Thinking About Christ Will Shatter Your Conception of Time | Fr. Stephen De Young & Jonathan Pageau

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[@Jacob011]

This got me thinking: basically then the story of salvation is a feature of reality, as it were.

[@easymentality]

As patterned in the Creation Account, where the premordial, uninhabitable and dead "nothing" was raised into "paradise." The very creation of this world is an image of salvation, so calling "salvation" a feature seems spot on.

[@sinfulyetsaved]

Why would you want to be anything other than orthodox? The depth and beauty of God is beyond my own comprehension.

[@Imitatechrist]

Catholic art is stunning. I think about this we can agree.)

[@fender97]

John 1 The Word Became Flesh 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it. The Word is Jesus. God knows exactly what it's like to be a man, because he died on the cross for our sins so we could be saved. We have no idea what it's like to be God, though I think beyond the supernatural wouldn't be enough. God created the Heavens and the Earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Remember that He spoke creation into existence through The Word, and did it all while knowing He would have to send His only begotten Son to die and redeem us undeserving sinners from God's wrath. Praise be to Our Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ - The Lion of Judah and Lamb of God, the only one who is worthy.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

Christians need to better live in the mystery. By that I mean hard philosophical definitions and conclusions can cause as many problems as they solve. I'm convinced every orthodox Catholic doctrine is true in some way, but by the time one really breaks things down into near positivistic terms, one is likely to have missed the meaning of the doctrine. I think Christians grow closer in Truth when we remember that our disputes are often more about the best way to describe an ineffable reality than about the reality itself. Thank God for doctrines keeping us from heresy, but the devil continues to find ways to keep us fighting.

[@josephtravers777]

Was discussing this with an atheist recently, Father. There is commonality with Fundamentalists, in that both deal strictly in temporal logic, as described by Fr. Stephen. Always enjoy your comments, God bless

[@metaspacecrownedbytime4579]

I am always suspicious when someone says " Christians need to". Evan God does not say this.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@@metaspacecrownedbytime4579 I don't mean it as another doctrine to pile on. I mean that Christians of all stripes would be best served by... Or to put it another way, we can obey Christ easier if we...

[@john-paulgies4313]

@@metaspacecrownedbytime4579 John 15:12

[@john-paulgies4313]

"I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother. For the zeal of thy house hath eaten me up: and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me." East and West, apart from the only real substantial disagreement regarding the primacy of Peter, are each overzealous to keep the Eighth Commandment at the expense of the Fifth.

[@Pietrosavr]

There is another view under which it is sin that creates time. When you sin you tend to experience pleasure in the short term and then suffering comes later. But if we lived according to the will of God we would live in constant bliss, there would be no before and after. If you procrastinate you have to calculate the exact times you will do something to make sure everything is done on time, if you do things when you are supposed to do them then you don't need to do any of that, time is of no importance, because everything is already done.

[@reverie4632]

No time is not beyond time

[@reverie4632]

Eternity has time Infinity has finitude Logos became flesh

[@Charles3x7]

Space and time are inversely related in perception. They are two forms of the same substance and one cannot fully experience time while fully experiencing space. One becomes the food for the other.

[@reverie4632]

@@Charles3x7 how can you experience time without space?

[@Charles3x7]

By closing your eyes. Count to thirty slowly.

[@simonfigenschau9663]

How unbelievably intelligent and beautiful. So grateful for you both!

[@brotherbroseph1416]

Some animals mourn their dead. It’s so sad and beautiful.

[@brotherbroseph1416]

@John because sadness reflects loss and that reflects a common bond founded upon an emotional dynamic. A mother or father losing their children is sad no matter what. Even for animals.

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@brotherbroseph1416 depends on the animal. A very very small number might feel some kind of sadness. Dolphins and Penguins come to mind, maybe dogs. But not even apes really do

[@jezuzjuize]

christ was creating on the cross amen, he’s always alpha and omega. taking our death and turning it into life. let there be light…

[@ruthhill2010]

WOW. Beautiful ✨ Makes me fall in love with Jesus all over again ❤

[@nikkingman]

"fall in love" - how satan worshippers describe "love"

[@Alex-C-02]

@@nikkingman ur lame lmao

[@tedclemens4093]

“Animals have a different concept of time.” Probably true. But the amputee dog instantly adapting to three legs isn’t so much an example of the time difference from humans as it is about the the human distinctive that evaluates good and evil. So a dog instantly discerns only three legs to walk with and proceeds. But people will complicate the loss of a leg with their additional evaluation of “this is bad-I don’t like it.”

[@Thedisciplemike]

Animals don't hold grudges either lol

[@Tyler_W]

@Disciple Mike that's definitely not true. Maybe not all animals do, but some are absolutely capable of holding grudges. Just off the top of my head, chimpanzees, fir example, have a very ruthless and exacting sense of fairness, and when it's violated and they feel slighted, they can be brutally petty creatures with horrific consequences. Chimps are basically pure id. You do not mess around with chimps. Even the pettiest of grievances have gotten competitive chimp tribes viciously massacred in the wild, and not just killed, but savagely tortured too. Even dogs, although infinitely more forgiving than chimps, are also arguably capable of holding grudges of some kind. There are definitely dogs I I have known who have held some level of prejudice against certain groups of people (most often men, small children, blacks and Latinos in my experience) due to regular bad experiences with them. A dog can certainly and often very easily forgive you for wronging it, but there can be a point at which you've completely broken the animal's trust and good will toward you with repeated and conssitent mistreatment.

[@the2ndcoming135]

“What time is it in heaven right now?”💀

[@tedclemens4093]

@@Tyler_W indeed. But is it a grudge, or conditioned behavior? Outwardly they look the same. And certainly grudges begin with conditioned behavior. Like staying away from (or growling at) the unpleasant. (Maybe that’s all that grudges really are?)

[@MarketAnalysisBroadcast]

Catholics and orthodox needs to start debating with Muslims in their own language in their own term We need to evangelise in Arabic

[@lucduchien]

If the Cross is the foundation of the world, it makes sense that Eph. 1:4 says we were chosen since BEFORE the foundation of the world, and why Rev. 13:8 talks of the Lamb that was slain FROM the foundation of the world. We experience time like a wave in the ocean, things rise into the world and things disappear from the world "behind" us. The future is a projection, and it can be tempting to consider "eternity" or "heaven" to be, somehow, at the end of the future, but the end of the future is just when the wave has reached the end if its usefulness, when time ceases to lift the consciousness of the earth. What we call the present is the point of the wave that reaches up to heaven for an instant, but is replaced with another present. In fact, as Augustine says, the present is an illusion because the instant it becomes the present, it is gone. To think that God sees time the same way is a misunderstanding. Things to not "rise" to his consciousness and then "fall" out of his consciousness. All things are present to him. The movement from Adam to Christ is not a progressive movement, as if it develops over the centuries. It is more of a vertical movement from death to life, almost spatial, like the excavation of a sunken ship which is remodeled to be an airship. (A metaphor we imagine happening in "time", but if you can just consider all of time as a single movement of light to darkness and then darkness to light, I think it will help. We see night and day repeat again and again from our perspective, but the eternal night and day is not repetitive, as if it happens in time.) For us, there is nothing wrong with this perception of time, because it helps us to understand HOW the Kingdom of God is eternal. The Lord descends, not FROM the wave but INTO the wave and DOWN below the wave, INTO the sunken parts. The Kingdom rises, but it doesn't fall. It remains above the crest of the wave, out of sight to those of us still riding the crest. In a strange way, the PAST is closer to eternity than the present, because it has already sunk, and in a way, it has already risen, though out of our consciousness. There is no going back. The eternal Word has become flesh. The everlasting Lord has died and has resurrected. The Kingdom is not going anywhere. Human consciousness will never be rid of him. His commandments will never be superseded. The depths can never hold the dead. The dust of the ruins of humanity have been gathered, and the Spirit of God blows into the dust and Man is renewed. Glory be to God.

[@knowpain743]

So your last paragraph is basically saying this is all we have. This life and nothing more will come to it because it is “eternal” as our time going forward from life to death will just occur again but not “again” just always was happening and will continue to happen. Do you realize how many times I have spoke to you? You will die again like I will and I will meet you once more but its always now.

[@lucduchien]

@@knowpain743 I did not say the present is the eternal though. I said it brushes up against the eternal. But the eternal is much much higher than the present. I'm merely suggesting to think of the eternal as in the "future". Think of it as in every moment equally, yet far far above any individual moment in time. We are still in a state capable of change, which means repentance, rebellion, regeneration, and degeneration are all truly possible right now. There is no erasing any moment in the past, but the quality of the past can be redefined as long as there is time. C.S. Lewis said it well when he said that, for those in heaven, this world, if looked back upon, will be remembered as heaven, even the most painful suffering of it. But from the perspective of someone in hell, this world will be remembered as an extension of hell, even the most intense pleasures of it. Each will be able to say, I've only ever known heaven, or I've only ever known hell.

[@knowpain743]

@@lucduchien The state of mind. I don’t have to come to “God” of the bible. Its just the thought of “never give up”, “forgive yourself”, “move on”, “be tough”. I can do all that without “God”. If you avoid trouble, it usually wont be found. Being gay for example doesn’t cause anymore trouble than being straight but in-fact, being straight can lead to even more trouble because your involving other lives than just yourself.

[@siruristtheturtle1289]

@@knowpain743 That is perfect, but the aim and purpose of christianity is not to make "good people" or to "avoid troubles". It is not an overtly ellaborate moral message, but a tale that operates within an specific metaphysical framework in which humanity is fallen. If christianity is true (and I believe so), then a person being moral, while desirable and good, it is not at all the final purpose. The real aim is union with God throught the person of Christ. "being gay for example doesn't cause anymore trouble" I won't judge gay people and I know many who are genuinely smart, good persons, but there is no act that exists merely in a bubble. Homosexuality in the context of traditional christianity is not forbidden as much as homossexual acts are, because said acts harm the social fabric and may also produce illness. More important, because within the christian worldview sexuality was made to allow the union between the male and the female, and of course as a result reproduction, thus homosexual acts would be a subversion of said purpose. It is a complicated issue and I rather not judge, but again, it is not merely a prohibition out of pleasure or taste, but a natural result of christianity being teleological.

[@knowpain743]

@@siruristtheturtle1289 Its harms the social fabric? I have experience and it does not. I have seen and it does not. Care to explain? Produce illness? What do you mean? They don’t create kids therefore no illness is passed, they can get an illness if they are not careful, just how straights can get all illness if not careful but they have one extra thing to worry about that gays don’t. Kids. Which can kill a mother and nearly many of them nearly die because of it. As far as reproduction goes, life is not about making kids. You can make it out to be that way but thats you. Thats not reality. You do understand that their is a balance in life? If the world had nothing but straights, you will cause yourself to go extinct in many ways than one. Gays prevent us from reaching such dangerous levels. We are creating more than we can handle and poverty is a big result. You can sit there all day long and say how not normal it is but you fail to understand love as many people today don’t understand what that actually is. You say you must be with a man and woman but that’s specifically sex based and thats not how love works. Straight christian men absolutely have lust in their hearts towards their females and I dont need to hear about my lust when your guilty of it too. Unless you pansexual, you will always lust first. We all typically do. Its in our nature because without lust there is no mating. Why do you think all species act that way? They didn’t eat the fruit and yet they do the same things we do. Its like telling a dog to eat vegetables only. Thats not what it was created to do. If sins were really sins then they wouldn’t be in nature because nature reflects who God is. Obviously because you people claim “just look around bro”. Ok, I did, I see both light and darkness. The God of both because that is what makes it all powerful and all knowing but your silly book it does not care for. Its creates and sets this universe in motion. There is enjoyment in life without the other to make something out of it. Do you think God is dumb to create the snake? No. He make the fruit pleasing, he put it in reach, he points it out, he creates the snake to further his process of temptation. God has a plan right? Ok then, this is the plan. Satan is part of his plan. If you read your book you will see that satan has never done anything that God didn’t want to happen. Satan has only touched a few people and Job is one but God approved of it. God doesn’t want his hands dirty, so like a mob boss, he has his people do it for him, making his hands red free. I can understand and see through most of the bs. If a human is bad for doing what we think is bad but then God does what we consider evil, then he must be really bad for doing it. If a God is going to be worse than my mother, I refuse to believe that a Good God of all knowing will burn everyone for eternity. That’s completely evil and torture. You will never ever make me believe that sh*t is ok to do. He created them, he can simple delete them. Torture does nothing. Hell is not a punishment, its torture. A punishment is something that is temporary to make a fix. To fine tune a person. Not hell. Its torture. No being of goodness would ever create such a place for something HE made happen. The thing about future is that there is only one. If every little thing lead up to the choice, the same choice will be made. God is the only one in control so if he wanted to see a different choice, then he should have slightly messed with the fabric of space and time to make such a change. So either he has a plan and is all knowing and wanted everything to happen. Or he isn’t and we really do have freewill but he sowed, so he will reap and that doesn’t make him all knowing or all powerful. Satan is only an asset to God.

[@depurasangre86]

The disciples said to Jesus: Tell us how our end will be. Jesus said: Since you have discovered the beginning, why do you seek the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who shall stand at the beginning (in the beginning), and he shall know the end, and shall not taste death.

[@georgepollos8695]

In John you see Jesus spit in the ground, make clay, and make eyes for the man blind from birth (he had no eyes) so we get to see Jesus creating even in New Testament

[@TinaHyde]

Truth! I’m assuming the loaves & fishes count as ‘created’ too? And really, in the case of all healings, too, but at a cellular level?

[@cadenorris4009]

He didn't make eyes, he fixed his eyes

[@MirthMama]

So on spot! Thank you two! ❤

[@kevinh2345]

This helps me a lot, because these are things I've pondered but couldn't articulate in a satisfactory manner. I knew the strict chronological model as I understand simple things like I see around me wasn't working in my understanding.

[@kevinfarrell9678]

My oh my, I love these two!

[@ryrocks9487]

Absolute powerhouse, these two.

[@youbetyourwrasse]

I think Time was created at the fall, so we would have a space in which to move in order to gain the knowledge of good and evil. When we no longer need the space in order to enact change, Time will end and Eternity for us will begin. We will be as Christ, immutable in our perfection.

[@youbetyourwrasse]

Calvinists seem to find the Eucharist disgusting and reprehensible, not impossible. When I was a Calvinist, I would listen in HORROR as RC Sproul talked about people killing Christ again so they could eat him. Like cannibals. I never heard one say "Jesus is in heaven. so it's not possible." Just how gross people can be to want to raise our Dear Lord in order to sacrifice Him AGAIN. Like once wasn't enough. Disgusting and cruel! People fear what they do not understand. And as long as they are in the world trying to understand it like the world, they will not see truth and be afraid. But Understanding is raining down from heaven now like morning dew .. slowly .. so the people do not know they are wet until they are swimming.

[@cliffordduhh45]

Jonathan touched on this in previous videos. Happy to see some more discussion on the matter.

[@MattisWell.20]

God-in-Christ doesn’t change when He becomes human, because in becoming human (and not just a human, but becoming a human who enters into the death of all deaths on behalf of all, transforming death from the inside out), He reveals everything that it means to be God.

[@Phariseehunter]

You got it back to front. He or she dies to individuality and so is self-transcendent, a transparent channel of divine illumination of the Holy Spirit Christ is not a 'man', only looks as a man to an individual mind observing but the body in view is really dissociated from the awareness illuminating through purely loving, extremely highly focused awareness.

[@etheretherether]

Docticism was refuted in the first couple centuries, with very thorough arguments from Paul, Iranaeaus, and Athanasius. It was reaffirmed that the God-Man Christ was not an illusion by the Cappadoceans, Maximos The Confessor, Paloma’s, and Gregory of Nyssa. I highly recommend reading Maximos the Confessors “The cosmic mystery of Christ.” The OP didn’t have it back to front, he had it exactly right.

[@etheretherether]

Just another thought. God can’t experience self-transcendence in the way you describe. There’s no state beyond him to transcend to. This would imply that God was a created being and would just move the problem upward a rung. What God DOES do is experience an eternal and perfect state of COMMUNION and fellowship as the Trinity.

[@MrPanchoak]

I was a good Baptist boy. And realized what Jesus was saying when he said " Before Abraham was, I Am." That realization terrified me for months. I thought I'd committed heresy beyond escape.

[@SlaveofGod]

But Baptists are Trinitarian?

[@MrPanchoak]

@@SlaveofGod that is true. But their understanding of the Holy Trinity is never really taught beyond basic proof texts. The idea of eternal procession is completely foreign. This is primarily because they, and most protestants that I know of, never consider what the definition of eternity is. Our Lord when made the above statement was claiming to be omnipresent not only physically, but also throughout infinity. This is why we Orthodox can partake of communion with the Apostles themselves. Because we enter into his infinite presence. We don't actually commune each time anew, but we enter together with our Lord's eternal presence.

[@bepreparedforwhatscoming4975]

@@MrPanchoak don't orthodox churches require you to take an oath with your allegiance to Constantine? Didn't jesus forbid oaths?

[@bepreparedforwhatscoming4975]

@@MrPanchoak read around Matt 5:37

[@theleastartic]

@5:46 best explanation of this I've ever encountered - tysm!!

[@shamanic_nostalgia]

Christ was the Sun before he became Jesus.

[@Hoi4o]

The more I learn about Christian theology, the more I am starting to think that a good case can be made that pondering about time and space in order to understand God's incarnation is what gave the beginning of astro physics and science fiction. The idea and understanding of time itself that modern people have today is a purely Christian idea. Most other ancient people viewed time as an endless cycle on a cosmic scale, it was Christianity that introduced the concept of a line with a starting point and a finite ending point.

[@iambored2006]

Judaism, actually.

[@battlereadyarmour2362]

Genesis 1:26 KJV - And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1 Peter 1:19-21 KJV - ¹⁹ But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: ²⁰ Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, ²¹ Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Definitely makes sense Jesus was before the world and out of our time realm conception. Thank you for making this make better sense to me, praise God for giving us wisdom and understanding when we have none or very little. 🙏🔥

[@fisherstrong6]

This touches on my understanding of eschatology, which is a preterist/idealist view.

[@Ggdivhjkjl]

As God is everywhere, He has no side. The "right hand" refers to the position of authority. What St Stephen saw was Christ in the place of God, holding divine authority.

[@bepreparedforwhatscoming4975]

According to who? You can't just make up your own decisions of words..

[@tretaylor1230]

Great title

[@dr.scorpiopus8064]

Great conversation.. Great content..

[@josephbrandenburg4373]

Part of the difficulty entailed in workding out how God relates to time... is that we don't even really understand our own relation to time. Our best scientific model tells us that time is relativistic, but bases time in the speed of light (movement over time)! It's very hard to understand time from within it, let alone from without!

[@azraellordluciferavontehop1650]

a time glass that holds the "future" is pouring out the negative time of this world through a filter at the bottom that holds the pass of good dream which are memories also everybody future and past going to change. The present it's in the middle of the glass. My gift to my daughter for Christmas.

[@Tropdop]

So Christ’s death and resurrection is paradise, balancing time and space in the same way, enabling us to live in accord with God. Did the fall ever happen? Was paradise ever lost?

[@spiritedtoday]

It's very easy for me to grasp these concepts as I view the everlasting gospel, primarily because if the world was made through Christ, it means we must beg the question - what was Jesus doing on the Sabbath in His death and burial? I believe it was Genesis that was happening during those dark hours.

[@negrodamus521]

God is Time

[@MarketAnalysisBroadcast]

We need to start evangelising in Arabic

[@TRLgoodvibesdotcom]

I love this guys laugh

[@mjs397]

All I can say is the title of this video is true.

[@biffkline8771]

There is no daylight savings time in heaven

[@nolangimpel39]

Praise the Lord!

[@ternak001]

Heaven is only daylight, there’s no night in heaven!

[@mattlaing]

Right? Right!

[@johnscott7937]

Interesting conversation. In regard to 'time', I'm not sure how we measure that biblically, in the Genesis creation story specifically and here is why. The sun and moon which we use to measure our time were created on the 4th day; but, that means there were "days" before a sun and moon cycle existed, and day and night existed before them (light and darkness). John Lennox has a book on this called " Seven Days that Divide the World: The Beginning According to Genesis and Science" - very interesting book that explores multiple theories.

[@josephtravers777]

Just reading King David's reflections on this, this morning. Peterson would call this synchronicity. ;^)

[@azraellordluciferavontehop1650]

Yes people still need Joel Osteen said Avonte Martell Hopson( Lucifer Hopsin) an Jesus Hopson(Hopsin). Lucifer was before Jesus, until scripture said Jesus was at the right hand of the evil Father that die before Lucifer And God knew what hit God a death note from a spiritual shot from a blessed 38 special 5 barrel revolver. This is why you don't jump through time or omnitime, but good always prevail from greatness. Now Lucifer can be "like the most HIGH", remember that Bible story, the end.

[@sethtrey]

Try this on: Christ's life was the time God learned how to be a temporal and spatially limited Spiritual being ("man"). He learned how to communicate to man, how to forgive (by understanding our plight from the inside), and what it is like to obey (so He could write us something to obey.) He experienced temptation, fear, physical pain, and all sorts of other things God couldn't know. Above all, He ezperienced what it was like to be separated from God, and He still committed His spirit to God before He died. These are all limited perspectives that God would have not known otherwise, but because He learned them ~33 AD, He has known them forever.

[@BrotherDuncanGM]

The Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world is King!

[@josetrevino6674]

Hosea 13:7-16 7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them: 8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them. 9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help. 10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? 11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath. 12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. 13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children. 14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. 15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the Lord shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels. 16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

[@Fruity_White]

Stephen Wolfram needs to talk to you about this!!!

[@SpiritualResetTarot]

"time is a "space race"" - words of jesus

[@the2ndcoming135]

Psalm 26:6((G.N.T.))✝️

[@LudiusQuassas]

Interesting comment on angels, I usually wonder why things look fallen even though apparently their representative angels aren't.

[@azraellordluciferavontehop1650]

Almighty God put me on this earth (but I fail original God missions to have no weaknesses) like telling my child to save the world from Omni Almighty powers of never being a child himself, or saving your child from a sacrifice when you can just snap your fingers and be done with it Almighty powers.

[@MartinPeel]

God is always child and adult, can do anything and not do what is wanted or not wanted. God allowed the sacrifice to nearly happen, and others to happen as was part of the plan of infinite eternity.

[@azraellordluciferavontehop1650]

Wishes work faster if there for someone like Jesus no Christ indeeds

[@azraellordluciferavontehop1650]

EVILived on this planet long enough said acronym of the B.I.B.L.E. and HOLY words can save you Jesus Christ believers who is beyond the DEVIL sin because you can't live like Jesus or the Devil, the lust after beautiful women only. Disciples or followers made it worst for Jesus and the Devil, like the 3rd temptation of the Devil ment Lucifer rules this world as Allah or ALLAH not Jesus. But Jesus had his on problems with his disciples or apostles who hide from their teacher as the women was strong enough to cry for Jesus safety as Peter live like a demon because Jesus curse Peter from the deja vu of Peter lying on Jesus, now not once in the HOLY BIBLE did Lucifer never Lie on Jesus or cursing him, yet Peter hang his self up side down and became evil because of it.

[@azraellordluciferavontehop1650]

Jesus took over God place in the beginning so all Angels are safe from hell.

[@sirdaniel159]

Infinite seem's more accurate than eternal

[@pilesthedonkey]

What time you in it depends on.

[@joellumsden5992]

Shatter my conception of time, how violent, how traumatizing!

[@brianshoemaker7645]

I’ve thought about these things since childhood

[@AntiVegan]

Interesting

[@riiko92]

Process theology helps. David Ray Griffin is a good one.

[@keithjohnsonYT]

Fractals are cool…Like shadows on the wall.

[@celathianaaron6057]

❤️

[@bepreparedforwhatscoming4975]

Just read Psalms 110:1. Jesus was sent into the world, create enemies, and then go back to heaven, with his enemies under his feet. This matches with Dan 7:13-14 and Acts during the stoning of Stephen

[@knowpain743]

I am everywhere and all things created. I am blue, black, green, white and nothing. I am above and below. I am good and evil. I am God. Always have and always will be. All of you are but pieces of the MIND of God in which we “live” in. I am the beginning and the end. We will do this again, I promise you.

[@fisherstrong6]

I see things as heaven and hell, as a temporary spiritual realm until the resurrection which would be “the end” but also the beginning, lol I guess that would make me someone who doesn’t necessarily believe in eternal hellfire, because eternity is only for those in Christ

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

How does the conception of time and presence discussed here work alongside with what scripture says about pentecost? There it seems we have the Holy Spirit of God coming down in a specific way at a specific time. The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world... but the spirit was not present among us before 35 AD (or thereabouts)?

[@vroomvroomcarnong]

What does Jonathan think of the other translation of Revelation 13:8 where certain scholars believe “before the foundation of the world” refers to the names being written down rather than the slain lamb?

[@yourkingdomcomeyourwillbedone]

Time is literally measured from the time of Christ's birth. It's currently 2022 years after he was born.

[@jeremybridges6015]

Christ is probably on the cross “right now”

[@youtubebane7036]

The difference between material and Spiritual Beings especially gods is the fact that God experiences Infinity as a completed Infinity meaning it is done so it is counted as one or is zero. Us on the other hand are stuck within the infinity so it is not completed meaning there is always one more day are one more mile or one more thing to count and it can never be completed. I don't know if that helps you to think about it but that is the truth of it. That is the only reason you can say that God created the creation but is not part of it. When in fact the creation is God. If only God's mind since that's the only thing there is

[@josepilimperatore3079]

The time of the parousia of the Kingdom of God should be thought of the same way?

[@dystopian-future]

does that mean that if we go to heaven after death, we also will be outside of time and space that we experience here on earth?

[@kiefhouse]

We are never in contact with, or in discussion about, anything other than the self. Is there anything more important than this fundamental truth?

[@johnworldwideweber9687]

Time zone NOW

[@holla_j]

I think it all starts and ends literally with the "narrative" we tell ourselves. The narrative you hold in your mind influences tremendously the way you interpret events. We all want a consistent narrative. Something that makes sense. From the time history was recorded, we needed a narrative. Of course you need context and things like that. A central narrative that is positive can bring people together. Too many ideas just creates information overload, one of our biggest concerns.

[@danielpk6725]

there is a "detail" that's is grossly neglected, christianity includes in its own narrative its demise and apostasy: 1 Timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils..." Apocalypse13:7 "And the Beast was allowed to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. And (the Beast) was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation" I've notice that even Jonathan avoids talking about it, no one likes to talk about it, I guess because it's a dificult subject to deal with because it will put people into the mode: "well, I guess there is not much we can do about it", it also becomes a problem because christianity is very fractured with many branches all claim being "the true church"... for me a big part of the process to avercome this breakdown is to "go to sources" this means becoming familiar with the greek new testament, a great resource is at biblehub dot com/interlinear/john/1 dot htm the breakdown was unavoidable and it is meant to be there "from the beginning of time"...let's say "it's part of the Logos of creation", or as E.michael jones would put it: "is the hand of the Logos in history"... the only time I have seen Jonathan talk about it is in the video titled: "Interview for "Better Left Unsaid" Documentary" at 1:13:00 minute mark

[@NoName-xc6cg]

What I always wondered about was if there were similarities between Jesus and Mary such that someone would be able to tell that she is his mother

[@someguy4405]

I’ve always imagined that he would be extremely similar in appearance to his mother. The parts of Jesus inherited from God would be felt rather than seen.

[@NoName-xc6cg]

@@someguy4405 yeah same here

[@paulr5246]

my thoughts after watching return to a former inquiry; since the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world, connecting the origin of the world itself to the crucifixion, what is the relationship between His begetting here on earth (from the Theotokos) and His being begotten of the Father before all worlds? Its probably way beyond my pay grade, but I can't help but wonder.

[@TinaHyde]

Definitely above my present Orthodox XP level, too, but I’m curious to hear how the Father reconcile this (or not) as well.

[@Thedisciplemike]

Is the light of glory granted to us in and through the created soul of Christ or not? If the light of glory for beatitude is granted to us in and through the soul of Christ, then it seems that the incarnation of Christ is necessary for the beatitude of the angels and the beatitude of humans. If that is the case and if God willed to share His divine beatitude with angels and humans, then the incarnation would have happened whether there was sin or not. Creation is contingent. The Incarnation is contingent. However, might the creation be ordered to the incarnation? Is not creation created in and through and for Christ? So then, might the goal and purpose of creation be the incarnation and the sharing of beatitude with creatures? My mind is about to explode. These things are beyond my weak intellect. But I believe this is the correlation. The Son of God became man so that man may become sons of God. God loved the world, and so he sent us his Son. God loved the Son before all time. He was his first expression of love from eternity. He shares this expression to us in Christ at the incarnation. The begetting in the womb of Mary is the opening door for all of us to share the love that God was in for eternity past Sincerely, in Christ through Mary

[@fatalinsomn1a182]

Don't think about it too much, just exist and enjoy life and do some good in the world when you can. :P. Everything will be made known in time when its time comes.

[@sinfulyetsaved]

I used to think like you.. but to know God deeper is to know him intimately. To know him intimately means you are in a relationship with him just as a lover wants to know the love of his life and wants to know more about her, so by knowing God we can have a deeper love for who he is. Anything less is nothing more than puppy love.

[@johnseventhday9145]

@@sinfulyetsaved Amen exactly when people don't know God deeper they tend to fall for heresies amen amen

[@flearhcp]

How do i reconcile this with the difference between the pre risen Christ and the post resurrection Christ. What are the differences between these two .

[@semipelagianpangolin]

Humans exist in time and experience it in one direction, through the perception of sequential changes.

[@experiencemystique4982]

Question John 14:10 has à "more realistic approche...if you find the God within, obvious

[@jennablue87]

Who was the person Fr de young said is really good at explaining Gods omnipresence?

[@elsoil3387]

That was Dumitru Staniloae. I am reading a book of his now called The Holy Triniity - In the Beginning was Love. Quite dense but you know he is going somewhere profound...

[@dawnsicari384]

Quantum physics explains Genesis. ✝️🙏

[@Thedisciplemike]

Lol good one

[@sharonjackson5196]

"... the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world." Yikes, people. Context! This string of words skews the meaning. Here's the full verse: "All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life (of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world (Rev, 13:8)." I put this phrase in brackets in order to compare it Rev. 17:8: "They that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world." So what does "from/since the foundation of the world" refer to? Not to "lamb slain", but to the book written. IOW, since the foundation of the world, names have been added one by one to the book of life. The phrase "of the Lamb slain" qualifies/describes the book of life. So by comparing 13:8 with 17:8 we see that the meaning is rather "whose names have not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb that was slain. Read this way, rather than introducing a timeless sense, we see a very time-sequential process of history. Read as "Lamb slain before (!) the foundation of the world" cannot be squared with verse 17:8, but what is worse is that throws a monkey wrench in. It introduces a false understanding of the reality of time and Christ's relationship to it. Does God experience time differently from us? Certainly, but that does not mean that He does not experience it. Removing God from an experience of time does not make Him greater; it makes Him lesser.

[@andrewhinson4323]

We need to make sure we submit our philosophical musings before scripture. The eternal word was with God, and it was God, and all things were made through the Word. But the word BECAME flesh, then the flesh ascended into heaven as Christ had become man. The Logos wasn't flesh from eternity past. More over the scripture CLEARLY states that Christ set aside His glory, and humbled Himself so that we might be saved. God is not immutable, He is not a stone. God is an intrinsically relational being, being God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. As such, God can not change His essence, His Nature, but can act in time, can change His mind, can take on Flesh, and still be the same God today as He was yesterday. God CAN be everywhere, but God cannot be nowhere, because they are two mutually exclusive values. Null cannot be 0. One is a numerical value of no value. The other is an absence of value entirely.

[@RA4J]

Re angelic beings experiencing time differently: there must be SOME commonality here with these created beings and us otherwise 1Cor2:8 is odd. Unless my understanding of this passage and of “Satan entered Judas” is off? Having a hard time squaring Satan’s role here. Either he’s got some sort of relationship with time that limits his knowledge or he knew he was cooperating in God’s plan to defeat him by plotting to kill the Christ? Or something else?

[@Mika-El-]

Most of the wisest christians we find pre-nicene. Valentinus probably had the closest to perfect doctrine.

[@worldnotworld]

Read Jordan Daniel Wood. Fantastic young theologian; new book on Maximus forthcoming.

[@JimCampbell777]

Seeing two Christians discussing theology is equivalent to watching two children who believe in Santa Claus ... discussing what color is his underwear. This video demonstrates that concept to the highest order.

[@bobjoneswof]

Cringe

[@pilesthedonkey]

It depends on the way and fire and brimstone in your bank tomorrow morning

[@jibblecain]

So then Christ WAS praying to himself?

[@alexandre9222]

But isn't the argument of saint John of Damascus that the word of God should be co-eternal and associated with him, or else God would have existed at a moment in "time" without His word and that is totally absurd.

[@Ariel-qr2uw]

I am sorry to admit that it was very confusing for me and sounded dogmaticly :( unfortunatelly i do not catch up with this 'logic'/causality and feel like i am not alone in this.

[@cab9191]

Here is the mystery. Christ ascended unto the Father(s) grace by grace. He literally was the prince of peace unto his sheep and people. He was the King of Salem, even the great High Priest Melchezidek to whom Abraham paid tithes to. He saved his people temporally and thus ascended in his priesthood to save his people spiritually… Not his people only, but the power he ascended to allowed him to even call the lawless and fatherless (those not yet under covenant) Gentiles to Him. He is the only God unto us and the only means and name under which salvation is offered to us, for He has ascended unto the everlasting association of the Fathers forever… for such was the foreknowledge of the Father(s) from before the foundation of the world. He was indeed the Son, the only one deemed worthy, based on His previous mighty works to both ascend unto this mighty calling of High Priest and to be the rent covenant himself and open the door of the Holy of Holies unto others. Ponder and pray on this and allow the scriptures to open themselves unto you… God bless…

[@dannydeboer8821]

Say that to an atheist physicist, he'll be amazed

[@devanneschalkwyk9255]

I think these guys are very confusing. Maybe because I lack their understanding or perspective on the matter. However, what if Heaven does have time just like Earth, but the only difference is the beings there are not subject to time. Aging is not a result of time, but aging is a result of sin. We know we are eternal beings, that being our souls that The Lord created, yet we we are subject to aging outerly because of our flesh, but our inner man is being renewed day by day.

[@john-paulgies4313]

😏 So about that Purgatory thing....

[@johnodonoghue651]

right, right, right...couple of thoughts=== right, right, right... unlistenable

[@johnking7054]

Revelation 22:18 Now realize the Bible been rewritten dozens on times. Different authors as a clear example. Think the rest for y’all selfs.

[@clispybeace]

Tbh, I couldn't understand a word of this.

[@exxosetty]

This guys laugh drove me nuts. He would just laugh for no reason lol but other than that I really enjoyed the interview

[@micahwatz1148]

See what i would say about the Eucharist is when you say the bread is literally his body youre going against the entire concept of this discussion. Youre tying the spirit to time, space, matter. Which I believe is not the correct interpretation of the Lords supper. Its the spirit that gives life, not the flesh.

[@bobjoneswof]

This video is literally the exact explanation for the Eucharist.

[@dannyboi_663]

Believing in Christ will shatter your conception of critical thinking.

[@McRingil]

people had this idea for thousands of years (that God is timeless and unchanging) and physicists have theories of time which don`t regard it as a universal phenomenon (some follow general relativit in saying there`s no simultaneity, which is contradictory to quantum mechanics, and theoreticians of quantum mechanics put time as a consequence of entanglement) so it`s entirely reasonable to say that time does not apply to some things

[@dannyboi_663]

Time weird therefore Jesus? Come on dude.

[@McRingil]

@@dannyboi_663 It seemed to me and it`s very probable it seemed to other people too, that you`re implying the content of the video is uncritical and irrational, but now you`re behaving like your comment had nothing to do with it. But if you were making the argument, I attacked the unstated premise. Also this supposed deduction you`re putting in my mouth would obviously be unjustified.