. This guy's a self centered shill who has beef with everything including libraries and even inanimate objects.

[@naughtiousmaximus7853]

Solid is similar to React and Svelte is tied to Vercel. He will never cover Vue and Angular, just because of that.

[@javierflores09]

@@naughtiousmaximus7853 I mean, we just sadly got to accept that Theo isn't some kind of tech reporter with some oath to treat each and every technology equal. If they don't have any interest in Vue, then why would they talk about it? Besides, Vue is great, don't get me wrong, but it isn't going to get any clicks since it isn't trendy anymore so the value here is little. What I can see here is just the fact that he has been more personally involved with the people behind these frameworks and that's why he likes to cover them, which is probably not the same for Vue. Nothing to do with Vercel or whatever

[@bartek.igielski]

​@@javierflores09 It's not about making content about it. It's about not deliberately ignoring it, if it's somehow related to the things Theo wants to make content about, like in this case, he entirely ignored that the initial score was wrong for Vue too.

[@javierflores09]

@@bartek.igielski "deliberately ignore" is a rather harsh assumption to make. It could just be that he didn't see the initial rebuttal tweet from the Vue people like he had seen the others, that isn't ignoring but just not being aware of it. Sure, you could argue that Theo could've gone "if React and Solid guys said this then Vue's one must have been flawed too" and go on a crusade to find the flaws on the Vue benchmark, however as I said earlier, it isn't like he is a tech reporter so he has no obligation to do that, and I certainly wouldn't if I took no interest in the framework. Vue has rebutted their place in the benchmark as it should have and now the misconception is gone for the people who have seen the corrected benchmark. I am aware it can be frustrating that an influencer you follow doesn't do coverage of the framework but truth to be told, it isn't necessary anyway, with the amount of people that have pointed their fingers towards that benchmark, it wouldn't cause a dent to Vue's reputation in any sort of way as people are already dubious of all the results

[@rafikkasmi1406]

anyone else thinks that Theo really hates Vue that much ?

[@UliTroyo]

Apparently the entire comments section, yeah

[@Dylan_thebrand_slayer_Mulveiny]

Any framework that cooks its benchmarks like this is an immediate, giant, blaring red siren for me. Sketchy as fuck. You can't blame AI for that either. Any dev worth their salt reviewing those benchmarks is going to know the difference instantly. It's intentional.

[@OldKing11100]

This is such a goofball thing to measure. I love it. I think what I really learned is that LLMs can and will lead you down the wrong path and that it's really easy to deliver poorly optimized code in Node.

[@SagasofSuccess-tk5uq]

The react base component is generating a list of react nodes without adding a key to each element forcing an entire tree swap for the component in each re-render no?

[@SagasofSuccess-tk5uq]

But thinking about it if what we are measuring here it's ssr page serving time then this detail shouldn't matter now that i think about it

[@akinaguda]

All these benchmarks but users and developers almost never see the difference

[@phpn99]

What's really quick, is the speed at which a dev gets himself egg on the face by posting a half-assed test. You guys are really tolerant ; it's nice to see, because the damage could've been real. I'm sure Matteo learned his lesson ; benchmarking is more subtle than it seems.

[@mr.mirror1213]

subtle?? Nah he used dev mode bro🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@wt4csm]

You thinbk Theo dogs on Vue? He basically pretends Angular doesn't even exist despite it having almost the same marketshare.

[@Valiant600]

My benchmark is putting food on the table...

[@losing_interest_in_everything]

*Productivity benchmark when ?*

[@digitaldevigner4080]

To be fair I feel like we overuse JavaScript today to essentially spit out pretty basic html. There are of course situations where it makes sense but most of the time we should not be generating static html. It should just be served as is already. I'm not sure when writing basic html and css became such a naughty dirty thing.

[@nwsome]

React being slower mostly comes down to creating a styles object for each div

[@ersstuff]

Would be funny if some Ruby on Rails dev contacted you that you are benchmarking wrong.

[@ekrem_qb]

Once again *react-library* showed how awful it does the work. You all look miserable defending it, just accept the reality, guys.

[@dvidsilva]

3:15 Now I'm afraid of copying arrays

[@rubendacostaesilva8442]

I'm reviewing my latest project code right now, because I know I chose to copy arrays instead of using push somewhere.

[@Cuca-hn3md]

On garbage-collected languages, there are two major performance issues with arrays: 1. Every time you create a new array, it allocates on the heap, which is costly. 2. Every time ur array is elegible to be collected, it freezes your process, throttling it. Solution: Use array pools to reuse arrays, keeping them from being garbage collected and avoiding new heap allocations.

[@diadetediotedio6918]

Why he did not used the Solid without hydration thing, was not it like 2x the speed and had the same equivalence with his templating thing?

[@pempheromkuka7874]

does theo have something against vue or its just me noticing vue was being ignored and its ignored in most videos when talking about js frameworks

[@SilasDuarte-e9k]

The same happens with Deno, the creators of Deno are obsessed with performance but seeing that even with their version 2.0 Bun continues to surpass them they prefer not to include it in their comparisons on their website. "Let's pretend that they don't exist"

[@matress-4-2323]

@SilasDuarte-e9k that's how all benchmarks are because it's good for marketing. there is a faster runtime than bun called just-js. web frameworks do the same thing. they show comparisons across different languages and intentionally leave out faster languages or faster frameworks in other languages.

[@gsgregory2022]

I think the way they handled being wrong is great. One thing though is that what the produced at first showcases the potential for letting AI write code.

[@Александр-ч4п5ъ]

This is what happens when you mess with Svelte

[@YoungReeezyy]

Love how Angular isn't even taken into consideration.

[@Sahil.1]

I think react has reached the threshold

[@notanoption1793]

Yheo WE WANT VUEEE

[@riccardoguitar]

WTF --- "We chose not to consider tools like Next.js, Astro..." - Are you saying that Astro SSR is not a real true SSR???

[@GilbertoAlbino]

That's why I NEVER follow benchmarks and do them myself.

[@しめい-l4m]

"React in SSR" already looks weird.

[@silent21shredz]

Anyone else still suspicious of the results even after they were "fixed"? If all the first examples were AI generated and the person benchmarking them isn't actually equipped to write basic examples within the various frameworks why should we trust their framework is actually fastest, there can be plenty of other minor things destroying the performance of the others. Not just the most obvious dev mode vs prod mode, furthermore in the fixed svelte 5 example it was faster, but in the final benchmark fastify is once again fastest so what changes were made to the fixed svelte 5 example to make it slower or what improvements did they make to fastify to get the additional performance gains and if so why weren't those gains in the original example coming from the framework author themselves? This doesn't seem trustable at all, and extremely cherrypicked to make their framework seem better than the others when in reality it doesn't really seem to deliver in that regard.

[@matress-4-2323]

that's benchmarking in a nutshell. i enjoy benchmarking but it should always be taken with a grain of salt. when there is a significant difference in performance, it will usually mean something, but this benchmark is not exhaustive enough and is too minimal.

[@belphegorPrime]

It's Theo and the Avengers of frontend frameworks

[@v02dv]

VUE MENTIONED LETS GOOOOOO VUE

[@naresh_deeti]

0:45 JS frameworks ?, Why Angular is not included, it's not just in this benchmark, do frontend devs hate Angular 🤔

[@hasnatjamil1101]

Well of course. You're not a true FE engineer if you don't hate the guts of Angular. It's just common knowledge.

[@naresh_deeti]

@@hasnatjamil1101 No idea, I'm not a Frontend dev

[@0xdiane]

Having a line on the first chart hurt me

[@TheLoGgIDK]

What happend to Qwik, why do no body talk about it? Is it too similar to Solid and Solid won the popularity contest?

[@edwardallenthree]

Everyone defending their favorite framework is if it's a sports team is hilarious.

[@dasten123]

Vue is so damn underrated! I would _never_ pick React voluntarily and yet everybody keeps using it for some strange reason

[@thegrumpydeveloper]

There’s lies, damned lies, and benchmarks.

[@vitosnatios]

bro on dev mode 💀

[@furycorp]

Realistically when was the last time the framework performance actually remotely had an impact on your app? This never comes up in business apps in 99%+ of cases and the only time I've ever encountered it is screwing around for fun, messing around with 3D + webGL, etc. Unless a framework is perceptibly slow to users it doesn't really matter and it won't cost you any users or customers, but it will cost you money if you get sucked into premature optimization.

[@dotnetapp]

i will look to create an angular sample this afternoon

[@isuperman1113n]

Wish they had Qwik too

[@indeecjo]

It's not that SSR performance doesn't matter. But you can scale always scale when your problem is server side. When your problem is client side your only solution is to optimize the code. We better see some real life examples thast would include all loading time to compare better.

[@jackevansevo]

It's the same story every single time and it's tiring. Each time a benchmark is posted it's almost always just disingenuous advertisement for a product/framework. You almost immediately have people in the replies pointing out flaws. I see this with runtimes (Deno vs Node vs Bun), I see this with frameworks, I see this with libraries. Literally none of this matters because it's possible to write crappy/slow software in any framework.

[@AI_FOR_555]

First thumbnail was good n can generate high CTR

[@AlemMemić]

Angular?

[@paulmtali723]

14:50 React is a library... 😂😂😂

[@IAmOxidised7525]

At this point benchmarks are only a marketing tool now , jokers running around with benchmarks 😂

[@watchme222]

how about angular?

[@MarkJKellett]

again, you could definitely get a quicker response from react if you used a stream? waiting for the entire request to finish would surely negate the rum stats associated with this being bad?

[@_y7ya]

Theo what's your criteria for taking channel sponsors? Just wondering as I'm not really able to differentiate between if you're sponsoring for the sake of sponsoring or if also because it's a product you think would be valuable to you or your demographic.

[@billy818]

money?

[@_y7ya]

@@billy818 Well I'd like to assume he has some motive for not selling trust for money.

[@AndrewVelez]

Nextjs does provide a render method.

[@k3nsei]

Those kind of benchmarks are trash. Build real world apps then compare.

[@mjerez6029]

Is this not like an old month old?

[@kheldinacherchour1576]

You're X link is wrong !! Nice video btw

[@rasibn]

Wtf svelte = react confirmed???

[@Alysonhower]

Svelte => React wrapper

[@thunfisch987]

Is this a reupload? I feel like i've seen it already

[@irvinmuziwenkosi]

Maybe it was live

[@succatash]

Nah react rocks, complex apps and ssr is odd.

[@thoughtsuponatime847]

He says veet

[@NathanStrutz]

This is the way.

[@saiphaneeshk.h.5482]

Where does WordPress sit here?

[@NathanStrutz]

Too high level. PHP could be benchmarked like this.

[@stenh-vf9ib]

Atleast give the tweet you made the video about...

[@mikeeomega]

This is an old topic, isn't it?

[@RaaynML]

Those relying on AI to code are only working to further reduce the quality of future AI-generated code

[@gro967]

It’s just the standard now.

[@MusTheFan]

Web dev sucks, all these results suck

[@n2-yt]

Vue is the best!

[@rusting_in_peace]

📊✅

[@IAmOxidised7525]

Svelte yay

[@universe_decoded797]

Imagine having tunnel vision on ms. Hypnotizing all his viewers for ms upgrades. Make some real videos dude

[@RobbPage]

thing is, NO ONE cares.

[@tungthanh4297]

where's angular sir?

[@tjblackman08]

Matteo fixed his tests and reposted a thoughtful article about everything. If you're shading him for this, you know nothing. He's not a famous framework author like RH, RC, DA, but in the wider NodeJS world, he's absolutely legendary. It's honestly unreal how much code he touches. Anyway, interesting video, glad Svelte had some redemption!

[@t3dotgg]

Matteo is a friend and I’m very happy with how he handled things, as I clearly state in the video you just commented on without watching

[@iceinvein]

I have no idea what video he watched

[@Abdul-MelikPasanovic]

First

[@lenvaz8957]

Is this a trend!? 😅

[@salimpalim]

@@lenvaz8957 It’s been for the last 10 years bro

[@nehalpradhan2229]

🍪🍪🍪

[@nehalpradhan2229]

[@lenvaz8957]

@@salimpalim late to the party 🥳

[@oserodal2702]

Hey Theo, what do you think about VDom libraries like snabbdom?