This WILL kill the game.

[@ninjabladeJr]

I will admit as a Rogue main since the 2nd playtest I spent most of the video believing you were one of the many people calling for a rogue nerf, frustrated but willing to hear you out. When I got to your outro I was so relived. You are 100% correct. The burst damage is way to high but if IronMace just nerfs it, rogues would be dead in pvp. Currently Bards, Wizards, and Clerics are better Team Utility and all classes out dps Rouges when you do not take in to consideration their Burst. Now I am about to talk about some old rogue abilities that did need nerfing but I think may have gone to hard; IronMace has added a -50% onto poison builds on top of the default -50% from the base 5 will making it so you can not really build that way. They moved hand crossbows to a perk and gave them damage fall of making that a big double nerf. They made it so you are bumped out of stealth making pickpocketing unviable. They nerfed Double Jump and tumble has always been to slow for a mobility based build. They currently have throwing knifes as un-retrievable on hit and 2 cost the same as 2 daggers. They have given the bard an infinite AOE unlock and open spell + a luck perk so you don't even need a rogue on the team for loot. Really what they need to do in my opinion is nerf the burst damage but give the rogue more combat sustainability, whether this be through a parrying knife, a dodge ability, Higher HP, buffing tumble, or leaning into the utility side of things such as locking doors, or a perk that gives a higher chance of looting gear usable by your party.

[@TheSpudHunter]

This guy gets it.

[@bigearl]

The poison build is a good example of what Rogue could be. Remove the ambush oneshot gameplay loop and give Rogue more strength elsewhere. Playing the class like a swashbuckler with a rapier and a hand crossbow is really fun, weaving in and out of combat with your high mobility. And for the love of god, BUFF THE BACKFLIP SKILL. It's so damn cool but I can barely find a use for it.

[@ninjabladeJr]

@@bigearl It was arguably useable with old double jump as if you double jumped then flipped you could avoid most thrusts or slashes, but that was tricky and now that they nerfed double jump its not really a good idea.

[@dwarfed7695]

I tried Rogue and it just felt completely terrible when you are stealth popping onto people for the burst. It sucks.... you have 1 playstyle and no other viable options, the class is in a terrible state rn. I hope with the bard rework they make some big changes to the rogue.

[@ninjabladeJr]

@@dwarfed7695 Ya, so much of your kit is tied to ambush that if its on cooldown you wait for it or use a potion. Backstab doesn't really work in combat with out it, ambush doesn't work with out it, and using it as an escape doesn't work as you can't move (or only 10 feet if you sacrifice a perk).

[@timothysmith160]

As someone whom dies constantly to every other class regardless of what class i play i support anything anyone says that is derogatory to any other class.

[@MassPerfection7]

I'm here for the drama tbh 😂

[@lufy64]

preach brother

[@k0lpA]

nerf classes

[@biglel1836]

Based

[@e3.14c4]

Unlock all class weapon restrictions, I want to run around with a book in my hand as a barbarian using a dagger in the other hand dammit. Let proficiencies be intrinsic not optional perks! Let me fail miserably in the most joyous way!

[@Mitril47]

I think you're spot on, and it's a very similar thing for the bard. What many in the community think they want (or accuse others of wanting) is for the rogue, or bard to just "get nerfed". But it's far from the actual point. The point is changing the rogue (or bard, or ranger) to the point where it is actually fun to play against these classes, as well as playing them. The bard's current design of "spam 5 annoying jingles for buffs, pop shriek on anything in range, win" isn't fun to play against, and arguably isn't even that much fun to play as. The rogue's current design of "get ambush and weakpoint, camp a door" isn't fun to play against. And arguably, isn't even that much fun to play as. The ranger's current design of "buy a green longbow, camp a door with a hunting trap" isn't fun to play against. And arguably not that much fun to play as. The entire point of having a perk system, and different active abilities on each class is that there should be variety in actual builds within the class that are all viable. Maybe not all at the same time, and at all gear and skill levels - but that you could reasonably expect someone to pick something instead of sprint on a fighter, or tripple-shot on a ranger (or hide+weakpoint on a rogue). Weirdly enough, the most fun class to play for me is the warlock, and the thing is unfinished, with half his perks not even working. But when it comes to the actives? All 3 possible combinations are viable depending on the kind of warlock you want to play and the gear that you bring in - and all have different strengths and weaknesses that are all "warlock-y". What I would personally like is for a rework of rogue to go down the "less is more" route. Combine the reduced footstep sound perk with the movement in hide perk. Combine lockpicking and trap detection. Combine Hand Crossbow Mastery with Hidden pockets. But in turn, also reduce the impact of a lot of the combat-only perks. Ambush shouldn't give you a better bonus than back-stab. Weakpoint should let you punch through armour, sure - but not add any damage against players that.. you know, don't have any armor to exploit the weakpoint against. Make "hide" only useable while in the shadows, with a much faster depletion rate if done in torch light (not instant-reveal, but 10x tick-down speed so your presence is telegraphed (and reduce the cooldown) to help make it more useable between fights. Give the rogue the tools to be a more effective utility/scout/DoT/skirmisher class (for which they already have some tools, just spread too thinly) in exchange for nerfing his one-tap potential. Make him fun to play AS, and he'll also be more fun to play against.

[@cruzafix5013]

I cant believe people still complain about bard while cleric hasnt been nerfed since forever. Cleric actually got really big indirect buffs with the nerf to healing pots/bandages. Also you do know the rank 1 bard doesnt even use shriek.

[@Mitril47]

@@cruzafix5013 I honestly couldn't care less what the number one bard does or doesn't do. Same way I dont care what repoze does with his rogue. What matters is whether those classes are fun to play with or against. And they're mostly not.

[@k0lpA]

@@cruzafix5013 cleric at least has to aim to apply his buffs and heals, it's fun, yeah probably too strong but I think that's an example of where a simple nerf would work while bard needs more of a rework than just playing with the numbers.

[@pulsofumi578]

BASED COMMENT WITH CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM

[@xXEPIKgamerXx]

Just adding my 2 cents that I agree with pretty much everything said here and really like the potential ideas.

[@douglastakle8242]

Rogues are just generally unfun to play against, Even if you know they are there, the damage stack with ambush and weakpoint is insane, and the only way to stop the insantkill from a geared rogue is to stand back and wait 40 seconds for their invis to run out. Even if you catch the rogue offguard and start winning their ability to get away just bothers me.

[@pokeface119]

Rogues insta killing you is unfun the same way how rangers triple shot ability with a high damaging long bow is unfun the same way how a super buffed up barbarian oneshotting any class is unfun the same way waaayyy back when a geared up wizard fireball would oneshot.. Things like that is never really enjoyable.

[@kridicalxsi1177]

@@pokeface119 Nope, completely untrue. You can do movement shit to attempt to dodge arrows. Barbarians you can kite to all hell. Rogue is just a invis nuke. Roll the dice. There's almost nothing to do except accept it. Basically 0 counterplay unless you know exactly where they are. Dumb af.

[@goffdog6012]

Yup. Even if you catch them with their abilities down it doesn't matter. They are the fastest class so they can just run and double jump away lol

[@mypenisisunbelievablysmall3320]

Just run wizard light orb

[@meklowthelemur861]

​@@pokeface119u see the barbarian? U see and can dodge arrows?

[@TanvirBhulcrap]

I'm glad you put out this video, I used to go in solo quite a lot but my play sessions have gotten shorter and more infrequent. It just felt that no matter how much time I'd spend building out a cool kit for different playstyles, I would eventually be robbed of all that progress through a random rogue in a corner. That feeling of helplessness has definitely made me play a lot less and just do a couple of budget runs and call it a day.

[@xXxD3STROY3RxXx]

Warlocks r even worse they one or two Hit U even If Ur a Geared Fighter xd

[@TanvirBhulcrap]

yea but you can usually see warlocks coming and react, keep distance, bait out the blow of corruption, etc - with rogues you got no counterplay@@xXxD3STROY3RxXx

[@kingflamealot3714]

full geared rogue with purple kris kills the range class in closecombat "WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO OMG" while he shoots 8 people over the map that cant even get close to him.

[@thyira3599]

ranger mains are so delutional. They just walk melee range and then wonder why they die xd

[@JonasPetterson-ws9th]

@@thyira3599 Rogue mains are more delusional, luckily your broken class is finally gutted :(

[@gaminglegend2670]

Sometimes you can't even see the ranger shooting at you ,let along react to it

[@benjaminmiddleton4059]

as someone with 500 hours in the game playing since PT2 I have felt the changes in the game every bit of the way. The burst damage that feels as though there is no counter play just isnt fun. Its a tough meta... idk the answer but i used to love the long winded fights. As someone who has mained every class it was truly an amazing experience to learn and perfect each combat style. Even then I'm having the less fun rolling lobbies with my full kit rogue or wizard than I am getting one shot showing my noob buddies the game. They dont even want to play anymore because they have no chance of learning pve if they get 2 tapped every time they try to leave the first room they spawn in.

[@e3.14c4]

I love this. Wonder if maybe they'd experiment with stat scaling for abilities, so invis requires you to sacrifice stat rolls for it to be any usefull, otherwise it would be a cunning moment you perfectly seize to be rewarded with the intiial advantage for your fight as opposed to having no tradeoff and only a massive boon, just the whole enchilada. Also, I use only triple shot and basically raw dps stuff on ranger, it feels hollow, and I wish other skills had a place rather than a crutch (i.e field rations is a crutch, not an engaging skill nor is there potential to show my skill), or at least room to experiment like back in the playtests (give me behavioural abilities, not stat stick jokes that used to be prefence on a different game i.e playtests). But victory is a massive losing gambit, unless I can see how green someone is and offer a fair shake then it's not a worry to engage with someone in that sorta win win sort of way, even if you lose. Mean that the situational capacity for anything but raw damage is a design flaw, you hand a smoking gun to them (the unga boongas and etchisketchistanians) when everyone else parlays with sewing needles. Either create more guns, or empower the sewing needles, ofc scaling down a class to 'fall in line' is nice now and then, but it never feels good, and the whole idea isn't to force player choices, but reward them for earning from whatever they chose, ranger still feels free, because I can ignore everything unless the gap is closed, and the crowd control with traps is insane, which makes bard feel weird since it's a genuine reality bending class. Which brings me to an actual point, how much do you want abilities to bend reality while cloaked within mysticisms, and where do you want abilities to be grounded in their applications? A thief isn't something I ever associate with magicks, nor an archer of any kind unless it's an elve. Which the influx in classes of blade versus the rule bending magicks kind of stings when thinking about how you keep that balance between the two (cleric is married to both, and only cleric. Which means any other that dabble in both are a problem in my book). With the new campfire and all of those changes I am sort of lost on that because I haven't gotten to play since this addition but one day so far in total (it hurts not being able to play at all ngl), but yeah the new balancing was a big issue for me (not fun), it felt very wrong compared to playtests, like a part of the game was ripped out to make it easier, which -feels- is exceedingly resmarted, and detracts from the mission statement of the game and it's appeal. Like some bolts were loosened up and others tightened to compensate for it being unlevel, which in turn creates an unbalanced mess of high ceiling low effect & low ceiling high effect things to try to steer the flow of player choice without any personal preferential wiggle, wherein the beginning wasn't an issue because everyone was exploring. Any time I play an arena shooter I have to explore my weaknesses and strive to be better, the playtests also offer that. Now it feels as if I am entering a competetive market that's already solidified, where honest trade gets you nowhere. Another example is Hearthstone, which to start allowed people to discover their own strategies and counters, until they decided to start moving every goalpost to try and sell more fake cards, eventually reprinting the same card but reskinned for the 'allowed' expansion, often in card combos and pairs, so I fell off hard after the first set of cards because they threw away everything in favor of normalizing their matches until you couldn't tell a player from a bot unless either one made a misplay. If it's a sandbox, people are enthralled, but the devs don't seem to be interested in that, and instead are trying to force excruciating railroads for the game to have more power than the players do. Why that doesn't work. If the game you have is meant to be a hardcore puzzle to solve through, and you have pvp, then you force people to fight each other since there is no room to do both, and pvp is the only real liability, which sucks the life out of the game once people find a niche/rut to sink into so they have that one thing that works rather than navigating between players and pve with any creative interest, and the higher restrictions in the present serverely reflect this for me. Thank you for reading ❤ Ridicule me where you think I tripped up, but I tried for it to all relatively flow to keep the conversational piece within 'causes to effect' concerning deeper issues rooted in this game's development handling, and not just the awkard balancing in the immediate environment.

[@e3.14c4]

The beginning statements double as a way for you to flex your build into whatever gear you roll in the dungeon loot, or have meaningful trade so you can use your favorite abilities effectively.

[@C4xFPS]

As a rogue main and a ranger hater, I 100% support the SpudMan's message

[@Dr.Don.Cornelius]

They both need to be completely reworked, but for some reason someone standing in a dark corner and shooting me across the map infuriates me way more than someone sitting in stealth by an extract.

[@austinlevi3452]

@@Dr.Don.Corneliusif you can’t counter ranger then just play solitaire.

[@kridicalxsi1177]

@@Dr.Don.Cornelius Hell no. Being fully kitted and dying in 2 seconds to someone hiding in a corner invis is just stupid.

[@JFrogy]

In what world should a rogue not win against a ranger with a point-blank ambush and ranger misses triple shot? Maybe its time rangers run multishot as a counter. Rogues are incredibly weak early and late game while mid game they shine. Most classes can 1-2 shot them at range while taking 5 hits to kill due to armor and health pool late game.

[@kridicalxsi1177]

@@JFrogy In what world should a kitted rogue win against a fully kitted Fighter with plate armor? There's no way they should straight up win that. People are quiting the damn game over this Rogue bullshit.

[@LaggyDouble]

What truly broke me, as a support main, was when I was running a 50% damage reduction kit as a cleric, and a rogue stabbed me 3 times, leaving me at a quarter. I can't even get a swing in. So you could imagine what happened next. Another highlight of that shit night was when I was running crypts with a buddy because I was tired of rogue city in ruins. We spawned in the triple bridge room, not even 15 seconds go by as 3 geared rogues jump me and my ally, it's a 2v3, the rogues had us trapped in our spawn room, yet despite that they had horrible positioning, one of them ran in, and they got judgemented on and holy striked on, but even then they just face tanked everything. Last night I decided to give rogue a try to see what was up, and it was gross. All you need is a green kris dagger, and while I did play stealthy and jump people, I also completely understood that if someone were to rush me, I'd be ok because I could two tap them. I think a lot of rogue players recently are using the mentality of "if you can't beat them, join them" because that's the boat I'm in.

[@anarchybrigade1348]

Played almost every class and was waiting to play rogue last.. It's a cakewalk!!! Now I don't touch rogue as I hate this mindset of joining them. Now I don't play!

[@Fritzey423]

Armor means very little vs a rogue. Weak point does not care what ur DR is

[@e3.14c4]

I take it as an opportunity to train, so when the big red I WIN button gets taken away, they won't be ready for me.

[@bubd420]

i literally had 80+ pdr one time and got 1 tapped by a rogue lol

[@douglastakle8242]

@@bubd420I’ve gotten two tapped as a 70% reduction 130 health cleric

[@Sparkykawa]

Back after the third playtest when everyone was complaining that rogue was awful in fights I felt bad for them, but at the same time I knew that if rogue ended up getting buffed to have not only invisibility but the ability to compete and even dominate in 1v1 fights, that the automatic answer was most players would just begin playing rogues, and the dungeons would be FULL of rogues. The power of invis, the double jump, and the ability to move quickly around the map are all incredibly powerful tools that almost all classes don't have access to. So once the rogues had the combat power they would have it all. I said that almost a year ago, and here we are. Dungeons are full of rogues, I checked 2 days ago and 7/10 of the top streamers on Twitch were all playing rogues. (7 rogues, 2 rangers, 1 wizard). High roller goblin caves is the biggest example of how bad it is. Its not even worth queueing up because of the oppressiveness of a lobby almost entirely full of rogues. My solution is to have rogues choose avoidance or combat, not both. If you want to be able to fight toe-to-toe with other classes, you can choose no invis. If you want to sneak around the map, loot it up, you gotta sacrifice some combat power for that juicy invis option. I think that's fair. The devs can tune it until its balanced, but most other classes have give-and-take, they don't get everything at once. (Except a few classes who seem to get everything as well, lol)

[@hczman90]

I tried doing a goblin highroller in my usual chad set with 74% physical reduction and had about 25 strength on fighter. I encountered a rogue and when I saw him he stealthed right in front of me so I shoot my cross bow, pull him out of stealth but by the time i switch to my sword he literally killed me in 3 hits and I couldn't run fast enough to escape. He had a blue dagger and thats it.

[@shyvanatop4777]

this is my issue too you literally cant play goblin caves as anything but no gear wizard or rogue

[@hczman90]

Wizard could use a slight nerf I'd say, but indirectly. I think the addition of more magic resistance options could easily be the nerf that wizards need. Rogues just need straight up stat changes and rework. A blue stiletto dagger will take out anyone in any gear without giving them any time to react, the 3 stabs happen so fast and with weakpoint it only takes 3-4 hits maximum on full geared players.@@shyvanatop4777

[@bouldering122]

welcome to 50% dmg bonus out of stealth and oh yeah it stacks with poison and headshot as well too so basically a 25 dmg rondel will do 56 dmg first touch, a base battle axe does 53 to the head... and one will attack 5 times before the other does a second swing.....

[@Eseerrowez]

@@bouldering122 and weakpoint adds another 50%

[@romkawolf23]

​@@bouldering122you complain blue dagger with base axe, bleu battle axe do 100+ to head

[@Wiiownyou]

>almost every rogue skill sucks so hide/WPA is nearly mandatory (tumble sucks, smoke pot is too slow to come out and the effect sometimes doesn't slow, rupture is just a different flavor of damage) >devs nerf double jump, a tool for escaping encounters so you don't HAVE to burst people for 100% instantly >devs killed pickpocketing completely and totally by making you escape stealth when you do it >devs made hand crossbows a perk, on rogue, the class that already requires all 4 perks for other things >devs made rogue a true glass canon so you can't actually take damage in a fight, you kill them first or they win if you aren't going mach 7 movespeed >devs made trios comps laughably busted with bard so rogues are really only a nightmare for solos Because of all of this rogues have to play the ONE style everyone hates, you can't have fun because ALL OF THE FUN STYLES WERE NERFED. Seriously what is this company doing, WHO complained about pickpocketing? WHO thought that literally every touch should remove stealth, so you can't even choose to sneak past people? Many rogue enjoyers probably played a little differently before every other style was gutted into irrelevance, they need to stop watching streamers cherrypick the ONE game where they pickpocket a golden key and instead look at what has happened to the game as a whole.

[@Blaizen88]

Great video Spuddy, and you bring forth very valid points. I stopped playing not long after release because of how bad the balancing was/is (it's just balanced a bit differently now it seems). I could be a moderately geared Fighter or Barb but was still getting one tapped by Warlocks with bardiches and the likes. It happened a few times where I was geared, green protection potion popped and still one tapped. It's incredibly unfun to go into a fight prepared but not be able to do anything due to instant death. I really hope they can get this right. I'm so scared it's going the way of The Cycle now. In my opinion, both games were in their primes during their beta access periods. Keep fighting the good fight mate. Dark and Darker is such an incredible game when it's playing how it should and I can only imagine how difficult it would be for them to balance all of the variables within the game.

[@orionizaqt]

I posted one thing about nerfing Rogues in the discord and was told it was a "skill issue"... Now I know it's not, it's just Rogue mains coping or just not understanding how there's no counter play to ambush whatsoever. I'm glad to see it's not just me. It's unbelievably frustrating as someone who plays to have actual fights just to get 1 or 2 tapped out of nowhere because I basically just hit an invisible landmine. I know that nerfing ambush and weak point a ton would potentially ruin Rogues in PvP, but I'd rather have them be completely useless than where they are now. I would rather them be deleted entirely from the game than where we have them now. Now I'd rather them be balanced than deleted, but deleted isn't sounding that bad atm...

[@phaneronics]

Id like to see them play with darkness more. Rouge invis should only work in the shadows. You would at least then have some counter play. Like tossing a torch.

[@user-iu6sd8su3e]

Everyone is invisible in the shadows

[@YeetKami]

everyone starts with 2 torches, if torches revealed stealth the rogue population would be nothing

[@TemperateGreenBananaClassic]

if already in a lit area one torch, if dark then 2 torches, make it overlapping light to get a rogue out of invis.

[@isaacsanders695]

then fonally invis pots would have utility

[@e3.14c4]

we would really need torch dousing. Spud mentioned that as his idea in a stream, and the rogue ability to perma turn off a torch until a long skill check overrides it to compensate for the ability cooldown of the rogue is an idea of mine to add I think could work (like how the reload time for rangers is respecting the power of the arrows and not just being infinite). I don't have fun being invisible except periodically on wizard, since the "wait where did the funny robed man go- Ah he's charging a fireball!" is a hilarious way to die.

[@christopherdavis7069]

As a wizard, rogue makes me want to stop playing this game entirely. Half my deaths in this damn game are to rogues alone and I’m not even exaggerating. Even Ranger, he’s oppressive but at least I have had good fights with them and there’s counter play.

[@GravitasZero]

Rogues coping so hard they try to shift the blame onto rangers. They have so much counterplay, one of which is literally just “take cover while advancing” lmao

[@quickschweezy]

Back when I mained rogue I fell in love with rogue because you used the shadows. You would engage people and rupture + poison them, and you would move in and out of melee range to stack the poison while double jumping their attacks. The fights were about melee combat and skill. You didnt just get a free kill every time you use stealth. Now rogue is just a barbarian that can move during his invis pots. Nothing else

[@emerginggorilla]

But nothing changed since the start no? There was a nerf to weakpoint armer pen but thays about it.

[@happyaccidentmaker]

​@emerginggorilla Some OP setups take time to be discovered and played in the mainstream. Everyone has figured out weakpoint ambush was the best.

[@matsume3995]

Another great video Spuddy, good job well done. I remember playing Rogue back in playtest 3 before it had access to double jump and hand crossbows. At the time it was one of the least played classes. Since then it has seemingly become the most popular and most played class despite a minor nerf to double jump and the restriction of hand crossbows to a perk. The primary offender, as you pointed out, is the burst damage. But it isn't the burst damage alone, which many classes have access to - it's the burst damage in combination with hide. It's ironic that while Rogues have access to the greatest number number of perks it seems like the class most often played with the least diversity. Almost every Rogue plays with Hide + Weakpoint in combination with Ambush, Stealth and Double Jump. The reason being that Hide and Stealth are necessary to the element of surprise while Weakpoint + Ambush guarantee an insane amount of burst damage in the form of two +50% weapon damage effects. As if that wasn't enough Weakpoint also adds an additional 40% armor rating debuff for good measure. I think the simplest solution to start would be to remove the additional 50% weapon damage bonus from Weakpoint. The reason for this is, as it stands, Weakpoint is simply the strongest rogue skill second to Hide. There is almost no reason to use any other skill. However, if they remove the burst damage from Weakpoint then it will become more of a utility skill specifically targeted at PDR stacking classes such as Fighter and Clerics which I believe is the intent behind the skill. Meanwhile, you have a skill like Cut Throat which Silences players completely for 3 seconds that never gets any attention. If you remove the burst damage from Weakpoint, Rogues will then have a choice between Cut Throat vs. Weakpoint vs. Rupture depending on the situation. Or they might all just go back to playing Rupture but at least it wont be as crazy as Weakpoint currently is... Anyway, I'm sure a bunch of angry Rogues will hate the idea of having their burst damage removed but anyone that has played in a lobby full of rogues over the past week knows there is a problem. This may not be the best solution but I think it would be an acceptable one in the short term while the devs take the time necessary to perform an overhaul of all of the classes.

[@Minija456]

IronMace made a statement recently saying they're aware that the game is not balanced. I believe they said that their top priority is figuring out how to stop cheaters and DDOS attacks, after that is handled they're going to do some big class balance adjustments. I believe what a majority of the player base wants is for damage across the board to be reduced, increasing the TTK and allowing for more dynamic counterplay. No more one or two shot deaths.

[@jamisonhoyt1544]

Sorry in advanced for the long comment, but I also adore this game and want to see it grow in a positive way. I personally have played all the classes, some more than others, and I will say that all the classes have some pretty crazy stuff available to them. The rogue definitely does need some balancing, maybe decrease the damage buff of ambush and make it so you dont get the buff if you get hit out of invis. Though, I honestly don't have too much of an issue with rogues due to the fact that I have consistently one hit them with a few different classes (warlock with blow of corruption, fighter with a 2-handed weapon, barb with...well barb, and cleric with smite). I would say one major issue is how good movement speed is. I would say rangers and rogues are the two classes that get complained about the most, and they are the two fastest classes (ignoring wizards with haste, and fighters with their sprint ability, because that requires an ability or spell to move that quickly). I think if they nerfed the invis rogue build, and maybe gave them access to more weapons like the hand crossbow without the need of a perk, that would make them a lot more balanced and encourage different playstyles. Sorry again for the long comment, and I am in no way a game designer or anything of the sort. I am just a passionate player, and am giving suggestions as to what they could possibly implement to make the game better for everyone, including rogues.

[@restinpepperonis7730]

I'm a fan of limiting the number of people playing a class that can be queue'd up per lobby for a balanced experience. (For example, with 8 classes and a 9 person lobby in the goblin caves, maybe limiting the queue to up to 2 of each class would solve the problem of 6-9 rogues in a 9 man lobby.) I come at it from a standpoint that rogue needs to be risking at least some gear to be effective as an ambush class. Even then, the skill cap is high as they can get one hit by effectively any class and a well spaced headshot. The early game and gearing phase for a rogue is tough as well. It can absolutely smash late game solo lobbies, but the amount of deaths it took to gear up and the risk involved on a glass cannon is huge still. (Just look at the price of any decent rogue item versus any other class.) Long rant, but it definitely is tough to see entire lobbies filled with just rogues.

[@cruzafix5013]

Gearing on a rogue is super easy either rush lionshead/golden chests in ruins or kill cave trolls. Or just go full grey and ambush actually proper geared players.

[@thedoctorofallmen]

i’m glad to hear you also make the same critique in ranger i had, they should look into the triple shot and maybe make the damage done while using triple shot to like 75% weapon damage instead of the full 100%

[@p4nnus]

Triple shot 75% to the body, 120% to the head. What do you think?

[@deathdealer646]

I was going to agree with this guy till he told me he's a ranger main which is just as broken and annoying to fight against. (I play all classes randomly as a casual) ranger needs a longer triple shot cool down and each arrow to hit for like 80% DMG, and no slows on hit unless you hit leg shots. (Make the perk make the slow down longer or harder). Rouge is also annoying imo there no way to counter them turning invisible (needs a noise effect when used that ppl can hear) and even if you start to win because they didn't insta kill you they just run off at mach 10 faster than all other classes. (Need to be slowed a little, not too much because they are squishy)

[@kytalksrap]

Spud, as a goblin caves player, please know you are the voice of the PEOPLE THE HERO WE NEEDED BUT DIDNT DESERVE THE MANIFESTATION OF OUR COLLECTIVE ANGUISH THE MONDAY NIGHT DELIGHT THE MAN WITH THE BIGGEST CHARM WHO’S COMING TO DO THE MOST HARM

[@culprit_glass]

make the invisibility not 100% invisible. make them 90% transparant. will force them to still use the darkness and be stealthy as they should be. not sitting in the middle of a room completely hidden waiting for the next victim

[@triggerhxppy]

^^^^

[@hubertzimnicki1770]

I am opting for it forever. And not exactly how you see it, but how Rogues were working in Dark Messiah. They were invisible as long as they were standing still, while becoming more predator - like transparent while moving, the more vivid the faster they were moving.

[@MrRunes233]

This can not be the only thing they do they absolutely have to change ambush or weakpoint as well or both as this combo with a blue castillion the third stab does into the 100s before resistances i believe it’s like 130 something so a fighter with max pdr with the weakpoint ambush third stab will still take like 80 dmg it’s fucking nuts

[@MrRunes233]

I main bard and it’s literally so oppressive bards are running castillion now just to try and compete with the rogues

[@douglastakle8242]

@@MrRunes233yeah a geared rogue doesn’t have to even surprise you, he just has to walk up to you, go invis, stack weakpoint and ambush and one/two shot you

[@BucketheadVR]

As a cleric main, rogues are the reason I get yelled at by my mates for dying

[@AllThatJazOfficial]

That's the point. Running a rogue in a 3 man is to take out the cleric, bard or ranger in the back to stop the heals train

[@BucketheadVR]

@@AllThatJazOfficial now that you mention it I have a particularly intresting moment, my team was pushing another team and we were holding the door whilst I buffed, I took a step back and had apparently stepped on an angry Rogue hive, suddenly I kept getting stabbed from every angle, being surrounded by three rogues and a team pushing us I died quite quickly, then my teammates tanked a fireball and our wizard died, and lastly our rogue managed to escape

[@Ciaurrix]

They should just make the activation of any burst damage perks only occur when you break stealth due to an attack. If stealth expires any other way, such as the timer running out, getting bumped into, taking damage, etc. You don't get those perks. In fact I think rogues should receive more damage if they receive that damage while in stealth. If the rewards are going to be as high, the risk needs to be way higher. Otherwise, if the risks are as low as they are, the rewards need to be lower too.

[@anarchybrigade1348]

This is it

[@Ciaurrix]

Also that attack should have to land. You can't whiff it and then go in.

[@shythespider5126]

Rogue main since PT4 here, ive seen the moutain tops and the valley depths of this class and a lot of this video is pretty spot on. Personally i think rogue could do with a whole rework to make him more of a trickster rather then an assassin. Even going off source material, (Dungeons and Dragons) rogues dont have to be stealthy for "sneak attack" they just need advantage, which in game terms means they need somethings to make their opponent easier to hit such as them being prone. This could translate into rogue by changing hide entirely and swapping of some of the perks and skills for other ones to incentivies a more active playstyle. For example, what if instead of smoke pot just dropping and slowing people, its instead a smoke grenade that limits vision to set up rogues for good picks. What if instead of weakpoint just being "use for more damage" it instead lowered the damage the target could inflict? Cut throat is the closest we have to this but its admittedly a little shit since why would you ever silence a wiz when you can just outright kill them with ambush + weakpoint? I could give more ideas on how rogue could be made more fun and given genuine counterplay besides just wait 30-40 seconds to enter any new room, but i'd be here all day if i did

[@grunch9690]

bro walks right into a rogue whos only ability is to kill people who walk right into him is like complaining about ranger after standing across an entire room and letting him shoot at you until u die

[@okpil22]

The subreddit has turned into this insane hive of toxicity. i really hope the devs don't look at the subreddit too much

[@MassPerfection7]

Facts and they're all rogues on there too 😭

[@e3.14c4]

Why can't the ranger trap a chest, provoking the ranger to be ahead of the curve, and setup his traps on the floor or in chests to prepare for the incoming swarm. Like he has an ability that tracks footsteps, why isn't his entire theme being used here for this? It makes so much sense to me. It would put the ranger at both a higher risk _and_ advantage, but in a SKILLFULL way, and not the raw dps kind of way. Also, the stakes raising higher since the likelihood of a ranger having been through the erea heightens fowards the final circles, increasing the quality of the match towards it's end (a property of matches I haven't seen since the playtest before the nexon garbage).

[@Metal_Beard]

"This WILL kill the game" Yes Spuddy, we already know your reputation.

[@TheSpudHunter]

I feel battered and bruised

[@bumpkin8009]

The type of guy who thinks owning a fast car makes him better

[@Rock99987]

There is also new tech with the rogue that a lot of people are unaware of. If you drink a health pot and go invis, taking damage does not take you out of invis. Not sure if it is a bug or not but either way it seems unfair

[@krysl_]

Another issue is that rogue don't have the choice, they have to play weakpoint, but ambush + weakpoint is just to big of a burst on any class. And if you remove or nerf weakpoint again they won't be able to play against the high armored barb, cleric and fighter. We need an overall tweaking and balancing. The talent tree + new skills / talent might help a lot here, we will see

[@isayaragnes8066]

Or you know, just move away from multiplier in general. Make ambush do flat damage bonus.

[@cailang753]

The thing is, they shouldn't be able to deal with armored frontlines to begin with. In basically every other game rogues/assassins should be specialized in wiping out the squishy backline but are countered by warrior/tank/fighter, but in dark and darker ambush+weakpoint kills whoever gets in range

[@krysl_]

Yeah, but since they have to think about solo, duo and trio, the balancing is kinda odd. A poison build to play against tank could be nice. And sadly, the wizard is a better assassin in Team, he can kill the backline with the invis ignite haste build rn@@cailang753

[@bouldering122]

The correct move would be nerf ambush to not scale with other perks make it a flat bonus dmg not 50% (that's fucking egregious, more on this in my comparison below) , don't allow poison to scale either flat dmg, and nerf invis from 60 sec to 30 with the same 40 sec cooldown, I actually don't even know of any other ability in any game that the duration of the buff is significantly longer than the cooldown to activate it...... imagine in D and D if you could bless yourself for 3 full days and the cooldown was a short rest...... how it feels right now. Repose really did a lot for the rogue skill level in this game, I remember when rogues barley knew to sit somewhere advantageous and would opt for a dark corner because it was dark even though they have perfect invis, nowdays people sit in doors in the middle of rooms, if a rogue chose to, they could spend more than half the entire round invis, completely invis perfect invis for 60% of a round timer is a bit much for me, id say lower the time of invis by 30 seconds at minimum and you'll see a huge drop in people playing this class. Right now the ability has the longest lasting effect in the game with similar cooldowns to other significant abilities. (you get one second wind a game without campfires and its less HP gained back than a single invis abush stab provided on the other end) a rogue gets multiple of these stabs a game, fighter gets one heal and it isnt even instant...... Comparison time: For perspective for a wizard to invis someone for a full 60 seconds would take 15 casts of invis which only comes with 4 casts base, so a wizard would have to meditate 8 times to achieve this un-continuous effect, a rouge presses one button and its ready to go again in 40 seconds the time for about 1 meditate. for anyone in the game to achieve a 50% bonus on hit effect they would require 40 strength to get the same effect of 50% dmg bonus, that a rouge gets every 40 seconds for free and even more often if they run invis potions and yes people run invis potions strictly for this bonus. So basically if I was trying to do a one to one comparison to a wizard (matching the closest abilities i can) a grey base rogue is a wizzard with 4 slots for invis that all refresh automatically and one spell slot reserved for the abush. when you cast invis it multicasts 15 times in a row and your spells auto refresh, you auto cast ambush every time you cast invis and this equated to going up to about 40 strength for a hit, much higher than any class starts off with ( only comparison is barb but the downside on that effect is substantial ) compared to a bonus for free/no downside when ever you use another benefitial effect is nutty. (another random fix that could be good is a bonus dmg multiplyer for any one hitting a rogue that came out of stealth in the last 5 seconds, would be similar to the barb tradeoff and make for actual counterplay IE you both get bonus dmg, rogue ius still at the advantage of being able to surprise but it would actually add something we could do or at least make the rogue think and not just have everyone that walks next to them in invis be completely free, if they attack someone with a weapon out from invis and they get bonked right away it should fucking hurt) Personally i don't see any abilities in the game that provide that much value in comparison for literally no downside. If you were able to see them even slightly it would also fix the class imo, the perfect invis is not something to snuff at especially when it lasts as long as it does...... another intermediate fix would be degrading invis, over the course of the 60 seconds they slowly become more and more visible until they completely uninvis, this would also help to avoid the I've been waiting for a full minute (in reality its been 51 seconds) so you push and die in the last 3 seconds of invis cause you didn't wait a full minute to push...... this would force them to use the invis actively not to just press it and chill but to press it and try to now make something happen.

[@mansy500]

We love Dark and Darker, and appreciate all your hard work Iron Mace! We just really love your game, and get a bit heated! I think it's well understood that you guys care as much as we do, but we just want to vent a bit in the meantime.

[@MrBloodyBat]

Wonderful message to IronMace! We get so heated because we're so invested in the game!

[@Watashi_wa_robottodesu]

Ambush is only 3 seconds, if the player is above average you're probably not killing them without gear

[@cloontang89]

Love your content SpudHunter. Good to see some humor come out of all this rogue meta angst lol

[@TheSpudHunter]

Gotta have a laugh

[@JonYugen]

Back during the old playtests, the game was MUCH darker and it was easy to tell the dark areas from the lit areas(atleast from what I remember). Make invis only work in slight or full darkness for a bit and see where it goes from there. Or just allow thrown light sources to reveal hidden rogues.

[@tomaldred6271]

i think the devs should play more into the hit and run rogue style, they already have dot's with poison and rupture, throwables and handbows. maybe making them more of a hit and run class to wear down and harrass rather than appear and you're dead. for me personally i enjoy the more wear down approach with a poison rogue

[@jbar6869]

This, would also not work. If they arent capable of being chased or killed themselves due to mobility, people would quit the game if a rogue appeared, stabbed them once, did 40% of their hp from bleed an poison, then kept creeping up to do it again or throw poison bleed knives at their back when they try to escape. I say, make it skillfull. Reduce rogue mobility by 15%, remove double jump, and in place of bleed, give them a dash ability that comes up every 7-8 seconds. no more wittling away or instant burst kills, fight in their face, dip an dodge in an out, give both parties a chance for out plays or mistakes, this way fighters or barbarians wont be locked out of having any fun at all.

[@GabumaneTV]

I miss poison build so much

[@tomaldred6271]

@@jbar6869 being hard to catch is a rogue trait though in any RPG Rogues are always glass cannons and hit and runners they need an escape or mobility. I'm not sure how they could play without it and still be classed as a rogue and giving them a fighters sprint only turns them into a sub class of fighter. So I proposed you lower their damage but give them more dot's with less instant burst damage

[@imDezrt]

@@tomaldred6271 Seems then that a base HP reduction would work. They're already powerful and have mobility with the current meta, the problem is they can just tank hits while they kill you. Lower HP would force Rogue to play more tactically; the stabs would need to be more opportunistic and measured than hitting W+M1. It would move rogue from uncontested winner in all PVP scenarios to "competitive" / high tier

[@jbar6869]

@@tomaldred6271 In a game like dark an darker where theres so much damage regardless whats done, or how its done, You cannot make rogue a dot class. Making a rogue a poke an run class, would only ruin the entire game further an make half the people quit entirely. Everyone would run full agility sets, buy 20 throwing knifes, and just poke you to death while running 100 miles an hour an never be capable of being touched. If you make a class completely untouchable, then the game is ruined, because no one will play anything but that class. If i got hit with 1 knife, an i lost half my health an tried to run, then they just run circles around me throwing knifes at me till i dropped dead, thatd be it for me, an the game would be dead to me.

[@AutumnParabellum]

I totally agree but remember, the Devs said they aren't balancing the game around solo. It is mainly balanced around 3v3 so it seems waaaay worse in Gobbo caves but does STILL EXIST in 3's and has no realistic reliable counterplay.

[@IamPurezz]

Great video and content as usual, just one point. You mentioned everyone having humility.. do you really think this is the case? From my experience people abusing broken archetypes in games get a kick out of it, think they are better and deserve to win, no humility in sight.

[@TheSpudHunter]

More about "nerf everything except my main" discourse is what I meant

[@IamPurezz]

@@TheSpudHunter well, we got a patch so let's see how it goes :)

[@drawnsequence]

4:20 - 4:45 For these questions; don't have a spear ready at doors. You need to stay maneuverable to be able to at least deny headshots. Spear speed makes you an easily stab-able sitting duck up close. You have a better chance using a decent arming sword as your maneuverability and ability to return damage greatly increases AND you should turn off lights behind you, not just on top of you and be aware of what angles you're completely shrouded by the darkness though I'm sure you know that. If you can get them to doink a wall with their first hit, their rogue lives are forfeit. If they hit your body, you still have a solid chance if you stick to shadows and lean on the Arming Sword's angled swings. He landed every single hit with a Rondel with the first one being a headshot largely because of your spear attack speed, he didn't even need light to know where you were.

[@trime1015]

The counterplay is to fake opening a door so he pops his invis, then laugh at the hypothetical rogue over VoiP and run/wait in front of the door.

[@fabianvasquez8502]

Wow dude, great gameplay 🤯🤯🤯

[@douglastakle8242]

But not dying is just fine, they dont get punished they just leave.

[@AlphaMelGibson]

No, you are not gonna know he is there... It has to go... the stealth and burst dmg is bs.

[@dig_deep_]

guys I think he's making a joke

[@trime1015]

Yeah no, that is literally the entire rogue archetype lol. Way too radical..@@AlphaMelGibson

[@bro_adway]

But spud, even after they finally balance the classes. The community is still going to take legendary gear into normal goblin caves as a lv20 with 4 perks fighting against mostly lv4, greys with 1 perk. 😂 and I would make the gathering hall argument and go dungeon. But for some reason all the geared players seem to be in discord 3 stacks already. Don't know what that's about. Your wisdom and knowledge on the subject would be appreciated. Dare I say it, could SBMM be a solution? I'd say once lv15, you can only go highroller, but a bad snowball could ruin a whole character. Maybe a gear check for normals and If you want to take something juiced, say blues and higher, you have to go highroller. Could really open more specific builds for classes too. Trying to come in right under the gear check with +1 all on everything green or +3 strength on every piece, etc. Because let's be honest, MOST players do not get one blue item and go in. They usually save up a nice kit and take it all. Rogue is OP for sure, but honestly I felt myself running it more lately just for the fact that a stealth burst attack is the ONLY way I'd survive a final circle closing with someone who should 100% be in highroller. I'd feel differently if I died to the Juicers and noticed their name in the feed 6 times. But something about barely making it to the end on a default run, snagging a kill along the way, decent loot to sale and gear up. Then dying to a guy who has been looting the backrooms all game bullying anyone who dares to stay till final zone with pure gear check. FeelsBadMan

[@dig_deep_]

Good news about your first point, in hotfix 12 last week this change was implemented: "Characters lvl 14 and under will be placed in a seperate matching pool. If any member of a party is lvl 15 or above, the entire party will be placed in the lvl 15+ matching pool." Doesn't account for gear but it's a start.

[@bro_adway]

@@dig_deep_ this is big. tyty.

[@GameswithDeath]

I have never gotten more than 10 meters from spawn without being killed by a rougue. Rouge and Rouguer.

[@AndySlaps]

THE elevator play to get on top of the rock was fire! As for thoughts, I love rogue but compared to other classes seems the investment is very minimal to be effective. I love the invisibility and stealth aspects of the character for pick pocketing and trolling etc. So I feel like maybe the ambush perk should be reverted. Maybe increase steps taken while invisible but you do less damage after coming out of it to prevent door camping. Rogue does good damage, I don't think that we need an extra burst after being invisible. Also i feel like removing the ambush perk / reworking it would not hurt the rogue much. It would prevent 1-2 shots from happening as often but I think the class would be fine. I'm all for nerfing ambush dmg. Love the stealth, and sneaky side of rogue but I don't think rogue needs to do 50% more dmg after coming out of stealth.

[@TheSpudHunter]

Hopefully see reworks soon

[@GGFOTN]

@@TheSpudHunter How about today? Rogues just got nerfed

[@TheSpudHunter]

Before you write an angry comment, watch the whole video...

[@Metal_Beard]

Dont tell me what to do. I'll sick spiffer mommy on you. >:(

[@TheSpudHunter]

:o@@Metal_Beard

[@MrKeyalis]

Man you know this game so well, I agree with you man. So many people just scream nerf this nerf that

[@maszkar2087]

just add true vision pots/spells to the game

[@Constrict0r]

@@maszkar2087 They still get the 100% dmg bonus and armor pen even if you know where they are.

[@chost-059]

Rogue needs a rework, its just designed in a way that makes it inherently unfun to play against

[@thatainthay]

Honestly, I appreciate how open minded and caring you are being when discussing rogues and offering understanding of their POV - because I absolutely feel there is no discussion here at all, that it is so blatantly imbalanced and broken that anyone defending this playstyle is a self absorbed lunatic. Not only do I think it's stupid how I lose to a Rogue, but I think it is EQUALLY stupid how I WIN with a Rogue, because the latter usually requires no real effort on my part. Yesterday my friend and I did an experiment and just immediately rushed spawn points off every game start in Ruins, 80% of other teams were doing the exact same thing, all grey item duo rogue teams, just face dive into spawns hoping to quick decimate some cape-wearers and if it doesn't work, rinse repeat until it does with no real cost. It's easily become the most goofy gameplay since alpha.

[@woundedhealer5416]

Any time something is broken, the people who benefit from it will rabidly defend it. They don't care about balance, they just care about their cheap advantage.

[@gustavomarcondes3908]

There are many clips that you've shown as example of Ambush being op, however in most of them, the ambush of the enemy rogue has either worn out before attacking or YOUR ambush has ran out before you started attacking him. In the video where you chased a ranger, your ambush was out before stabbing him, having to stab 7 times before he died. He missed ALL OF HIS ARROWS so you didn't take any damage. If he had pulled out a decent spear instead of trying to shot you at blank range. It is more likely he would've killed you before you stabbed him 7 times. Besides, the ranger SHOULD lose combat when the enemy reaches blank range, but he usually wins in mid to long range combat. He didn't take advantage of the distance he initially had againts you and died. Aalso if the ranger doen't want to be easily caught of guard by rogues, the tracker feat is made for that. In another video where a rogue appeared in front of you and you did a rogue X rogue, his ambuish ran out before he hit you, and the fact that he survived your 3 hits, while you didn't survive his could most likely be explained in the areas that he hit you in compared to the areas where you hit him (you hit his arm and torso, while his last hit hit you on the head). The other "one shot" clips, i totally agree with them, though. Sadly when a rogue's in the lobby you always have to stay on your toes. I always unequip my boots so i can make less noise and hear the enemy properly. Haven't been caught by surprise by rogues in about 2 weeks. But it doesn't mean it's ok.

[@Raclawgra]

Whenever I mention on dc that we have balance issues with rogues and rangers, the usual answers are "skill issue". With that attitude, the game will run dry very quickly.

[@GravitasZero]

The community became so toxic so quickly it’s insane. A few weeks back i’d propose certain changes and quite a few stalked the subreddit and discord just to call out “skill issue”… some of my similar ideas, like nerfing bard buffs, making Xbow a perk on rogue and lower-level lobbies (for noobs to learn while separated from the seal clubbing unemployed toxic gatekeepers) were implemented but not before the toxic asshats tried to shit on it (they’d say “cry more”, even though I was only pointing things out and not outright complaining, and then cried and whined when they saw the changes. Truly unself-aware and hypocritical).

[@trime1015]

What about "Hitting a rogue _before_ _he_ _hits_ _you_ while he has his ambush, weakpoint attack, riposte etc. perks/ability up, cancels those?" Would keep the stealth burst architype, but increases the risk for that playstyle and rewards people that are ready.

[@rhysroxs01]

Because finding the Rogue to begin with is iffy, and then they'd just pop out of stealth right before you hit them, and still one tap you.

[@trime1015]

They'd have to be literally on you to do that without moving, at which point rogue should f*ck you up imo. In almost all the examples here you'd have time to swing if you have a general idea of where the rogue is going to come from (aka behind the door) so you would win the head-on fight if you are cautious.@@rhysroxs01

[@leeroyjenkins2923]

04:40 "WhAtS yOu suPPoSeD tO Do?!?!" Eh.. don't enter that door? Place trap? Use Molotov and then open the door? Use buffs before you open it? I don't know man, it's not like when Rogue uses hide he disappears from the world and you can't even HEAR him... Edit: Also, rangers have increased hearing and they can see footprints that lead to "empty spaces"...

[@leeroyjenkins2923]

As for damage reduction nerf of fighters. Basically rogues, rangers, mages and clerics still could do MASSIVE damage to the fighters via dealing magic damage, divine damage, damage reduce abilities (hello, rogue and rangers have those) and etc. Idk, it's not about infinite nerfs. It's about changing the system globally.

[@cacodemon9219]

Lmao that katie clip, certified rogue moment

[@rentonneureka]

As a rogue player, I personally cannot fathom why people think the class is so overpowered, because it's not. Is the Ambush + WP combo strong? Sure. Is it overpowered? Absolutely not. It's just usable, that's all. Everything else in the class is unusable, they have one combo that works. It just happens that it's a slightly cheesy combo that preys on people's inability to react, aim, or plan ahead. It still takes 2 to 3 (or sometimes more) hits to kill a player with Ambush + WP. And basically every class, minus the poor solo wizards, can react and still win a the fight. It's practically impossible to headshot someone with a dagger because of their absolute piss poor range, unless you're using a Rapier. So the average damage of a blue dagger, without any other added damage, while using Ambush + WP is going to be around 55~. Is that REALLY that strong? No, it's not. A rogue has to use both their skills, and wait for you to be dumb enough to bumble into their negative melee range, in order to do the same thing every other class does by default. A fighter with a gray arming sword, can 2-3 shot most classes. A barb with basically any gray weapon will do the same. A Rogue with a blue dagger, and using both their skills, will 2-3 shot most classes. Someone, please, tell me how this is overpowered? Because anyone with a brain can see that it's not. It honestly feels like all the people complaining about rogue being too strong are just horrible at the game and cannot aim or react, or they're playing a solo wizard, which dies in one hit from EVERYTHING. Because every class other than Wizard CAN react and win a fight against a rogue that ambushed them. You can either run away, or hit them one single time in the head. If they have no armor, making it easy for them to chase you, just hit them ONE TIME in the head and they're dead to basically every single weapon. If they're wearing armor, they likely won't be able to catch you with their weapon out. There are so many options to counter rogues, but it seems that everyone always does the same exact thing, which is slowly panic walk backwards while missing every attack after the rogue appears, letting them sprint into melee range, then whining that stealth is so OP. But EVERY class has the option of using an invis pot, and a green invis pot will last as long as a rogues stealth because of their negative buff-duration. I'll be the first to admit, I'm pretty awful at this game, but the fact that people complain about one of the weakest melee classes in the game that has the second lowest base HP, the absolute lowest range in the entire game, and has the lowest base damage weapons in the entire game just absolutely boggles my mind. If you stumble into a stealth'd rogues melee range, then slowly backpedal away, you deserve to die. It's just that simple. If you slowly walk backwards, giving them the one single opportunity where they can actually land a headshot on you, YOU DESERVE TO DIE. The only people that have a right to complain about Rogues are the solo wizards, because they've been nerfed into the ground, and they're the only class that is actually weaker than rogue. Every other class is miles better than Rogue, and Ranger's have no right to complain about anything, that class is absolutely disgusting. But, of course rangers will complain about the single class that actually has the options to counter their broken ass, top tier class.

[@JonasPetterson-ws9th]

Bro instead of writing all of that, go learn a class that requires skill now that the class is gutted.

[@rentonneureka]

@@JonasPetterson-ws9th you want me to play an easier class that requires less skill...? Every class other than wiz is far easier and requires 1/10 of the skill. Rogue is easily the hardest melee class in the game.

[@JonasPetterson-ws9th]

@@rentonneureka Cope rogue main

[@TheRealKinetic-q1t]

Spud, heres a challenge, create patch notes (as if you had the power to change/add anything) that you think would improve the game.

[@TheSpudHunter]

That's stressful haha

[@rest956]

at 4:23 you say its stupid , but hes playing his class the way its meant to be played , he caught you off guard without your bow out and got you, all i see here is a skill issue

[@ksenchy]

Great video and editing skills. Keep up the good work mate. 🎉

[@showlate1]

not my style but sure

[@Hectorlph]

They really just need to adjust the weapon damage and damage+ stats and how it scales for Rogue because I think it scales higher than one to one. The devs have talked about this. I LOVE rogue, but I honestly love the escaping aspect more than anything. In high roller, how else are you supposed to survive a trio Bard + Fighter + Cleric? If they see you, they will chase you until you die. If they have line of sight, you'll get shot in the head by a longbow. I feel the reason people play Rogue is because they have the best way to avoid fighting in general. I hope they will push more into the utility aspect of rogues and make their damage bonus more based on backstabbing than ambush. We need more utility options like pickpocket not breaking stealth if touched to incentivize something other than the literal only build that can kill players (weakpoint + ambush). I think the truth is that the devs are swamped and that this balance patch wasn't supposed to last as long as it has before new content comes and refreshes the meta a bit. Last note: I've only met one nice ranger ever, but many nice rogues :3. The naked geared guys are just there to chill and have fun.

[@tvlkn9130]

Community is what killed the game for me, doesn't matter what point you make or suggestion the community response is the same 'skill issue, you're trash at the game' (even though sometimes those suggestions get implimented and then suddenly those were great ideas all along and omg tthe dev's are so clever for putting that in).

[@pingu8015]

real

[@GravitasZero]

Oh man, I remember suggesting a pre-15 lobby (I was actually suggesting pre-10, even more tame) and got called out for “skill issue” and “no safe spaces for noobs”… Jesus, people need to learn to compensate for “skill issue”. How could they learn when wank*rs like those guys rushed them with god-rolls gear and killed them in 2 seconds within the first 2 minutes of a match. After a few matches like that most new players would probably just bugger off and recommend people stay away from the game. Those toxic unemployed gatekeepers never want to accept how terrible THEY are, as people, for the game itself.

[@Hair_Wizard]

It's not fun for Rogues either. I literally avoid playing rogue now because, like you said, the only viable thing they have that works to compete against the range of rangers, barbarians massive amounts of health, and Fighter's Second Wind (which I think needs a good nerf) is sitting in a corner for 40 seconds, looking at my phone because I'm bored, and having high enough burst damage to counteract the strengths of other classes. Specifically in Fighter's case, it's the only thing that does enough damage to not make them nigh immortal once per run. In DND, Rogues are really good at burst damage. They're also good at illusions, and not getting hit. I think removing ambush, giving a skill that creates duplicates or makes illusions, and giving them a parry/dodge mechanic (that isn't backroll because we all know why we don't use that) such as Uncanny Dodge (maybe they take half damage for one attack and enemy attack speed is drastically slowed for a few seconds if it's timed right) would make the class much more interesting to interact with. Edit: also give rogues a reason to dual wield because right now there is no reason you should ever be using more than 1 of your slots for anything

[@Seeyeay]

Rogues were op in the playtest and instead of nerfing or reworking them the devs removed a vast majority of the high ground areas in ruins in order to prevent this. Which means the community lost out over the people who play rogue. Now rogues are ruining pre release, wonder how th ecommunity will be effected once again due to this

[@BFMan1993]

As a rogue main myself, I will readily admit that Rupture plus ambush and a Castillion dagger's third swing/stab animation with the base kit deals 93 damage (on head shot). It takes skill to land it but if you do you pretty much one shot any mage, most rangers, and some fighters (not using dmg reduction perks)... If you use the 10% dagger damage perk you can hit for 100-105 base kit damage on the hit I described earlier. With the best dagger I had thus far this patch I got that damage up to 143 on head shot third swing Castillion proc... That said there have been some substantial rogue nerfs. Look at poison reductions, hand crossbow having to be a perk slot now, etc.

[@crocsbait]

I remember the game was really hard in the playtest, and it was part of the attraction, nowadays people want to casually stroll around or put out torches, make campfires, without anyone attacking them while they stop to smell the flowers... because PVE became easy and exploitable (without ambush, the PVP becomes just buff up before fight if you can so you can stat check the gear)

[@Watashi_wa_robottodesu]

I want the game to be able to have growth, not toxic NO CHANGES. the game is still hard idk what you're talking about,I run into more juiced whales in lobbies now which is fine. The PvP meta is a joke Rn just get a cleric bard and barb/fighter and you can roll the whole lobby

[@amuro5992]

And yet the current ambush meta just turns this game into minesweeper. Its not fun for anyone including the rogues that squats behind a door for half the match hoping someone will walk through it.

[@BeIemnoidea]

Yeah as a cleric and barb main I basically walk around constantly swinging a warmaul back a forth and you would be surprised on how many invisible rouges I find, luckily if they are already missing health and crouching then the headshot 1 taps them before they even come out of hiding

[@BlueTargetVids]

I’d love to see the Rogue invisibility be similar to how camo works in Halo, or similar to The Predator - you can kinda see the player if you are looking hard enough, but you can absolutely still catch people by surprise with good positioning or timing.

[@Tancredi1313]

Yeah the burst is obscene if you have any gear. It's actually not fun as a rogue since once you burst someone down, you are legit useless for the next 40 seconds. Countless times in Gobo I will kill someone, only to be killed by a third party since I am now useless unless I sprint off to the darkness. Rogues burst should be nerfed (no more ambush certainly), but the trade-off that could make them more appealing would be increased mobility (tumble directions), increased combat utility (slow or anti-heal poison), passive lock picking, passive quiet steps, revised stealth mechanic (shadows need to stealth a rogue, people should have to play around torches and light. Should be irrelevant if someone has done some dirty graphic update to turn shadows off, rogues should be able to stealth in them. Ranger should be able to also get a passive stealth in shadows if they don't move imo). And FFS take the stealth bump off. Dumbest mechanic ever in the current meta. Right now if you bump a rogue and you are dead anyway? I think there could be 3 builds. 1. Stealth/Ninja - team/troll build - Stealth builds should be a more scout/utility. They should have a REASON to turn off lamps (get stealth) Ability to set traps, turn off lights from a distance (think Thief water arrows but maybe a wrist slingshot that does VERY little dmg and can't trigger poison). Smoke bomb should stealth them. It should be about creating the environment for the next fight for a team. Maybe ability to drop punji-stick traps. Some more caltrop-like abilities to help CC/debuff an enemy team at melee. Pocket sand? Maybe a 5 second CC sap from stealth that would break if anyone hits them? A survive-at-all-costs build that is annoying to play against and forces people to choose to chase down someone who does little damage, or to switch to a different target and fear that the rogue will attack you but not ONE SHOT you. Meant for a team since solo you will get rekt but it's POSSIBLE to kill someone. 2. Make a poison build should focus on using different items to keep applying poison (hand crossbow / rapier / throwing knives / blowdart). Different types of poisons and rupture scales with magic dmg. Maybe create poison darts that have different effects for a blowdart gun. Would be a hybrid ranged rogue that if is caught in melee is fairly weak. More offensive then stealth, but still does not have the burst/survivability for solo play unless you dance around or have great +magic dmg builds. We can call this Teemo. People will hate it, but it could be balanced. 3. I think something to aim for solo play would be a swashbuckler build (think pirate with a parry dagger (melee defense) / pocket sand (melee defense) / caltrops / bombs (apply slow / bleed) / smoke bomb (range defense)). A hyper mobile build based around gorilla combat and superior positioning. Balances them to survive fighter barb/ but also has mobility and a few gap closers to get to a ranger / rogue (directional tumble / dash. You still are the lowest melee, but if you play right (sand them / hit a nasty parry), you can win. A jack of all trades that if played skillfully, can survive and also has some damage to kill in melee distance. Should be an advanced class so not EVERYONE is running it since you NEED to land parries / sand / well timed mobility use. Current rogue certainly is anti-fun and any other build outside of ambush is pretty garbage. Tumble is a meme. Getting one shot by a fighter / barb is stupid when you can't do SHIT in melee other than all-in atm. No real gap closers means wizards / rangers destroy you if you are out of stealth and more then 4 feet away. Should honestly be disabled in it's current state since it's such a joke of a character.

[@BOARD13]

Rouge main since first play test. Should gut the kit needs a rework, I run grey kit no pants and dumpster on a fair majority of the competition unless i run into a three stack of lobsters. A good replacement for ambush would be what they did with Achilles Strike. Just make it slow the target for 3-6 seconds and drop the dmg. Fits with the idea of it being an /Ambush/. 🤷

[@carib3829]

A lil guide for the commentors 🤣 Rouge(French btw): A red or pink cosmetic for coloring the cheeks or lips. A reddish powder, chiefly ferric oxide, used to polish metals or glass. Rogue: An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.

[@Cwistoph2000]

We’ve all played a game as a non rogue or even a rogue where you sweat for 8 minutes killing goblins/skeles and other players, get a full bag of loot that is neatly organized, find a portal and then get one tapped by a fully loaded rogue in normals who has absolutely nothing in their bag. They got rewarded for basically not playing the game. I always joke with my friends that the rogue will be my smoke a joint class. Roll it, light it, and camp like I’m theo vonn baby

[@sordmasta6646]

When i used to play before early release you could spot a rogue with the ranger tracking perk. Can't you do that any more? They could add a "sense danger" perk for ranger and barbarian where you get a "highlander sound effect" whenever a stealthed rogue is around and you would negate any "from stealth" bonuses the rogue might have. In case anyone is wondering, since the official release i cannot play this game with my R9 390, run via any dx, or any drivers version. So if anyone has any fix for that, i'm all ears. or... eyes rather.

[@kaoticshadow]

I love rogue, but miss the old builds. It's why I want a return to the hybrid damage, non-stealth, gigachad build. You run at people with rupture and weakpoint and outplay them with your mobility and spacing. You might not kill them in 1-2 hits unless they're naked, but you whittle them down with both attacks and DoTs (rupture/poison wepaon). They would need to make rupture do magic damage to accommodate the hybrid build though (so it works alongside poison weapon). It might also require changing the rogue stats a bit, but I'm unsure at this point as I don't remember the entirety of how it was during the old playtests.

[@sirrealism7300]

I gotta be honest, rogues in the dark forest surrounding old ruins at the outskirts of a village feels so on brand for this game. If they leave rogues in as they are theres gonna be people making bandit gangs and have you pay a toll for the down portal.

[@SirBlues-wz7ld]

Have ambush proc after 25ish seconds of being invisible. Will that stop the rouge surprise corner stab no. But it will stop them form using it mid combat to get an easy 50% more damage. As for weakpoint not gonna touch the 50% more damage aspect of it but I feel it needs to be a big commitment on the rouges side. Now hear me out 5 seconds seems short enough as it is as we saw with the last nerf but that was wizard. We're talking about dagger speed, I feel like weakpoint should only last 3 seconds. At dagger speed that is still incredibly generous if you stick to your target and don't stab and then do the back and fourth dance. If you want to ignore 40% of their armor then commit to the bastard you're stabbing

[@samharding3630]

I Agree as Rogue Main. Ill list some changes that could help, 1. Remove the 50% Weapon damage aspect of Weakpoint attack 2. Make Ambush 20% increased damage out of stealth for 3 seconds, instead of 50% on one hit for 3 seconds 3. Lower Time allowed stealth by 10-15 seconds 3. Revert the hand crossbow, and stealth nerf (getting touched) 4. Make Tumble a viable perk, and maybe change Creep ( doesnt seem to work as intended), this will help pick pocket rogue

[@seraphim341]

If they don't mind some longer fights, I wouldn't mind seeing a stealth change. Maybe give it 2 charges after the initial break of stealth where you can weave in and out of combat for short periods of time. After breaking stealth, for the next 6 seconds(possibly too much), you can activate stealth 2 more times. I understand wanting the burst damage from stealth as a squishier character trying to deal with some of the hard hitters, but it's obviously too much damage. If they lowered the damage and focused on longer fights, reworking stealth and visiting other avenues as you mentioned would be ideal. Having a more aggressive stealth option would be exciting, even to play against, as long as the damage is balanced.....maybe even get rid of ambush or grant action speed or move speed instead of damage.

[@jquikshot]

id recommend 5 charges of invis instead of a cooldown. they have to be more tactical with invis and then campfire to get them back.

[@JonYugen]

Honestly, it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[@dragon55001]

increase every classes base hp by 50% and maybe even apply a global -20% damage modifier across the board and the game becomes easier to balance. The low hp pools and high damage across all classes is the reason why rat tactics are so prevalent, its usually the person who lands their dmg first that wins. Honestly tho they could also make torches unstealth rogues at a 1-2 meter range and give them hand crossbows back natively and also maybe just give them the quiet footsteps when crouched as a native part of the class? I think the main problem is, is the fact that there isn't a universal way to deal with rogues other than just wait and see if they come out of stealth eventually.

[@sweatystoner]

brother i agree rogues needed a nerf but if you think bringing 10 stacks of arrows and 8 traps is balanced as a ranger then you are so lost in the sauce that you need to take a step back and look at it again

[@deactivated3522]

tripleshots arrows should do 50%-75% of the dmg of original arrows. would make it less op

[@elicgray5966]

Literally just got one tapped by a geared rogue in gobo caves and I was all green and blues as a fighter.. that shouldn’t be possible

[@narhwallord6985]

Hmm, my problem with this is that the game isn't balanced around Goblin caves. Rogues are essentially 'assassins' they are meant to be the best 1v1 class, lmao. Rogue is definitely a lot worse in 3v3s, where there are a lot more tools to deal with them

[@Los-ei3vn]

They want him to be stealthy but are going about it in really lazy ways imo. Give rogue the ability to hide, he can still Keep his invisibility but it shouldn't be longer than 25 seconds. When I say hide I mean actually hide, under the old bed frames in rooms in the crypt, hell let him jump inside the larger chest variants and close them, maybe behind the shrines that are in a hole in the wall in those hallways as well? I think that movement spreading outside of rogues is where this game gets crazy. I see no reason why barbarian shouldn't have a straight forward charge, or why Wizard shouldn't be able to find magic circles on the ground that teleport you to significant places on the map, like where the cockatrice is on the other map or the Lich room, or even the troll in the goblin caves ya know? So much potential this game will shake the world if they realize even half of it. Imagine a 6 six player PARTY dungeon that you have to enter a solo queue for, we'd see something completely new there. 6 strangers in a dungeon together with VoIP?

[@MikeDolanFliss]

I don't play this game - just a Spuddy fan - but I'm reminded of spy TF2 dynamics. Maybe if the ambush perk only kicked in with hits to the back - if you're staring at a door unknowing and they come at you face first, that damage shouldn't be increased.

[@Neopopulist]

I’ve been playing this game since the beginning I also main ranger. I’m so tired of everyone saying ranger is the most broken class when we literally have 1000 counters do you wanna know what the real broken classes are? Classes like cleric warlock bard and fighter. Before last night I had NEVER played warlock or cleric out of spite because I KNEW they were too easy and broken. I started my first cleric last night with the focus on building his gear set towards the meme staff bonk build? Any ideas on how I did? I won 40+ fights in a row….. rangers are not the problem, people who say that have very low IQ and don’t understand how to countryplay AT ALL. Next I tried warlock with the idea of playing nuclear warlock… in 12 games I got a build going that did 182 damage with one swing of crystal sword to the head, now tell me how a ranger could ever hope to counter that or even be as near that strong? This player base sucks and I don’t enjoy the game anymore. /rant

[@brandoncollins1768]

IMAGINE RIGHT complaining about the rogues damage when they build weapon damage what do you expect to happen him to hit like paper ?

[@ls-vsa]

I think moving the burst into poisons is a good way to do it - very on-brand I think they should have conditional stealth (unconditional stealth seems to be toxic in any game it appears when combined with dmg) so players can better predict when they are safe and when a rogue/invis pot might be hiding - like a perk that provides stealth in dark areas and provides 1~2 seconds of stealth when leaving the dark area. You could hop from shadow to shadow to maintain stealth and fire off poison darts, smoke bombs, and other creative ways to disorient and pick off players

[@talen_hawk]

the shocked scream at 9:56 was just perfect

[@kostadinbodurov7430]

We all agree burst damage and stacking weapon damage is broken... Also armor should be more effective versus dagger weapons for all classes not only for Fighter.

[@Cramblit]

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but I 100% believe this... HP needs to be increased across the board more, and damage lowered. If fights took much longer, there would be way more room for developers to balance and fine tune, as well as making fights be more about skill and expression, not just who has the most OP armor.. With longer fights, those players in better armor can make more mistakes, creating openings for the under dog to punch up in his weight. ------------------ This also allows for major balance fixes that need to be addressed, without pidgeon holing everything. It's easier to balance a blade on its side, than on its edge, and game balance is no difference.. If everything is so tightly wound in numbers, that even a slight change here or there causes major meta shifts, or balance issues, or touching 1 or 2 skills suddenly throws another thing completely out of balance, there is a problem.. There isn't enough room for the developers to truly balance anything. If HP and armor is buffed (not fighter armor, just armor in general at the low curve of things), and damage reduced, to make fights last much longer many things can be far more easily fixed: - Heals can be more easily balanced so they are strong, and effective in fights, but not be auto wins, or memes. - Rogues can still be alpha damage ambushers, without being 1 shot meme machines, or useless, being their only 2 options. - Rangers can be properly balanced around being the support/deterrence, without being the 1 shot meme machines themselves, and not having to rely on gimmick nerfs, or buffs to make them viable. - Mages as well get to be able to actually function, without gimmick nerfs, and buffs, and changes, and the damage of spells, etc. can be properly dialed in. Fights need to last longer. HP and defense needs to go up, and damage down for most things, so everything else can be given room to properly be moved around in numbers, to get that sweet spot, while allowing skill expression to exist.

[@JFrogy]

Low level rogues are incredibly weak without perks. Mid game they are strong, late game they are weak again due to players armor and larger health pools. Rangers should always lose 1v1 close ranged battles if a rouge has a jump on them and they miss triple shot

[@st0ra5]

Played playtest as ranger then switched to wizard and after sometime in early access I just went and started playing rogue, It suits me but regarding is he overpowered or not, the stealth skill needs some work to do, either rework the perks that gives you damage buff coming from stealth or make stealth in certain conditions full invisible and in certain conditions like a translucent effect like if you don't pay attention you won't see it or something like that, but leave the full invis with nearby players because if you don't... rogue will always die when you need to escape or ''outplay'' hope my brainstorming is not very confusing. P.S It's only my opinion

[@shivahaze9014]

Sounds like a skill issue. Nerf Ranger.

[@skunkdonkygaming5728]

As a person who has lvled every class to lvl20 I was surprised they did not nerf rogues when they nerfed the buff ball and wizard but I hope they do something with rogues these Friday

[@zacharyjackson1829]

Im gonna be real, I think there's a lot of changes that would benefit this game, i would start with making it to where you have all 4 perk slots from the very beginning. some classes are WAY too dependent on those perks than others and what changes i recommend next are dependent on them doing this nerf rogue's burst, including bringing Ambush down to maybe 25% dmg increase as well, BUT make the class less squishy. as it stands one curse of pain or goblin poison can take off like a quarter to half your health and that is stupid rediculous. make them more survivable and improve the deception they can use mid fight to be the focus. Hide and Rupture/Weakpoint should not be a default must picks. Ranger, make it to where you can still move while trapped by the bear trapped but you have reduced speed until you remove it off your foot. this will at least let victims close doors and/or get to cover before taking a triple shot to the face. everything else is relatively fine although the stagger on movement that arrows have needs to be tweeked/removed Barbarian, mostly fine. the class feels average and that's a good thing, everything should feel on par like where barb is now. not too strong but has it's own niche with weaknesses that can be overcome wizard, for god's sake rework meditation so that you can actually hear shit while meditating. if you want to make it loud as hell that's cool but damn it tone the deaf effect down a lot. power wise they are fine as they are now. Fighter, feels fine although i'd slow down the rate of Second Wind healing. the perks need some serious love since some of them are questionable. Sprint and Second Wind should not be default must-picks for skills, id prefer they just buff most of the other options Cleric, Feels okay and like barb is on par for being average which is good. Is is a class that needs to self buff to fight 1v1 against other focused melee classes and I like that balancing. i would prefer more skill options but things are okay for now. bard is being reworked/nerfed to the ground so no comments needed there warlock, is not complete so again no comment other than they feel maybe a little strong with certain builds and BoC so maybe tone down BoC and magic healing. Warlocks should not be destroying fighters and barbs in "fair" 1v1 fights jsut because BoC is so stupid strong and ignores armor.

[@Jar253]

Rogue’s base Agility decreased from 35 → 30. Rogue’s base Resourcefullness increased from 15 → 20. Rogue’s Ambush perk damage bonus decreased from 50% → 30%. Rogue’s Hide base duration decreased from 60s → 20s. Rogue now has Hide Mastery Perk that increases their hide duration. Rogue’s Weakpoint Attack’s 50% Weapon Damage Bonus on the initial attack has been removed. Rogue’s Weakpoint Attack’s Armor rating debuff has been reduced from -40% → -25%. Rogue’s Weakpoint Attack’s Duration 5s → 3s. Reduced the damage of all daggers. well thay got fixed lol

[@kyleschulze4557]

the issue is the number of perks and skills that the rogue gives for extra damage that have fully gone untouched in every patch. the rogues daggers are relatively low damage with fast attack speed. generally speaking if a rogue hits you from behind your getting 2 hits off minimum before the enemy can even do anything. the issue with that is that most of your damage comes from gear and the perks / skills. meaning daggers having low base damage means nothing. you can make daggers hit upwards of 60 on a body shot with no perks or skills. which puts it then at 90 for a head shot. Then adding perks and skills to that your getting about 160-180 damage in 1 headshot. Mind this is with just blues in nearly everyslot with just weapon damage on each piece. the game needs to have a much longer time to kill. with no gear the time to kill is quite fair IMO. However, when you get gear the time to kill lowers so fast that it doesnt matter. if you want to play the game and not get 1 shot you basically need to be a full tank fighter, which has other issues like getting kited to oblivion. im all for stats making a character better, but when you compare just a rogue in a top tier weapon vs anything that isnt a fighter in all plate (even if its god rolled) that rogue will still 1-2 shot the player as long as they come out of stealth and hit them in the head.