Threshold Braking | ABS ON vs ABS Off

[@ouch1011]

I’ve always heard that on loose surfaces, you can stop shorter without ABS because the car starts to plow the road surface and builds up essentially a wedge of the road surface at the front of each tire, which helps to slow the car faster. However, this only works on loose surfaces. On a typical road surface, the car would stop shorter with ABS and full panic braking (letting the system work, not threshold braking). Especially since modern ABS systems can individually adjust brake pressure at each wheel so you can maximize stopping power at each individual wheel. The other thing worth mentioning, ABS allows you to maintain steering control of the vehicle. In full lockup, you lose all control of the car. You cannot steer at all, and if the road surface is slanted or there is some sort of imbalance, that will result in you sliding sideways or the car starting to rotate (spin out).

[@Kaiser-ks3yq]

One thing I'd mention: Although ABS can maximise braking to all wheels, it generally doesn't, for example, if your left wheels are on ice and right are on tarmac, they will both be limited to the limit of traction of ice, because otherwise the car would spin violently, but yes, it does adjust front-rear bias slightly. Without ABS, you could manually threshold brake for the ice, and you'd brake in a straight line, but if you brake harder (to the limit of the tarmac), the car spins towards the side with better traction (right in my example), and would possibly stop in less distance, although it depends on speed(if you're doing 100mph, you're going to spend most of that sideways {worse on paved roads}, whereas at 30mph by the time you're sideways, you're stopped), it also depends on difference in traction between surfaces etc.

[@jackpowell8155]

Thanks for saving my fingers the work!

[@jameshaulenbeek5931]

Yeah, snow and gravel build up in front of the tires and create more friction to the surface. I think a lot of modern vehicles that have "snow" and "gravel" driving settings do turn off the ABS with those settings active, or at least minimize the amount of ABS that's applied. There's a reason modern race cars use very advanced, highly adjustable ABS - the driver gets significantly better braking than without, and they can adjust for track conditions on the fly to maximize performance. EDIT: Also, the channel that is now Overdrive (formerly Driven Media; Scott Mansell) did an ABS test on pavement to show how much better it works on pavement even compared to a professional driver.

[@marcindziedzic7223]

@@Kaiser-ks3yq You are right and here is the demonstration: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bpPafGqHrKyEp9U

[@politicallyerect6086]

Not to mention flat spotting your tires on tarmac/asphalt

[@williamb1926]

Welcome back Wyatt

[@petrkolar1925]

Hey Team O'Neil! Nice to see Wyatt again. I'd love to see more content. I think a comparison between different surfaces could be really interesting, especially ice, to see if maybe ABS could do better on this surface than full on wheel lock up.

[@zeitgeist888]

Good test. Add tests on pavement and in both dry wet and mixed conditions on pavement. Mixed conditions and true unexpected emergency braking is where ABS shines since no one is able to brake all 4 wheels independently. Also braking in a curve ABS shines. Most drivers when faced with an unexpected emergency will brake hard and lock the wheels up losing steering and increasing stopping distance which only gets worse when the object they are trying to avoid hitting is getting closer. Snow and loose surfaces a locked wheel non ABS stop will be shorter in part due to the build up of surface material in front of the tire.

[@notmemeoftheweek6674]

The more of this channel I watch the more underrated I think team O’ Neil is!

[@Teamoneilrally]

@@notmemeoftheweek6674 Thank you so much, we really appreciate it.

[@Dargaard]

I got to do this many years ago on an ice skid pad, 10 runs hit the brakes as hard as possible and 10 threshold with abs, and we could consistently stop shorter with the threshold with abs then just pure abs. This was on ice alternating each run. We also shifted to neutral too as this was demonstrated to shorten stopping distance by about a car length. We also did Moose tests and brake and avoid techniques. Not disputing anything you did as you were on gravel with different variables, just sharing.

[@florian_montuzet]

Loved it ! The same test on tarmac will be nice.

[@jimgoodwin6440]

So glad you guys did this video. I used to argue all the time with people that ABS was near useless on loose surfaces and relying on it to SHORTEN your stopping distance is a fool's errand.

[@tyrisnolam]

wow I can't believe I just checked Team O'Neill channel to see how they are doing since Wyatt left and the first video I see is this!

[@Ashalmawia]

thank you for this. I know this from experience but no one ever believes me. also, great to see Wyatt again!

[@gogmorgoaway]

I've noticed significant advantage to "threshold braking" vs max chatter on ice with questionable tires. I guess the science comes down to there being no practical difference between fully released and fully locked when there's next to no traction, sliding at 2mph sorta situation, but you can slow down if you're somewhere between the two and not overwhelming the incredibly limited traction.

[@larrythorpe-tc4vi]

Can you guys do this test on pavement? I’d be super curious!

[@feb600]

They can't because abs would be vastly superior and they don't like that conclusion

[@jesse.vr6]

i think there's an older video of them doing that, with a tacoma.

[@jesse.vr6]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5SVfYCmabKIgLc

[@kristoffer3000]

@@feb600 🤡

[@rmoore07]

Interesting test! Thanks Wyatt!

[@rasalgooch8204]

man those shoes look comfy. really cool video

[@ZsomborZsombibi]

Yes, Wyatt! I've re-subsribed to this channel.

[@nimakhodayi3494]

Thank you, curious to see the results on tarmac.

[@FenriUnlisted]

Wyatt is back? Welcome back!

[@fatihuguz.]

can you make a video about using the handbrake to get out of a tight parking space in a fwd car

[@fabiank.1685]

Nice compairson. I'd like to see a compairson like this with different tires (gravel tires and semi slicks)!

[@jimvanmeggelen2213]

Another thing I've long wondered about: In an uncontrolled spin, the recommended action for the driver is to lock up all four wheels, because the inertia of the vehicle might carry it in the same direction it was going prior to the spin. With ABS, it's not possible to lock up the wheels, so the car will go in whatever direction the wheels are pointing, as soon as some sort of traction happens. I would love to see a test of the difference between a spin with ABS versus a spin without, in terms of how well the car keeps a straight line.

[@scott8919]

The whole point of ABS is to let you steer while hard braking... So on gravel it'll take longer to stop with it, but without ABS you'll just plow straight ahead. I wish this nuance was pushed in the video because all this is telling viewers is "turn off your ABS"

[@jprowland]

Would be nice to have a third comparison of trying to stop without any ABS or wheel lock at all; near but not at threshhold. When I lived in Vermont and drove on many gravel or snowy roads in my 2002 Subaru WRX I used to leave the the ABS fuse pulled out. It was full-on terrifying trying to stop on potholes or washboard when the car refused to stop while that tree keeps getting closer and closer... here in north Dallas everything is grooved concrete in the city and chipseal in the country so I just stuck it back in for inspection a few years back and left it

[@delanhenry4457]

Good day guys I am interested in seeing the difference on tarmac

[@eyezac5659]

He's BAAACK!!!

[@tomchick123]

Great vdo, adding on the finding, ABS is designed for steering when braking while locked up wheels can not, its never for shortening brake distance

[@williamcooper1023]

Have you done a will it rally video with the crown vic?

[@drtone]

ABS for cars was designed to preserve steering, not reduce brake distances, in panic situations to avoid collision by not impacting. Try tests with slamming brakes but requiring steering around moose test while holding phone or beer of choice......

[@autocrossaholic]

When my abs broke I watched this video before fixing it. Would love to see this on tarmac too.

[@coldmoonlight6361]

So.... Your ABS just broke today?

[@ALMX5DP]

@@coldmoonlight6361he saw the upload, broke his own car and then watched the video? 🤷‍♂️ 😂

[@chonglers1513]

He commented this minutes after the upload😂

[@MikeMasson]

I would be very curious about a more modern car with and without ABS like a Porsche Boxster or Cayman vs the Crown Vic just to see the difference.

[@dog_transport_fw]

Can yall do this on pavement? or while going round a corner? or while having to do an emergency avoidance?

[@feb600]

They can't because abs is vastly superior in all of these situations

[@samuelSSC14]

Nice video!!

[@fatihuguz.]

can you make a video on how to smooth out bumps and potholes using weight transfer

[@jimvanmeggelen2213]

As I understand it, the reason ABS was introduced is that it provides some steering control for people who panic brake. So, instead of locking up and losing all steering, ABS gives the driver the possibility of avoiding whatever they're heading towards. What I wonder about (and is perhaps not something that can ever be known), is how many accidents happen now because of the increased stopping distance, that might have been avoided even with a panic braking full lock up. Another question (which perhaps you can test?), is rather than straight line braking, what does it look like to perform the same test you just did, but the stopping attempt happens in a curve? (i.e. there's an obstacle in front of you that you have to avoid). Can a skilled driver with no ABS avoid a crash that a panic-braking driver with ABS cannot? Am I correct that ABS is currently not allowed in rally racing?

[@andyschirz3869]

This is good video. While most racers know this others do not and can be useful for just regular driving when deer jump out

[@jameshayes303]

lets do this with a required lane change??

[@ygrabo]

Did you do it while avoiding an obstacle? Which is a likely scenario in traffic or when taking a corner too fast.

[@brakepumingguy]

Great video Wyatt. What's your opinion on pumping the brakes on that same road surface with ABS and without ABS? Even though my past 2 cars and my current car has ABS, I actually prefer older cars and trucks that don't have ABS. I also apply and pump the brakes both right on the brakes as well as left foot on the brakes while my right foot is still on the accelerator.

[@biscuitproof-ty8ke]

Would love to see this on snow

[@ZsomborZsombibi]

There's a video already on this channel.

[@nbates66]

quite interesting, Do you think you can improve the distance by using your tyre sidewalls whilst braking?

[@RatBürgerSk8]

Nice test y'all, appreciate how you guys keep the production simple and conscise. Would ABS provide any detriment or benefit to trail braking?

[@zeitgeist888]

I don't have a lot experience on gravel but on pavement wet or dry ABS works fine with trail braking. RWD Mustangs at Bondurant school worked well and ABS can work as a safety stability control if overused but regular ABS trailbraking works fine. On FWD cars that often carry the rear inside tire it can work even better as you can carry a tire and not lose braking on the other 3 wheels or induce more rotation(oversteer) if you want or need that. Trailbraking is not near the traction threshold so ABS doesn't usually come into play unless you are trying to get more rotation in a stock or ill handling car.

[@lordthicknipples-gt2oq]

ABS probably wouldn't make much of a difference with trail braking because you wouldn't be braking as hard in the turn in, you'd be easing off the brakes. The biggest difference would be in the initial braking before the turn in, since that's when you're the hardest on the brakes and a little lockup/ABS activation is almost inevitable.

[@WilliamLevesqueineX]

Street car ABS is dogshit on track because its generally too conservative. Ive had cars all but stop braking all together when trailbraking, especially if a wheel gets off the ground or if its a bit slippery or bumpy. Its far from the systems you have on a GT3 racecar for example, its really only meant for panic braking and random swerving haha.

[@zeitgeist888]

@@WilliamLevesqueineX I'm not sure what you have experienced but I have had no issues in several Ford Focuses 00-05, WRXes, Miatas, Exocet, C5 Zo6, 09 Civic Si, AP1 S2000, Dodge Neons first and second gen and a couple Mustangs. Most were standard road cars not track focused cars. Ran at Waterford Hills, Gingerman, Mid Ohio and even the jump at Grattan never upset the ABS as long as you didn't brake while in the air. The 2002 WRX would occasionally go into ice mode on the street when braking hard on bumpy surface but the 05 and 15 WRX never had the issue nor did the other cars.

[@WilliamLevesqueineX]

@@zeitgeist888 A fair few, a friend of mine who's also a really fast driver would say the same (had those thoughts about a track prepped 08' Civic SI). "Cruising" around its ok but if you go for hotlaps its pretty bad. One of the better cars I tried was probably a Camaro ZL1. The worst was a 15' (?) WRX with a bigger rear ARB. My Veloster N isnt too bad but still hits ice mode here and there. A friend's track prepped FRS I tried had its suspension completely borked to try and figure out why it was understeering so much on entry, turns out it was the ABS just being stupid even with very light trailbraking. The Mazda3 I had was terrifying in winter, and awful at autocross with the ABS. It just gets worse the faster you go really. Gimme no assists any day.

[@bennyboyy7]

Abs is just too fast to compete with but being off road i can imagine how the wheels being locked up off could be better. On pavement though this would be a completely different story, biggest problem i see offroad is locking the tires up risks losing total control in some situations. Going into a corner with them lovked up would not be good especially if youre still moving too fast to take the turn. Not that abs would be helping you much more but at least you could reliable start turning before you go off the road. Im curious now how much it helps in the snow.

[@maxjonhylb]

Good to point out that’s an old abs system

[@phucm1282]

Wait, is Wyatt back or have I seen this video before?

[@matthewmillar3804]

When I'm driving in winter, the moment I get a little chatter my foot is slammed to the floor. Would tire type affect the results?

[@rot7296]

Yeah, basically everything that changes friction, which includes profile and rubber composition, tire pressure, which in turn is also influenced by temperature. Also, this is why you should change your tires from summer/winter type even if there is no snow, but only very low temperatures. (Continental recommends 7°C/46°F as a threshold, though that's a spectrum, and you should remember that temperature varies throughout the day and your local laws may also uave an opinion on that) In that particular test, new winter tires would have increased the brake distance.

[@cb22ng]

So when i know ill be driving on dirt the whole way of a drive, should i disconnect my abs for that dirt road drive?

[@ateamfan42]

Not necessarily. While ABS might lead to slightly longer straight line braking in some conditions, avoiding the wheel lockup helps preserve some ability to steer around obstacles (whereas fully locked wheels generally slide in one direction). Sometimes steering around something is better than trying to stop before reaching it.

[@myRandomclicks360]

❤❤❤

[@internet155]

blessed

[@ayoubsayhi3485]

The videos with or without Wyatt are not the same😀

[@Online2see]

How about new car with same test

[@ifell3]

What is the point of abs then 😅 I honestly thought it would be better with the abs. So..... corner breaking and the same one but on tarmac.

[@ericdieterich4058]

The main benefit of abs is that you can still steer. If the front wheels are fully locked you may stop faster but you won't be able to turn. Usually if you're slamming on the brakes that hard while driving on the road you're not going to stop in time to avoid whatever is in front of you so it's better to be able to steer away from it.

[@r000tbeer]

ABS is designed for your average driver to prevent a skid and allow some steering input. Also, I bet this test would have much different results on pavement.

[@ifell3]

@@ericdieterich4058 that's why I asked to redo the test but giving these factors, include the threshold breaking too no full lock 😉

[@ifell3]

@@r000tbeer as above

[@AE86FTS]

ABS would stop better on tarmac. On dirt, a little bit of locking is good because the dirt will pile up in front of the tires and slow is faster

[@fishingcarsandgaming127]

Fords if they sense that your on loose terrain usually give you very little break or all ABS

[@WhooptyDoo]

o_O Wyatt!

[@KkkKkk-gl1sj]

Please repeat the same experiment on asphalt or ice. Most likely the result will be exactly the opposite.

[@MarkCooper-z4k]

This is dangerous hog shit. You are not on tarmac, you are on gravel. The difference that makes cannot be overstated. Secondly, you are not using a modern, 4-channel ABS. You are using a shitass Ford that had at best a two channel system. The bottom line is this: If you are on pavement with modern ABS, the ABS vehicle will beat you every single time. Every. Single.

[@erikbuh7264]

First

[@Bromoteknada]

I don't know the point of this test, since the whole point of ABS is that it stops later but gives you steering control while braking. So the results are obvious. Some non-obvious result we would get if you did the threshold braking test with ABS on/off while turning in order to avoid an obstacle. "Overdrive" did a test like this a couple of years ago (but with no threshold braking).