Why your first 10 000 photos are your worst?

[@65WZ]

I remember my first rolls of film were all burnt, the negative was completely blank. I was 12, the camera was 100% manual, and my allowance was enough for 1 roll per month 😊 That was 45 years ago, and I’m still in my baby steps 👴🏽

[@JohnDrummondPhoto]

"Practice makes perfect"? Not necessarily. I've learned from golf that practice makes permanent; so your practice has to have purpose, and you should constantly review if you're practicing the right thing. I also believe that "gear doesn't matter, until it does". As you said, if your kit gets in your way creatively, or takes away from the joy of shooting, that's when to look for something different. Not necessarily pricier or "better" in terms of specs, but gear that allows you to do what you want to do.

[@theundefinedphotographer]

Agreed. As Einstein said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." I think it really depends what kind of practice you do. If you do mindless practice without being critical or reflective, then you won't improve. If you think of practice as developing a routine or habit, then it would seem repetitive and constraining, but if you reframe it and think of practice as the act of doing, the act of getting out there and pushing yourself to take pictures, then it's a lot more open ended and conducive to progress. Also, it's important to get feedback from others as well so that you're not stuck in a rut.

[@washingtonradio]

There is another aspect of the quote is as one matures as a person one hopefully begins to have a more nuanced understanding of the world and better understanding of one's self. Also, implied is one never arrives as the perfect photographer, one is always a work in progress.

[@TatianaHopper]

Absolutely that’s why I said don’t expect to be great or very good, take it all at your own pace because yes jay we are all a work in progress! Cheers for sharing those wise thoughts!

[@Juliane2412]

Please more of such rather philosophical videos!

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you Juliane!

[@shiveshranjan7]

I like when you snap, Ms. Hopper! But your concise and precise analysis is why I always come back to watch your video. 😊 Never take an off from Internet, okay?

[@richardrizzo_photography]

Great video Tatiana. After 45 years of photography I'm still learning new things, it helps me to keep going and growing creatively.

[@johngskewes]

An interesting video, thank you. I believe photography is a craft, the way tailoring, or writing, or cabinetmaking is a craft. The 10,000 number is arbitrary, but what it says is you need to learn your craft so that you can shoot with intention, learn express yourself and to be understood. 10,000, allows us to learn the medium and our tools, and develop the ability to act intuitively to changing situations. There is another companion aphorism that says, "even a blind squirrel will find a nut now and then," which would describe our early successes that lead us to believe we might have some talent. Thank you Tatiana

[@L.Spencer]

I like how you discuss things, interesting, relaxing, positive.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you Spencer, appreciate the kind words 🤍

[@louie000]

thanks for another great video. im not sure who said this but " the camera you have today is better than the ones photographers of the past had " so yes gear helps but is not everything.

[@ehouli77]

Pretty interesting thoughts on Cartier-Bresson, when I was studying photography I was presented with his "Decisive instant" philosophy of work and felt a bit uneasy about it. Till today I thought I was a bit lonely about this uneasiness till I found the thoughts of Alex Webb in a José Antunes article, where he brings the original french title of the book and a better translation "Images à la Sauvette- ’Images on the Sly’". Then other details surfaced in this José Antunes article: "Along with the term “decisive moment”, a series of other myths grew around the figure of Henri Cartier-Bresson: he never used flash, he never cropped a frame, he never retouched and he used a 50mm lens. Well, for the HCB retrospective held in Paris in 2014, the curator of photography at the Centre Pompidou, Clément Chéroux, found evidence that Cartier-Bresson did own a flash, that he did carry a number of lenses, and so on. The simplified outline that Cartier-Bresson presented to the world was not false but nor did it tell the whole truth." So, as I respect everyone's philosophy of work, and I respect Cartier-Bresson works, then there are myths around people and questions, it's healthy to have questions and think if everything is what it seems or we've been presented with.

[@melvinshuster]

Great video. Thanks. Also, love the music.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you Melvin! Music is by Faux Sala (links and title in description :))

[@WesleyVerhoevePhotography]

This is my favorite thing about photography, its a never ending education

[@cristianguglielmi3056]

I really love this channel! Your thoughts on photography are focused, correct and delivered in a pleasant and relaxed way. It really resonates!! Keep up the good work!

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you so much for your kind words Cristian and for supporting the channel, much appreciated and much love back 🙌

[@PaulOttavio]

Thanks Tatiana! Quite important not to regret the first 10000 photos, they contain precious moments and I vital part of your development as a photographer and what your mind's eye has learnt to see. I am going to spend the day counting the photos I have taken to date, if I have gone over then the worst is over :-). Blessings and peace!

[@PaulOttavio]

I have 99999!

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you for sharing that Paul, completely agree with you be grateful for your greatest achievements but also for your biggest mistakes, it’s all part of growing and wow 99999! Peace ✌🏻

[@carloscosta7618]

Your videos are always a source of inspiration. Great work and I am looking forward to everything you do.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you so much Carlos! Appreciate it and I’ll be sure to keep posting :)

[@Chris-qg9rz]

Wow really love your street style. Great stuff.

[@paulbjorngaard6958]

The 10,000 concept is explained really well in Malcolm Gladwell's book, Outliers. Essentially the same idea that practice distinguishes good from great, not innate talent.

[@Bunnyisms]

Sometimes I think the best camera is the one you don't notice. Maybe it's the one you know so well that it doesn't get in your way of making the pictures in your creative imagination. I feel this way with my cameras I started making photographs with film, but I remember the time when I got my first digital camera body as a huge milestone. With film I was afraid to make mistakes and afraid to experiment. I did not want to waste the materials I was using. I started making far more photos, taking classes, and testing the limits of what I could do with my photos. This is one of the things that made the biggest difference in my photography. I had to develop my film to get feedback, but now I could see the effects of the things I was experimenting with directly after shooting. I could also be more daring and try things without worrying about the cost of the media I was using. I don't think I would be where I am today without having that opportunity I had with a digital camera body. I learned how to use light and work with my exposure, try several different ways of composing things then look to see which ones I liked best, work with my depth of field, and try taking photos of things that are low yield and risky. Now I have some collections of pictures I can look at and get some inspiration for what I want to try next. I still use film, but I take what I learned from digital and apply it to my film. The rules that make a good picture do not change

[@Klaus-macht-Bilder_de]

A friend of mine answered: My DSLR can do 3 pictures/second - I'll spend that hour!

[@Diego-sz1sx]

XDDDDD I was thinking more or less the same: considering I started with a digital camera, how many pictures could I deduct from the 10000?

[@rayprice9819]

Your confusing pictures with photographs. It’s a habit of digital photographers.

[@ChristianPerello]

I look back to when I first started photography. I can't agree more with that saying. Back then, I thought my photos were great! After looking at the first few years of my work, I realized that everything was wrong with them. I don't think good work came out of me for about the first 5 years. That can seem like a very long time, but it shows that the only way you get good at something it repetition. And of course the love for the medium.

[@hanumanguy]

Great video Tatiana. Like all teachings in life, they are not to be taken literally. Taken teachings literally is why we don't have world peace 🙂. I just put together a collection for an exhibition that covers 15 years of work. I believe I am a better photographer today than 15 years ago. I can produce more consistent quality work now however I like some of my images from back then and others like them also. So yes it takes a lot of practice to achieve mastery in anything but it doesn't mean you don't create meaningful work a long the way.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you for your comment Guy, appreciate the insight and I’m glad you have all that self awareness as a photographer it’s super important I would say.

[@qbnscholar]

Great insights. Yes, more like this, please.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you so much!

[@narelle4868]

Philosophical is good. Thankyou Tatiana.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you!

[@paulroyle-grimes8279]

My first ten thousand photos were film. Feedback was separated from the shutter by weeks. I believe that a photographer starting digitally today has a huge advantage if they set the camera on manual and give relentless effort to their first 10,000 photos.

[@carolinezaramati9193]

Thanks Tatiana for another inspirational video. As a beginner enthusiastic photographer I snapped a lot, and I’ve noticed that as I learn more I snap less. I put much more thought to the subject, and composition etc . Keep on doing such meaningful and enjoyable video.

[@TatianaHopper]

Hey Caroline! Thank you so much for watching I appreciate it and glad you identified with ideas I talked about in this video it’s all about learning and taking your take and doing all at your pace!

[@kevinlack5634]

Excellent video :) I like how you concentrated on one of his quotes (his life and work have been talked about many times by other YT channels) and discussed some of the various questions this quote can still pose to this day.

[@emeryjohnson6193]

Great video! I got my first SLR in 1973 & shot a lot of bad photos. I do favor digital cameras now, because I don't have to develop my mistakes. To each their own. And yes, always keep practicing!

[@charlessummers7381]

Thanks, T! Ironically, I had watched a video talking about being consistent in your photography. Also, that it was okay to make mistakes; failures are the foundation of success. I have 13072 photographs. 😁🤣🤣 📸

[@ltlbuddha]

When I first hear that quote, I thought it as rubbish as Malcolm Gladwell's "10,000 hour to master a skill", but your explanation makes more sense. Although, I would add to it by saying it isn't only how long one shoots, but also how focused one is on learning. It still takes time, but we can push that a bit.

[@makingartsozmum]

love your work and videos!

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you so much Richard!

[@googlymannz]

Great video, really enjoyed your thoughts!

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you! Appreciate it!

[@leonardopereira6865]

Hi, i'm from Brasil, i realy love your photography and you vision about it, Bresson is a perfection when we talk about photos, here we have Sebastião Salgado and he is the expressive than Cartier, but, the master allways been master, thank you, are you allsome

[@chepo1956]

Hello Tatiana, Jose from Puerto Rico. Wow! What a topic. You can write a book on this subject and there will always be "Ifs" and "Buts", because it's all subjective. John Drummond makes a very compelling point in his comments here. But then, you always have to add to the equation that some folks are just plain gifted and a lot has to do with the choices you make. There are tried and true techniques that everyone has to understand in Photography. From there, you put to the test those tried and true techniques. Mistakes in my view is what makes Photography fun if you're willing to accept the limitations of your choices. I asked in a forum a while back if Ansel Adams had Photoshop in his day, would he adopt it? The forum lit up in seconds. I think he would've. Why? He was creative and pushed his technique to the limits with chemicals, and loved it. Creative minds are always willing to push the limits. If you embrace change and are willing to accept it, your hard work will eventually pay off. Thomas Edison was without a doubt a hard worker, but Tesla worked smarter and thanks to his genius we enjoy what we call "modern conveniences". Gear will only get better as technology continues to improve. It all boils down to what works for you and what makes you happy. The best analogy I can think of is in the movie Good Will Hunting, where Robin is speaking to the young genius Will that the girl he's dating is not perfect. The secret sauce is if both are perfect for each other. If you're passionate about Photography and love every aspect of it, including its limitations, eventually you'll improve. But like Drummond said here in his comments, if golf is not your game; you're gonna have to find a different game, because you will always suck at it no matter what gear you get.

[@Fuksiia]

I'm halfway through the video and I need to say I love everything you're saying, I needed to hear it, it's so inspiring :)

[@SteveStanger]

I enjoyed your examination of this HCB quote I’m this video. Keep up the great work!

[@AeromaticXD]

It’s a fascinating quote!

[@TatianaHopper]

It really is!

[@EdwardIglesias]

I think there is a lot of truth in this. Certainly 10K shots is cheaper with digital, but I think it still takes time. I have been casually shooting for many years and that does not convey the same growth as a dedicated practice of two rolls a week. Love this type of video.

[@theren8311]

This. I like that you included this last bit, because we tend to ignore the fact of learning. You can take 10000 shots and still be where you started, all because you didn't make your shots intentional to learn from. I'd say it takes 10000 to get out of the honeymoon phase, where you want to just shoot every darn thing that breathes or not. After that, your shots become intentional. They start to lean on what interests you, and from there you start to seek ways to make them better.

[@CraigBergonzoni]

Great video. I’d definitely love to see more videos like this. Great work

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you Craig! I’ll be sure to bring them :)

[@spyratekodaks7494]

Gear matters only if you make it matter!! What I mean is that if you have a pro camera and you know how to shoot great photos, then you will make masterpieces!!

[@myblueandme]

That was true for film photography. For digital photography, the first 50000 photos are the worst.

[@marshallrimann6747]

Thank you!

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you for watching Marshall!

[@ThanasisVydouras]

Great video. Thank you

[@TatianaHopper]

You are welcome!

[@robvisualstreetphotography]

It is so true...patience is the lesson.

[@TatianaHopper]

Yes!! 🙌

[@robvisualstreetphotography]

@@TatianaHopper and it’s also what Bruce Lee said. „I learn it and then I forget.“

[@mehransafaei1637]

Nicely said.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you!

[@GrenvilleMelonseedSkiff496]

Keep your fun, informative, inspirational and snappy videos coming ... I'm really enjoying them. I'm awaiting the delivery of my back-ordered Fujifilm X100V that I hope will help to up my iPhone photography experience. I suppose I've been taking snaps for 50 years starting with B&W film (some of which I developed and printed) and more recently digital. Your series of famous folks (musicians and actors) that also happened to be photographers is excellent! Keep on snapping! 🙂

[@TatianaHopper]

Hey! Thank you so much for your input, really appreciate reading your comment and I’ll be sure to keep snapping 😊

[@cinesthesia7]

Outstanding!

[@REMY.C.]

10k photos is easy, jpegs low def, burst 5min and after that I'm an artist.

[@TatianaHopper]

Ahaha yes 👍🏻

[@rayprice9819]

There’s a couple of myths here that need to be dealt with. First, as you say, 10,000 pictures represents over 270 rolls of film at 36 shots/roll and what would have been available to HCB at his peak. For many photographers getting through that amount of film at the time and the expense associated with developing etc. would have been prohibitive and many of HCB’s fellow photographers were not even using 35mm roll film then. Financially HCB was much better off than many and I suggest his remark reflects this. It unfortunately sounds like the remark you can expect from some rich kid. People would have to have practice to get perfect on a lot less film. The second myth is that of the ‘decisive moment’. HCB’s opinion is that there is that moment when everything comes together in a viewfinder and this represents the decisive moment when the picture is there for the taking. He gives the impression and, to my knowledge has never tried to dispel this, that he takes his one picture at the precise decisive moment leading photographers to think forever after that they should be producing excellent photographs with every single shot. But in truth, as demonstrated in HCB’s own contact sheets, he worked by taking many shots of the same scene to choose from and arrive at his ‘decisive moment’. Watching him work in the few archive movies available shows this style in action and his dancing around a subject taking many shots, none of which can be considered seeking out a decisive moment: he picked that from his own contact sheet which, in truth translates to HCB calling his decisive moment the best picture from a bunch of others. It is this ‘decisive moment’ myth that should be ignored and forgotten by anyone wishing to be a photographer. The secret to a great picture is not to restrict your options to just one shot simply because the world has been misled by HCB. If there is such a thing as a decisive moment it is simply what the photographer thinks is their best shot. The decision is unlikely to be arrived at by considering the academic/theoretical application of principle carried over from the art world that HCB would like us to believe. All that said, there is much still to be learned from HCB’s pictures rather than his words: it is highly unlikely that your first ever decent picture is going to be your 10,001 one and, if it is, you should have given up years ago.

[@JA-M-E]

Great video! Just wondering where you got your jumper/sweatshirt from 😅

[@rogerhyland8283]

Never feel like you have arrived, the secret to progressing.

[@TatianaHopper]

Amen to that Roger!

[@duringthemeanwhilst]

this is why I avoid any of the "5/7/10 Mistakes to Avoid..." type videos. you learn from your experiences - good and bad. Still, 10,000 is a bit much though :-)

[@zakariyeawnur2558]

I don’t know about this - my photos have been fire from day one lol

[@larson0014]

Take the first 10, 000 pictures with a digital camera, cheaper that way. Took me 2 years to take 10,000 so really I'd agree with the statement

[@TatianaHopper]

Cheers for watching Joel and thank you for sharing your thoughts 💭

[@nolansnook1268]

T, do you shoot something everyday? I am going to try to do it and write a note (or more) to myself about the image. I believe this will be useful on many levels. PEACE.

[@stuartbaines2843]

Perhaps CB was making a generalisation rather than a literal statement?. I certainly see the point, but define ‘worst’ ? I see some of my very Early photos as my Very Best 👌

[@Sreybk]

My first SLR photos were mostly burned-up badly underexposed rolls of me and my friends skateboarding. Since I have gotten back into mostly film SLR shooting, my digital experience of properly learning the exposure triangle has left me with a lot more keepers now. I still suck. But suck a bit less.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you for your input Keith! Appreciate your thoughts and I’m sure you don’t suck that much I’m sure you’re really good at what you do, keep at it 🙌

[@Sreybk]

@@TatianaHopper A little self-deprecation keeps you motivated.

[@Diego-sz1sx]

Considering the price of the film, I hope not to be broke when I reach the 10000th. Jokes aside, inspiring video!

[@TatianaHopper]

Ahahah thank you Diego! ✌🏻

[@carltanner9065]

10000 pics +1 digital camera= a few days worth of shooting :P Now, I know why I like film :) 3 years worth of B&W film might cost me close to $4600, but that's not too expensive on a per year basis. Plus, it's more enjoyable than running off thousands of pics on a digital camera and have 99% of them being a waste of effort.

[@TatianaHopper]

100% agree with everything you said there Carl, personally I also prefer the film way!

[@maxharper1752]

I would encourage more philosophical commentary. I respect your perspective and always look forward to your videos.

[@TatianaHopper]

Thank you so much Max! Appreciate it and thank you for leaving your thoughts!

[@ivanarnaldomendez]

tatiana lovely video as usual i have a question is posible to have a spanish subtitles ???? for my students hugs from Santo Domingo

[@TatianaHopper]

Hey Ivan! Thank you so much for watching really appreciate it, I thought KZbin would create automatic subtitles for videos when you press that option (it’s not always accurate but works well in most cases). Much love back to Santo Domingo!

[@markdodsworth5439]

The picture of the boat , is it printed backwards accidentally or is it a delibrate descision ?

[@TatianaHopper]

Hmm I don’t think so, which one are you talking about could you write down the time stamp :)

[@pagethreemodel]

I always thought HCB used 35mm. Is 50mm better for street photog. then?

[@user-cj2qv3jt4g]

Watching this because I’ve tried choosing photos to make a zine and realized I took shit photos 😅😂

[@renemies78]

I don't think I'll ever reach that amount of photographs in my lifetime. 😢

[@AndersBjornTH]

Less discouraging than had he said, “Your first 10,000 photos [3 years] will be your best.” :-)

[@TatianaHopper]

Ahaha that’s right! 📷

[@DixonLu]

If a camera can do 120fps (e.g. Z9), do we need to wait for/anticipate the decisive moment? At that frame rate, 10k shots would be over in

[@TatianaHopper]

I’m not too sure I understood David, are you talking about filming at 120fps or shooting multiple exposure? I think the concept of decisive moment is based on taking one exposure at a time (bresson shot with film and still in digital the concept can be read the same way as long as your shoot one frame at the time). I think shooting multiple defeats the purpose and importance of finding that decisive moment in a way, however, if you still find say moment in time where something catches your eye and you snap a few quick shots (multiple exposure) it’s still considered a decisive moment because you saw something waited for it to align or saw it aligning in front of you and took a snap of it. Does that make sense ? Still I think you’re being a bit too literal the question here is not about the number but about reading into this quote which is about being patience, practising and take it all as a learning curb!

[@sommelierofstench]

i think you’re missing the point david

[@refard5]

*burst mode intensifies*

[@TatianaHopper]

💣

[@bfs5113]

I suspect he meant don't expect miracles, but instead, we had to pay our dues. Also, part of the shots could be for improvement and the rest is to refresh the perishable skill. Also remember that he was a one-percenter, liked Fan Ho, who began his journey at the age of 15 and retired when he reached 30. Maybe better for us to discover our own strength and weakness early and exploit them to the fullest when opportunities arrived. Otherwise, we would only have many Chinese fire drill stories to tell our grandchildren. 🙂

[@anthonypearson4206]

Great video! But... is it not slightly hypocritical to say quality of gear isn't important when one is shooting with Mamiyas and Leicas, cameras known for their quality and price. Can you honestly say that you can produce the same quality on something such as a Canon Sure Shot or using cheaper 3rd party lenses from the likes of Vivitar/ProSpec/Sears or even the budget FD lenses from canon, even for digital can one make comparable images with a Canon Rebel with a kit lens vs. a Fuji X-T4(both crop sensors) with XF glass. I apologize if I'm being too critical or rude, it's just that we hear this a lot here on youtube with not many photographers backing it up. I guess in short its easy to say gear doesn't matter when you're using the highest quality gear.

[@TatianaHopper]

Hello Anthony, first of all thank you so much for watching and I appreciate the feedback and the question. I think if you have a look on the channel and on my personal Instagram where I post a lot of my work you can see that yes I do shoot NOW majority of the time with my Mamiya or Leica but I also have made videos or posted work made with a Canon A1, a £5 panoramic camera (that video is up in here on the channel), I have done a lot of work with my yashica T4 and even with my Pentax K1000 (which I don’t have anymore). All cameras that are more affordable and yes I do believe that I can produce images of similar quality with cheaper instruments in fact I have. I had to work extremely hard to be able to afford these cameras I own today, however, I have done most of my learning and made a lot of earlier work and photographing trips with more affordable cameras. It’s in the vision and not in the lens and I fully believe that and I’ve explained why I opted to buy the Mamiya (in my one year with the mamiya 7 video) and will in time talk about the Leica choice. Thank you for commenting & have a good day, peace ✌🏻

[@anthonypearson4206]

Thank you for your reply. I would like to say that my comment was not intended to be a criticism of moving up to better gear but a questioning of the saying gear doesn’t matter, which in your case no it truly doesn’t as you’ve politely shown me which I appreciate. I do agree that vision, story, and emotion are more important than quality of gear. But at least in digital photography I’ve found that gear does indeed matter to a point in relation to conveying emotions or telling a story or in enacting the vision or ideas you have, as not all limitations imposed by the camera are beneficial. An example of this is lowlight photography on digital where quality of glass and sensor can make the taking of an image practically impossible. I’ve seen drastic improvements in my own work switching from Canon to the Fuji X-T line for many of the same reasons as you listed in you’re Mamiya 7 video but also because it allowed me to take images I wasn’t able to before because it didn’t posses the limitations of the previous camera. Film has an advantage here I suppose as it’s range and grain rather than noise allow even budget gear to still create images that give that “feel”, I just don’t know if that’s true for digital photography as it is with film. Again thanks for your kind and point full response and thank you for your amazing and inspiring videos. Have a great day.

[@darrelltheriault5793]

It would seem reasonable to assume that the 10,000 is much higher in today’s environment of digital photography where the time, effort and thought required to take photos is much reduced and is further impacted by social media where well meaning viewers reward mediocrity.

[@TatianaHopper]

Yes I think that number would be much higher in today’s world given the technology we have!

[@filmic1]

I guess my photography is still pretty shoddy, then....! 😢

[@artemisXsidecross]

Photography like anyone's life should be dynamic and not static. If time is not a dynamic in influencing your first 10,000 photographs, your life's experience might need even more scrutiny. 😉

[@TatianaHopper]

Well said!

[@myoung48281]

Or maybe your first photos are really the best and increased learning is just a refinement that sucks the life and joy out of the medium.

[@TatianaHopper]

I feel like this is the moment someone asks to be or not to be ? Maybe for some people is like that maybe it isn’t for others, but that’s why it’s good that we’re all different! Cheers Mark!

[@seralegre]

only the first 10.000? we wish is only that 😂

[@TatianaHopper]

🤣

[@martyjwalker]

A photographer of note says something and people run with it. It's exhausting. Your first ten thousand photos are your worst and if it's not good enough you're not close enough. It's utter nonsense and that these utterances and other so-called rules are taken as gospel and reinforced over and over again. Art has a history of breaking rules. Photography is no different.

[@WilsonGomez]

2nd and 3rd gen DSLR are so cheap anybody that wants to grow there photography from a smartphone can do it for less then $100 like a Nikon D300 and many of those camera are still in service to this day

[@Webpromotions]

In my case I need another zero on that number.

[@TatianaHopper]

Don’t be too hard on yourself! I’m sure you’re fine 😊

[@Somethingwithfilm]

You start of shit of course. Then you improve. And you reach a point where you make decent pictures. From there you can either progress or decline. Or both, multiple times. Anything creative is not a straight line.