This Video Will END The 6v6 Debate (Plus My NEW Solution)

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[@--Glory--]

Note: It did not end the debate.

[@vergilsgamingchair8772]

Spoiler alert bro 😂

[@Dr.Mango24]

The fact that 6v6 is not at the very least in the arcade is laughable.

[@chpgmr1372]

Eh. Looks like they changed everything in arcade that was 6v6 to 5v5.

[@SSADO-]

6v6 elimination was way more fun than 5v5. 6v6 was basically 3v3 elimination but double. 5v5 just feels less chaotic and not that much different to 3v3.

[@rizaadon]

They can't add it to Arcade because the whole player base would play it almost exclusively.

[@SSADO-]

@@rizaadon I mean, will it really? Overwatch in 2016 used to have no limits. Then they removed that from comp, and added it later as an arcade mode. Then later they removed open queue from comp and returned it later in arcade. Even tho people preferred no limits and open queue back then, they eventually got used to not having it and that’s why they didn’t play it much.

[@apmcx]

Really just give rein wall climb and actually fix overwatch

[@j3fr0uk]

Or widow's hook haha

[@littlelinkg4514]

Just give him Baptiste boots

[@hypermobilesinger]

give us charge up the wall

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

Atleast give him some Pharah pack that way he could simulate a Barbarians Leap

[@jorrellrichardson3181]

Or firestrike jump at least like rocket jump

[@fullmetalf4i]

I will say the side story of that Shanghai Dragons finally beating Goats with a dps heavy comp to win the final was the fact they went something along the lines of 0-42 the previous season. So to see a team that at the time was the worst franchise on OWL history format themselves to be the Goats killers was quite amazing

[@hugo-zi6gm]

Does the 0-42 part even matter? They had to replace all their Chinese players with Korean players before they could actually start winning games.

[@3U9ENE]

Wasn't even the same team by that point. It was just a different team playing under the same name.

[@raffyarceus99]

True but nonetheless was quite an emotional moment😂​@@3U9ENE

[@AC_Milan1899]

They used Ball as the only tank and it worked beautifully against GOATS

[@TV-vz7rf]

Won’t lie, I don’t really agree with the argument that stomps are better now then they were then. That “two wrong tanks is worse than one outmatched tank” I think is a high rank exclusive issue. Contrarily, the issue of 5v5 stomps because of tank gap reaches WAY down into the lower ranks.

[@bobothebob4716]

I'm just going to mention I used to run a 3 stack of rein, hog, mercy, which is generally considered horseshit even back then and climbed well into masters.

[@TV-vz7rf]

@@bobothebob4716 The “suboptimal” tank combos were just fine in low ranks. I remember when I was a plat/diamond Winston/rein player, that sort of comp was the one I hated to face the most because I knew the game would just be my team getting beaten up by the pocketed DPS tanks the whole game.

[@lilwintery6434]

getting a zarya + dva on hanamura was painful

[@akai_shuichi_x]

Suboptimal tank picks were ok in 6v6 if you played well, like even Hog/Zarya was workable if you played around what your other tank was doing. (Flanking hog? Maintain the frontline. Hog playing with you? Bubble him to get charge and protect against cc when he hooks.) In 5v5 there are tanks that counter your entire kit/playstyle (like rein v mauga/orisa) and there's little you can do other than switch. Even if you do win, you'd have to play very passive, rely on your teammates which doesn't work out a lot, or simply play ranks of skill above your opponent. Yes it wasn't great in 6v6 when they had a fully cohesive tank duo and you didn't, but in 5v5 that problem is significantly worse.

[@TV-vz7rf]

@@akai_shuichi_x First part is objectively wrong. Those comps did suck, that just didn’t matter anywhere below high masters. Lol

[@marcusbullock2753]

As a tank player I miss 6V6

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

90% of the OW community misses 6v6 It's a very very small percentage of the community gate keeping the 5v5 crap. No1 asked for 5v5, at the end of OW 1 all we asked for was just please add some kind of content update. They completely forced 5v5 on the community, to justify adding a battle pass instead of the loot box system, that is the truth as they've completely canned their PvE which was the whole reason for a sequel. We are technically not even playing OW2, this is like OW 1.5 with a 5v5 add- on

[@ozman5466]

Same. I uninstalled OW2 a month ago because the Tank experience is garbage.

[@MAW-20]

@@IdLestat-jq2ciidk how you can quantify people who are for 6v6 and people who are for 5v5.

[@jimmyjab8744]

@@IdLestat-jq2ci idk bout that. I wish it was 90% for 6v6 but i think its more like 30% want it back, 45% want 5v5, 25% or more really dont give care or are too casual or new to know about the debate

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

@@jimmyjab8744 5v5 have more support then 6v6 out there? BS this is the sole reason they won't actually put out any polling data because they know it would overwhelming show that people want 6v6, they don't want to be forced into a corner with proof of overwhelming data.. They know this and will still go against the communities wishes to push their own 5v5 failed Agenda. It's happening in entertainment everywhere you have a small few people pushing their will on every series or genre trying to replace characters identities, rewrite entire stories (because they think they can do it better instead of making their work), and just flat out making life miserable at the whims of some over positioned fools in society. Unfortunately, Blizzard is included in those long list of companies that have been taken over and completely parasitically drained of its beauty for some monetary gain. Yeah, I bet that they hope to brainwash enough "New" or younger people into thinking that this garbage they are pushing is the norm. Until the golden age of gamers who know this direction is complete bullshit are just out of the picture or "Purged". Make Overwatch Great Again 6v6

[@donovan4222]

The game will simply never be enjoyable for tanks with 1 tank eating all the enemy cooldowns and being hard countered without another tank to assist.

[@D_Jilla]

This is honestly the biggest issue with tank. I believe it can be solved if actually put effort and thought into, rather than just throwing your hands up and saying "6v6 was better! It's the solution to world hunger!"

[@pippo17173]

​@D_Jilla the tank class is never finished when the game came out. Almost all need a rework.

[@KingN3LO]

Tanks just need more self sustain

[@D_Jilla]

@@KingN3LO tanks should not be affected by CC as much as they are...

[@Aquarius003]

@@KingN3LO The problem with tanks having more sustain just means they are bullet sponges. If you make them more than bullet sponges, they become insanely oppressive. When they are more oppressive, people can't do their jobs and it becomes more frustrating for everyone else. This is what happened with Orisa when she was super good. You just couldn't kill her and she just did everything.

[@omgbutterbee7978]

Maan that whole open queue vs role queue really is a subjective thing. I can appreciate people who loved the freedom of open queue. But in my experience the vast majority of my games were frustrating unless I grouped with friends. Random players were overwhelmingly selfish and I felt a lot of pressure to play heroes I didn't really want to in order to win. Maybe I should give fewer fucks, but I'm a cooperative team oriented person. I LOVE when a team is clicking and I want to be part of making that happen. Role queue softened that pressure greatly. Now at least the team composition will be BASICALLY a real comp. Now you want 5v5 open queue? Last time I popped into 5v5 open queue it was 3 tanks 2 supports in most games. It was just goats with 1 less support. This is before the new dps passive so now you would probably want at least ONE dps who can spray down the entire enemy team with some anti-heal but my god I can't imagine the meta being fun in open queue. It's basically been solved. You stack the most obnoxious abilities. That's it. That is probably fun for some people but for me no thanks. I'm just nostalgic for OG dive meta. That's my bias. Something mobile and dynamic. That's what's fun for me.

[@TheAudioPop]

I totally agree with you. I'll also add that I sucked at DPS when I started overwatch, and I could never play DPS in comp without feeling terrible for my team because of open queue. I had to buy a second account just so I could get past my fear and get accurately placed in bronze for my DPS play. Role Queue solves that because I have a separate rank for each role and I can play at my role without throwing the whole game.

[@wookieninja8794]

Yes this!!!! Most fun I've had is when my team is so on point that at the end all of us are just showering love and praise on each other. I've had tank games like that and myself and dos are telling supports how great of a job they did while the supports are glowingly tell me and dps how well we did. It's just such a great feeling when your team actually works well together as a team. I've even had games where both teams are working well as teams and win or lose everyone on both sides are singing praises and thanking everyone for a great game. It's just so rare to actually get in 5v5 OW2.

[@toastfy]

A soft role queue or adding a role limit would have solved this issue to be honest

[@proxydefault8398]

@@toastfy How would that solve it? Wouldn't that still mean that someone might have to choose a role they don't want to play? I'm not sure I follow. I do not, ever, ever, ever want to play tank. Ever!! So I want the option "unchose" it so to speak. And I say this as a former tank main. :)

[@toastfy]

@@proxydefault8398 Open Queue allowed for creativity but players abused that creativity by running 5 or 4 DPS which then resulted in Role Queue which allowed for no creativity. The best of both worlds would have been to implement a role limit in Open Queue, around 4 or 3 max per role. By adding a role limit, it would have still allowed for some creativity regarding compositions and the downsides would be there would be no 5 or 4 DPS on one team anymore. Regarding your argument about players not being able to play what they want. Role Queue already does this in a way: If a player wanted to switch role mid game be it for whatever reason (e.g tank not tanking, support not healing) it wouldn't be possible since it forces two-two-two thus the player can't play a role they want to play. If I were to not compare it to Role Queue, the best argument to be made is that forcing someone on tank is better than having no tank at all also the game should encourage flexing between rounds instead of hard-locking one role for one entire game. Would you rather have one tank that's a Roadhog or no tank at all?

[@theredguy92]

I just wanna say in my experience playing 6v6 having two tanks that werent the best synergy wasnt an automatic loss like you make it out to be. Your team was at a disadvantage but it felt considerably less of a disadvantage than in 5v5 when your tank is being countered. There were many guides online of players reaching top 500 with off meta picks like zarya, roadhog, and wrecking ball even during double shield. I see far less diversity in the leaderboards of 5v5 bc what you pick matters much more than it did in 6v6. If you were good at an off meta pick such as wrecking ball or roadhog having another tank to frontline allowed more playstyles and good players could adapt their play to the situation at hand and still get good value. There are no diverse playstyles in 5v5 bc your tanks only job is stand in the front, dont die, dont let their tank run over us. If your tank trys to do something other than hold the frontline theyre pretty much throwing whereas in 6v6 tanks could go off and put in work. Also from a dps perspective it was nice being able to 1v1 a tank player. Now if a squishie comes across a full hp tank in a quiet room you better run 100% of the time bc they have 3x your health and more dmg mitigation than 6v6.

[@bobothebob4716]

One hundred percent.

[@therealwoolfio]

Absolutely. If your tank is bad now it’s over instantly. Almost the same with with support too honestly. But it’s usually because they are helping the terrible tank feed even harder.

[@hinaksen-nx8km]

Same for me. I used to be mid to high masters (EU) on both dps and tank. Tanks felt oppressive sometimes but it was more fun and interactive than it is now. The individual skill of the tank seemed to really matter (Cloudy, BallOW). Now it feels like rock paper scissors. Tank used to be rewarding now it is the most unfun it ever was with dps passive and no support (your supports lose you the fight if they don‘t dps instead of healing you). Playing tank is just walking on eggshells with less carry potential… They also need to bring back dps doomfist. The devs need to stop ruining the game and bring back ow classic or listen to the high elo players (t500, Streamers and Pro’s) instead of thinking for themselves… (they clearly don‘t know the game well enough) But till then Overwatch is dead. Push is maybe worse than 2cp

[@Nyxtia]

Nah, one-tricks still everywhere in the ladder. My experience 100% lines up with SVB's where getting a Rein Hog on Numbani or something was absolutely lost at spawn. And it was so ridiculously common to get stuff like Zarya DVa or Sig Winston or some absolute nonsense, always a loss. Didn't even matter what the enemy team played because your two most valuable role slots were cosmetic. Now, you never lose based solely on what your tank picks. You *can* still lose if the entire enemy team works together to counter that pick and your otp isn't skilled enough to play around it, but even that is vastly preferable to the complete cluster that was OW1 tank picks.

[@cl4709]

That’s true. Hog vs Genji was a fair 1v1, Cree vs Rein, Dva vs reaper, etc. All of these could’ve gone either way based on skill. Now this dynamic is lost

[@Theclooch]

Spoiler alert: this video DID NOT in fact, end the 6V6 Debate.

[@humbertofilho3308]

People still don't talk enough about the Shanghai Dragons playing ball, widow, phamercy and brigg and winning that 2018 (i guess) tournament. THEY JUST HAD BROKEN GOATS. THEY HAD FIGURED IT OUT BRO. why do people take that for granted?!!!!!!! OWL didn't give time for that to develop, but it was there. the game died there, with 222 role lock

[@chalupabatman4978]

Dragon's and Hunters always played their own game and that's what made them great. I was a Shock "fanboy" but I always appreciated the fact that they played what they wanted.

[@Johnsmith36346]

Because the viewership plummeted so fucking hard. 2019 the goats meta only lasted like 3 stages in owl but that didn’t matter it killed the perception that ow was ever a fps game.

[@chalupabatman4978]

@Johnsmith36346 also the switch from Twitch to YT definitely didn't help

[@leodavinci9682]

Pretty much all the reasons why 5v5 should have been better were not met, it's not less visible cluster, it's not easier to balance, you have (unless u play a sniper in a sniper meta) not a single bit more solo impact... In theory, 5v5 could be better, but I dearly miss 6v6 mostly because it was more chill and more tactical and less like whack a mole in a kindergarden for adhd kids...

[@Mehno97]

How do you come to the conclusion that its not more solo impact? Is it just a feeling in your games or do have some thoughts on that?

[@shiloh3541]

@@Mehno97I’m a tank main and I feel mostly cosmetic in a lot of fights. The ability to make impactful plays has decreased significantly since OW1.

[@leodavinci9682]

@@Mehno97 because you are relying so much more on every member of your team to do something. In 6v6 you could have a bad tank or a bad dps and it didn't matter too much. In 5v5 you need your whole team to do smth. Also there are stronger counters like suzu or LW Pull that make playmaking really difficult. In ow1 for example I thought ana was a high skill cap hero because it was difficult to hit a big anti with all the shields, but with positining and a flank you could pull it off and win a fight for free. Now its easy to hit an anti, it just has waaay less playmaking potential. And tanks (unless they're unbalanced) have it difficult to make plays alone anyways because they rely on heals and someone to finish off their damage

[@D_Jilla]

​@moritzmehno770 that's what comes down to, which is individual feeling. Which is why many of us will not agree. To me, getting that one kill or using an ult that gets kills, builds much more momentum to win a fight COMPARED to OW1.

[@zrosix2240]

It’s objectively better to balance. Not only is that shown by the constant meta shifting in 5v5 that role queue simply did not see, but also statistically it is easier to balance a smaller team than a bigger team. That’s common sense

[@lostlandsredux3977]

5v5 is trash Ow devs thought they could balance easier by copying mobas and reducing the variables. Instead they ruined the tank role, making shitscan dps op - then had to overtune healers and tanks more to addess this. Ruined tank's identify, removed tank synergies, game is so much worse now - i've always argued this and cant beleive its taken so fucking long for "pros" to get on board The reason why this conversation KEEPS being brought up, is because it was the wrong fucking choice - and more and more people have gotten numb to the copium blizzard pumped out when making the change. No one asked for the change.

[@MrGrreatness]

6v6 is trash keep crying

[@TheBorderHoppr]

the problem with 5v5 no one talks anout is the toxicity towards tank. theres only one tank for everyone to gang up on whereas 6v6 they actually had someone to back them up. you have a problem with who the tank is playing? at least the other tank can play the braindead rein the dps keep complaining the tank isnt playing, or, the other tank can defend the other one where you have another tank advocating that rein is useless instead of a whole team that never played tank or if they did are bronze tank ganging up on one tank.

[@kielmessersmith1956]

I don't know if I would list dps freedom under 5v5 benefits. In case anyone forgot, dps was the least free and impactfull role till season 9 when hero HP was raised, and the dps passive was added.

[@Dingle.Donger]

I thought SVB was supposed to be smart. I couldn't have been more wrong. This was embarrassing.

[@alexmaganda5827]

hes one of blizzards shills

[@T1J]

overall I like 5v5 more. i feel like my individual performance matters more and i have more control over my own destiny. counter swapping is annoying, but at least in the metal ranks I really dont think its that big a deal you just have to adjust your playstyle (or just play the RPS swapping game - which is really not the worst thing in the world if you are good at multiple heroes. i am not sure how this became such a big complaint tbh swapping is a core part of overwatch from day 1). it might be more oppressive at the highest levels but I kind of like the challenge of learning to play against counters.

[@ptitqui]

It's miserable on the tank side imo. I used to be a tank player, and I could work around counters. But now in the metal ranks everyone knows the counterswaps to a tank, so if I'm having a decent first fight on Winston, the enemy team more often than not immediately comes out on reaper/bastion/dva etc... I'd say overall I like 5v5 better on all other counts. But I went from a tank main to never queueing tank.

[@bobothebob4716]

I don't think 5v5 is very fun or "competitive". Only about 20% of my games are a toss up. The rest are me farming their spawn, or them farming ours. Usually because someone got stuck with an OTP.

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

I actually feel like it was more rewarding play in 6v6, every one collectively had way more options and way more ways to counter or approach situations which allowed you to be much more creative with your plays. Counter swapping for tanks is completely un fun and it actually makes it feel like your individual tank play is rigid and restricted to only a couple play styles otherwise you loose the game. If you want to win , you almost always "HAVE" to counter swap your tank. Tanks can no longer play the tanks they want , and if they do play less optimal tanks into unfavorable comps then they can so easily get zoned out of the game and basically just bullied. Even though I think it's good to be able to play multiple heroes, you shouldn't be forced to have to swap your tank just because your Hog, and now the entire enemy team just picks Mauga Reaper Mei Kiri and Ana , and they can collectively sit their and counter even single cool down you have. You are basically a sitting duck. Let's bring that 2nd tank back so we can make interesting comps again. Counterswapping has always existed but there was always a chance to win against superior comps.. You were never forced into a corner to feel like you as a tank are obligated to swap or your team is going to flame you and just tank diff all the time. These people sure like to blame their tanks for loosing, Tanks take the most abusive chats and are singled out, obviously, because they have a larger responsibility and wins are more dependent on who is playing the tank role better.

[@TheAudioPop]

Agree!

[@LilMoonieDragon]

Oof, I definitely do not agree that Open Queue 6v6 was peak overwatch. I remember so many more cons than pros of open queue because people were just so selfish and vindictive. Theoretically yeah, people could swap to fix a problem at any given time, but much more often than not, people straight up didn’t want to. Most people weren’t flex players and didn’t want to be. I vividly remember all the fights that’d happen when we desperately needed someone to swap to tank or support and people refused. Or people did it, but they tilted because they felt pressured to swap against their will. I remember stressful and chaotic solo-support games. I remember absolutely miserable solo-tank games. I remember the 6 dps “fxck it, i’ve flexed enough today so i’m not swapping off dps” games. I also remember seeing a lot of vitrolic hate towards dps players because they were the least likely people to swap. Maybe you could say I’m looking at it through trauma lenses, but I don’t have many fond memories of Open-queue as a support player unless I was playing with friends.

[@DonCarmolo]

It's funny to me how this discussion could be EASILY settled by Blizzard just making OW1 be playable again and let people play whichever version they wish and let things fall into place. If OW2 is really better it would show or viceversa. And even if OW2 turns out to be massively more popular I'm sure there would be a player base that would keep playing OW1 no matter what, kinda like WOW classic. This discussion is so unnecessary...

[@cj32323]

They would need to double the balance team to balance both games and blizzard isn't about to spend that bread when they are laying off people.

[@personalbudakai9161]

that would involve splitting the player base aka longer que times, which would be a major negative factor against that idea. Not only that they would either need to hire more employees to balance each game or split tthe employees to work on ow1 team or ow2. It would be a no brainer to hire more employees but companies are very much not willing to do that so easily.

[@heiko2255]

I mean, there it begins 1. You split the playerbase (after already losing people who prefered 6v6 and left) 2. You are putting OW1, which didnt get updates since 4 years, against OW2 which is now Live-Service So unless your plan involves putting all Heroes, Reworks and an acitve balance team into OW1, it will be OW2 favoured from the Start and not give accurate data on what format is prefereed 3. You could make OW1 run again, sure, but that would just be unecessary Server Cost for Blizzard and they wouldnt really make money of OW1 (unless like in point 2. you put effort into it, but that would mean hiring like 50 more people to keep OW1 up to date and it would split the playerbase and its just a weird scenario to be in) Trust me, as someone who called OW1 his favourite game, i want 6v6 back like no one else (OW2 isnt even in my Top 30 best games for comparison), but this isnt a good solution imo, we need 1 Game and that game needs to get the attention So the best bet is either OpenQ 5v5 (max 2 per role) like SVB said Or OpenQ 6v6 (max 2 per role)

[@DonCarmolo]

Logistic problems aside, which are heavy on suppositions I'm not completely sold on but are fair I guess, I'm precisely saying that if Blizzard was really interested in settling the issue empirically, they could absolutely do it. My guess is the risk of 6v6 being cool with a good portion of the community is just to big a risk, so they won't do it not because 5v5 is better or worse; they just won't entertain the possibility of the other big reason why overwatch had a 2 slapped at the end (the other one being the pve) is another flop. The discussion and endless theorization are still pretty much unnecessary.

[@donovan4222]

Or just have a 6v6 mode in quick play or something to test it out

[@obito1621]

Double shield was not a format issue, it was a balance issue so do not put it in the 6v6 role queue problems

[@Theta117]

the only argument ive seen for 5b5 is that blizzard cant balance their game. which didn't change for ow2 so what's the point. Killing the main tank - off tank synergy is horrid and just about any support or tank player ive talked too hate these changes. 5v5 only benefits DPS players and disregards a fundamental aspect of ow1. which was team play

[@mrpetebojangles21]

You’re a fool/very low rank if you don’t think teamwork isn’t still extremely valuable. Especially in the super fast current dive meta. 5v5 wasn’t a balance decision. It was a people don’t want to play tank issue.

[@Theta117]

@@mrpetebojangles21 "no one wants to play tank" because Blizzard can't balance their game. CC anyone? GOATS and the onsent of double shield? Also top 500 for tank now starts in diamond in 2. Really makes you think how 5v5 worked out for everyone Teamwork still matters in 2 but not to the extent 1 had this is pretty clear by eliminating the main tank - off tank synergy OW2 is pretty comparable to siege in that sense. Teamwork is good, but outside of the champion it doesn't matter all that much.its only in the highest peaks where it actually mattered.

[@cakesama9770]

Wrong bruh we were there

[@Theta117]

@@cakesama9770 there for what exactly? I remember noone liking the 5v5 card when that came out. Among other things.

[@pphaver871]

I feel the same way as a ball and zarya player. However, we have to acknowledge that a little more than half the player base locks dps. It was probably necessary, though it did kill our fun

[@rexoverwatch]

18:50 why not reduce the hp on the shields or increase the cooldown? double shield is bad cuz the numbers, not because there are two shields, how are you missing this?

[@Ogre32890]

This whole system continues to pander to DPS and Support players at the expense of tank players. And every time it's discussed it's basically glossed over quickly like "it's acceptable for that role to suck as long as a few people still play it." And why wouldn't people feel that way? DPS mains probably outweigh tank mains at least 4 to 1. Possibly more. I enjoyed Reinhardt so much and at this point I don't think there's a hero that's been left behind in the mud more than him. You all never deserved your tanks. You want people on the role but happily accept the job being made more and more miserable so that you can play like shit and still get value.

[@Waywurd08]

The solution is 6v6 open queue but role lock at the character select screen. Back to one rank for all roles. Maybe even make 6v6 the competitive gamemode and make 5v5 the quickplay game mode

[@RD-um9dy]

I like this but it should be a maximum of two tanks and supports per team, and a maximum of three dps per team

[@Waywurd08]

@@RD-um9dy that’s the point lol

[@robertochavez805]

I just won't play until 6v6 comes back. The problem was never tank it was brig and bap. Make tanks fun to play.

[@DS9-mh9dt]

Bring back 6v6 shame on the Blizz bootlickers

[@sparquisdesade]

Here's my argument for 6v6. If we have had previously seasons with competitive mystery heroes an comp CTF and CTF blitz (modes you can't even play anymore an which were made JUST for that season), then there is NO reason other than their own hubris for not allowing 6v6 role comp card SEPERATE from 5v5 role/open. Who even cares about game balance. They didn't balance any heroes for comp mystery heroes or ctf. Just base HP pools off open queue rules an let it ride. If it works, it works. This way people can enjoy both. BUG OMGERD MUH QUEUE TIMES Simple solution there too. Allow solo players an groups of 2-3 to queue for multiple game modes. Like 2 max. First queue to pop, they can join that game and it then removes them from the queue from the other. We allow flex role queue, why not flex game mode queue? Speaking of, side tangent, why is it that we can get an EST wait time in queue for role q games but it can't seem to do the math to give us an est on q times in open q? It seems like there is a behind the scenes push to direct players to only play role q. Side, side tangent. BUT MUH QUEUE TIMES part 2. It can't get any worse. I'm bronze to low silver an dps wait times are 20-35 mins. EDIT: LOL you included visual clutter as a negative point for 6v6. VISUAL CLUTTER? Like... are we playing the same game here? Have you SEEN a game with 2 LW trees or hell we have an even bigger problem right now with Mauga and his ult crashing the server if you have 2 of them at the same time. Don't even bring up visual clutter as a 6v6 problem

[@MofoMan2000]

Just gotta say, I love how you bring up the competitive CTF mode. In my opinion, it's the best mode in the game and I don't know why they haven't brought it back this year. I'm very sad :(

[@sparquisdesade]

​@@MofoMan2000 All memes aside, I was actually more partial to the comp mystery heroes when it came out. Then again, this was while I was still on console so I dunno. Man, I kinda regret switching. Anyways. Yeah no one took it seriously, which is a shame cuz if you think about it, being really good at mystery heroes (IN THEORY) takes way more mechanics, skill an game sense than jus one tricking FOTM to top 500 where you're already pretty much hardstuck via years of banked up SR.

[@heiko2255]

The whole "Synergies are OP" thing only really was a thing in Masters and above 99% of the playerbase could play Hog/Rein into Orisa/Sigma and they would win, so yeah its important for high elo, not so much for low elo and just really blocks a lot of cool strategies from happening As 6v6er, i like the Idea of OpenQ 5v5 with (2 Max) but i could see another compromise 6v6 OpenQ with a Max of 2 Tanks / 2 Supps / 6 DPS With this, Goats wouldnt be possible or any other form of Supp/Tank stacking, it does have cons though, but people who want to throw with 6 DPS would make that decision themselves. At the end of the day, i just want a more dynamic and stragegic OW again, with Duo Tanks and just more stragegies, as former T500 in OW1, OW2 just doesnt hit as hard and gets real boring, also it feels way to deathmatchy and lost a lot of teamplay.

[@MAW-20]

I would say diamond and above. In plat, people started to notice and complain. Gold, you didn’t need it.

[@heiko2255]

@@MAW-20 This could be contributed to the meta staying the same for 3 years Same thing happened with Goats, nobody played it in 2018 in metal ranks, but in 2019 people caught on "Oh this meta is OP and the Pros play it" and then sometimes the metal ranks tried to play it Same with 2x Shield, that wasnt played at all in like 2020 but around mid 2021 some peope started playing it If they actively balance and change the meta enough every 1 - 2 Months, the meta Comps wont ever trickle down to metal ranks unless people 6 Stack and just try to play it

[@pphaver871]

As a ball player, that sounds good. I could work with those selfish dps. I could play rein zar when I play with my friends as well

[@akhayat89]

I would like to see 6v6 role queue but with the current cadence of balance changes. I think the double shield problem was because there were so few updates while the devs were working on Overwatch 2. But now that we have weekly or biweekly balance patches, the metas would hopefully be less stale while avoiding the open queue problem of people feeling like they need to flex onto a role they dont' want to play just to make the game playable.

[@bambampewpew32]

yeah no it's LITERALLY only because they ABANDONED the game, 6v6 was NEVER even a TOPIC until ow2 lol

[@noliferetiree1354]

Samito debunked you second by second. Sheesh man how much are they paying you to try and gaslight the community? The game is dying. When it dies you’re out of a job. Like dude wtf is wrong with you.

[@chpgmr1372]

The creator patches showed that not even the pros cared to try to balance the game. I actually liked Lemonkiwis attempt and seemed like she actually tried.

[@aldarrin]

Can confirm most 6v6 games sucked. But the good games were SO much better. 5v5 is like being on antidepressants; the lowers are less harsh, but the highs aren't as high.

[@D_Jilla]

As someone on antidepressants, i like this analogy, but i question if you are on any because my highs are still high.

[@SocialDesignFlaw]

Hawk was right in the original debate, the best point throughout it all: Tank Design in Overwatch been poor since jump. There has not been an impressive Tank Design in the game since the original cast, with most of the additions either minimizing the Role's structure in favour of a DPS-focus (Junkerqueen, Mauga, Rammatra, Re-worked Doom) or just outright over-kitting them to survive anything (Orisa, Sigma). Wrecking Ball is the only Tank released into the game with a unique design that brought something to the Tank Role and even his design isn't especially impressive for the role. Compare that with the Design Structure of various Supports and Damage heroes that have been released and how well received many of them were by the playerbase (both in Role and out). Between Sigma and Orisa (1 + 2), there's at least four separate Tank Designs that could have easily been their own heroes in 6v6. Arguments to be made for at least 2 in Ramattra/Mauga, as well. The energy, understanding, and creativity wasn't there for the Tank Role throughout Overwatch 1 and is now heavily curtailed in Overwatch 2 because of the demands for survival. 6v6 Tanking was miserable as time went on not because of synergies, but because the designs were consistently directionless and mind numbing.

[@donovan4222]

I like the design of ball I think he’s a pretty fair character, he gets insane movement and a big health pool but lacks CC protection and frontline presence/damage ability. One of the most unique designs in Overwatch, if not the most unique. I mostly agree with the rest of your take though. But I will say I think those DPS focused tanks could work well in a 6v6 format as an off tank.

[@SocialDesignFlaw]

@@donovan4222 Ball, similar to Queen, is a great "Hero Design", which isn't the same as a good "Tank Design". They are distinct values that should be parallel? But often aren't, especially in OW2. The DPS-focused Tanks getting shifted into 6v6 off-tanks would mean 8+ Tanks in the Off-Tank position, with only...3/4 Main Tanks? Queue times would be an issue here. For the record: Doomfist, Wrecking Ball, Winston, Reinhardt, Rammatra, and Orisa all have Main Tank potential in a re-configured 6v6, but not without some serious examination of just what kind of game Overwatch can be/what 6v6 is meant to accomplish. Which, the community obviously isn't really for right now lol

[@secondmoto381]

​@@SocialDesignFlawI'm not sure queue times are a problem in a free to play model. I do think that 6v6 adds more player choice in terms of what people feel they're allowed to play, most applicable but limited to tanks.

[@SocialDesignFlaw]

@@secondmoto381 Free to Play means the playerbase is going to be much more volatile. A lot more up and down as casual/average players come and go with every new content release. There's no incentive really to continuously play a F2P unless part of the game hooks you in (which OW used to do very well, OW2 not so much). But Main Tank (Reinhardt, Winston, Orisa) was always, historically, the player-type that was difficult to find because of how rare the player was/less engaging those heroes were compared to the Off-Tanks. You're right, though. 6v6 adds WAY more choice, across the board. Even if Main Tanks were limited in heroes, the combinations with that many new Off-Tanks would be exponentially better than 5v5.

[@secondmoto381]

@@SocialDesignFlaw agreed, with more tanks in the game too the differences between "main" and "off" tanks may diminish. I can almost see the distinction shifting away from that towards a "mobile" and "grounded/stationary" tank categories. Only thing I'd add is the game's ability to hook you is dependent on being able to play the heroes that appeal to you. Because OW2 compels one to play specific heroes or get stomped often times you cannot play what you want, even in QP.

[@FDE4L]

Chengdu played one tank which was ball and three DPS and that was a pretty good comp against goats

[@diegocorvalan5435]

no it wasnt, they had to play goats half of the time anyways and they could only beat the teams that were bad at goats, half of the maps 3 dps didnt work at all

[@diegocorvalan5435]

i really enjoy watching them, but its cope to say chengdu was good that year

[@why8642]

damn, what was their winrate against good teams?

[@libertyprime9307]

People saying they only beat bad GOATS teams - Dragons were beating the best GOATS teams doing the same comp.

[@Shiro-yp5xg]

if the game isnt made better by 5v5 and its not fun to play tank im not playing overwatch and thats how it is

[@AlexTheHorrid]

16:30 funny how you mention that you’d lose with ball hog in OW1 when it is far worse in OW2 having them SOLO a ball and hog is much more doable than just 1 of them. 5v5 is so ass it’s hilarious the people believe it’s actually good

[@longdongsilver4444]

No is the answer unless we go 6v6 its over. We will never get good game until then. Period end of

[@Spika94]

So, with there being only 1 tank, they have effectively locked me out of ever playing Tank characters again, even though I used to enjoy playing Rein, Roadhog and Winston. Why? Because I don't want to take up the massive task of tanking for the team alone. So I am 100% for 6v6 to come back.

[@DjNaste]

The only valid argument in favor of 5v5 is the queue times. If we really look at the change for OW2, it's pretty obvious that the devs really only did 5v5 because they were worried about the queue times.

[@pippo17173]

I think all the new stuff added in 2 could make 2 tanks work. The dps passive will keep two tanks in check. They do need to raise it back to 20 percent.

[@bobothebob4716]

Eh I very often have to wait 8 minutes for support queue to pop in 5v5. In 6v6 my tank and support queues were instant and my dps queue was 8 minutes. They just moved the problem around.

[@proogenji7526]

So why are other arguments not valid?

[@DjNaste]

@proogenji7526 because every other reason they've provided us for the change have pretty much been debunked by this point. There's nothing wrong with liking 5v5 more than 6v6, that's just a subjective opinion, but to me it's clear as day that they were terrified by the ridiculous queue times in OW1, and changing the format was the easiest way to address that.

[@Bry1an]

@@proogenji7526 they have walked backed almost every single statement involving overwatch 2

[@STRONTIumMuffin]

5 v 5 may decrease que times but it also has decreased tank players as tank is less fun now and now que times are longer again. sunk cost fallacy.

[@MrBreakdownx]

Sigma and Orisa were ow2 tanks put in ow1. They had bloated kits and were never properly adjusted. Also the devs cant design tanks without a shield thats not a 6v6 issue thats a dev issue. A shield is probably one of the most boring forms of tanking atleast imo. A better design would be interactive ways to mitigate damage. JQ is probably one of the best designed tanks if not heroes the dev team has ever made.

[@TV-vz7rf]

Before I watch this, hoping it wont be nullified by the video, is there going to be another group up 6v6 debate?

[@draunt7]

5V5 WAS NEVER A VALID SOLUTION TO ANY PROBLEM! IT WAS ALWAYS A MONEY GRAB BY KOTICK ON HIS WAY OUT! STOP DEBATING THIS. 6V6 IS HOW THE GAME WAS DESIGNED TO BE PLAYED. the only alt is 3v3 with 1/role to retain the scale. They just need to seriously develop a consistent balancing philosophy.

[@AD_Nelson]

Obviously, all we need is a second bot-controlled Tank player.

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

Lol, remember they almost kind of did that with the Season 8 Battle Beast mode with the Giant Orisa's.

[@jonahp1127]

More than anything, the problem with OW1 was the abysmal balancing. This had nothing to do with the format and all to do with the devs not making the right choices. Seasons 2-9 in OW1 were a blast, and it’s not wearing “rose-tinted glasses” if the game was actually lots of fun. The game became stale because of heroes like Brig, Bap, Sigma, and Orisa being over-kitted and over-tuned.

[@0uas]

Brigette made me quit OW1. It was fun, but I also think OW2 is more fun. The reason I don't play paladins is for the same reason. I usually try and fill in, I didn't like that in OW1. Honestly mystery heroes comp would be amazing for flexible players, I do like open queue as well

[@jclspice]

I hope 6v6 never comes back. Double shield was the worst meta in overwatch. If you were a solo player, and there wasn't team coordination, You just couldn't do anything, there was always a shield at play.

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

That is the typical complaint is the double shield making 6v6 the worst in history, which is simply not true. This is also an issue that is so easily fixable to adjust to the game, and most tanks currently don't even utilize a shield. Rein has been suffering for ever and is your main shield tank, the only decent one that can play in situations is Sig. You can simply split your heroes into shield heroes, and the team can only pick one shield tank.

[@sums6653]

Thats a balance issue that was solved already for a patch and then broken by the very next that re-introduced it. IE October 2020 where seagull even made a video of it. "Overwatch: The *BEST* it's ever been (seriously)" 2 shields is fixable only having 1 tank that hates counterswapping is not.

[@heiko2255]

Please stop using 2x Shield as the only reason 6v6 sucked Yeah it was trash, but you know what else is trash? Not fucking balancing the game for 3 years, not adding Heroes, Maps, Events or any other content until the "new game" releases Imagine Blizzard just left OW2s balance after Doom was broken in S2 or Orisa in S6 or Mauga in S8 The Game would have the biggest player loss ever if any of these 3 Tanks stayed meta like they did, imagine 3 years of Solo Mauga being OP, nobody would fucking play that, but they got "fixed" because the game has active balance

[@chpgmr1372]

Maybe massive map changes will make tanking better. People keep claiming that the maps were designed for 6v6 or designed for 2 tanks. Really the maps weren't really designed around much of anything. Much of the high ground everywhere is inaccessible to half the tanks or takes to long to reach any of it and during that time your entire team is being poked.

[@stgeorge4559]

I don't think anyone below grandmaster knows what their talking about, The problem is for some reason people don't like playing tank because it's not fun. They take most of the brunt of what going on and when it was 6v6 their was 2 tanks to tank everything. And idk what it is about tank others don't like. Tank isn't my prefered role Maybe its the same in other games with tank like roles

[@gravisan]

I'm sorry, peak overwatch was dva/winston, rein/zarya - and to a lesser extent hog/orisa the DLC tanks really screwed us (sigma and others)

[@burni988]

Priority passes take me back. Literally everyone had them so it ended up just making ur queue times normal (aka long) instead of excessively long.

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

There is no reason that Priority passes are not even being utilized for 5v5 right at this moment, there is no good excuse. It's simple, addresses the que time problem directly, and incentives people to que for all roles. Steamers used to collect these and even duoed with people just for having the tickets, it's a no brainer.

[@lilwintery6434]

@@IdLestat-jq2ci some people would que tank without caring about their rank just to get tickets for the roles they cared about, they would usually lock hog regardless of team comp or map edit: just got to the part where svb mentions that

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

@@lilwintery6434 It sure was nice when you could actually que THog as tank and not have to be Cyx Ultra Hog Instinct level to make him viable because you had a 2nd tank to pair with. Besides that's an ez fix prioritize winning games to earn the tickets, that means you have to actually try to get the rewards. Ez Pz solution

[@ncBadrock]

I was support main for all of OW1 and I had almost always instaqueues and a shit ton of prio passes, because there were too few interesting heroes and supports were ALWAYS blamed for the loss.

[@myyoutubecommentschannel8784]

2 role max open queue sounds like a great idea! They could try implementing that into the current open queue and see how that goes. BTW open queue is not in the arcade. They have comp and unranked, just like role queue.

[@jorrellrichardson3181]

Can we try both 6v6 and open que in the arcade? Just actually advertise them in the game abit. The amount of content through the arcade is underrated and undersold. And what happened to the gun game mode?

[@bobothebob4716]

In 5v5 each persons individual performance affects the game far more. It's far to hard to cover for throwers or the statistical oddball leading to more stomps and less enjoyable games.

[@erikrulez17]

tank had no characters to play near the end of the game. why on earth would that role stay compelling for people to play. also double shield never got fixed. an when they did the game had gone 5v5 an then they brought out rammatra an that went out the window again.

[@bobothebob4716]

Double shield that everyone talks about was Sig Orisa. That does not exist anymore. All other combinations of 2 hereos with shields would be a throw then, and now. They fixed the problem.

[@heiko2255]

Also, when someone is a casual and compares the OW1 Heroes to OW2 heroes, its night and day OW1 Orisa: Boring, slow playstyle with a boring ult Ball: Very niche and takes effort to get good at, also has a weird playstyle many people just dont like Sigma: ( I love Sigma so i dont really understand why people dislike him) But i guess he feels boring for some? To OW2 Queen: Boom, in your face, pull enemies and slice them, run into the enemy, exciting hero Ram: Pummel enemies to death and chase them with your ult Mauga: Run in and be an unstoppable machine (unless he is uselss that patch) but also reworked Orisa, she has way more interesting gameplay loop and her ult is fun to use or Tank Doom who is another fun Hero for many casuals Overall, OW2 has like 5 New Tank Heroes that are 1000x more engaging to casuals than the new OW1 Tanks (which is a shame because the release tanks especially Rein/Zarya/Dva/Hog/Winston are beloved by the casuals) Its not a fair comparison to make and the bad Qs of OW1 RoleQ have lots of factors.

[@whitegrill8809]

I feel like the tank issue was better in overwatch, rather than overwatch 2. Yes the queue times were longer but I feel that wouldn’t be an issue now.

[@rexoverwatch]

7v7 is better than 5v5

[@liquidwut]

SVB thanks for putting the time into making this and attempting to advocate for the player base while keeping the business side in mind which isn't done very often with these sort of analysis. The proposed changes would be fun to try, however I'm not convinced it will have the desired outcomes. Here's where I'm going to add some of my (hot) takes as someone who has played this game on and off since launch and have returned during ow2. I've been enjoying the game again. Having the option of dual tanks will not work unless there are major overhauls to health pools, healing numbers, and how the dps passive works. I do believe that dual tanks is unavoidable if you want to win and can wreak further havoc with balancing in 5v5 unlocked. Nothing will die again between the amount of healing that can be pumped, large health pools, and mitigation via 2 tanks. I don't see how this can possibly work unless the dps healing reduction passive becomes a global passive. As you noted, tank design will also be severely limited again since shield use will need to be restricted. I actually take Avro's seemingly tongue in cheek comment more seriously about removing the tank role all together or drastically overhauling it in the current 5v5 locked roles format. Side note - I think everyone spouting "my synergies" with tanks are forgetting what made it tenable for most ranks/quickplay was the amount of burst damage in early overwatch, frequent ultimate rate buildup, and much less burst and sustained healing. People forget or weren't around where tanks could be busted with things like flashbang with mcrighclick, hanzo scatter arrow, etc. My point is so many things were "broken" that many more heroes became viable. This allowed average players to pick whatever they wanted. If their aim was not great, ultimates were often available so they could impact the game. I also think people are being disingenuous when they say this miss the tanking experience as you noted in the past where people miss tanks but don't want to actually play tank. Having a hog + zarya which happened so much with people farming tickets during double shields was just gg next. At least now you can play around 1 trick hogs since the tank synergies aren't as oppressive. I checked out during GOATS and uninstalled during dual shields for the same reasons many that played dps did. The game didn't feel much like a hero shooter anymore along with the horrible queue times. The pain of tanks properly cycling ultimates with their supports on hanamura when playing competitive with competent players sounds like a nightmare that doesn't need to be revisited. When players say they miss 6v6, I think blizzard needs (and are trying) to get to the root of what that means. If I had to put my money where my mouth is, I would bet that just means they miss the hero fantasy of picking the heroes they like, having agency to impact the match, and have a community to play with again. While well intentioned, I think the 5v5 unlocked may unintentionally remove the hero fantasy and start locking meta picks in each tier of skill again and take agency away from many players especially in the dps role. The social aspect of this game has been pretty terrible compared to early overwatch and hope blizzard continues to work on systems to improve this while promoting creators that simply enjoy the game.

[@pudifake6848]

In Ow1 i uses to be gold dps and had to wait 8~10min (Brazil server)

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

Ngl to this day I genuinely hate the people that Q into open and pick 3rd dps. You are literally the 1st problem your team has to deal with and the game hasn’t even started. I don’t care if this happens in unranked but I’m trying to win my ranked matches and climb.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

And 3 dps isn’t necessarily even that bad of a comp especially now after the new passive. But it’s not a comp you come out of spawn with it’s more of a counterswap comp. I’ve seen it happen many times

[@CH4R10T_TV]

I swear, at minimum I'd get Dva/Hog in my games just about 50% of the time. It was crazy. I'm not against 6v6 coming back but I definitely don't have rose-tinted glasses about that time in the game's life. It felt better in other ways, but yeah, running that into Temple of Anubis was my personal hell.

[@Deprece]

5v5 vs 6v6 should not be the focus. The focus should be for the Devs to find a way to make Tanks fun to play. This is the most important thing. I don’t know how they can pull it off. If they go 6v6 right now and not find a way to make Tanks more fun it can literally kill the game because of queue times. Find a way to make Tanks fun to play for at least 50% of the player base then go from there.

[@sums6653]

The whole argument is that u cannot fundamentally make tanks fun to play against each other in 5v5 without making them all feel the same because of counterswapping. Where as you could make tanks fun in 6v6 and unique. You cannot make doom fun into hog sombra cass where as doom zarya/winston can be fun against hog orisa/sig because the other tank can help reduce the spam you take when you go into a fight.

[@Deprece]

@@sums6653 The problem with your argument is that you said “you can make tanks fun in 6v6.” This may be true for you specifically but it’s not true for the wider playerbase. We had 6v6 already. We had open queue and role queue for what? 6 years? Tanks were NEVER popular. The majority of the playerbase didn’t pick them even when they were easily the strongest role in open queue. In role queue the problem was so bad that they introduced priority passes just to try to get bodies in the queue for Tank. Open queue wasn’t better because role lock was introduced for 2 reasons. 1. To stop goats in pro play. 2. To actually have Tanks in regular matches since more often than not had 1 or less. We have had 6 years of multiple tanks yet people simply weren’t playing Tank. That problem has carried over into 5v5 but queue times are better because it’s 1 tank. The common denominator is that people don’t want to play tank because it isn’t fun enough. It’s the number 1 issue that has been plaguing the game since OW1 launched in 2016.

[@Bry1an]

@@Deprece the tanks are fun right now, ow1 had like 8 tanks and half of those involved a shield. either 5v5 open queue 2 max or 6v6 role queue man thats the only way

[@Dr.Mango24]

I’ll end the debate. OW1 was better.

[@truthbetold6322]

6v6 was better

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

6v6 was Overwatch period, I don't know what you call this 5v5 Paladins imitation crap is now.

[@kristwi37]

Stop taking drugs.

[@IdLestat-jq2ci]

@@kristwi37 Only people taking hard drugs are the ones trying so hard to convince themselves that 5v5 is better, they need the drugs to distort and bend reality so they believe the lie they tell themselves.

[@jos7496]

One of my biggest problems with 5v5 versus 6v6, is that in 5v5, if you are learning new tanks its usually bc ur getting countered, so you swap. Then you learn that tank slowly as your main gets countered and u swap to whatever tank ur trying to learn, so ur going into this new tank woth a more negative outlook and already more likely to lose. In 6v6, a lot of the time youd lesrn new tanks bc they synergized w ur teams tank pick. Learn rein bc teammate goes zar, lesrn orisa bc teammate picked hog, learn dva bc teammate picked winston. It was a much more fun and engaging environment to LEARN how to play the tanks, rather than 5v5 where learning new tanks is always punishing

[@jos7496]

You were learning on the basis of synergy, whereas in ow2 5v5 you're leaning on the basis of counters. And if we want more tank players in the game, we need to start making tank more enjoyable.

[@ziggy2metalx720]

The tank counter problem was not worse in ow1, saying it was is false. Even samito pointed something out like if you are a gm Winston player in 5v5 for example, a plat Bastion can gatekeep you just by existing. That is not skill. 5v5 limits to what tank players can play. What if you don’t want to play a certain tank but now you have to or else it’s an automatic loss. Sometimes I forget there’s 11 tanks because you only really see like 5 or 6 of them most of the time per season.

[@heiko2255]

Did he say that anywhere in the Video? I might have missed it. If so thats... not correct at all, counterswaps barely mattered in 6v6 especially for casuals and metal rank players In 5v5, Counterswaps are terrorizing EVERY RANK and even fucking QP

[@ziggy2metalx720]

@@heiko2255 yeah at around the 15:30 mark

[@heiko2255]

@@ziggy2metalx720 Oh Hell nah, he got it completly twisted What is he talking about lol, you can literally go watch Super play Rein/Hog with a random and shit on 2x Shield (Sure its super and he was peak Tank back then) but it still was possible For the average player, its still completly twisted, counters did not matter to them, but 5v5 makes Tank 1-Dimensional FOR EVERYONE so now it does matter and effect EVERYONE

[@michaelc7418]

If they focused on these 4 things, queue times in 2-2-2 would have gotten much better: (1) Reduce/remove CC from DPS & Supports so CC stacking is not something getting on Tank players' nerves so much, because Tank is the role hit by CC the most. I'd reduce/remove CC from DPS & Supports even further than Blizzard did going into OW2. (2) Add lots of new Tanks & Supports to catch up to the number of DPS heroes. When 2-2-2 came out, we had 8 Tanks, 16 DPS, 7 Supports. When 2-2-2 ended, we had 8 Tanks, 17 DPS, 7 Supports. We literally did not get a SINGLE new Tank or Support hero after 2-2-2 officially released September 1st, 2019, so duh DPS queues are long with that kind of hero roster and hero release schedule. (3) Rework Doomfist, Orisa, Roadhog, & Wrecking Ball to at least have a little bit of team protection so that pairing them with other Tanks is less tedious. Although Doomfist in particular should be a DPS again but with pain points of playing against him addressed. With Doomfist back in DPS role, the devs would need to release another dive Tank to take his place. (4) Narrow the number of ranks down so high rank players get into games faster. Visual Clutter is reduced by reducing the size of stuff like Lifeweaver's Tree of Life ult, and also by increasing ultimate cost so ultimates are not up as often to cause Visual Clutter. The concept of Double Barrier is in no way unhealthy for the game. What was unhealthy for the game was the amount of uptime barriers had right when Sigma was released, on top of Orisa Fortify & Sigma Kinetic Grasp being strong sustain on top of the barriers (Fortify & Grasp were too strong at keeping Orisa & Sigma alive from enemies who got on top of them), and of course you also had Supports keeping them alive too (8 sec duration, 20 sec cooldown Immortality Field, LOL). Basically, Orisa + Sigma meta does not prove Double Barrier is problematic, but shows that the devs did not realize that there was too much sustain. DPS & Support have less freedom to move around the map without having a 2nd Tank to make space for them. This leads to DPS & Support players feeling teamwork way less, which leads to a worse experience for them. Having a good team composition is even more important to win in 5v5 than in 6v6. Because Tanking is so limited in 5v5, having the right Tank to make enough space for the rest of your team is far more important. And counter swapping being a much bigger issue in 5v5 also means that games feel unwinnable more often than in 6v6.

[@mrkizu]

I'm simple... 5v5 gives me more time to breath and provides more opportunities for me to make personal plays. Also I've seen the entire cast of heroes being played now. 6v6 started to feel like if you didn't pick the exact best heroes and played perfectly means you would automatically lose. It pretty much became meta or lose.

[@kdjets]

I actually really started enjoying Overwatch again once Overwatch 2 started and I mainly play support. I don't do a lot of competitive, but a lot of the issues with support with them not having a lot of agency to do much more than just stand behind a shield and healing was a problem for me. I didn't even realize it was an issue until Overwatch 2 started and suddenly I felt like I could do so much more as a support than just simply healing a tank.

[@joshuabarnes1486]

This is genuinely dishonest man. I understand having a different opinion, but dude was straight up lying or just had no idea what he was talking about with nearly every 6v6 point.

[@tyrantla7120]

Who are all these pro 5v5 people? How can you prefer a less dynamic game where who you pick is possibly more important than how you play? Their arguments are terrible.

[@ZarelidT]

It’s almost like the player base cause what the players want to play.

[@tyrantla7120]

The debate has been over. 6v6 is better by far.

[@cl4709]

6v6 IS Overwatch. I remember Jeff Kaplan specifically saying they chose 6v6 because 5v5 felt like “if you made a mistake you lost the fight for your team.” And “ 7v7 or more felt like individual plays weren’t making an impact on the overall team”

[@acousticwalrus6705]

As a tank player I loved having a duo but it sucked solo queuing since there were simply not enough tanks

[@Jim674the18]

Season 13 we do this. That's it. Just do it and just try it for the season. This is a non-new hero season and not one of the big 3 seasons (s6 and s9 had some of our biggest changes, so I'll bet s12 will also)

[@Cursedmanplays4631]

There is no debate. 6v6 is more enjoyable, more balanced, and better overall. Tank are either too unkillable or very easy to kill. Counter-picking is more cancerous than goats, and the fact that if the tank is getting diffed, the game is unwinnable to that team, is not balanced. Que times: solved by Ow2 being f2p and gaining popularity again. Goats. Goats is now not gonna be viable due to dps passive. And there is a much simpler solution that also helps que times. Ill get into that eventually. Double shield. Impossible now due to Orisa rework. Que times could be solved by mixing role-que and open-que. How? Limited open que. Open-que but limited to 2 tanks, and 3 of the other roles. So it will always be 2-2-2, or 2-3-1, or 2-1-3, or 1-2-3 or 1-3-2. No goats, que times are as fast as open que, and its 6v6! Will it bring problems like people angry because they may get forced to play a role they dont want? Sure. That problem existed in open que as well but worse becauese they wouldnt play said role and not contribute. The 1-4-1 or 0-5-1 or 0-6-0 was worse...

[@leelaalila8334]

Shanghai Dragons played 3 DPS 1 Tank 2 Supports in the finale I think. It was exciting seeing the meta change in real time and from someone who only played occasionally, I will always miss no role lock 6v6. But I understand why it needed to be done.

[@nailinthefashion]

SVB is MVP

[@reverb2516]

In my opinion, the best compromise between 5v5, 6v6 & roll lock is... 5v5 with 1 tank, 1 support, 1 dps and 2 flex rolls. The 2 flex rolls can pick any character however when they pick a 2nd or 3rd tank, the max HP of each tank is reduced by a percentage, and that percentage stacks for 3 tank picks. Similarly if you only end up with 1 support then that support has a percentage buff to their healing and if you have 3 supports then all 3 supports have a percentage debuff to their healing. I'm not sure what the exact buff/debuff percentages would be (maybe around 15-20% ish), that would take practice to figure out. The benefits of this is... you get to experiment with more comps which 6v6 used to provide. you get the faster que times that 5v5 provides. you get to continue to que for the rolls you intend to play, allowing hyper flex people to que for the flex roll. counter picking becomes less a problem just for the tanks, since now the flex rolls can lend more of a hand. Hopefully with the buff/debuff system games won't feel too unplayable based on team composition, and the guaranteed 1 tank, 1 support, 1 dps will add some stability. The downside is though that balancing is harder to figure out, since maybe some combinations will be too strong and the buff/debuff system wouldn't be a good fix all solution to some broken comps.

[@sasorioftheredsand4348]

6v6 easily on top

[@bambampewpew32]

based svb, also I'd trade the low lows of 6v6 for the HIGH HIGHS, they were INSANELY high omfg I remember playing in 2022 and having like the most life-changing feeling game lmfao I was so happy

[@zayodadong]

SVB: "The devs MUST listen to the casuals only and not care about the esport because then the game will be more popular!" SVB: (also begs for changes that sound incredibly unpopular and unfun to me personally as a casual player) And I know content creators like blaming esports around here but Riot listens to competitive sweatlords and they seem to have the more popular games and esports to go with. so maybe listening to good players isn't a bad thing like salty youtubers say it is.

[@Chaz-Support]

I think something that doesn’t get discussed enough is how individuals have a better ability to carry in 5v5 HOWEVER individuals have a massively increased ability to throw in 5v5. If there is a large tank gap, the possibly of winning is so low it’s unreal. But even a support or DPS gap feels so much harder to make up in 5v5 and one person can just troll the game so easily.

[@gamist8166]

Imo no matter the format, just winning is important and that really should be defined by someone with authority. Is the right way to climb ranks by practicing a singular hero out of vc with match char muted? Some pros seem to treat it that way. Imo that style should be looked down upon and discouraged by the game itself. I think valorant does this way worse tho

[@TheDevos1]

Why is he only talking about tanks….support queue times were instant. NOBODY played the role, it’s the whole point it got buffed in OW2. Now sure tanks are def the least played role, but I don’t remember supports ever being greater than 5 mins unless there was a new hero. Maybe it depends on rank or what platform you play on but my support queue times are always smaller than every other role.

[@shioramenrabbit]

I don't miss 6v6. I played tank and it was not THAT fun. The open queue though, with SVB's idea, I would 100% give a hearty try to.

[@paulatreides77]

Same. Standing around and shielding someone else was not my idea of a good time. I have more agency in 5v5 to make plays, although I do get counter-swapped even in QP, so if they could find a solution to that (perhaps SVB's solution), then I would be happy.

[@RacingSnails64]

Honestly, I've always loved 5v5. It feels more fast and frantic, yet also more streamlined and manageable. Less clutter. It feels like your every movement and decision matters more now. I can't speak for the tank experience at the higher ranks, but I'm still having fun. This all said, I'd be willing to try 6v6 again. 6v6 with reworked Orisa, Tankfist, and all the new tanks would be very interesting to see.

[@CoffeeSteveCoffee]

Really well said SVB! I too remember those days of feeling like the match was over while you're still in hero selection screen because both tanks went something like Roadhog/Wrecking Ball.

[@donovan4222]

Yeah and now you get a Doomfist one trick on Havana/circuit royal playing into sigma/ashe/widow and it’s the exact same thing…except you’re even more likely to lose because there’s not a second tank to swap and make up for the 1st tanks weaknesses.

[@icyflames135]

I remember that because i was a genji main on console and i loved vs bastion 4:40

[@yesman2473]

Just do a quick hack 6v6 and lets see what happens with queue times and how it feels. If people are happy about it and queue times are not a problem bring quick play hacked again but nerf tanks and go from there…

[@reverb2516]

there is a lot i really like about your idea of the 5v5 open que and i think it would be a really fun way for blizzard to have a season between hero releases. the thing i would miss most about the current roll que system though is i am much better on tank and support that i am on dps. any open que game i would be throwing if i locked dps but when i roll que dps i am put at the appropriate rank. i always try my best to win so being able to do that in roll lock means on each class i get to play a different game, but in open que i only get to play one (slightly more expanded game) i would miss being able to pick dps without feeling guilty. as i said though i would love it for a season.

[@kawnTTV]

Tank is just dead without a second tank. Blizzard needs to realize that tanks are the backbone of the team, and without tank players enjoying themselves they will cind a new game... killing overwatch in the meantime.

[@mayuwu4408]

I love the compromise with 5v5 open que 2 max idea!! that really does feel like the best of all the worlds, I'd love to see them run an experimental or quickplay hacked thing for that over like a few weeks to let people see how they feel about it.

[@RD-um9dy]

I actually like that,

[@mayuwu4408]

@@RD-um9dy mhm! he talks about it more specifically later in the video

[@i_sekai]

it's just saying bring in the old 2-2-2 lock but in 5v5 open queue 😂 After saying how bad the 222 was compared to open queue (that being from SVB's personal experience) i don't believe in it but am willing to try it out why not

[@mayuwu4408]

@@i_sekai 'after saying how bad it was' he was saying how bad _everything_ was, that was the _whole point_ of the video; no format is just strictly better or worse than another, and that every format will have its costs and benefits to be weighed against each other. 5v5 open queue (2 max) is a little blend of everything: - open queue's good queue times, and some of the versatility/chaos/synergies of open queue and/or 6v6 - (sacrificing some but not all of the below certainty of role lock and visual clarity/easier hero design of 5v5) - some of the certainty of role lock, and some of visual clarity and easier hero balancing of 5v5 - (sacrificing some but not all of the above versatility/chaos/synergies of open queue/6v6) (this is all off the top of my head, if I went back to compare and contrast all the modes with 5v5 open queue 2 max I could probably find more elements combined here). This is why he said it's possibly a decent compromise, and why he said it's good if most people don't like it a little, it's got a bit of everything so it's got something for everyone and other things they don't like as much but others do like. Not to say he or I are game designers, but I think it's a pretty good idea and would be worth testing out.

[@theshard5697]

Just started the video, I often find myself agreeing with SVB's ideas so here's my opinion and I wonder how much of what I write will end up being what he says in the video: > Open role, but max 2 heroes per role > You can select a PREFERRED role before a match, that matchmaking should take into account, but it's not a strict lock > tanks stop being damage sponges and lose HP, which homogenises the hero pool AND THAT IS A GOOD THING everyone likes playing DPS right? then make all characters DPS. Supports have already long moved in that direction and THAT'S FUN. It's a hero shooter, everyone should shoot. I propose even a role rename to DEFENSE / OFFENSE / SUPPORT because the difference between tank and dps SHOULD BE (in my opinion) that tanks/defence have damage mitigation/battlefield control cooldowns vs. dps/offence have kill securing cooldowns hope Im right lol

[@xox1592009]

I’m going with 5 v 5 one tank is enough tyvm, I don’t want to shoot at two bullet sponges who can mitigate my damage at will. Plus I’m enjoying the shorter Q times

[@austinmcmahan6267]

Hot(?) take, the current DPS passive would've fixed goats

[@pippo17173]

The game needed some form of cauterize like paladins. The fact it took this long for that is just laughable.

[@Staticiii]

This is what pissing me off 5v5 We've had a year and a half with. The game just isn't the same. tanks are mega buff but don't really do anything without the proper supports. You can get the wrong tank and the way you get shit on is RIDICULOUS. They for some reason kept healing numbers the same even though they took out 1\3 of a team's hp with 1 tank. Then they add supports that are unkillable or have ridiculous dps capabilities. EVERY issue they have or are trying to FIX is fixed with changing the format back to 6v6. Even things such as the dps passive and health buffs, these were all to make up for the second tank. or the fact that dps felt useless because support and tank sustain abilities became too strong. 6v6 open queue Was ass. You rarely ever got the play the thing YOU wanted to play. It could be fun, but usually was people playing what they wanted and not caring about anyone else. GOATS absolutely murdered this format anyways. Their health pools were too high and they had too much dmg mitigation. Even if there is a OWL's team who finally won against it, We're comparing an OWLS team and coordination to casual gameplay. GOATS was simply too easy to pull off in lower ranked matches. 6v6 Yes, had ass queue times, and tanks had an issue with CC, but that's it. If they actually tried to fix double shield the game would've been fine. You literally make similar changes from OW1 to OW2 to characters and the game is fine. Make the same CC changes to cass, sombra and mei, while also changing orisa, making dbl shield impossible and the gameplay is actually solid. Problem is...this format never got an actual chance and the queues would've been better going to a free to play. I've played all 3, as a dps main, I like being able to actually shoot stuff in 5v5 but i don't actually feel like i make big plays, ever. I don't get excited making plays in OW2. OW1 had it's issues but most of them were balance issues.

[@clear4155]

No debate end until the problem of 5v5 sterility is fixed, I believe. I realize it might mess with queue times, but I'd prefer if they bring back 6v6 with the tank role split into 2 and keeping role lock. The problems with 5v5 hyperpowered solotank role lock are not fixable. The tank has to be that strong when it is the only tank. It leads to this more sterile game hyperrevolving around the positioning and judgement of 1 player on each team. Initially, OW2 getting more of a defined "form" to the "esport" felt a bit good, but the sameyness really gets old when we indeed remember the crazy stuff from the past, though admittedly it was in part because we were stupid and hadn't figured out the game, yes. I do however believe that the main problem that comes from a simple return to 6v6 (2tank defensive ability rotation) is highly mitigatable with some additional changes. A way to do this is to split the tank role in 2. 1 Tank, 1 "Bruiser". Convert suitable tank characters with no big active team defense (like Ball, Doom, JK) and maybe a few heavy utility or disruption having DPS characters like Mei, Symmetra and Venture to the Bruiser class. Make sure all very active team defense tanks (like Rein, Sigma) are in the Tank category so you can't stack them. Of course, heavy tweaks and reworks are necessary on not only abilities and stats, but also character sizes, but it would make the game feel a bit more chaotic and creative again. Teams could gain from splitting up more on the map with various comps. It is kind of sterile feeling right now with monotank on many maps. This sterile sameyness is part of why the game isn't that much of a joy to play. At first it felt a bit more like OW2 had become a proper esport with a proper "form" of how the play was, but this turned out to be a bit of a trap. I think quite a few DPS players would enjoy flexqueuing into a Bruiser class with the characters tweaked for that role, so I doubt the queue times would get much longer, though it is a concern and depending on implementation, the role lock effect on queue times could get worse.

[@haputhegnome3891]

Think tanks should have tank abilities, not giant health pools. Queue times is bad for tanks, because no one wants to play then, you need to make people want to play Tank First, 6v6 or 5v5 do not matter If tank sucks. Everyone wants to play DPS. No sup player ever complains about doing DAMAGE. Why tanks dont have less health. More tanking abilities. And should do more DAMAGE. Like a soft Tank. Because is that what people want, whould lower queue times.

[@Iron-Blurr]

People keep bringing up que times as an argument. Stop it already. It's so disingenuous. People didn't Wana play tank in ow1 for 3 main reasons: 1. Original tank design was BORING! Remember original rein with 1 fire strike and inability to cancel or steer charge? Remember Dva without missiles and matrix on a cooldown? What about old Winston without a right click?? Remember old orisa? Remember old hog that had to sit still and heal? Even today sigma is boring. Sitting behind a shield spamming shots is the most boring thing you can do. Tanks like orisa and sigma were strong but boring. No one wants to play boring tanks with boring gameplay loops. The solution is to make FUN tanks like JQ, ram, Doom, even mauga is fun(but still kinda oppressive) and all the reworks to old tanks gave them fun abilities like orisas new javelin. 2. CC stun locks and no tank passive to mitigate the CC duration! No one wants to feel like a beach ball at a concert when they are supposed to be a front line tank! 3. The game was abandoned. No light at the end of the tunnel for the role that suffers the most. Tank players quit because of bad balance and boring gameplay. Then when the game was abandoned they saw no end in sight and walked away. Stop blaming que times on people arbitrarily disliking tanks when the reality is so much more nuanced than that 1 dimensional explanation. People play games to have fun. If you want people to play tank, make it fun! Simple! Stop blaming format for bad design!