This Metal Block Fixes A Common Electrical Panel Problem

[@layz_her2673]

I like the video but I strongly dislike your switch of placement of the ground bar. Originally you said to install above the sticker which is correct, however you installed it below that and, in my opinion. it is wayyy to close to the incoming A and B phase. That's my observation from an experienced electrician and inspector!

[@Roy-ij1wq]

I agree. I don't understand why he didn't just put the ground wires on one side and neutrals on the other and remove the bonding screw/bar. He was already disconnecting half of the wires. Why not just move them all?

[@markxx90]

@@Roy-ij1wq a lot of times they won’t all reach to the other side

[@MrKen59]

I agree with @Layz_her. Having a bar that close to the 200 amp service input is a disaster waiting to happen. Yikes - gives me the creeps looking at it.

[@bradleysmith6442]

Some panels actually have the holes there for ground bar installation already, not a big deal.

[@MrKen59]

@@bradleysmith6442 When I see ground bars that close to the main line, I think about the 200 amps at 240 volts available and the potential fault current if a short occurs. Obviously he disconnected the power at the entrance, but after he leaves, the potential is there for the customer add ground wires. I guess you have to make it work when there are little options.

[@jaybird4095]

I'm a DYIer, project engineer by profession. I've remodeled my house, passed all the inspections with flying colors. Always do my research. Because of your videos, I decided to pull the cover on my garage subpanel. Guess what, the grounds and neutrals are combined. Bought the parts this evening to separate them tomorrow. Thanks.

[@ruco13113]

You dont think that grounding bar is too close to the feeder?

[@kcuhc84]

Not for Harry Hazard electric. It's not only the price that is a shock.

[@SirBrass]

I'm not an electrician, but that ground bar seems way too close to the exposed hot conductors. Why not put the ground bar above the sticker like it appeared you were going to do at first?

[@erbewayne6868]

Closer spacing than hot bushes to neutral.

[@dirtyrotten2648]

Remove the neutral bonding jumper below main breaker. Install grounding jumper from left busbar to panel enclosure Separate grounds and neutrals. No ground bus install required. These sub panels are designed to be used on 3 wire or 4 wire applications.

[@williamshilling1862]

I wouldn't let hire them wire a dog house. Co has so many negative comments.

[@dirtyrotten2648]

@@williamshilling1862 Yeah. Pretty shady if you ask me.

[@williamshilling1862]

@@dirtyrotten2648 you never put a grd bar that close to the main lugs.

[@WeMe83]

@dirty rotten. Please explain to me how that’s shady unless your talking about the guy on the video who’s trying to ground the feed.

[@idmhead0160]

Unrelated note, DRI rules

[@bruceadler-9410]

Since this is an upgrade of an old installation which you didn't do yourself, before you did anything else you should have verified that you don't have a ground to neutral short somewhere downstream from this panel. Disconnect the 2/0 ground and neutral feeder cables and remove the bonding screw from the right neutral bus bar. That isolates everything on this load center from the system ground. Then pull off all the bare ground wires from the isolated left and right neutral bus bars. At that point your meter should show an open circuit between the neutral lug and both the panel ground and the bare 2/0 ground cable.

[@jamesstringer4211]

He did the work himself didn't you pay attention ?

[@bruceadler-9410]

​@@jamesstringer4211 I paid very good attention. Did you? He only did the upgrade to add the external disconnect. He did NOT do the original installation of the panel he's working on now. He's merely modifying it to separate the grounds and neutrals.

[@charlesjohnson6073]

I watch this channel on the way to work and on the way home. Been doing electrical for almost five years in the Indianapolis area and since I've been watching this channel I feel like I have learned so much more. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into providing great and educational channel.

[@electricbro8136]

Woohoo bra I’m from the north of Indiana. Haha great to hear another electrician. Please never put your grounds this close. This was a habit square D did factory built.

[@Neil-ym8vy]

Also smart to tape cardboard over the the terminal and guts where the breakers are. Avoiding metal shards. I don't recommend people drill holes into a live panel but sometimes if you don't work for yourself this is a good practice.

[@SirBrass]

He said that the conductors to the panel were deenergized before he tapped.

[@SavedByFaithInJesus]

ALWAYS a good practice, even if deenergized.

[@mackfisher4487]

A faster way may be to use the yellow ideal Spliceline 42 orange In-Line push-In Butt splices to extend circuit equipment ground connections from old neutral buss to new ground bar location.

[@johnc6343]

I appreciate the price/cost breakdown Joel.

[@mos8541]

rite, same

[@steverosenbaum2469]

Hi Jeff, Retired electrician here. I think 10-32 screws are required. Again depending on the AHJ. I really enjoy your channel. Doing a great job 👏

[@TwilightxKnight13]

I am installing a new Square D Homeline Plug-on neutral 200amp panel and the pre-drilled/tapped holes and the ground bar are 8-32. Considering how [relatively] new this panel design is, I would doubt that 10-32 is required. I did quick (not thorough) peek at the 2020 code and while 404.10(B) does specify -32 threads, the size of the screw is determined by the manufacturer of the device, in this case the ground bar.

[@Gruntled2001]

@@TwilightxKnight13 Agreed, I think it's a 110.3(b) item, "install PMI", using supplied hardware.

[@zerosparky9510]

Also think they are to be 10/32. and thinking about it. just good policy anyway.

[@Gruntled2001]

Awesome video, as always. Talking about those lugs: if there are OEM covers that the manufacturer started making, I try installing those, as a value add. If not, I tape the hell over them using 3M 2228 self-adhering rubber tape or 2229 pads.

[@jt3178]

In Canada panels are required to be sold with ground bar, solve the problem as even main panels are generally wired with separated ground and neutrals....

[@DavidHalko]

This panel has separate and was “sold with ground bar”, the panel “was wired with separated ground and neutrals”, so you may have missed the original problem. The problem is that this panel, in the role it previously played as the main panel, had the existing separate ground bar joined with the neutral. The panel has moved to a new role as a sub panel. He likely determined that moving the grounds to a separate new bar disturbs the least amount of existing infrastructure to solve the code / safety problem. In this panel, Neutrals can be re-wired to one existing bar, grounds left on the existing bar, and break the bond between the bars… but if any old neutrals were cut too short to make it to the other existing bar, it would be a new problem. This also probably reduces his liability, working with old equipment, by not touching anything else.

[@stevebabiak6997]

@@DavidHalko - if existing neutral wires are too short, would code allow a splice of some sort to lengthen them?

[@dougtaylor8380]

@@stevebabiak6997 Yes, you can wirenut an extension to make it longer. A breaker/distribution panel can be used in the same way as a junction box so wires can pass through and be joined.

[@stevebabiak6997]

@@dougtaylor8380 - thanks, that’s what I thought. And hence I don’t understand why the “wires aren’t long enough” is being put in here like an excuse.

[@DavidHalko]

@@stevebabiak6997 - just because you can does not mean you should. If 1 or 2 wires need joining, it may not be a bad plan. If most of the wires are too short, those wire nuts can build up & suck up space fast. A single wire nut mistake can cause a fire. Moving existing wires where they don’t need to be joined is a safer solution.

[@vancester1st]

There’s room for that elsewhere in the panel. Placing it right above the main lugs is sketchy and creates a hazard for the poor souls who will be securing ground wires there in the future.

[@WeMe83]

Or backing the screw out and and the wire slips down and hits the lugs.

[@sparkythebuilder]

Greenlee drill and tap set is $45. Go to Harbor Freight and pick up a set for $12. I have been using their set for many years with no issues.

[@mos8541]

way wayyy wait... you've been using those SAME drill taps for YEARS? if in a power tool, unless im in a clutched drill at 2 or 3 ive never had a 6 or 8 last even months, i even keep the snapped ones for easy re threading where hole etc. already in place cuz drill tap go SNAP

[@gregmartin1757]

Harbor freight? You can't be serious? No professional tradesman buys tools from harbor freight they sell cheap inferior cheap tools for clueless homeowners who don't know quality from garbage.

[@tumbleweedking5668]

@@gregmartin1757 99% China to boot.

[@mrcryptozoic817]

Manual taps, yes. Years. Drill taps, vrry unlikely. I have a set i inherited but would never put power on them.

[@deadluser]

That's cool. Didn't know that subpanels had to separate ground conductors. When we upgraded our service at my last house, and they turned my master panel into a sub panel I don't think they did that.

[@TheRiddler491]

Grounds and neutrals stay separated and are only connected at the first means of disconnect. Because your main is now a sub, it is no longer the first means of disconnect. I think I explained that right.

[@TwilightxKnight13]

It is a fairly common mistake made by many electricians, especially self-taught ones and handymen, but if you got a permit and the system was inspected, chances are they either remembered to separate the ground and neutrals or the inspector caught it and they corrected it.

[@Roy-ij1wq]

@@TwilightxKnight13 Inspectors also make this mistake. When I built my shop 25 years ago I did my first DIY wiring job and asked the inspector to do a thorough inspection. He didn't flag that the ground and neutrals were bonded in a subpanel, didn't flag that I was short a ground rod and didn't flag that I overfilled the outlet boxes. He is the same inspector that passed the inspection when the house was built 10 years before and didn't flag that the kitchen only has one 20 amp circuit that is shared with the half bath. I've since corrected all of the obvious errors but I still get surprised. Last month I had to cut a wire that went through a rotted floor joist I was replacing and determined that it fed the closest outlets in the family room above. I didn't find out until the following morning that it also fed the sump pump in the basement and learned this because it rained the night before and the basement was flooded. I still pull permits for all my work but I don't trust that the inspector knows what he is doing and do my own research. KZbin channels like this one are a great resource especially when they invite comments.

[@deadluser]

@@Roy-ij1wq I think this happened to me. We passed inspection, and the conductors were not separated. Just looked at some pics I had saved.

[@mos8541]

go check!

[@mathman0101]

Knipex and other good manufacturers provide a fully rated Mat that can be clipped across the whole main phase part of the panel adding that little bit more safety when working on individual circuits below.

[@Jpawww]

You have done your customer a disservice by placing that bar there and endangered all the guys that follow behind. Please go back and move it higher

[@chriscutress1702]

In our jurisdiction Aluminum and Copper can not be used in the same box and Aluminum is no longer allowed in new construction. Insurance companies charge an extra surcharge if the house has Aluminum wiring and can deny fire insurance if mixed wiring exists in the house.

[@steveloux4709]

None of that is pertinent to installations following the USA's National Electrical Code. And those requirements/bans on the use of aluminum are not based in science either. The alloys which comprise aluminum conductors since the late 1970's do not have properties of oxidation characteristic of the earlier aluminum wiring of the late 1960s - early 1970's.

[@balexan530]

Why would you put the ground bar so close the the hot wires?

[@ElectromagneticVideos]

I'm curious - does the electrical code or panel manufacturer have anything to say about on adding something like that inside a panel? Obviously its allowed or you wouldn't be doing it! Are there restrictions one should know about? Obvious a very practical and solution!

[@ralph5450]

The manufacturer sells bars yo do just what he did. There's even little nubs and tapped holes is certain places if it works out with wire lengths.

[@ElectromagneticVideos]

@@ralph5450 OK! So the manufacturer of the panel even intended for you to be able to do that! Thanks!

[@petercampbell4220]

My new square d panel gives instuctions to mount grounding bars in other than the pre driiled spots. Just says to make sure screws cut threads into metal enclosure.

[@Roy-ij1wq]

I don't understand why he didn't just remove the bonding bar and put the ground wires on the left side and neutrals on the right. The bonding bar is located directly below the main breaker and the main neutral wire is connected to the bar on the right. The left bar is connected to the right by the bonding bar. He was already disconnecting half of the wires. Why not just move them all and put the neutrals on the right side and ground wires on the left?

[@Cemsicles]

Not every manufacturer makes it possible to remove bonding bars. It's just better practice since ground wires can be braided and bunched to save space but neutrals are not.

[@denverbraughler3948]

It’s better to add ground bars parallel to the neutral bars.

[@dougtaylor8380]

I didn't think noalox was required anymore with the new alloys in production over the last few decades.

[@ericpelayo9872]

Why in the world, would you place a ground bus above the hot lines... You're so fired (I would have fire you😁😁😁)

[@renep.l.1580]

What would you do in case of upgrading a federal pacific? So if you don't have ground in a existing panel and all the wires powering the house has no ground and you upgrade your panel without rewiring what would you do to pass inspection? Please I need help like ASAP. I live in San Francisco California. I need help please 🙏 thank you in advance

[@ElectricProAcademy]

You would be wise to call your building inspector, explain your goals and limitations, be humble, take notes and understand exactly what they're going to enforce. The building inspector and his supervisor get final say.

[@ranger178]

do they sell the plastic caps for the main terminals that they put on new panels separately for old panels like a square d QO panel?

[@offertunatea]

I thought that the sub panels are supposed to get power source from the main panel and they look like getting the power sources individually. What does exactly sub panel mean?

[@mouldyboats]

If you kept the feeders energized during this operation you would be much safer leaving the main closed. The way you did - all the potential now has mostly one path to ground. Through you! It's mainly you loading the Circuit interrupter to trip levels.

[@Calebjones87]

Love your video. I have learning and gaining a lot of knowledge from them

[@williamcorcoran8842]

Dude you are gonna kill someone trying to connect a ground that stabs the line in.

[@ianbelletti6241]

The feeder is hot, then why are you trying to mount your ground bar by the feeder lugs? Mount the bar on one side or the other. You're allowed to have multiple ground bars in one panel.

[@Cemsicles]

Talk about setting up the next guy... If I see a ground bar there, I am installing my own bottom or the side of the panel. We can't just shut the power off when people have medical devices, or it's freezing cold or hot out.... because the electrician before me decided to put the ground bar over the top "because some grounds are short" and they can't be bothered to extend them. It's a total dick move for the next guy, just like putting small wires in larger diameter spaces.

[@ericapelz260]

"when people have medical devices" sounds like you plan to work it hot. That is a BAD idea and, frankly, lazy. Take the time to connect the medical equipment to another source. Run an extension cord from a neighbor's house if needed. There is ALWAYS the potential to short something in a hot box, and if someone is on medical equipment, you just killed them.

[@Cemsicles]

@@ericapelz260 Lol, y'all really don't know or understand residential and commercial work if you think we can leisurely shut off power everytime we add or remove a circuit. Nature of the business is that you have to at times work in hot panels, so you do not put ground bar of all things anywhere near the line.

[@JasonEDragon]

@@ericapelz260 I had a backup generator installed and service upgraded a few years ago and a lot of work was done on my breaker panels - replacing the backing plywood, sifting one panel over, replacing another, and adding a transfer switch. It took a few dozen hours to rearrange all the cables and sort out the nearby phone, television, and data cabling. It was being worked on over the course of a week or two and it would have been impractical to not have worked on the panels when energized at times. To have a collection of extension cords bypassing everything for hours or days would not have improved safety.

[@Checkmate54321]

@@ericapelz260 You sound like someone who has no actual field experience...

[@Checkmate54321]

@@Cemsicles Yea, in my area some older houses don't have a disconnect means other than a main breaker, which does not de-energize the mains coming into the panel. So you would have to call out the power company to pull the meter.

[@randomvideosn0where]

So won't the electricity flow from the mounting screws in the ground bar, into the mounting screws of the neutrals?

[@petercampbell4220]

I did not see or notice when he pulled the bonding screw. The nuetral bar is insulated from the chassis when bonding screw is out. This would be standard for "suitable for use as service equipment" the ground and neutral can`t be separated whe it is"suitable ONLY for use as service equipment" like a meter main. Caps for the important word. So his panel can be a main, or a subpanel.

[@Soprano0913]

I love your videos! You guys are great! I need your professional knowledge on my panel. I have a 100amp 20 circuit General Electric 1960 era. I'm out of neutrals i want to add a type 1 surge protector. Is it code to add a neutral bar and a bumper wire from old to new? Also does the addon neutral bar need to be isolated the original? Lastly no ground bar can i just simply screw one into the panel?

[@plexguy]

Quick question. I have an old sub-panel 300ft away from the main panel in the main house. The sub panel has a 100 amp service that comprises of two hots and one neutral. It also had the neutral and ground bonded together in the sub panel with a ground wire going to an outdoor water line. I would like to switch that old sub panel out for a new one and separate the grounds and neutrals and add an 8ft grounding rod. But can I do that since I do not have a ground wire coming from the main panel to the sub. Also, the conduit that carries the 100amp service to the sub-panel is plastic not metal. what do I do>

[@bobvecchi7981]

How about he violated the UL listing on the load center by installing the ground bar in the first place.

[@WeMe83]

I’m the wrong place. They have pre tapped holes with a ground symbol by them for a reason.

[@bobvecchi7981]

@@WeMe83 but he needed to install the one that was listed for the load center and install it in those pretapped holes. I don’t think he did that

[@liwei-gs2wd]

does an ac disconnect consider a main panel if installed before this main service panel? my ac disconnect doesn't have any breaker it's a manual switch for disconnecting the meter from the main service manually it has 2 200amp fuse inside. so my question is if do i need a ground neutral bond in ac-disconnect switch and isolated the ground neutral bond in main service panel. or is going to be ok just ground wire into my main service panel with breakers? the existing grounding system?

[@RJ-ej1nr]

"It's relatively tedious and time consuming to pull all of those grounds off and relocate them." Understatement! Have you gotten to the point where you have stopped thinking, "Ok, that looks clean, and everything is done precisely correct, but am I sure I couldn't have done that a bit faster?" For me, I've accepted I will be thinking that forever.

[@olivertaylor8788]

I always cut the busbar and whites on one side coppers on the other side.much nicer job,safer,..

[@leiferickson713]

Code is nothing more than the bare minimum and cheapest way you’re allowed to do it.

[@undaya]

Those screws have been 10-32

[@chachasfly]

Looks like crap. Why would you put a ground bar and ground wires right on top of the 2 phases. This guy has lots to learn still

[@JohnstonPettigrew]

Way too close to incoming phases.

[@Xxpoo]

My opinion is that all ground wires should be green insulated not bare copper. It only makes sense.

[@Checkmate54321]

I wish the manufactures of NM cable would start doing that, but all the romex i've ever seen has bare copper ground...It is dangerous for people who have to land a wire in a live panel.

[@idmhead0160]

Having a ground bar right next to the incoming lines seems completely nuts IMHO. Right after the person in the video said that the incoming lines are still hot even after you shut off the main breaker, he puts his hands and wrist right next to the hot wire. No way would I want to be messing around with ground wires right next to that.

[@lakorai2]

Putting the ground bar behind the hot leg inputs is a really bad idea Most panels are already pre-drilled for installing a ground bar specific to the panel. At least on my Siemens panels it is this way.

[@lit1electric]

Turn off the breakers before the main bruh...jus my experience.

[@TwilightxKnight13]

Good suggestion. For those following along at home, turning on the main while the individual breakers are on can cause a sudden surge as all the downstream devices that are plugged in/installed will all energize at the same time. While it is unlikely to cause a problem, there is some risk. Generally, when working on electrical, turn off (de-energize) all breakers starting from the point furthest down-stream and moving up until you reach the point in the system where you will be working. Then go in reverse when you are ready to turn everything back on. Be safe and good luck!

[@denverbraughler3948]

The utility company suddenly energizes 10,000 homes at one time. Can you be specific about examples of problems that you can avoid that are no different from what happens 1 to 100 times per year in rural areas?

[@400080vikkash]

So I'm confused you did this job and never separated the grounds and neutrals at the sub panel? Or it fixing someone's mistake?

[@steveloux4709]

Maybe neither. He explained this panel was originally the first point of disconnect until a new main disconnect was later added outside the building. While acting as a main panel, it's allowable to land both the grounded circuit conductors and the equipment grounding conductors on the same bussing. Once the neutral was bonded in the cabinet outside however, this panel should have been immediately rewired.

[@denverbraughler3948]

How it was originally was a stupid ripoff. I never combine neutrals and grounds. Ground bars go parallel to neutral bars.

[@jonathanbenoit4875]

I think that SER service cable is not rated to be indoors like that? Anyone else notice this?

[@spencerwyche2552]

I would have turned off each breaker before I turned the main off.If you know,you know.

[@gregmartin1757]

Wow i am amazed by the number of people committing here who quite obviously aren't electrician's don't have a clue being critical and pretending they actually know what they talking about.

[@cocotug0]

would you put the ground bar that close to the main lugs?

[@Kamawah]

I am no Electrician but that ground bar is too close for comfort.

[@LannisterKing]

wouldnt that ground arc with the main connectors it is all bare copper

[@csmith8503]

No.

[@olivertaylor8788]

Way to close to your hot lines.FAIL..

[@keeferfulton138]

Your placement is dangerous my dude.

[@MrTooTechnical]

Fuking awesome

[@jjbgmb719]

I have little respect for electricians that use aluminum conductors. There’s no good reason besides being cheap.

[@jeremystewart-wo2sd]

Send me your venmo ill buy you some new gloves, fingertips included.

[@there4u06]

Redeem yourself by taking this video down. You’re literally showing people how NOT to do this. I don’t care if it’s ok in your area!?!? It’s sketchy and risky as this could be catastrophic if you see all the what if’s. 2 grounding bars on the sides would be safer and you have the space for it. And if you care about your reputation you’ll go back to that house and fix it!

[@trustme7731]

It's a code violation since the panel manufacturer did not approve this mounting method and you didn't mention that the panel and the bar were the same manufacturer AND listed for that panel, which is required. The threads are also a code violation because there are too few threads in sheet metal. Like one thread. When the factory makes threaded holes in the can the hole is punched, not drilled, giving much more depth for threads. Hack job.

[@yoho6348]

Your out of your mind!!!! Who would put ground bar, spanning A and B. With in inches! Please don't give anymore advise 😔

[@steveloux4709]

The placement is within the purview of the electrician, absent any manufacturer's directions. This is a matter of preference and we know now that you would have done it differently. But he is not out of his mind, nor is this an unsafe installation. If we are following NFPA 70E, no one should be installing bussing or landing conductors within this cabinet with the power on, right? All he has done is moved the ground plane perhaps 1/2" closer to the ungrounded terminals. I don't see how 120V is going to jump across to the grounded plane given these conditions.

[@denverbraughler3948]

It has nothing to do with ground plane or arc over. The panel is now impossible to work hot. It would be much simpler to install ground bars parallel to the neutral bars as should be done in every new panel. Yes, two or $15 ground bars would maintain the neat installation.

[@steveloux4709]

@@denverbraughler3948 there is no reason that panel would ever need to be worked hot. Period.

[@ericapelz260]

@@steveloux4709 .... there is no GOOD reason. Lazy is a reason...

[@denverbraughler3948]

There is no reason ever to add ground bar across the top of a panel. But watch the video to see what happened.

[@kidkv]

I do hope you're charging less for time for making videos on KZbin, and not the full price for your time on the job site, for making the videos!! Disliked the video, after he only likes the + comments vs the ‐ comments!!