Tank Chats

[@Ricekake872]

I love the fact that German engineers glanced at the Patton and said "its not good enough."

[@mbr5742]

They actually did use the M48 for a very long time. Longer than some variants of the Leopard 1 (The 1A4 mainly). The latest german version of the M48 the M48A2GA2 actually replaced KaJaPa in the heavy companies of the german Jäger (Light Infantry) Batallions. Talking to guys who drove both KaJaPa and M48 in these units: The 48 was appreciated for the more flexibel and powerful gun and disliked for being far larger and less mobile

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

Different priorities. They aren't as concerned about getting a tank across the Atlantic Sea before it can do some fighting.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

Having visited the Fulda Gap in person in 1986, I know this little hunter would have given the Communist Hoards quite a beating and were a great addition to NATO forces. The Germans did not consider then "Better" than the M48, since they had different roles, and we Yanks did not put the same value on highly mobile AT guns that the Germans did.

[@kevinsullivan3448]

@@hazzardalsohazzard2624 We, the US, weren't worried about getting tanks across the Atlantic either, the bulk of US Armor that would be used at the Fulda Gap was stored in Germany and only the crews had to fly across. That was what the yearly ReForGer (Return of Forces to Germany) exercise was all about. There were just enough NATO forces AT the Fulda Gap to block an advance until the bulk of US heavy armor could counter attack.

[@TheSaturnV]

Listen carefully and you will see he was referring to the gun, not the tank.

[@michaelsalt4565]

My unit was "attacked" by a Jagdpanzer Kanone unit whilst on exercise in West Germany. Looked quite impressive as they rolled across the open countryside. Fortunately for us they were ambushed by M48s and we were able to carry out an orderly withdrawal before counter attacking

[@mbr5742]

Rare sight. The lil beasts where ambush hunters and prefered NOT to come out in the open where turret tanks had to many advantages.

[@porsche911sbs]

@@mbr5742 Yeah you did not want to be in the open with the KaJaPa. It's only defenses were its low profile and mobility, that armor it had wasn't going to stop anything.

[@mbr5742]

@@porsche911sbs Armor was "good enough" against artillery barrages and probing fire from maschine guns. Nothing more. Partially to keep it small (It was not cheap) and Partially because at the time of the design work many believed HEAT would make armor mostly obsolet. The Jaguar missile tanks later got uparmored similar to Leopard 1

[@porsche911sbs]

@@mbr5742 exactly, less armor also gave it better power-to-weight ratios, making it more mobile

[@AsbestosMuffins]

@@porsche911sbs kinda the point of TD's, armored enough to discourage the infantry but not really supposed to take hits either

[@tombowen7564]

I remember walking through the woods near my Kaserne near Mannheim in 1973 and a platoon of these JPK’s came clanking down the trail right at me. Scary as hell!

[@KMac329]

I never knew that the Jagdpanzer-type German armored vehicles had this second life during the Cold War. I always learn something new watching Tank Chats and Anti-tank Chats.

[@MrGreghome]

Fun Fact, there is one with 2 canons.....

[@paulroberts3639]

I want one. Nice and low for a Macdonalds drive-through, robust enough for a dealing with Carpark Karens.

[@mbr5742]

Get a Beob, a KaJaPa without the gun. Fits the garage or carport m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/amO3noSsmZp1fc0

[@hurricaneace143]

If that's the case, get a Bagelpanzer instead 😂

[@cmdredstrakerofshado1159]

🤣🤣🤣

[@scottyfox6376]

Dear Santa....

[@Ganiscol]

But how many Karens can it handle at a time with their acid personality burning through armor at an alarming rate and only 12 rounds per minute to dispose of Karens? What you reckon? 🤔

[@Guhonter]

I've seen these and other variations on that chassis camouflaged with branches and greenery, they were absolutely indistinguishable from shrubbery, you could only tell which one was a tank when they went active. Really impressive.

[@TheShrike616]

Saw this type on parade in Brussels in the 80s as a kid. Quite impressive.

[@Ciderwinder]

Chat #131 - shouldn't this be about a certain Tiger? :)

[@XboxBruka]

I was going to say the exact same thing. They have definitely missed a trick here.

[@dwightehowell8179]

They could afford a lot of these or a handful of Tigers. They already knew which were going to be the most mission effective and went with these.

[@mbr5742]

@@dwightehowell8179 When these where build - Tiger was already razorblades. And the german and french post war design (Leo1, AMX30) was a lot closer to Panther

[@musicmaster417]

@Sidewinder Forge Both the Tiger and the story of the Tiger 131 has already been explained in this channel

[@michaelguerin56]

The Tiger named 131 at the Tank Museum did not come from Hill 131! 😀

[@jamescarid3448]

Brings back memories from my service time in W. Germany. I remember looking inside an OP variant (kanone removed) and noticing the driver had a huge steering wheel. Cheers from Canada.

[@TSh110]

I love this channel's content so much! It never leaves me bored because I can always rewatch a single video to see if I missed any important detail! My favorite tank youtube channel!

[@Fruktig_Varukorg]

Hmmmm, a very odd phenomenon indeed... i feel like i recognise your profile pic... (169134)

[@mahony8618]

You can definitly see the DNA of the Jagdpanzer IV

[@Ulani101]

You sure can. The concept is similar, but the doctrine for use was likely taken from the Jagdpanzer 38 t units. Hide, fire a couple of rounds, and relocate.

[@xeon39688]

@@Ulani101 yeah that's now these anti tanks should be used like ambusher or sniper

[@Locomotiveman1994]

My thoughts exactly

[@christopherreed4723]

The book "Panzer Aces" has an account of one of the more successful German tank commanders doing exactly that with a pair of Jagdpanthers during the Soviet advance on Berlin. Lots of foliage on the front of the tank, park at a bend in the road, kill the lead enemy tank and maybe another if he's close behind, then fall back to the next blind spot in the road and do it again. Iirc, with two vehicles they added refinements like a flanking ambush by the second vehicle when the units behind the (now deceased) pointman deployed against the first. And counterattacks to throw the enemy back whenever possible. Stuff like that really screws with your speed of advance. And some of the people in the decision loop for the Kanonenjagdpanzer had been the ones driving those Jagdpanthers. Sheer cussedness, back-against-the-wall mentality, and cold, hard determination. The delaying actions against the Red Army had a last-ditch desperation to them that I never caught in accounts from Normandy.

[@hurricaneace143]

That and the jagdpanther plus the E-25

[@19iason19]

Neighbor was gunner on a Kanonenjadgpanzer in late 70s, early 80s. Always said how much he loved the tank and that they would usually being best during exercise against MBT. The stealth and mobility gave new tactical options which MBT never had.

[@filibandicoot1580]

always looking forward to these videos all the way from Louisville Kentucky, can't wait until I can come in person!

[@slartybartfarst55]

Always a pleasure to watch a chat with David Willey. I do so miss those Garden chats, though!

[@Talon3000]

Do you miss the garden or the doggo? :P

[@slartybartfarst55]

@@Talon3000 It's like in the game Cluedo (Or "Clue" as it's called in the USA) when you make a call.... "David Willey, In the Garden, with the Doggie" I miss it all.

[@ddraig1957]

Considering the thousands of tanks the Warsaw Pact had in the Cold War,this was a pretty useful addition to the Bundeswehr's anti-tank arsenal.

[@ICCUWANSIUT]

@Samson Holdsworth beaten them? Likely. But the fighting would have been severely deprecating to the NATO forces.

[@gusgone4527]

They should have been forced to buy from the allies and never permitted to have an armaments industry ever again. Amend that slightly. Not for 100 years. Enough time to change the national mentality and rid the country of National Socialists.

[@ICCUWANSIUT]

@@gusgone4527 yes because that went well the first time. Oh wait, world war 2 happened anyways.

[@kimmoj2570]

@@gusgone4527Germany is very liberal country indeed. Was already in 60s, young people being as removed from nazism as day is from night. Insane to discard/punish the ONLY big country in NATO that had "train all" conscription. In red dawn scenario 80s NATO numbers in front would had been laughable without millions W-German reservists, and their panzer divisions with Leo2s. Around 1500 by 1985.

[@laszlo5201]

@@gusgone4527 cry harder.

[@TornadoADV]

It's a shame they never got serious about equipping them all with the 105mm from the Leopard 1s, but ATGMs were the wave of the future after all.

[@Melthornal]

iirc there was a lot of political stink behind this vehicle. i believe the contract was given out via corruption, it hit the news papers and people turned against the vehicle claiming it was a waste of money and a symbol of corruption.

[@wiscomatt3192]

I love how David Willey and Mr. Fletcher have such different ways of presenting these tanks to us, very dynamic and fun.

[@doogleticker5183]

Excellent.Thanks to David Willey, Esq., and his super team of men and women that keep history alive.

[@Rauschgenerator]

The funniest comment I ever saw about the Kanonenjagdpanzer was: "Hey, Belgiums... do you need something that prevents foreign tank armies from rushing over your country? ...I think we have something for you..." :-D

[@korbell1089]

I laughed at that. What I have said for years is Belgium needs to build an 8 lane highway between France and Germany with arrows pointing to the respective countries and a big sign in the middle saying "Leave us the FOOK alone!"

[@spoddie]

@@korbell1089 The army needs to be equipped with high-vis uniforms, baton flashlights, and maps written in French and German they can hand out.

[@superwout]

Heheheh, I'm Belgian...

[@Teknokraatti]

@Samson Holdsworth France and Germany used to be rivals and constantly at war with each other. Both prepared for wars by building forts and infrastructure at their respective borders. Belgium has border with both Germany and France and with the border between France and Germany being tough to crack, going through the much smaller and weaker Belgium was an obvious solution. Germany attacked France by invading through Belgium in both the 1st and the 2nd world war. The western political efforts after the war aimed to bring Germany (Or rather West Germany at that point) and France to such an integrated industrial and economic co-operation that war would be practically not an option any more, hence making a stop to the passing-through invasions of Belgium much to their rejoice. That political effort since evolved into EU.

[@gusgone4527]

@@superwout You have my sympathy.

[@ganndeber1621]

David Willey's tank chats are always very informative and well presented. Nice one

[@bungobox7454]

Mr WIlley, sir, you are someone who has great enthusiasm, super oratory skills and a likeable charisma. Thank you for all your hard work.

[@j_squiggle22]

It looks like a super Stug… don’t fix what isn’t broken

[@mbr5742]

Closer to the Jagdpanzer 4 due to sloped armor. But with a bigger gun, closer to the 88mm of the Jagdpanzer V Jagdpanther Btw: In germany this vehicle IS known as Jagdpanzer 4-5...

[@hanswurst2189]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: the StuG just doesn't get enough love

[@mbr5742]

Jagdpanzer, Kanone, 90mm - der KaJaPa aka Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5 . Nice little beast.

[@rebsredone450]

Which is actually the correct name. Jagdkanone doesn’t cut it. Sorry for being German….

[@holycrusader3336]

I used to be in the Greek Armored forces, and our commander liked to have discussions with us after training, he told me about this one particular tank. I was in the 22nd Assault Armored Division as a Loader in the Leopard 1A5 number 34.

[@combatantezoteric2965]

how fast do you think you could load the gun on average?sorry for the stupid question.

[@holycrusader3336]

@@combatantezoteric2965 oh no not stupid at all! If I remember correctly I was a fast one, about 8 seconds till the gun was ready and the safety was off. Loaders had to go through gunner training and gunners had to go through loader training. I remember me and my gunner and also best friend hitting 8s and 9s on training exercises. Basically anything bellow 10 was a win for us.

[@combatantezoteric2965]

@@holycrusader3336 that is just amazing! Russian autoloders on the T80s charge in only 6.5-7.0 seconds, so its amazing how fast can a human loader be in comparison ( and a loader is so much more valuable, he can be a gunner too in need ). Thanks for your service!

[@holycrusader3336]

@@combatantezoteric2965 oh thanks! I'll never be in war but in war time greece pulls out the Leo 2 A6 Hel, which is much better. Although only elite units that are stationed in our borders get to use it for training... We get to shoot the M48 and the Leo 1 which is very retro.

[@mebsrea]

@@holycrusader3336 What's the rationale behind Greece even *having* a tank force? From what I know of Greek geography, it seems like one of the least tank-friendly landscapes on the planet, between all the islands and mountains.

[@thedungeondelver]

I can't recall exactly the comment but someone was telling me that crews liked these vehicles because they were very roomy and relatively comfortable inside, easy to sleep in while on exercises.

[@mbr5742]

Likely the Chieftain

[@thedungeondelver]

@@mbr5742 I think it was on his 2-parter on the Kanonenjagdpanzer, somewhere in the comments, by a former crewman yeah.

[@mbr5742]

@@thedungeondelver One of the few Panzers that Mr "Aren't you a bit large for a tanker" did not consider too small IIRC. Now why do I have Sofilein in a long flowing robe making that comment in my head...

[@thedungeondelver]

@@mbr5742 *fires TOW missile* "This is some rescue! When you got here didn't you have a plan for getting out?!" So I guess if Sofi is Leia and Chieftain is Luke, would that make Potential History Han, and David Fletcher Obi-Wan?

[@mbr5742]

@@thedungeondelver Maybe "Gun Jesus" Ian McCollum as Chewie and (since Han is Ex Navy) Drachinifel as Han...

[@Real_Claudy_Focan]

In the belgian doctrine it wasnt used to "stop" a soviet invasion in their AoR in Germany but rather "slow down" and harass soviet invasion To give some time for main troops/units to deploy and take their main defensive positions way back in the country and then stop the invasion This was a fast firing, quite punchy, highly mobile, slow profile ambusher ! The epitomy of "form fits the function" of tanks ! The pattern of engagement was ; Engage, pin them on place for a brief moment, withdraw few kilometers back, re-engage when they carried on and so on !

[@BA-gn3qb]

That doctrine didn't work in 1940.

[@bv2623]

@@BA-gn3qb Uhm it actually somewhat worked in 1940 ;) A Belgian armoured unit with light tanks and light tank destroyers (basically AT guns mounted on tankettes) were doing just that, pinning the Germans were they could, buying time for the allies (advancing into Belgium and retreating to Dunkirk afterwards). Bit similar to the role the light infantry (chasseurs ardennais) had to play in the Ardennes.

[@troutwarrior6735]

I think it's very interesting to see how the wartime jagpanzer's design is reflected in this thing.

[@TIBORANGE]

when i was in the army in the late 90s, our unit still used this tanks...and we loved it...we had i think 4 or 5 of the Raketenjagdpanzer with the Hot missiles...and the mortat unit had some VB (Arti-recon) tanks wich were Kanonenjagdpanzer but without the cannons...they were much faster an manouvarable than the mortar M113s...as a conscript-unit they were serviced really good...1h of driving and 8h of service... :)

[@coreyjohnson1561]

This is the best Tank channel you could find

[@ianmarsden1130]

Superb as ever. David gives fantastic and detailed talks every time. I bloody love it!

[@Betterhose]

I think casemate tank destroyers are still a viable concept. Most of the advantages still apply today. -the lower silhouette -the lighter weight due to the smaller vehicle -the weight saved can be then invest in mobility, protection or armament -a more powerful gun can be installed than in a traversable turret

[@zafranorbian757]

Casemates still pop up from time to time, like the swedish S-Tank or the VT testbed. The question is always if they fit what you currently need. I would not be supprised if a resource war like ww2 would break out, to find new casemates on the field again.

[@mbr5742]

Quite a few KaJaPa (462) where rebuild into BeOp tanks. They removed the gun but kept the mantlet (for weight distribution). Used until 1999 and kept in reserves until 2004

[@ProSimex84]

What is BeOp?

[@mbr5742]

@@ProSimex84 Beobachtungs Panzer - observation tank for the artillery. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/amO3noSsmZp1fc0

[@ProSimex84]

@@mbr5742 thank you

[@Sean_Coyne]

I was not aware of the Kanonenjagdpanzer, until seeing this video from The Tank Museum, which made it all the more fascinating. Thanks David!

[@hermandebondt7483]

There is a fully restored JPK in the Gunfire museum in Brasschaat Belgium :-)

[@thor8640]

It was a great platform, during my active service during the 90's we had the Jaguar II and the Artillery Observation version in the brigade. As ArtOb the tank was a hoot to drive, R&R the engine was a bit of a pain but lessons were learned and newer designs were much easier to work on. While being based at CFB Shilo we received a KaJaPa around 94-95 for the base museum, that tank was absolutely flawless with a fresh overhaul. Our weapon techs had to make the 90mm inoperable as it was fully functional upon arrival. Neither of us could believe the condition the tank was in, haven't been at the museum for a few years. I should go for a visit again as I live only 200 km away from the base.

[@christhesmith]

Thanks for omitting the flash commercial!

[@carol7311]

The Grandchild of StuG III,Hetzer and Jagdpanzer IV

[@acr4809]

The last sturmgeschutz! Simple stealthy and deadly! Beautiful vehicle.

[@coqimsure156]

Visiting the museum tomorrow, can't wait to have a look around (again) 😆

[@Schaneification]

I live in 1 for 3 days when I was in Germany cross training with the W.G. in 1982 . The W.G. Still had some M49A5's and I spent a few days on Leopard 1s . I let the Germen crews take a look at my M60A3 and the TTS sights .

[@hydorah]

A bit cheeky but I enjoy listening for mis-speaks. 'Warsaw plact', 'Frive', 'Bilge-ians' were a few that I got. Very good Tank (Destroyer) Chat! Nice work

[@Panzer_Tracks]

Tanks chats #131, I love that number

[@antiquitatenexpert8951]

This is a good Story,tank you.

[@jonahdewitt8464]

Saw one of these in person in the middle of Canada (german armoured divisions used to do live fire training here) what a cool piece of equipment

[@danielf1313]

Excellent timing of the video as I just saw one of the prototypes (MOWAG Gepard) at the Swiss Army Museum in Full-Reuenthal earlier today 👍🏻

[@davidgoodnow269]

I _thoght_ I recognized that! I remember it from Belgian service, and always wondered why they weren't converted either to an L7 gun or HOT missile carrier more broadly, after the 90 mm was no longer in wide service. A difficult target, with good mobility and reliability.

[@him050]

Just in time for my lunch break!

[@Fightbreak]

Enjoy your lunch mate

[@alexrennison8070]

Amen.

[@Joshua_N-A]

Now that's called a perfect timing.

[@pzakp311]

The rebuild KaJaPa, used as an OP tank for the the artillery FOB, was quite roomy. You had enough space to lay down and have a good sleep under armour fully sctretched out. And I'm 6 ft.1 (1,85 m). And it was pretty mobile due to the reduction in weight.

[@KannixKostnix]

I wonder where, though. Certainly not in my batallion. Field artillery maybe? A mystery I am still trying to solve since I was sent off to do my technician training on that thing and never got to see one in service again. Even when the M113 based observation vehicles were suddendly pulled from service due to safety issues, the observer crews apparently used their mobile equipment from Marders instead.

[@mbr5742]

@@KannixKostnix It left active service in 1999.

[@Ob1sdarkside]

Superb video, didn't know Germany kept up with the idea after the war. Still looks great!

[@maxpayne2574]

I have a friend that was a tank driver stationed in W Germany during the cold war. They were told in a full-scale Soviet invasion they would last about 10 minutes!

[@PhilippBayer]

Confirmed! In my 70s I was in a tank reconnaissance unit, consisting of Leopard battle tanks and Luchs reconnaissance tanks. We had a theoretical survival time of around 10- 20 minutes

[@WillHayes44]

Well, full reverse after 1-2 shots, if you are brave 2-3 shots and you may can be part of yet another defense line.

[@darthimperious8661]

I have a new respect for 6.3-7.3 Germany in war thunder. Thank you for this educational video

[@mr_whippy99_84]

I love the m46 tiger hiding behind the coverings 😂

[@kristofferjohansson3768]

Me too. M46 Korean I assume.

[@mr_whippy99_84]

@@kristofferjohansson3768 yes, the tiger on the front is a Korean war relic, the Koreans did this to scare the enemy

[@raymondkisner9240]

I remember a WW2 movie from 1960s were they used these as stugs or Panzer4/70 in a very good Italian/German/American made one

[@roycarter6235]

Interesting, you can see the lessons learnt in WW11 resonating with the design of this vehicle.

[@dannylamont5060]

De JPK 70061 eerste dienst jaren bij het 9 linie cie. JPK in soest en vanaf 1987 dienstgedaan bij het 5 linie tot begin 1990 heb er jaren zelf aan gewerkt .

[@HerrGausF]

There were plans to rebuild these with 105 or even 120mm guns, but they couldn't overcome the enormous front heaviness of the designs. Therefore missile systems were considered to be the better upgrade solution.

[@nesyboi9421]

*Ahem* Not the only reason.

[@mbr5742]

No. Paul Mulkay, a fan of the old Twilight:2000 Tabletop Role Playing Game had a fan design on his website. That was purely his imagination. Germany DID work on casemat tanks with 105 and 120mm guns but those where totally new designs based on work Leopard 2 components (VT 1-1 and VT 1-2) with twin canons, autoloader, stabilisation etc.

[@johnlansing2902]

Thank you again.

[@andreaslinck9706]

Good video like always. One Point in the end of there duty, a lot of them was rebuild as we call it vb-tanks for mortar or artillery fire leading. With out the gun it becomes much faster. The Problem was no night vision.

[@donaldmoreland8909]

There are two of these at Armoured and Artillery museum in Cairns Queensland

[@tacomas9602]

Good to know the Kanonenjagdpanzer is a reliable little machine! One day I'll buy one.

[@JohnAdams-qc2ju]

I know it is a big ask but wish there were photos or video inside for this series - so people got a idea what the inside looks like.

[@fanatiek1]

In Germany the JPK was a Cavalry weapon. In Belgium it belonged to the Infantry. Pretty nice job for an Infantryman ;-)

[@ProfessorPesca]

The amount of times David says ‘again’ makes me keep thinking I’ve missed something.

[@forbeshutton5487]

The 60s Stug. Groovy Baby!

[@eoincollins379]

I'm surprised, I had never seen the tank or heard of it. Nice.

[@mbr5742]

Not to be seen was an important part of the mission profile :) The tank hunters were really good at camouflage and finding interesting positions. Like IN an above ground parking garage...

[@ba28272827]

You'll see alot of them on War Thunder at BR 6.3... Its one of the first AFVs in War Thunder with access to HEAT-FS, its mean. Trash armour though, it depends on who hits first.

[@mbr5742]

@@ba28272827 Just like in real life. 50mm is good enough against a Dushka or so but not more

[@rgriffinRETIRED_SHEEPDOG]

Excellent video.

[@rosied6351]

Excellent as usual💖

[@Niinsa62]

Nice video, thanks! I wasn't aware West Germany used tank destroyers.

[@brucerobert227]

neat vid of a favorite tank! PS...I see a kitty kat under a tarp!

[@shorttimer874]

From what I remember from being in M114's in West Germany in the early 70's it would be challenging to not poke that long barrel into buildings when going through small towns...

[@PvtRyan-ke4of]

My favourit armored vehicle!

[@geraldtrudeau3223]

this shows just what a racket war is

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you ,

[@kippamip]

As always, excellent.

[@andrewsarantakes639]

Outstanding

[@Lumpy15120]

Thanks for the nice video! But PLEASE give that KanJaPa new rubber pads on his tracks :)

[@Pavlos_Charalambous]

To be honest The idea of replacing the main gun with missiles sounds very progressive for the 70s, even for today's standards, I don't how much effective it was but surely an interesting idea

[@mbr5742]

They did not replace it back then. They used the same chassis to build a gun tank and a missile tank. Both had NBC protection and fought under armor. The missile tank used the SS11 and later the HOT. The SS11 had a long minimal range of 500m (It was a MCLOS system) so a gun tank was also needed. A number of the gun tanks later had the cannon removed and a huge hatch installed. Through that an infantry TOW launcher could be raised and fired but without NBC protection

[@jnievele]

Not all were converted into Jaguars - some were converted into the Beobachtungspanzer, a Forward Observer vehicle with the gun removed but the gun mantlet still in place.

[@PanzerdivisionWiking]

That was a great tank talk!

[@kiloalphahotel5354]

Thanks for the vid. Always great.

[@barkermjb]

Thanks!

[@charlesdexterward7781]

@1:25 What is the soft, nylon-like material around the base of the gun? I've seen that on numerous post-WWII vehicles. Is it an extra layer of waterproofing?

[@Sp00kyV0id]

I believe so yes

[@mockingbird0901]

I'm under the impression that it's mostly to keep sand and such out

[@ting111111]

Comparing this to the Strv 103, this looks rather pedestrian. JPZ 4-5 looks like it was designed 20 years earlier. But they were designed and produced at more or less the same time.

[@mbr5742]

Both specialist designs for their home country. The Swedes had needs for a more complex vehicle fitting more jobs. The germans filled many roles of the Strv 103 with Pattons and Leopards

[@johncook3817]

Thanks, very interesting!!

[@TheArklyte]

Here is the thing that bothers me - we switched to high velocity smoothbore cannons firing APDS and to nonrotating HEAT ATGMs for tank busting so this thing stayed behind, BUT this isn't why casemate SPGs appeared in the first place. First ones were assault guns with requirement to get gun closer to defensive position while keeping crew in relative safety and all of that on lighter budget then a true tank with same gun. So, since ATGM is too costly for such task and not everyone can have MBT of their own for every platoon, how do we intended to fill that role? I know that we had gone back to howitzer-launcher on BMP-3 which means that autocannon alone wasn't enough for infantry support. So the idea might have still had some value if there was a good enough howitzer-launcher? Something akin to Shileila, except working one:D Combine kanonepanzer and raketenpanzer into single vehicle that can use ATGMs for tank busting and have expendable supply of HE/HESH/HEAT rounds to pepper infantry and defenses with.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

nah, that role today is taken up by helicopters, fighter bombers and modern SPG´s with guided/precision ammunition. why get close to a target, that can shoot back, if you also could sit at a greater standoff distance and destroy it from safety? the concept of the ATGM carrier is still viable, especcially when using the larger ATGM like Spike, TOW, 9K114 Shturm etc, wich are not really that manportable, but the classic assault gun is obsolete.

[@TheArklyte]

@@zhufortheimpaler4041 yeah, and Toyota Hilux with .50 and recoilless rifle is the future if warfare. Suuure... Helicopters, fighter bombers and SPGs fill the same roles as before CAS, multirole fighter and SPG. Guided munitions and ATGMs cost a LOT.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@TheArklyte consider this: if your infantry is able to carry weapons, that fullfill the role of an assault gun from WW2 (close range firing on entrenced/fortified positions), and they have those weapons (Panzerfaust 3, Carl Gustaf, AT4 etc), the assault gun looses its justification. and guided/precision munitions for Mortars and 155mm Artillery is not that expensive and significantly more effective than line of sight/direct fire by an AFV vs entrenchments. every modern military uses them. also modern IFV like Puma or the Boxer with 30mm turret use programmable airburst ammunition, wich fullfulls the same job.

[@mbr5742]

Actually the Brits have used MILAN ATGM as bunker busters in the Falklands. You can buy a lot of those for a single KaJaPa style vehicle. And unless you go up against a modern army in a Red Storm Rising scenario the dozends of MILAN teams are likely more survivable since anything with less armor than a modern battletank can easily be killed by Panzerfaust 3 or MILAN/Javelin level weapons.

[@petewood2350]

Does the Tank Museum have any Information on the Elbonian Tank Corps?.

[@MrAstrojensen]

Some, but it's a bit muddled.

[@j.f.fisher5318]

I feel like something like this with a 120mm breech-loading mortar would be a great infantry fire support weapon.

[@martinhogg5337]

Great stuff!

[@sm70911]

Basically the E-100 doctrine

[@jameshawkins1339]

Great chat thanks. I am surprised that this vehicle did not get the L7A3 105mm gun which was used on the Leopard 1. That would have been a better option than using missiles imo and would have been effective against later Soviet tanks which the original 90mm might have struggled against.

[@combatantezoteric2965]

it was good enough with heatfs against standard t54/t55s and t62s

[@barlasalagoz159]

Can someone explain what would happen if pak 40 had the same barrel length as the 17pdr? would their performance be same because 75-76.2 is more less the same or was it the propellant TYPE and AMOUNT that was giving 17pdr the edge like it was almost or even better than 1 meter(approx.) panther's gun and as I mentioned the weight of the ammo was even heavier than 88 ammo as I remember in wikipedia so it is probably the type and amount of propellant right?

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

the 17pdr is a 76.2mm L/55 gun, the PaK40 is a 75mm L/46 gun, the 17pdr is not so much longer than the PaK40. in raw penetration values, the 17pdr and PaK40 had about the same penetrative performence with APCBC/APCR on 1000m / 30° angle. this was achieved, by a stronger (bigger/hotter) charge on the PaK40´s ammunition and a bigger chamber, wich was about 1/3 larger than for example the ZIS-3´s ammunition charge. the Panthers main gun, the KwK42 75mm L/70 had significantly higher performence than the 17pdr. where the 17pdr outperformed both, was when firing APDS (armorpiercing discarding sabot), wich was extremly inaccurate and unstable, due to the induced extra spin of the subcaliber round by the rifling of the barrel (sabot ammunition really does not like getting spun when shot, apfsds accuracy will suffer too), wich resulted in a very low hit propability.

[@OtterTreySSArmy]

@@zhufortheimpaler4041 uhhh are we reading the same tables? PaK40(L/48) has a pen(with Pzgr 39 APCBC) of just 106mm at 100m. 80mm at 1000m. 17lber is 150mm at 1000m with APCBC. Although I do feel obligated to note that firing of APCR out of the PaK would be rare and not usually advisable due to its rarity and tendency to ricochet. Sabot from the 17lber is also not the end all be all of anti-tank munitions I'm WWII due to just how inaccurate it was. You are right about the comparison between the KwK 42 L/70 and 17lber though, those two are more or less equivalent. PaK 43/KwK 43 and 20lber are also more or less equivalent in terms of down range performance using APCBC ammunition. Sabot on the 20lber does change things significantly since the 20lber sabot was much more accurate.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@OtterTreySSArmy the L/48 barrel was only used in the KwK40/StuK40, the PaK40 only used the L/46 Barrel. The interesting problem is, that the german and english tables have the about the same penetration values at 1000m (deviations of 1-2mm), but the english tables assume 30° angled targets, the german a 60° angled target, other languages tend to copy english data. (and this mess of tables continues in the whole of the internet) this discrepancy is a major problem. for the 17pdr english tables only give you the 90° penetration values, while german "tables" give you penetration at 30° on 1000m, french and spanish sources simply use the english sources / leave penetration tables out. so yeah its all a bit guesswork i guess? on 90° angled targets at 1000m the tables (not very reliable) show, that the 17pdr has a slightly higher penetration. but in overall performence they are comparable with the 17pdr having a slight edge on penetration, while the PaK40 has the better optics and higher first hit propability etc.

[@bahamut149]

The tiger face in the background be like: Really!!, awesome dude!

[@OneofInfinity.]

12 rounds a min, impressive.

[@szombathygabor4299]

Not too much informations on the video. Turretless (told three times). Low profile. Super!

[@Frenchcrop]

Anvers? Surely Antwerp. DefinitelyiInteresting insight though.

[@paulcroshier6708]

No Offence, but the ammo belt on the G3 at 8:24 appears to be put in backwards ...

[@jberg3447]

I wanna see these make a comeback but as a drone infantry assault tank

[@jamesbass4154]

The Germans during WWII did a comparison of the Stug vs anti-tank gun. Kill ratio for the Stug was 15 to 1 and for the anti-tank gun 3 to 1. They always preferred the Stug because it was more survivable and would live to fight another day. Unless the anti-tank gun was used in mass they were quickly lost. (Pop, Pop, Pop, goodbye)

[@mbr5742]

Look at the ambush scene from A Bridge To Far. Armor on the KaJaPa is good enough to stop the artillery unless they get a direct hit. And the maschine guns. So a tank gun hit is needed. At the time these things where introduced aiming was optics only, no thermals etc. So hitting a well camouflaged 205cm high target in a prepared position is difficult. And they where part of a team. Stand still to long and the Raketenjagdpanzer might serve you an SS11 or later a HOT from 3000+ meter. Those where even LESS visible (thing M901 ITV and then get a smaller launcher head) m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXbUiXisbdiKkJY Late models had a larger thermal sight.

[@lkchild]

Nice video!

[@Kumimono]

Kinda curious, when those videos were shot. VHS?

[@mbr5742]

Most likely. There are quite a few videos in the Classix channel of the Bundeswehr