"They should have been sanctioned long ago" Anne Applebaum on Russia invasion of Ukraine

An interview with writer, historian, journalist Ann Applebaum, who won the Pulitzer Prize. Anne has been studying the societies in Central and Eastern Europe for over 30 years. We talked about how the war could have been prevented, when it ends, what will happen to Putin’s dictatorship, and if Russia could join NATO.
00:00 “I do wish that we’d all prepared more” Troops in Poland, the Baltic States, and Romania after 2014. How the Ukrainian army prepared for war. Why did no one except the military believe that there would be a war. Is Russia dangerous? Why was this thought was inconvenient for the West?
05:00 How could the war have been prevented? Sanctions should have been implemented 8 years ago.
06:22 “The Myth of Russian Humiliation”: who made mistakes in the 90s? How does the special relationship between the US and Russian presidents necessitate conflict? Imperial rights of Russia. We need to start thinking differently about the collapse of the Soviet Union
15:10 More mistakes of the 1990s: The West refused to help because it thought there is no Soviet Union anymore. Why was there no Marshall Plan for Russia? “I think this was a big Western mistake.”
19:15 What would happen if the Communist Party won the 1996 elections? Yeltsin's victory is also a mistake.
21:19 Sincere Putin looks like Tony Blair, and Russia needs to join NATO
25:10 To censor technology companies operating in Russia is to offer a changed view of the world, help the state strengthen its system and wage an information war.
30:36 Has the approach to Russia changed in the West? We really need an alternative Russia, non-Putin or anti-Putin.
33:00 “Bad Guys are still Winning”: " “autocracy incorporated”, how the regimes support each other and why we’re at the beginning of this story. How Russia is turning into a vassal state that will be completely dependent on China
37:17 “The Twilight of Democracy”: the trend towards autocracy in the countries of the world. Will the war show the dangers of autocracy? The optimism of Francis Fukuyama and the revival of the idea of ​​democracy
40:35 How thousands of sources of information ruin the truth, and social networks make it difficult to democratic conversation. How did Hitler and Stalin use the radio?
47:44 GULAG, Holodomor in Ukraine and the crimes in Bucha - what can be the explanation for the terrible crimes? The behavior of Russians in Berlin in 1945 is similar to what we observe in Ukraine
53:49 What should Russia be like and what should we be after the war? The kind of future you’d want for Crimea
How Anne’s article about the war was called anti-Russian in 2014. Why NATO put troops in Europe. Sanctions towards Vladimir Putin should have been introduced long ago. Why there was no Marshall Plan for Soviet Union, why IMF didn’t work for Russia. What if Communist Party won elections in 1996. How Putin was behaving like Blair and wanted Russia in NATO. How censorship of Russia affect Apple and Google in Russia, KZbin in Russia. How China and Russia help each other, and how the was makes Russia a servant state of China. Why authoritarian practices become more popular in the world and how Putin’s dictatorship works. Why Hitler and Stalin loved radio. What Holodomor in Ukraine and Butcha have in common. Why FSB acts like NKVD in 40s in Ukraine occupation. Which state is Crimea?

[@user-tt9og9qz1w]

It was awfully entertaining to see this perspective. Thanks a lot for the English version. Keep on going please!

[@maximpopov8651]

She's a genius 💜 Peace Love and Democracy ☮️

[@frankshifreen]

She belongs with luminaries like Timothy Snyder, Masha Gessen, Ben Hodges, Robert Conquest. Prescience, wisdom, moralc ckarity

[@helenajaksic2009]

You are so wrong, she is a warmonger.

[@michaelniepel5978]

I can't stop wondering, why your excellent interviews with these outstanding experts and personalities gain such a ridiculously small amount of views. I just stumbled on your channel very recently and have already gained such a plethora of insights. Thank you so much for your work, Mikhail, and please, please carry on!

[@helenajaksic2009]

because it is not worth listening to propaganda. She is a Russophobe and cannot give a balanced opinion.

[@VladVexler]

Thank you so much for this!

[@awuma]

Excellent interview! This is possibly the best interview of Anne Applebaum that I have heard. She and Timothy Snyder are perhaps the most insightful English language observers of Eastern Europe today, and express themselves in local languages too, particularly in Polish.

[@lanashchybria7386]

Very interesting interview!!!

[@alenaustsinovich7348]

The real reason someone would help Eltsin come to power is for the open doors to the Russian market and surely not for the sake of democracy. Just the same thing as allowing Russian dirty money to flow into the world. No country had a problem with that until a month ago . Hopefully it’s a hard learned lesson and future “mistakes” will be avoided.

[@gogudelagaze1585]

If there's one thing I've learned in the years I've been here it's that westerners are quite naive. Humans in general tend to expect others to think and act the same way they do. Most western politicians were under the impression that Putin's a funny guy, but eventually, Russia will become just like France, Germany, or Norway. They applied the same strategy they tried in China, to just pump in money into joint ventures, in the hopes that a middle class would appear, and they would have liberal values. It also didn't hurt if they could get some of that dirty money, but the truth is.. they just didn't care. They have bigger problems to solve, like how to get more votes in the next election that's just around the corner. Authoritarians think in terms of decades, while elected officials think in terms of 2-4 years.

[@nouriaasrorova8986]

The Americans money is not dirty after Iraq, Syria, Yugoslavia, Vietnam, and so on.

[@suzannelooms7658]

The IMF DID give Russia loans. Read Joseph Stiglitz: Globalization and its discontents - which lays out clearly how the money was not used for the Russian economy, but went via oligarchs to tax havens.

[@gelkinmusic]

Thanks for the English version and the enterview!

[@eliseleonard3477]

Wonderful guest, great questions. I appreciate your style of drawing out the views of the guest without saying very much, but it makes me curious what you think. Hope you’re writing a book!

[@annagorska1229]

Great questions and so wise answers. I'm from Poland and wholeheartedly support Ukraine's fight for democracy and independence, and I wish with all my heart for a Russia that protects and respects human rights. Many thanks for this interview

[@jezalb2710]

A fan of Ms Appletree? I think she is great. Although her Polish could be better

[@annagorska1229]

@@jezalb2710 Jest wystarczająco dobry :-)

[@jacktenrec472]

@@jezalb2710 LOL why are you giving her hard time for speaking ( according to you ) insufficient polish?? LMFAO

[@jezalb2710]

@@jacktenrec472 oh no, her Polish is sufficient, just could be better.

[@jezalb2710]

@@jacktenrec472 i am not giving her a hard time.

[@tonyholmes962]

Ann App is a rocks. Sharp rock diamond insight.

[@happydays4302]

Fantastic interview. Lovely to hear respectful discourse between differing standpoints and experiences. Both so informative. Thank you.

[@yanaa3857]

Спасибо за интервью на английском, нашла себе интересное аудирование наконец)

[@Nickauboutte]

Great interview! What is the title of Anne's 2014 article you mention at the outset?

[@jezalb2710]

Anne Appletree is great, as always. Thank you

[@christopherspavins9250]

Watching this August 1st and this discussion is still resourceful and important analysis.

[@wernertognetti5956]

Thanks for this interview.

[@JurajGrossmann]

Hello Mikhail, kudos to you ability to get important thinkers invited to speak on your platform and present it on youtube. After watching several of your vidjos, I see you are looking for improvement - with the laptop/smartphone. There is an echo while you are speaking in a glass room which doesn't have any distracting obstacles around. It seems to be very good for a product presentation, still I think the "speaking heards" content should be about audible quality. Keep improving - you are potention to grow your channel to very good numbers. I am kind of missing your background in the channel description - you seem to be very educated and outspoken.

[@pulse9488]

after le lost war of 1870 with Prussia France lost Alsace and Lorraine. But since then it was teached in each school that France had to get back those two area. it is true that you can feel it in Germany. But don't forget the will to get back those two "departement" was one big reason for the french to fight world war one.

[@minaguta4147]

Anne always has the best insights and analysis.

[@helenajaksic2009]

she is a warmonger

[@dargeo1406]

UN should have done something about Putin’s aggression on Chechnya, Dransdnistria, Abkhazia, Syria. Who will take responsibility for the west ignoring his crimes?

[@micumatrix]

In Syria You would also then need to spill out the role of the Saudi’s and Quatar to help people founding IS. Also the one of Turkey, etc. There so many actors there that you can get dizzy.

[@yb900]

что за музыка?

[@henriikkak2091]

9:00 This is gold

[@pavelsilbermann2084]

Великие люди кричат глухим.

[@jamesmilichich6693]

I thought we dropped the ball completely after the collapse of the USSR. Just completely. We stuck our heads in the mud. Sadly we turned our attention to Saddam Hussein and was fighting.

[@jamesmilichich6693]

War fighting.

[@gogudelagaze1585]

It would've been hopeless anyway. The mega corruption that plundered the country and ensured the FSB would get rule of the country stems from the mentality of the common people. The exact same thing happened in every eastern European country. 50 years under "communism" severely changed how people interact with society - it's a winner take all, no holds barred thing. The only real way to avoid the current state would've been to get involved to change the mindset of the people. And if you think that wouldn't have gotten the same or worse amount of pushback, good luck...

[@manuelmanuel9248]

How about not hoisting Nato on the Russian border. That would habe made preparations unnecessary

[@j.obrien4990]

The Ireland analogy is not correct, the English in northern Ireland were given a special role, and allowed partition Ireland leading the troubles that still haunt Ireland.

[@user-oc6dh2yp2w]

The Troubles have ended in 1998 with the Good Friday accords.

[@j.obrien4990]

@@user-oc6dh2yp2w the Good Friday Accords have led to great progress and have been very successful. But there are still issues as demonstrated by Unionist vs Nationist parties dominating politics especially amongst older voters.

[@user-oc6dh2yp2w]

@@j.obrien4990 The latest news is the election of Michelle O'Neil from Sinn Fein as the first minister of Northern Ireland. A historic event.

[@jacktenrec472]

didn't the Russian came up with their own Marshall plan? Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov rejected the Marshall Plan (1947), proposing instead the Molotov Plan

[@jamesmilichich6693]

Ah ! I’m listening as I’m typing…”what if…what if…”

[@jamesmiller2735]

What is she talking about that the trade relations between Germany and Poland is more important than the trade relations between Germany and Russia really.

[@potter275]

Anne Applebaum is amazing! Excellent interview! Regarding Russian leadership, we are dealing with a discrepancy in consciousness between how they deal with the world and the direction (more evolved and post colonial, post empire, pro international order) many want this world to be moving towards. Mikhail gets to the point particularly in his last question. It's so frustrating to be living through this revanchist, reactionary, very dangerous period when we need more cooperation and good will. The way Russians behave is deplorable.

[@helenajaksic2009]

Russia is acting with great restraint in face of the US aggression and provocations.

[@potter275]

@@helenajaksic2009 We see things completely differently. NATO never threatened Russia nor Putin. This is in Putin's mind, an insecurity about himself and Russia not being a superpower other than having nuclear weapons to threaten others. Putin provoked quite a lot before the US and NATO decided to help Ukraine in 2014- and then NATO did not enough to deter Putin either. The Eastern European former Soviet countries WANTED to join NATO for protection from real Russian revanchist threats- not imagined. NATO did not go after more members but acceded to them,, welcomed them and they qualified. NATO is for defense, NOT offense. Russian/Putin's restraint today is about fear of getting NATO really involved more than it is by just aiding Ukraine. That is his restraint-fear. Even so Putin constantly says he is at war with us that RUSSIA is the victim!!. His "restraint" is because he know of what will happen if he chooses desperate measures; it would be suicidal and he knows it. But he plays the game.This man wants Ukraine for his power. to survive--. not peace. But he keeps hoping that the West will give up, get tired of defending Ukraine. Putin has violated the world order of respecting sovereignty by his aggression and claiming another country. Thank you for reading.

[@carlwilson8859]

On giving Russia special treatment: They have the nuclear threat. If it weren't for that threat, NATO would have showed up in the air over Ukraine. It shows up the horror of nuclear weapons. The bombs dropped on Japan did not do as much destruction as the massive conventional bombing did but somehow the nuclear threat was so much more important. Now we are seeing matters more clearly. The US "won" the Cold War and Russia fell out of great power status. But it retained the nuclear threat and it is counting on that threat to give it a win in Ukraine.

[@gomey70]

Yeah I was surprised that wasn't mentioned.

[@lizannewhitlow1085]

My pea brain is exploding. Thank you. 💥💥💥

[@katmcg880]

Amazing insightful interview. Honest and open , especially the acknowledgment that Russia was actually allowed to do much more stuff compared to other ‘normal’ nations. So true and sad

[@jamesmilichich6693]

Read Beevor’s “Stalingrad.” Just like Mariupol.

[@jamesmilichich6693]

You didn’t read Solzhenitzen? (sic)

[@azzyyy734]

It's not a good idea to store firewood inside your house.

[@mango2005]

As a westerner, I think the West should be promoting democracy, but not always by force. However I do support arming Ukraine with whatever it needs. I am disappointed with how situational foreign policy has become in the West )especially the Trump wing of the Republican party, France still buying uranium from Russia for its nuclear plants, Germany still reluctant to send Taurus missiles though they have done the most in Europe for Ukraine), where trade and investment sometimes frustrates promoting democracy, especially in the Middle East, China, Russia. I do think Iraq was over-reach though. There was a bit more idealism in foreign policy in the 1990s but we we were too slow to intervene in Bosnia, but were more decisive in Kosovo. The war on terror provided Putin with cover to excuse his repression as part of clamping down on Chechnya, but also the free press and opposition parties (not the ones controlled by the Kremlin). Bush said "I looked in his eyes and saw a fellow soul". I think Bush has woken up to the reality of Putin now but too late.

[@monabur]

There is not going to be russian university in Vilnius for veeeeeery long time if ever. Until russia and its citisens face real historical facts and stop imperialism and terorrism. Greetings from Lithuania.

[@calokraine5901]

maybe .. who nows how long lithuania has? it is a pretty aggressive lap dog country nowadays

[@juligrlee556]

China, the US, Poland, France, the Balkans, the Baltics, Finland, and India should cooperate to partition the Russian Federation into a dozen or so liberated and independent social democracies with strong unique economies that contribute to the world civilization and not to war.

[@clydecessna737]

Anthony Beevor is a terrible author; he takes earlier books and eliminates most the facts and adds waffle. His book "Armageddon" is a poor shadow of Cornelius Ryan's book "The Last Battle" on the same subject of the fall of Berlin.

[@charlesbeaudry3263]

I don't think that preventing the Ukraine war was a sustainable concept. In a way Russia had to invade and Russia and needs to lose the war because only that will allow Russia to examine its imperialistic ambitions.

[@christinemcclymont269]

Similar thoughts to those of Tim Snyder

[@charlesbeaudry3263]

@@christinemcclymont269 Yes, I kind of was impressed by his argument. We see this all the time. Just look at US and the number of politicians and pundits who truly assign a "manifest destiny" to the US. Think about the implications. This attitude, if not checked, can lead to some pretty nasty business. Even with all the checks, the US track record overseas is pretty dismal. However as the Worlds Cop, with its reserve currency and hence subsidized military, the US did create "freedom of navigation" for all. It is only considering the likely alternatives to that strategic condition and when looking at the history of imperialistic interventions that we see the US's actions, historically in context. I prefer a world dominated by the fools of "manifest destiny" in Washington than one dominated by China or Russia, neither of which have much in terms of "checks". In both those cases, without a world cop they would be likely to reproduce the situation in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

[@christinemcclymont269]

Charles Beaudry on the same page as you.

[@charlesbeaudry3263]

@@christinemcclymont269 :-)

[@timgerk3262]

Tim Snyder has also said that it is poor history to say that current conditions were *necessary*. I don't believe he's a Marxist or Hegelian that relies on predetermination of events. Rather, as Anne says here, choices were made in 1991-1994 that reinforced a self-image of the new ruling class of Russia that have become a missed opportunity. As a survivor of the Bush 41, Clinton, Bush 43 era, there was so much thoughtless triumphalism that (rather than it being obvious from the start or in hindsight) the present now *just makes sense*. Having left the newborn Russian Federation to sink or swim, and the enduring Cold War prejudices in the west, and the unresolved issue of nuclear weapons, and the distorting international power of oligarchs' wealth,... This is where that leads.

[@celestialteapot309]

'climate change will not affect us until far off into the future,' what planet is this woman on?

[@jburt56]

Dang, we could have made Russia OUR client state! Could have locked down the entire Northern Hemisphere but no. . . .

[@helenajaksic2009]

Bravo Mikhail Zyger for skillfully exposing Anne Applebaum's bias against Russia. This is HER VERSION OF HISTORY.

[@user-oc6dh2yp2w]

What a silly thing to say. Russia is a cruel dictatorship that oppresses its own people. Being against the Russian state and Russian imperialim does not mean being against the Russian people. Russians are the victims of their own state, their own governnent.

[@danilodjurdjevic7436]

.

[@nouriaasrorova8986]

Army, no one needs your opinion on this matter, your opinion is nothing.

[@helenajaksic2009]

We don't think the US should be allowed to rule the EU and a myriad of other countries. Is she denying US hegemony?

[@jamesmilichich6693]

High tech companies…Renam Facebook “Volkische Beobachter,” and Apple “Angriff.”

[@tatjanasmelova7332]

Such conical lie about Red Army!

[@nouriaasrorova8986]

Listen, it is not your business! Mind your own business

[@olgaltey3278]

Anne is completely out of her mind, she needs to invent less about the Ukrainian Holodomor and everything will be fine. But judging by the expansion of emotions - it's too late

[@andreme7326]

She's a reputable scholar, and you're just an Olga who got her feelings hurt by listening to an intelligent person. Learning history is important, Olga, although sometimes unpleasant.

[@charlesbeaudry3263]

Olga have you read Timothy Snyder's book "The Bloodlands"? The Holodomor is a real thing and only Russian propagandists deny it and nobody else.

[@olgaltey3278]

@@charlesbeaudry3263 i read him, an Conquest, and Applebaum, and australian Shila Fitzgerald +Stephen Wheatcroft,, and Hiroaki Kuromiya. And even ukranian nationalist Oun scholars. So many different views! Especially that in 1932 famine happend in 4 regions of the USSR: Ukraine, Kazakhstan(40% population died), Caucasian region and Kuban. My own grandfather was an orthan becouse whole family died, but my grandmother in a city did not affected by starvation. The main point here- it was not ethnic cleansing of ukranian nation by Bolsheviks as some scholars want to.push. Especially do not trust Snyder who takes rewards from Chrystya Freeman.

[@charlesbeaudry3263]

@@olgaltey3278 it was not ethnic cleasing and nobody except western propagandists are saying that. No, the point however is that it was not ethnic Russians who paid the price of Stalin's industrialization policy. It is just that those who paid the cost were mostly non-Russians.

[@olgaltey3278]

@@charlesbeaudry3263 well, russians had starvation twice. In 1922 and later - some regions in 1933. So i disagree on that point. My opinion that agressive industrialisation, bad management and supression of peasants as a weak class which does not want accept communist idea. I must add that i m also not that against Snyder. I love his points about Bandera Oun and revolutionary idea about Russian language in Ukraine.