Fuseboard change - discussing common controversies | Thomas Nagy

[@tlangdon12]

So glad to see you considered testing a customer install. Not all customers are numpties!

[@Mark...]

I’ve been an electrician for 20 years and I’ve just about had enough of it, the regulations are just to controlling and common sense has gone out the window. Working for yourself you need to join an “electricians club” that you need to pay an annual fee too otherwise you won’t get certain work from certain companies. Also electricians slagging each other off because they do things a different way is another thing, it seems to be one of the worst trades for this. For the information we need to learn and the manual skills we have I think the trade is underrated and under appreciated as lots of people think all you do all day is changes sockets and switches and they have their best mate Dave for that who will do it for a few pints down the pub. I think I need a job change before it’s too late. 😏

[@thelifeofripple245]

CaptainKidd2006 - AMEN!!!

[@christopherhager5070]

Same as that! Sick of pricing jobs to do them properly, then get undercut by 75% by some knob who doesn’t care or knows what he’s doing.......a 5 day spark usually!

[@christopherhager5070]

Same as that! Sick of pricing jobs to do them properly, then get undercut by 75% by some knob who doesn’t care or knows what he’s doing.......a 5 day spark usually!

[@HandyKindaGuyUK]

I agree with this. I have however been involved in a tribunal where an electrician out a couple of customers at risk. It sucked because I knew I was about to ruin this man's life. There's a difference between doing something different and doing something dangerous.

[@jackalek]

So plumber now? 😂😂

[@ashmanelectricalservices4318]

I'm completely with you when it comes to doing a thorough EICR, a typical EICR should take about half a working day.

[@ashmanelectricalservices4318]

@M H You can call it want you want, I've done enough to how much time a typical EICR takes. There's no requirement to inspect behind every single socket-outlet or lighting point. Continuity of bonding to gas and water should take a whole 10 minutes. Wiring in the loft doesn't have to be inspected unless specifically requested by the client.

[@TheDaf95xf]

Yes Tom I’m not an electrician but the entertainment value is priceless 👍🏻 I learn so much so it’s a big thank you from me lol 😆 I’ll let the pros do all the chit chat a listen to your remarks 🙈 Thanks Stevie

[@kamuts7]

Ive never seen an electrician’s video that interesting, well done Tom, hence Subscribed.

[@jamielightfoot8167]

I fully agree running the smoke alarms of the lighting circuit. the amount of times home owners / who ever will just turn of the circuit breaker and forget about it. pros and cons for either way, but I prefer to take it of the lighting.

[@Justin-vr5zn]

@@gadgetman36 if all smoke detectors are all on one dedicated circuit, if something happens to that circuit you lose all your smoke alarms. also if they are on a lighting circuit and lose that circuit they should have a battery backup. theres pros and cons to any way you do it. most important thing is just that they have enough smoke / co detectors! normally where I live they are all wired to an independent circuit together and all sound off together if one goes off.

[@theworldslasthope]

Like Ashley R said below, they can’t take your mug behind their counter. It’s to avoid cross contamination happening in a food preparation area. Their own cups have been handled in a manner (probably HACCP) that means they’re safe to serve to the customer.

[@alexphotoman]

Wow I've been away for a couple of months overseas to come back to find Thomas's channel at 51000 subscribers. C'mon guys let's get him to 100000 he most definitely deserves a You Tube Silver Play Button award for the fantastic content. 💪👌

[@stonekeeper3197]

In Canada it is actually code to have it off a lighting circuit for the exact reason you state. If an independent circuit trips on the smoke it could be left in that state because it doesn’t effect day to day use. Take it off a light and the breaker trips homeowner will make sure it is looked into and fixed. Got may electrical trade in England before moving to Canada 16 years ago, your channel creates some good memories thank you.

[@dixon9]

Perfectly justifiable to run the smokes off the lights - if power is lost to the smokes it's much easier for the consumer to notice as it's obvious if the lights aren't working.

[@NOWThatsRichy]

You should have poured the coffee straight into your own cup in the store and given them the cup back, just to make your point!

[@MartiA1973]

I had to do that every day at electrical college!

[@triplexdread]

@@pingumcping Muppet

[@Camberwell86]

Yeah it's no problem we do it often. "Can you bin that please mate" "sure" it's that simple It's just they have to use a clean sterile cup to make contact with the machine The cups in my boss's van make me feel sick lmao \(^_^)/ you can't just take a tradesman's word "yeah of course it's clean I washed it Sunday night" (said on Thursday) :)

[@Aeontheosophical]

The earth in twin and earth is now pre sleeved in Ireland 🇮🇪

[@Sarcastix7]

CSA has been increased to match the other conductors too

[@asef698]

Has been for over a year?

[@Ragnar8504]

Is the earth full-sized too? I think I remember reading something about that a while ago but I'm not sure.

[@Monkeh616]

Congratulations, you now have more PVC in your walls than needed..

[@jonwilson8643]

Dooley is it right that you also cannot use standard 3core (brown black grey) and just sleeve the black and grey?

[@colinfenton]

Hi Tom, I think those down lights have an intumescent seal around the fitting but I agree with you they aren't really fire rated, I wouldn't fit them.

[@davepenton4137]

With you on the Fire Rating issue. No matter what the manufactures information is, a year down the line, another person changing the lamp, will probably not have access to that information and could fit a halogen. Also there is nothing with those open back fittings stopping fibreglass and other debris over time coming into contact with the lamp. Only time I use open fitting’s now, is in cabinet, pelmet lighting situations, and even then it’s rare as there are quite a few shallow fittings available. Just another question, I notice your installing a split board, why not RCBO’s as fault finding becomes a lot easier, and a lot less inconvenient than losing possibly 5 or 6 circuits because the RCD has tripped?

[@petehiggins33]

Is it fire rated? There's only one sure way to find out, do a John Ward on it.

[@Richardincancale]

MK thermos cup, MK panel, MK compliance sheets - are you gonna MK our day!

[@jimgeelan5949]

Hi Tom, Been with you from the start, love your approach to all your work, doing the job properly but not being up your own back side like most sparks keep them coming mate 👍

[@BEARELECTRICS.DCSPARKS]

Hi Tom those downlights aren't they supposed to have a hood to keep the insulation off them. Like as you said if someone put a incandescent bulb instead of a LED bulb that's gonna get hot and burn everything above it. I don't believe they are fire rated 😕

[@shnks9]

Hey thom, Love your videos, Just starting out on my own. I have a question regarding removing main fuses to isolate supply’s for DB changes. What’s the protocol for getting them Removed without cutting them? Would the DNO charge a fee to put an isolator in?

[@Piner5074]

Glad I’m not the only one who just watches for entertainment... not in the trade, just watch after work while eating my tea to cook, much more interesting than anything on TV. 👍

[@timsmith6029]

Thomas, I replied to another comment but i'll copy and paste this here. "As i conduct fire testing on these, you're probably the closest to being correct that i have read so far, unfortunately there are many wildly inaccurate assumptions as to what a fire test requires, and what a fire rated downlight is actually meant to achieve. My pet hate is that anyone can walk into a store and buy 90 minute downlights, take them home, fit them and think that all in the world is now safe. As a side note we, not so much lately, have had many potential clients, probably in a bedroom office, wishing to test imported downlights as they are cheap to import and pricey to buy off the shelf, the difference being potential profit, woohoo. We never hear from them again when they find out what is involved and how much it costs to get a full set of fire tests done. If you are fitting them, buy reputable brands that can prove they have the reports and the test evidence, they are expensive for a good reason. (rant over) There is no requirement for smoke reduction or leakage prevention in a ceiling fire test, only fire. As with other "fire rated" or "fire certificated" products (rather loose terms in my world) smoke can pour and billow to its hearts content, as dense as it likes as far as fire tests are concerned. There are other tests for this for different products but it's smoke that kills first. Chances are, you would not believe how fast smoke can fill a large fire test labaratory so I'm with Thomas on that alarm, might be inconvenient, tough, it;s for your own good. Get alarms, they're cheap enough. The test to BS476 consists of a ceiling section of a known fire resistance, of a design such as those in the gypsum white book, for either 30, 60 or 90 minutes such that it will resist flame spreading through the chipboard floor layer above. This has had a hole put in it which has been plugged with a downlight which has to maintain the integrity of each ceiling duration as it is the ceiling as a whole that is tested. The design of the ceiling specimen is different for each of the 30, 60, 90 minute tests, and are not interchangeable, thus a 90 minute rated downlight might not be rated at 30 minutes and vice versa. It is dependant on the ceiling into which it is fitted, so the scenario above where joe public thinks he's now safe because he has 90 minute lights fitted in his 3/8 wall board ceiling actually means that his downlight and the whole ceiling will be on the floor within about 15 minutes in a fire test. The test has no requirement to prove the downlight contributes to a fire or whether it has the potential to start one. The sample ceiling is set on top of a furnace which is controlled to a time/temperature curve as stated in the test standard and will reach 500C in the first couple of minutes, 850C by 30 minutes and nearer 1000 by 90 minutes. The failure criteria is from above, either by exceeding temperature measurements on the upper surface, by the passage of fire leading to sustained flaming at the upper surface or by gaps opening beyond a certain size in the section of ceiling. This means the downlight itself may have disintegrated, fallen out, segments of plasterboard detached and the joists ablaze before the end of a test and it will still pass as the ceiling section, as a whole, has still maintained its original integrity duration. The design of downlights has changed hugely in recent years, from the steel back can type with intumescent in the vented cap and intumescent linings and a ring under the bezel they are now much simpler, smaller, lighter and cheaper to produce. Many now have little to no intumescent, tilting ones being the general exception as they obviously have a gap around the lamp housing albeit exceedingly small in some cases. The trend for removing intumescent seals other than cost is twofold, one, keep the downlight in place and stop the fire getting through the downlight in the first place and it's not needed, and, two, when fitted between the bezel and the underside of the ceiling it fights against the action of the retaining springs as it expands, which it can do with considerable force, and so acts to fill the gap it is creating. Better springs will clamp the bezel rather than fight it as intumescent can. Not all intumescents are equal of course so some expand less strongly and therefore fight less hard than others but the principal remains depending on the bezel material. I've seen the bezel give up early and the whole downlight fire up into the void as if on a bungee rope! Even then, and i can't remember now, it does not necessarily follow that that light failed a fire test, if the ceiling section overall did not allow flame to pass through the floor above for the duration and the other criteria were also met. In summary, the downlight shown could well have passed all fire tests and legitimately call itself fire rated even though it might not look like what might be termed a traditional fire rated downlight design. They don't have to have seals, except maybe for IP rating, fire seals, intumescents, hoods, lids etc although they do have to be tested as designed and used in practice so the evidence for a halogen style and an led with heatsink style for example, would be considered different enough to have to be individually tested, the resulting test evidence would not generally be interchangeable. As i said, contributing to the cause of a fire, electrical compliance to that end, different matter. Hope someone has learned something from this especially if you fit these things. Into the right ceiling of course, from a decent manufacturer who can, and will, quote or provide their evidence."

[@jimbailey350]

Tim Smith - Totally agree on the EICR point, the biggest issue is that generally the customer doesn’t understand them and what they mean and what he is looking for. As soon as he has a cert he thinks he’s good. I’ve had it for my last employer who thought that the EICR they paid the contractor to do was good, did not understand it and when they went to connect up the equipment (A ISO Shelter unit) the onsite leccy looked at the cert and saw that it only had a couple of dry checks... so wouldn’t connect. I was onsite to help site the system and said I can do an new EICR, had all my test equipment and Certs to prove and when my boss turned said how long expecting an hour I turned round, bearing in mind the leccy is stood in the group with us I said it’s gonna take 6+ hours per unit (2x), leccy was happy with response and in the mean time I found a serious flaw on the unit during testing.... unlike gas where they can condemn I feel electrical wise doesn’t have the clout....

[@Dj.slothy]

i think adding the smoke detector circuit to the lighting circuit is a better way to ensure added safety because many times i have known the occupier had switched the smoke detector circuit off and removed the batteries because they kept bleeping !!!!!!

[@apcyberax]

Plus if it trips and is on its own circuits people might not know but you will notice if you have no lights pretty fast. The only better way is put the router on the same. People notice when they can't get on youtube :)

[@dcsoxford]

F/A should be dedicated circuit = IEE regs.

[@danielbrydon3869]

@@dcsoxford a full fire alarm? Sure. Smoke detectors to ld2 in a house? Absolutely no need and recommended by the manufacturers (aico definitely) to install on the local lighting circuit

[@bencrew4376]

The only regs relevant to smoke alarms in a house are BS5839 part 6, and they say grade D alarms (Aico mains type with integral batt) should be on a local lighting cct for the reasons given. That’s where aico got it from.

[@keithjohnstone9889]

Tom, another interesting video. I always put my smoke detectors on a local lighting circuit, those downlights look dodgy. I certainly wouldn't class those as a good fire rated down light. Those are something I would have installed 10years ago when GU 10 down lights started to be popular.

[@nrg-5003]

Proof that not all diyers are clueless, just because someone is not technically "Qualified" does not mean they don't know what they are doing and in my opinion experience beats qualifications everytime, and yes I have seen piss poor jobs from so called qualified electricians so get off your high horses! Great vid tom keeping it real as always.

[@albertsteptoe3710]

NRG-900 seen the guys who were the best at college could do the maths etc great , on site different story dreadful with manual labour . This is my point exactly on organisations etc . Some of the members they have are terrible . Yet the better ones opt out due to the demands on high membership fees etc . Shame really .

[@garethmurgatroyd5447]

Hi Tom. Love the channel. Keep seeing new videos popping up. With the coffee cup, yes annoying that they wouldn't do that as your trying to do your bit but at least you would have claimed your coffee stamp right 👍😃

[@ThePhilandPam]

Really entertaining and great watching the way you approach the job, many thanks for sharing your days 👍

[@TeamSimpsonRacing]

Hi Tom. Agree with you that cheap condition reports are not worth the paper they're written on and trying to explain that to a customer is a nightmare. I tend to price condition reports as a full day's labour. May I ask if you are quoting £300 to £400 for a condition report, how much do you charge for a consumer unit change as obviously you have to carry out the same inspections pre change?

[@zedman442]

Nice work from the client. Turn that foam gun the right way up though 😉

[@saabuldin]

Hi Tom, I've seen these types of fire rated lights before. I think they are fire rated as they have a glass cover and the rubber ring around the light expands and blocks the hole if there is a fire. The standard can lights normally have an open hole where the bulb goes through.

[@SCOTTYD2031]

Tom, you surpassed the quota for use of the words "a really neat job", but a great vid.

[@godwears7]

I had that issue with fire rated downlights too. I done an EICR and flagged it up as not fire rated then was shown the box etc... Turns out that fire rated is the fact that there is no way through for air if the lamp is missing, so glass or a can blocks that. The can is required for insulation.

[@SH-zr3vp]

Yeah you’re right Tom, health and safety has become ridiculous. I’ve just finished sixth form and heading into apprenticeship but the health and safety woman in charge stopped the school from parking it’s minivans within the school site because she thought that someone could get run over. Insane

[@michaeljohnson1006]

I had a friend a few years ago did a diy job fitted some halogen spot lights in his kitchen! He came back home to find a flood in the kitchen the plastic central heating pipe had melted onto the spot light with no fire hood lol

[@davidprivate5786]

Lol will remember that one.

[@williamkerr8395]

I agree with your practice of doubling up with lighting/Smokies. Far too easy for the breaker to be switched off to the detectors otherwise. Have you ever fitted SOLO led downlights? They are absolutely superb. Hagar boards are the business. Agree with you totally regarding EICRs. Total joke what goes on, I had a landlord tell me he could get them down for £50 each including any remedial work.... I literally laughed in his face and said good luck mate!

[@jondack61]

Loves a Sunday morning visit to Toolstation

[@supersparks9466]

I always wire smokes in with the lighting, I’m with you tommo

[@WatchingTheo]

Fire rated downlights, only mean it will prevent the spread of fire through the light from the room below going up. The ‘can’ over the top can generally make the downlight insulation coverable. Two separate things.

[@timsmith6029]

Fire rating is dependant on the ceiling construction not the type of lamp fitted but in essence you are correct.

[@dancrawford2690]

Theo is right,the glass and the gasket on that fitting is what makes it fire rated ,having said that i only use fittings with a full can like the jcc v50 range

[@ciaranmartin3052]

How long dose it take to put a fusebord in

[@luxnova2546]

The fire rating is to do with the ceiling and fire passing though the ceiling. If you then cut a hole in it you have broken the fire rating. If the light fitting can seal against the ceiling and retain the fire barrier it is “fire rated”. (This obviously requires them to test this).

[@Roverturbo]

Rob turnbull 👍 this is what I believed too..

[@muzikman2008]

Correct..

[@HandyKindaGuyUK]

That would make sense

[@timsmith6029]

The "them" that test this would say you are indeed correct.

[@hairfritz2667]

In summary, Rob turnbull is correct. Whether or not a downlighter is likely to cause a fire is a separate issue. I tend to think this is something you ought to have known, Thomas. To be fair, we all have gaps in our knowledge and you’re brave enough to demonstrate yours on your channel, though I’ve largely stopped watching since all the sponsorship, giveaways etc came along.

[@LucasBorntreger]

I'm amazed by the places you're allowed to squeeze fuse boards in to. In the US we are required to have a 3ft X 3ft square that's at least 7ft high. I have never installed a panel that required I find a bucket to sit on. As for the recessed light, was the ring steel or aluminium? I would think aluminium or pot metal would melt quite quickly. If it was steel then I wonder if that's the difference.

[@completepancakeacfifacodga1507]

My brother Thomas how fit do you have to be to become a sparky. Could I be a big bloke and still become a sparky. Thankyou Thomas x

[@Dj.slothy]

my sparky apprentice was a bodybuilder and 6foot 4 and he got on ok

[@Micsmit_45]

dont really need to be in shape to become a spark. although if you can you should try to get fitter.

[@oOoR1CH1EoOo]

Completepancake Ac FIFA Cod gameplay you can be mate yes, as long as you’re willing to put in some hard graft nothing can stop you. You’ll also find yourself losing weight being a Sparky, you wouldn’t think it but you are expelling a lot of energy each day climbing ladders and steps and walking to a fro testing circuits

[@eddiespencer1]

I know a lot of chubby chaps that are electricians. Your knowledge, work-aptitude/ethic, attention to detail, reliability and accountability are paramount over your chubby physique. Customers don't care much about your physique if you do a good and proper job the first time, on-time, every time.

[@MegaMetinMetin]

Completepancake Ac FIFA Cod gameplay lol hi love xxx

[@dixon9]

Fire rating issue with downlights... I used to assume that it had to do with the downlight being "sealed" with no exposed wiring or connections (internally)....but later found out it refers to the seal it makes with ceiling i.e. the gasket.

[@jonhigginson4096]

Is the seal on the rim of the downlight an intumescent seal? Maybe that’s what gives it its rating along with the glass screen. As for the lamp arrangement, I’d be quite happy with it if there is a label stating that it is led only, bearing in mind also that it can only be a matter of time before dichroic lamps cease to be available. Plus, after labelling and informing the client there is only so much you can legislate for. How many times have you seen scorched lampshades where a 100w lamp has been fitted but the label states 60w max? Ours is to do what we do properly but we can’t babysit folk thereafter.

[@Camberwell86]

I refreshed the page because the video jammed up and got a 2 minute Milwaukee power tools advert! :o

[@anax3988]

I’m a student at college and I’m on inspection and testing could you do a video on testing and fault finding?

[@notbadforasparky4791]

Seal glass front and intumescent seal, seem to be enough these days. The fire rating is to stop the passage of fire from one compartment to another, not to stop the fitting causing fire. Another good video, cheers ;)

[@timsmith6029]

Many no longer have intumescent seals.

[@duckman5642]

I charge 400 per day,mostly Kensington and knightsbridge , all test work. Impossible to test 5 a day, 2 or 3 at a push.Great vid cheers.

[@popotoproductions3015]

the point of "if the smoke alarms ever go wrong it forces the client to get them fixed" alone is good enough for me. The amount of smoke alarms I have come across in the last 6 months that are faulty or just not working is horrendous!!

[@muckychimney]

Was that fire rated expanding foam ?

[@pawelpodpora1416]

I used these downlights last time, there is also another type witch fireguard. I had same You show on video, to provide fire protection had to use firehoods, there is information inside box in manual

[@Uncandan]

Not to sure if they are fire rated? I’ve got a few my self Purchased from screw fix that are fire rated and they’re fully enclosed.

[@timsmith6029]

Not all fire rated downlights are enclosed these days.

[@dykey1234567]

The down lights seem odd without fire rated cowling over the top, in the floor joist i doubt it would make much difference but if there also upstairs and there going to be putting lagging on top of the lights i cant see how it would be fire rated, maybe part to do with maximum of a 10W led bulb as they dont produce much heat like the halogens, but hey you've checked the lights and the manual so you can tick the box on the NIC cert

[@johndufton9686]

Those lights can be bought with an insulation cap on them for directly covering with rockwool and the like.

[@GeorgeJKingham]

Really not convinced on them being fire rated without a firebreak or a can behind the lamp?....

[@danupton3132]

Hi Thomas, another great video. I just have a question about your fire rated foam. I have tried that before but with cans that come with their own applicator. I find that the foam just hardens in the nozzle and after the first use you may as well throw away....do you have any tips? Dan

[@huwcochlin1856]

Fire rated, it's the physical barrier between occupiable floors, guessing the glass is enough to comply! Probably (if toughened) better than plasterboard, still prefer the enclosed versions for living spaces though.

[@juliustyrrell5117]

ICertifi is the best I carry my iPad around Do Test Sheets on the go. Love the videos

[@BrendanNutley]

With reference to the fire rating, would it be fire rated for the LED light only as the driver would not be able to run a halogen bulb. I'm afraid that's more of a question than the answer your looking for. If you put a halogen bulb into the fitting I would be more worried about the driver causing fire issues. Definitely watching this space for someone who has the answer to this topic. Cheers

[@Riven360]

Hi Tom. Recently picked up some downlights different to what I usually use. Same thing as the ones in your video, fire rated but no top/enclosure. The ones I fitted had a intermecent strip in between the fitting and where it fits on the ceiling. I just think as technology changes, it’s become possible to manufacture downlights which are fire rated cheaper.

[@timsmith6029]

Downlight designs that i test have changed drastically over the last few years, many don't have the intumescent anymore. They are a long way from the solid back can type with the holes in the top as they predominately used to be.

[@P55121]

Hello Greetings from Germany, nice videos as always keep it up

[@trang9405]

For testing the circuits try Wago´s 221 connectors. They are so much faster then screw terminals, you don’t need any tool to fit them and they don’t damage the conductor as much.

[@muzzyhomes]

That fire rated downlight does seem suspect, I assume like you that by stating LED only the fire rating would be null & void if used with a halogen lamp. That then assumes the client or any future owner will only use LED lamps. Out of interest does the fitting itself have anything on it stating LED only?

[@garyp610]

love the videos with all the swearing allowed and not covered up but love the videos dude and keep them up and are you getting just one van or two or three hehe

[@pauloneill5779]

Hi mate love your channel. Whats your thoughts on torque screwdrivers when working in a board? Also i would not use them as fire rated lights.

[@thelifeofripple245]

Paul O'Neill -I use one on every new install as it’s a requirement stated in the manufactures instructions.. so therefore necessary to protect yourself for insurance/claim related issues.. though I never use it on pre existing boards as I’ve not installed it.. and if they’re quite old boards who’s gonna know which torque setting is correct..

[@pauloneill5779]

TheLifeOfRipple same here. I actually quite like them

[@scottmiller1025]

I'm from the middle of the US do hvacr as a trade, been in the trades electrical and HVAC, can you explain your wire gauges and amp draws. For instance we use 18 awg this starts our low voltage thermostat wire. We use 14awg at 15amp, 12awg for 20amp, 10 awg for 30amp. Is an eicr a routine inspection? That green meter you need to replace, is it a megaohmer?

[@deanlittle1693]

The fire rating is the glass and the intusemescent strip round the edge . Only need a fire hood to stop insulation going onto the fitting which if you look into it you should technically still put a for hood over the downlights that are fully covered . Or make sure there is no insulation over them . Or so I believe when I looked into this .

[@johnxby1061]

They don't look like fire rated down lighters to me either. I feel like that seal around the face plate might be pushing them over the edge of compliance, but just falling over that edge doesn't make them very good. Its like the visual only EICR, its a pass of sorts but when push comes to shove its still shite.

[@josephmanalo980]

Did I miss something where your helper dude go he was cool!! Aloha from Hawaii

[@philsbbs]

1:20 I totally agree we throw so much stuff away and so many things are single use items.

[@hamondair]

From my understanding of the regs regarding fire rated down-lights is that they only need to stop the spread of fire from moving upwards. So in this instance the glass and rubber gasket around the bezel are sufficient in doing that. I mean that’s what I’ve been taught

[@timsmith6029]

Fire rating is dependant on the ceiling construction not the type of lamp fitted so you would be correct. When tested the fire is from below and the fitting which now plugs the hole in a known rated ceiling construction has to prove it can maintain the original integrity rating of that ceiling.

[@hamondair]

Tim Smith yes you are right mate but I’m not talking about the material? We are all talking about down-lights, so as an electrician material isn’t our job.

[@dtec30]

is there not a hood on the led down light im presuming that the kit was the led light and holder so if you put a halogen lamp then you have actively changed the fire rating

[@nathanlucas6465]

Is the rubber seal on that downlight the heat expanding stuff likebl you get on fire doors?

[@islaellie]

Firstly love your videos, just wondered when you filled the holes in the back of the board what was it you used? “Fire” rated foam? I am an electrician by trade and used to use this all the time, I have since moved into more facilities management, and any fire survey/risk assessment I have ever had done will not allow fire rated foam as it isn’t normally fire rated still, believe it or not. You might not even be using foam! Just thought I’d mention it but like I say I always used to use it. Anyway keep up with the videos 👍🏻

[@kristo32]

Tom, I may have missed a post but did you get in touch with the van winner??

[@Mattja1]

Doing 5 EICRs a day? Impossible! Let's be realistic he's spending at most 2 hours on each installation, probably less, no chance are they even looking for most of what they should be checking for. In my opinion most houses I come across need at least a day to do a proper check, sometimes more for larger places. Company that's asking that from him sound properly dodgy.

[@michaellack5139]

Matt hi Matt ..I totally agree with you on what you said...a lot of test don’t check sockets and switches for loose connections which in turn can get funny readings ....to be honest I’ve been doing this for 28 years and seen a lot of shi..t. work and have a go at it...how hard can it be....diyers...I shit you not a tyre fitter done a first fix on a house..got paid then ran away...leaving me and my colleague to 2nd fix it...cables missing on lights...... 2 way a night mare ...bla bla ...can’t wait for retirement..sorry to rant on...could write a book on what I’ve seen....

[@tommendoza1812]

Problem is who is their right mind is going to be paying for a test that takes all day? Landlords won’t. A 3 bed house, 5-6 circuits is 2 hours with 2 of you at it.

[@richardjones3112]

@M H agree totally.

[@albertsteptoe3710]

Yes that’s ridiculous that .

[@MartiA1973]

Like you Mr N, I've been to two outlets that refused to put coffee in an travel mug. My old electrical college could not fit a normal 300ml travel mug in their coffee dispenser so sold it in the nasty, plastic coated paper to pour in my cup. Best was Gregs the Bakers who told me they are not trained to wash customers cups AND I'M NOT MAKING THAT UP!

[@AllLyricsYT]

First, keep up the good work! Love the videos 💙

[@C0mmentC0p]

I was first {:

[@donnierobertson3088]

Great Job

[@will.j5151]

Im from germany and we fitted many similar Downlights they were a little more pricier ( brand brumberg) but they were normally fitted in ceilings, that are different fire hazard zones,so they have to be fire rated as well as they were specially picked by the architects/planners

[@Cfcsince1987]

Hello Thomas, love all your videos very informative and lots of coffee ☕️👍

[@TheHeadAngle]

I think the macdonald’s HSE issue is prob a southern thing, up here I’ve asked them to fill a 2l water bottle full of boiling water before to deice a frozen washer bottle in the van before now and they were more than happy to help no charge too

[@GunnyRabbit]

I think you'll find the fire rating is actually only on the box they are supplied in...

[@effervescence5664]

Signing off a customers own wiring is technically a breach of the agreement with the NICEIC so they can reserve the right to revoke your membership. However on a site that you can actually view all the cable runs start to finish most of us won't take issue with signing it off.

[@willford8475]

Electrician and Shadow Puppeteer. What a combination! Do the barking dog - sound effects required. Woof! Lol

[@garyhall4449]

I love customers work..🙄 I'm a plumber.. Lol 👍

[@Marty7787]

Lol me too, they fitted the pipework and we did the boiler, I've never seen so many leaks in my life, we ended up just re-piping the whole system once they realised it was beyond their skill set.

[@hieveryone999]

Speedfit is a dangerous thing

[@matthewpearce9909]

interesting vid as always tom! would love to see a vid talking about how you got into the trade/some tips on how to get work for apprentices or people completing their lvl 2 like me! you mentioned maybe getting tom(dave) involved in a similar video. anyway keep up the good work!

[@argylefan1985]

Not satisfactory fire rating for me on that fitting don’t care what the box says lol. Like you said you could easily fit a halogen to that I’m guessing it’s just gu10 the holder it’s self? Questionable. Also quick question for you does anyone use split concentric up that way or is it just a Devon thing I’ve always been led to believe we’re the only ones who really use it.

[@AllenGoldsmith]

fire rated is the the seal around the bezal is like an intermittent strip like on a fire door which melts around the ceiling in the event of a fire

[@TezzaRES]

Using their cups means you can collect the stickers for a free coffee

[@gibberingidiot]

Having done some research on fire rating for a client who imports downlights, the fire rating of a downlighter just means that it won't reduce the fire/smoke spreading capacity of fire rated plasterboard ceilings in which they are installed at 30min, 60min, etc. So as long as there is a seal (the rubber washer round the lip) and the front is not open or likely to catch fire within the same period (Glass shouldn't), then it will likely be pass the tests to be counted as a fire rated fitting. Whether the companies all do the relevant tests or just wing it is another matter when they claim their rating - They are supposed to test it in a simulated setup that is set on fire and does not allow any ingress of flame in the time specified. A whole other issue is whether it can be covered with insulation or not (that one certainly couldn't be), but Aurora (and others now I imagine_ have one with a little basket on top that in theory does allow insulation directly over. In general LED downlights have significantly reduced the cases of crusty wires and melted junction boxes I've found on old downlights where the lamp produces a lot of heat - in particular the 12V ones.

[@timsmith6029]

As i conduct fire testing on these, you're probably the closest to being correct that i have read so far, unfortunately there are many wildly inaccurate assumptions as to what a fire test requires, and what a fire rated downlight is actually meant to achieve. My pet hate is that anyone can walk into a store and buy 90 minute downlights, take them home, fit them and think that all in the world is now safe. As a side note we, not so much lately, have had many potential clients, probably in a bedroom office, wishing to test imported downlights as they are cheap to import and pricey to buy off the shelf, the difference being potential profit, woohoo. We never hear from them again when they find out what is involved and how much it costs to get a full set of fire tests done. If you are fitting them, buy reputable brands that can prove they have the reports and the test evidence, they are expensive for a good reason. (rant over) There is no requirement for smoke reduction or leakage prevention in a ceiling fire test, only fire. As with other "fire rated" or "fire certificated" products (rather loose terms in my world) smoke can pour and billow to its hearts content, as dense as it likes as far as fire tests are concerned. There are other tests for this for different products but it's smoke that kills first. Chances are, you would not believe how fast smoke can fill a large fire test labaratory so I'm with Thomas on that alarm, might be inconvenient, tough, it;s for your own good. Get alarms, they're cheap enough. The test to BS476 consists of a ceiling section of a known fire resistance, of a design such as those in the gypsum white book, for either 30, 60 or 90 minutes such that it will resist flame spreading through the chipboard floor layer above. This has had a hole put in it which has been plugged with a downlight which has to maintain the integrity of each ceiling duration as it is the ceiling as a whole that is tested. The design of the ceiling specimen is different for each of the 30, 60, 90 minute tests, and are not interchangeable, thus a 90 minute rated downlight might not be rated at 30 minutes and vice versa. It is dependant on the ceiling into which it is fitted, so the scenario above where joe public thinks he's now safe because he has 90 minute lights fitted in his 3/8 wall board ceiling actually means that his downlight and the whole ceiling will be on the floor within about 15 minutes in a fire test. The test has no requirement to prove the downlight contributes to a fire or whether it has the potential to start one. The sample ceiling is set on top of a furnace which is controlled to a time/temperature curve as stated in the test standard and will reach 500C in the first couple of minutes, 850C by 30 minutes and nearer 1000 by 90 minutes. The failure criteria is from above, either by exceeding temperature measurements on the upper surface, by the passage of fire leading to sustained flaming at the upper surface or by gaps opening beyond a certain size in the section of ceiling. This means the downlight itself may have disintegrated, fallen out, segments of plasterboard detached and the joists ablaze before the end of a test and it will still pass as the ceiling section, as a whole, has still maintained its original integrity duration. The design of downlights has changed hugely in recent years, from the steel back can type with intumescent in the vented cap and intumescent linings and a ring under the bezel they are now much simpler, smaller, lighter and cheaper to produce. Many now have little to no intumescent, tilting ones being the general exception as they obviously have a gap around the lamp housing albeit exceedingly small in some cases. The trend for removing intumescent seals other than cost is twofold, one, keep the downlight in place and stop the fire getting through the downlight in the first place and it's not needed, and, two, when fitted between the bezel and the underside of the ceiling it fights against the action of the retaining springs as it expands, which it can do with considerable force, and so acts to fill the gap it is creating. Better springs will clamp the bezel rather than fight it as intumescent can. Not all intumescents are equal of course so some expand less strongly and therefore fight less hard than others but the principal remains depending on the bezel material. I've seen the bezel give up early and the whole downlight fire up into the void as if on a bungee rope! Even then, and i can't remember now, it does not necessarily follow that that light failed a fire test, if the ceiling section overall did not allow flame to pass through the floor above for the duration and the other criteria were also met. In summary, the downlight shown could well have passed all fire tests and legitimately call itself fire rated even though it might not look like what might be termed a traditional fire rated downlight design. They don't have to have seals, except maybe for IP rating, fire seals, intumescents, hoods, lids etc although they do have to be tested as designed and used in practice so the evidence for a halogen style and an led with heatsink style for example, would be considered different enough to have to be individually tested, the resulting test evidence would not generally be interchangeable. As i said, contributing to the cause of a fire, electrical compliance to that end, different matter. Hope someone has learned something from this especially if you fit these things. Into the right ceiling of course, from a decent manufacturer who can, and will, quote or provide their evidence.

[@johnxby1061]

As a side note, that A4 lined note pad method of recording results looks interesting. Surely it must be easier to fill a box sheet out than faff about with that. I'd soon lose my train of thought without columns and headings to detail results under. Mebbe that's just me though..:)

[@doncodman913]

hi Thomas . Wondered what your thoughts are about the small consumer box in loft being run using 2 lengths of 6mm sq T&E ... in case the shower was upgraded to an electric 8 or 10kw unit. currently its just a power shower 3amp transformer for the pump. Hope to hear from you . Good vids btw . Regards Don

[@asef698]

Turned out a good night with this Fitted a proteus board last week, nice board.

[@muckychimney]

Proteus ? ... yuk !

[@asef698]

@@muckychimney i must admit, it beats bg, mk and wylex nmx boards for me.

[@HandyKindaGuyUK]

Ewwww

[@waynecartwright7276]

replaced more proteus rcds that had failed than all other makes put together

[@asef698]

@@waynecartwright7276 future proofing for work, even more reasons to fit.

[@supersparks9466]

I’m also with you on ecir,s. Hate them with a passion and need to be paid accordingly

[@mikep-j894]

presumably the glass is silica, or effectively pyrex, with a high melting point, and a low thermal expansion rate, so cracking is unlikely. Either that or the hole it leaves when it falls out is small enough that on fire test, it does not actually allow fire spread. After all you can get fire rated windows in a fire door, and they don't have to be wired glass, if the glass chemistry is correct. Nice to see a measured approach to the adoption of someone else's work that is neither hysterical condemnation or careless to the point of danger. Keep it up.

[@gsdno1gsd369]

I always thought that the fire rating was to do with the break in the plasterboard, ie 30 mins. So they will do, but like you say I would prefer something covering the lamp also, especially as any guy 10 lamp could end up in there.

[@Aeontheosophical]

Fair play Tom enjoying the videos what drone do you use for shots thanks

[@OA1998.]

Its been 6 months still wondering where you got the mk cup from

[@jaye8578]

When you do a ring test do you go to every socket on the circuit L-N L-E. to get resistances to Is fire rated foam pink to🤔🤔 Have you tried fire putty👍🏻👍🏻

[@MikeSmith-mj8tp]

In the US we have two different can light fixtures. One rated for installation in insulation and one that is not. But, with LED light being introduced to the market so heavily. There are no low profile fixtures that don't require a can. They look very much like the setup you have there.

[@Magic-Tree]

I just rented a new a house with those fire rated down lights, and they have halogens in them. Haven't got round to changing them yet.