Three Living Legends Discuss Living Pathways

Today we spoke with Helen Atthowe, David Blanchard, and Lou Johns about the living pathways they have managed for many many years.
This is a very long and in-depth conversation. We cover: how to manage living pathways, strip tillage, mowing walkways, establishing the paths, best tillers for strip tillage, and a whole lot more.
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[@notillgrowers]

Hey all, if you have detailed questions about this video, head over to this thread here on our forum to potentially engage with the growers featured here, myself, and/or other really brilliant minds in our community: notillgrowers.community.chat/post/three-living-legends-discuss-living-pathways-12791877?pid=1336494418

[@gangofgreenhorns2672]

So I added a little irrigation ditch down the middle of some of my living pathways, sort of like little chinampas. Used (legally acquired) Pepsi/Dr Pepper 2L holders (heavy plastic crate things) to keep the flood channels walkable, and so far its worked great. Is part of the overflow for a duck pond I built. Haven't seen anyone try it, but it spreads the lowest point of my property out across the parts of the garden where tree roots suck up water. Interested to see how it works for a full season.

[@jasonforsyth6378]

My grandfather used living pathways for most of his life. He died at 97. At 90 he was still putting out 300 foot of beans by hand.

[@summawub]

Great moderation. Thank you for summarizing what the farmers are saying to help us understand better. I'd love to see more pictures of some of the stuff they're talking about while they explain.

[@scottbaruth9041]

I love the "time factor" mentioned. That's the weakest link in gardening, as I always have about 3 things to do and only time for one. What i love about video's like this, is it reassures everyone that there are a 100 different methods of gardening and each and everyone can be successful in certain locations and climates. The main thing is, just go, get your hands in the dirt, and grow.

[@kensimmons9960]

The information on cutworms and mustard covercropping was very valuable to me . Thanks to all.

[@jeremyhughes5477]

Hoss tools has some good info on using mustard as a bio pest control

[@kensimmons9960]

@@jeremyhughes5477 thanks!

[@lisamcdonald1415]

Best Sunday morning of 2023. Super long video need to make a second cup of coffee. Thanks as always another brilliant video. Your awesome

[@davidpenfold]

I'm loving the shared passion

[@crisregardless5613]

This was a great discussion! Tons of great information. Jesse, I appreciate that you are willing to talk with three people that have a lot of experience and knowledge to add to no till practices, despite using tillage themselves. It is important that we are able to look outside the box of no till dogma to improve our farming practices.

[@StarChaserRanch]

Unfortunately, I live in a high desert where water is more scarce and precious. Living pathways will not work. I love how they look and would certainly enjoy them. I am partially Back to Eden gardening for the water preservation and earth covering benefits. I get lots of bark every year and lay it down thick.

[@shunya7536]

Scott hall syntropia is using “living pathways” as a source of biomass to keep beds constantly mulched (and achieve maximum photosynthesis ) using a handy jig he calls “the mulchatron” to organise the biomass. Very interesting.

[@notillgrowers]

Mulchatron is a solid tool name

[@OffGridInPanama]

For real scott is doing great things. He also bigs you up alot jessy for your use and exposure on cover crops

[@babaluto]

A stellar conversation with experience and encouragement at all levels. Much respect and gratitude to all. I enjoy your wit and passion.

[@VictoriousGardenosaurus]

I laughed out loud at the "new rule on mowing" that was 10 years old. That was a big slice of humble pie for a 4th year gardener. Its invigorating to see the tenure in the craft.

[@mckennahicks5259]

Last year I started my permanent garden doing 5’ wide beds and 5’ wide pathways so I can use my zero turn with a bagger in between can handle wheel barrows or wagons and a water hose doesn’t hurt to be drug and turned arround in it. I hate walking in the soil and stepping on crops beds are 180’ long did 2 strips last year planning on adding another row each year for another 2-3 years love seeing others doing the same

[@OkStoev]

More please :) thank you for the knowledge and years saved in future :)

[@lonestarlarf6633]

Thanks yall! Ever since hearing Hellen and some other shows, I bought her book and we’re trying out her strip tillage system on our farm! ❤

[@TeamLeeHomes]

What a good and informative show! Thank you for the 3 panelists and the super host.

[@credenza1]

I was surprised that nobody commented on the parallels between the minimal tillage/ green pathways practices described and the way that migrating herbivores affect soils.

[@rblongfellow]

Lou is a legend ❤

[@joannewolfe5688]

Loved Lou's point about maintaining microbial life that can migrate back into tilled beds. Typo in my previous comment, should read "FULL bloom" not fill bloom. Also really interesting comments from Helen about how to maintain microbial life and michorrhizae in lightly tilled ground. Like many interviews I have conducted, some of the most useful info comes at the end!

[@John-zd8jn]

Greetings from Chile ❤

[@rickthelian2215]

I enjoyed today’s interviews amazing people😊

[@aileensmith3062]

Notes notes notes! Need I mention I took a LOT of notes. REALLY enjoyed this podcast. Living pathways sounds like a great ideo. We are now 100% some type of drip irrigation. Was a positive move forward for us. Then it has been VERY dry here. We have only received 5.06 inches of rain this year. Most of it was in the fall too. So what thrived? The oh so illustrious Bermuda Grass! We are definitely on the slow road and going No-Till as well as producing our own mulch. We have also began cover cropping in our rows as well. Needing to still do quite a bit of broadforking. VERY heavy and compacted soil where we live. Anyhow we will continue to slowly trudge forward. Seems like the more we try to simplify things the more complex it becomes. Thank You for yet another great video. We definitely look forward to them every Sunday morning!

[@paulparsons5930]

Love the show! Excited for next year. Going to try Horseradish in a raised bed. Hopefully have some success.

[@davidvankainen6711]

Pen it in! I decided to let Horseradish and Mint battle each other in a small bed permanently. Well, they decided, actually.

[@stuckinthemudgarden7726]

I think this is my favorite video of all Thanks

[@adamschaafsma5839]

Really great conversation thanks for sharing.

[@zmblion]

At my last house i double dug my beds to start with. Made the beds 4ft wide and a 3ft path. I dug the paths out 6in to 10in deep and flipped that onto the beds and then filled the ditches i made in the paths up with wood mulch. It seemed to help hold water and give a place for the water to go and just tossed weeds or whatever right into the path and when i needed compost i could just sidt it out of the walkway. It seemed to work but i only got 2 yrs of that and was super labor intensive to start. Now ive got to start over but i think im still going to give it a go. I only dug it the one time lt loosened the bed up. And i just kept the bed mulched good with grass it worked slick and i had no weeds and had to water less. I didnt see any signs of nutrient lockup in the beds

[@gregmartz5235]

This is fantastic. Thank You!

[@marynunn1708]

Love this topic and the format!

[@markgardner9107]

Thank you for sharing this, have me a lot of ideas

[@paulsherrod1365]

Rock on! ,Most interesting video I’ve seen in along time.

[@LittleKi1]

This was fantastic. I love the real-world application and troubleshooting of this concept. This is where real learning happens!

[@davidvankainen6711]

Awesome! Thank you so much.

[@andrewmckinley6571]

So I glad I watched this,

[@ajb.822]

So nice to hear from someone who also has the background in dairy/crop farming ! I wasn't much involved in the crop side of things (other than the unloading etc. back at the barn etc. ) but for us in WI anyways, among conventional growers at least, those - what we knew as "contour strips" seemed to be a rather new (ish) thing in the 80s in our area or in the farm journals. We had ( well, my folks and 3 of my brothers still have) very, very hilly land. So, the contour strips seemed logical and while more work, my dad seemed to really think a lot of them. I'm just a home gardener for now but really hope to find niches to grow for market for, and hopefully get livestock of my own again real soon, to grow for us and local, direct market as well. I love farming, but didn't love a whole lot about how we did it. Since reading Joel Salatin's books, watching Alan Savory/reversing desertification/proper rotational grazing videos, and so much more, esp. no toll gardening, I'm SO, SO excited about growing food and living on the land !

[@pastihijau5043]

Really enjyed this discussion

[@theburnhams2925]

Zero-turn mowers are great for harvesting/utilizing the resultant "produce" of the pathway grass. Many mowers have "mulching" outlet chute block-outs. You can also fit a "fence" just outboard of the discharge chute. Or hold a spring (leaf) rake over the discharge. Also, at high engine r.p.m.'s a z-turn will easily deposit clippings over the full 4-foot width of the beds. A flail mower lays the clippings down right where they are, and pulverizes/ "digests" the clippings much more than a sickle-bar mower. Both types of mowers are available for B.C.S. machines. Gravely walk-behind tractors have the advantage of keeping most implements out ahead of the machine instead of just ahead of your feet as in Troy-Bilt or B.C.S. rear-mounted tillers/rotary plows.

[@garretnashua3022]

I am currently creating my garden with living pathways. My lawnmower wheels are seperated 18" inside and 22" on outside. 30" bed width. Building 8' x 8' x 8' trellises for shade cloth and tomahooks. Not shoveling. Digging with Sawzall and gloved hands. Now bagging clippings with lawnmower. Hopefully when I mow pathways the insects will be picked up.

[@joestatuto5287]

Love your videos!!!!

[@billiverschoore2466]

Great conversation, more information for sharing - suits my chatty nature. May have to rethink my 10-12 inch allotment path of broad-leafed plantain and white clover plus a bit of used pet animal bedding for winter while the plantain is dormant... although i dó chuck the small 'weeds'/plants that have to come out to make room for transplants or seeding... maybe the microlife is happy with that... 🤔 Thank you só much for all your phenomenal work (lives well lived!) and for sharing, y'aal. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽 🌳🕊💚

[@paulsherrod1365]

I agree about the purple needle is great for the pollinators. I leave a patch in my yard unmoved near my garden.

[@clarkansas6590]

Very good!

[@JAGuarnaccia]

Thanks!

[@notillgrowers]

Thank you! 🙌

[@andrewstewart9073]

This is so educational. Thank you!

[@petanisukses_garden]

it is amazing that agriculture is so fertile

[@andrewstewart9073]

I hope you record more episodes to watch ✌️

[@jborne15]

Thank you bro🫶🏼

[@joannewolfe5688]

Really enjoyed this discussion; especially I could relate to David's comments because I farmed on slope in Nova Scotia for a few years. Great soils, but steeper slopes. Cover cropping and letting vegetation get taller before mowing is critical in that situation. My primary cover was clover (red and white) and I never mowed until fill bloom was over. That kept the bees from the honey production facility nearby on my property. But I did have vole problems as well (the property was a former orchard), so one does need to keep cover short where voles are a problem. Currently I'm in Appalachia, and the big issue on my current property is quack grass: this is a real challenge.

[@dennistaylor3796]

Voles can be very destructive

[@jhh8523]

My 2 cats catch most of ours seems like!

[@dantheman9135]

ThankQ

[@waynesell3681]

Wider pathways also allow for mobility with a electric scooter that a disabled person can get out into the garden.

[@jeremyhughes5477]

Love the conversation. Are there people that are experimenting with these practices in the South East. I am in the mid GA area. Lots of pest pressure

[@Blynn-md4dx]

Fireants

[@davej7458]

Very good information it opened up something that I knew about but had not really thought about. You did mention some things about what is growing in the walkways. I would like to know more about that. What do you not want that creates problems. What is alright, and what would you prefer to grow there?

[@mystique_meadows_oh]

I will soon begin an endeavor that involves no till cultivation of hemp. Breaking ground in '24. My biggest concern is, how do i begin a new no till field. 😂 It needs some clearing and love. I'm hoping to just mow and transplant seedlings. I will however need to do something to establish and maintain the pathways. After some consideration, I believe tiling the pathways and seeding with a desirable cover/pathway crop would be ideal. Each year, applying compost to the beds and mowing/maintaining the pathways. With that said I'm interested in the best crops for pathways. Low pile and soil fixing would be ideal. These videos and related content are so inspiring and reassuring.

[@janellroehr4142]

What kind of plants do u use for the living pathways ? Grasses or clovers or what ?

[@GreenCasaConGatto]

Love this and great content! Video Note: Watching this on my tv and the 2 guy speaker’s laptop shaking is a bit distracting when the speaker is full screen - I wonder if their videos could be stabilized if another podcast is uploaded?

[@johncarter1150]

Imants is the brand of tiller/spader that Lou spoke about. Expesive equipment.

[@MovingBlanketStudio]

I'm still trying to figure out something very important... Which exactly are the vegetables depicted on Lou's clock on the wall?

[@philippamanning-smith1229]

Will this be on the podcast on Spotify etc. Its full on at my farmlet as its summer in NZ and I listen whilst in the field, and I struggle with connectivity out there. ❤❤❤

[@metalchips]

My living pathways are Bermuda grass. Pure evil.

[@aileensmith3062]

We understand as ours are as well. Any solutions in getting rid of them would be VERY much appreciated, Thank You!

[@jeremyhughes5477]

Constant edging is all I know to do.

[@aNaturalist]

Wow! Are you able to keep it mostly at bay? I've had it in small gardens, in spots. In my experience, 2 months +, and it will spread far.

[@aileensmith3062]

@@aNaturalist This year we were semi successful in controlling the Bermuda grass. We have only received five inches of rain this year. Then in a "normal" summer and we get our so called normal rains. Absolutely no logical way and staying up with it. You can pull it all out in one spot and a couple of days later it has returned. Any suggestions?

[@brucejensen3081]

​​​@@aileensmith3062I am thinking when broad beans are ready to sow, rip it and plant broad beans, then when they are done, layer rhubarb leaves over the top. Maybe sub clover then black nightshade might be easier. Maybe some tall legume then potatoes Technically it's a shallow rooting grass, a deep rooted perennial tall grass should out compete it. It's just shit, but I know broad beans work to some degree quite well, and rhubarb leaves are very large and toxic. Burr medic seems to choke everything out, maybe I will try that.

[@douglashendrickson5951]

"Lilliston rpolling cultivators, tiller, rotovators, rippers, clean cultivation, clean tillage, harrow, spader, shallow tillage, full width tillage, bed maker, minimum tillage." What part of a "no till" system are these terms and tools? Reduced tillage might be a more appropriate term for what these particular farmers are/were aiming for? Many of the tools that these farmers use disturb soils, bust sod and suppress weed growth to help them achieve their goals. Great discussion, like the panel format but you and I know there are other farmers and gardeners out there doing something more akin to "no till with their growing systems, like you Jess!

[@douglashendrickson5951]

Forgot spider gangs, cultivation, and rolling coulter!

[@douglashendrickson5951]

And disc!

[@crisregardless5613]

They all said that they are minimum tillage. There's a lot of excellent info here that is applicable to no till if you can look past the fact that they do till.

[@danphillips4590]

Use mulching mower, no side discharge

[@charliefoxtrot6017]

Flea beetles and cabbage butterfly larvae: nasturtiums. They deter the flea beetles and act as a trap crop for cabbage butterflies laying eggs.

[@paulshell1729]

One of my most troublesome pest problems every year is flea beetles. Severely limits my success with Chinese cabbage, bok choy/ tat soi type greens, eggplant etc. I have not found any acceptable (non-toxic, labor and material sensible) control solution. Once they find a bed that they like, it's pinhole city...

[@theburnhams2925]

I would have removed a few (sets of) outside "shovels" on the 6' Howard "Rota-Vator" (to make 4' tillage), kept the tractor wheel spacing standard, and pretended I was happy. I have a Howard P-50 "Select-a-Tilth" (50" wide) tiller that is almost perfect for what it does. I realize that speaking of roto-tillers on a "No Till" site is heresy but they're "just the ticket" for "busting" sod to create new beds. 4' is a good width as one only has to reach 2' from either side. And if you don't think that makes a difference, try "living with" 6' beds......your lower back will object strenuously and probably rebel! Howard makes, to my knowledge, the only "4-speed" tiller on the market. I've found that the slowest tine-rotor speed is more than adequate and also gives the greatest mechanical advantage to the tractor's engine. Soil compaction isn't much of an issue with our sandy (Fl.) sand (I almost said "soils" but it's really not that, at all...) And after 50 or 60 years you've "turned up" most of the weed seeds. I said "most of...." Always enjoy your videos Jeff & Co.

[@theburnhams2925]

It's "Jess" (not "Jeff" my bad)

[@HippocratesGarden]

"We're lacking in so much minimum tillage research".. well, yeah, because the likely outcomes, don't lead to profits for big ag/pharma/food

[@nickcasper2350]

What is the music at the end? What's the artist?

[@THICKSKIN420]

A lot of plant matter to digest! Lol

[@toldt]

Good stuff, but loooong. Found it interesting that these 3 folks are all using tractors and low tillage. Jesse, any chance that changes your thinking?

[@rochrich1223]

Buckwheat needs to be studied more. It's non micorrhizal and produces chitenase which dissolves insect shell and fungus. But...the research is all about fungal disease suppression. None about insect defense nor about competing with micorrhizal plants by taking out the fungus. Could be why the chitenase is there in the first place.

[@richardsims7840]

my pathways are undead

[@AnxiousCowboy]

whats the japanese dudes name mentioned for I can google?

[@Power_Prawnstar]

I've just had an epiphany, I had to come to this channel. So, I, most of us, can get free pallets on gum tree, is there any reason I can't pull these apart and use them as pathways? Surely they won't be a problem for the soil, they block the sun, they compost very slowly, win win right? I'd love some feedback on this as I'm starting a small holding in the next 18 months ish.

[@crowellovecraft7289]

Lol......

[@adamschaafsma5839]

Don't be triggered by tillage...got it 😅

[@mattranze]

Termite is my only problem. Is it do able in this case? Should I address the termite control first before doing the no till gardening. Thanks in advance.