Tim Frakes Productions Inc. Seminex Memories of a Church Divided

[@joseortegabeede8233]

J.A.O Preus was unfathomably based. Thank God for him.

[@krbohn101]

This was the best explanation video I have watched. I now fully see that what LCMS did, was indeed the best course of action. The folks that left were clearly more interested in worldly, political, and personal ideals rather than Godly. Unfortunately, it still seems to be happening today. I guess that's the way it will always be until...Come Lord Jesus!

[@lukeholte3911]

Thank God they were expelled

[@kyuhotae6410]

As a WELS Lutheran here, I am heartbroken for the turmoil in which the LCMS is embroiled. WELS and LCMS had parted ways decades ago, but I would often attend service at LCMS when on business trips and unable to find a nearby WELS congregation. A number of my WELS high school mates have eventually started attending an LCMS congregation after marriage and that includes the daughter of my own home church pastor through whom I was confirmed in 1980! I had not really known about these issues affecting/disaffecting the LCMS and am troubled, as I feel this is a problem for all of Christendom! I pray for your Synod, too, and hope for a Godly, speedy resolution for His glory! 😌

[@danbratten3103]

Interesting to note, the root of the problem that lead to Semenx also affected WELS. The problem started in the 30's and 40's. By the mid 50's the problem infected WELS over fellowship with LCMS. Many WELS church's left WELS and in 1961 formed their own Synod, the CLC. Coincidentally the year the CLC formed their Synod, WELS dissolved fellowship with LCMS.

[@kyuhotae6410]

@@danbratten3103 Thank you for the information. I had always wondered about the transition years and appreciate knowing the details!

[@danbratten3103]

You're welcome. While I was in the CLC, that subject was crammed down my throat.

[@CornCod1]

Glad to see my old pal Herman Otten in the documentary. I wrote a lot for his Christian News back in the 90's. As sad as the events were, the fact that these modernist professors and students left was a great blessing in retrospect. The fact that after 1988 these Seminexers found life so congenial in ELCA proved that the confessional crowd were correct. A lot of these Seminex grads wormed their way back into the synod and they fought deviously to push Missouri in a Liberal direction well into the 90's. Thankfully most are retired now. A lot of people don't realize just how close Missouri came to be a part the Liberal Protestant Mainline. Missouri certainly isn't perfect at the moment but I shudder to think what it would have been like if the confessionals didn't make the hard decisions that had to be made.

[@wanbaclone]

I am not a Lutheran, and this documentary was news to me. I can't help but agree with you. While we can argue over how everything happened and armchair quarterback how the confessional Lutheran contingent could have handled this more agreeably, it is clear that their fears were well founded. The words and legacies of these professors and students that drifted into what the ELCA has become bear that out. Historic Lutheranism WAS clearly at stake. I appreciate that Mr. Frakes, the director of this documentary, let those who lived it speak for themselves with no outside commentary. I sympathize with the students and professors as they clearly believe they were in the right; however, I can't see how they expected it to be resolved any other way than schism. The core of the denomination and the core of the seminary faculty and student body disagreed on a wide range of topics!

[@CornCod1]

@@wanbaclone The ultimate victory of the Confessional side enboldened others to take a tougher stand against liberalizing tendencies in their denominations. One group that took notice was the Southern Baptist Convention which was going through similar troubles at the time.

[@gr82baliveagain]

Interesting video, especially seeing the living faces and hearing their voices. I know this video doesn't pretend to present the entire situation, so I won't criticize it. It's good for what it is. I noticed how those professors and students who walked out speak about being kicked out. They weren't. Tietjen was removed and they walked out willingly, even after being urgerd to remain. I also noticed a tendency to present those who remained as "being afraid." You know...phobic. That made me go "hmm." My own pastor was a student who did not walk out. His story is interesting, too I asked him how difficult it was to stay, as it placed him in the minority. He said it caused him a moment of trepidation, until his former classmates called him and harassed him for staying. That made it easier. Ultimately, he had heard enough teaching contrary to his knowledge of Scripture and the Confessions, that he had to stay.

[@TimFrakes]

Thanks for the comment. Keeping in mind that this was a self funded project, I really did make an effort to get the "minority" point of view. The comments of Herman Otten and Gerhart Bode, are two examples. The Concordia Historical Institute was wonderfully helpful and supplied me with the J. A.O. Preus audio tape and other important photos and documents. In hindsight, I really regret not getting to talk to any of the students who chose to stay. That would have been more balanced and frankly, a better story. I simply didn't have the resources to track any of them down. The Seminex folks had gathered in Chicago at LSTC for a reunion. So that made interviewing them, relatively easy.

[@danbratten3103]

The pastor I had growing up was also one of the few students who didn't leave. If I remember correctly he graduated the next year. Best pastor I ever had.

[@michaelbrown1627]

I prefer a church that sticks to the word of God and not changing their position based on the culture of the country. Obviously, culture changes all the time and the word of God doesn’t.

[@carolkerfeld1764]

I am 60 years old and finally I see that the MSLC is under scrutiny for their transgressions. I have witnessed women of my grandma's generation talk about adultry, petifile and pervert men

[@thomasjefferson6]

To michaelbrown1627: This is why the plethora of Bible versions is such a disaster for the church. Not only are these versions produced not under the oversight of any church body, but they are amorphous, constantly changing, often to fit in with the latest fads in anti-Christian culture, such as the gender-neutral movement. Martin Luther wrote in the Small Catechism: "In the first place, the preacher should take the utmost care to avoid changes or variations in the text and wordin gof the Ten Commandments, the Creed,the Lord's Prayer, the sacraments, etc. On ghe congrary, he should adopt one form, adhere to it, and use it repeatedly year after year. Young and inexperienced peopel must be instructed on the basis of a uniform, fixed and form. They are easily confused if a teacher employs one form now and another form- perhaps with the intention of making improvements- later on. In this way all the time and labor will be lost." These wise words also apply to the Bible. The decision of intellectual "leaders" in the various denominations to scrap the venerable King James Bible has led to the loss of influence of the Bible on the wider culture. (The KJV theoretically could be restored, but it would take diigence to do so, introducing it to children at a young age, when the learning of language is easiest, and emphasizing it as the Bible for the church).

[@AmillennialMillenial]

Now in 2024, we know there is a straight line from historical critical method to complete apostasy. The LCMS did well to fire Tietjen and kick out the seminarians who walked out.

[@BigSneed404]

Agreed. We have seen the fruits of their ways. Female clergy, LGBT affirmation, critical race theory being pushed from the pulpit. When you give people an inch, they will take a mile.

[@d46512]

Rebels without a cause. In hindsight 50 years on, the foolishness of youthful rebellion is easy to see.

[@KennyBare]

The Missouri synod leadership was also foolish. All expulsions did was polarize the church more heavily. The ELCA became weirdos and the Missouri synod became hyper fundamentalist weirdos. And now, Christianity in general is in decline.

[@danbratten3103]

I find the story telling by them leaving as if they were so brave, hilarious. They didn't mention that after their "march into exile" leaving Concordia and the news cameras off; they all came back to Concordia wanting lunch.

[@TimFrakes]

That story is true. It was recently recounted during the Seminex reunion at LSTC. According to the former student who told the story, they also had to go back to their rooms to get their stuff.

[@traildude7538]

I have a unique perspective on Seminex as someone who was told by Professor John Damm, the dean at the time as I recall, that I had sunk the place. It came about after an Old Testament class where the professor declared in answer to a question that "God didn't know Jesus was going to be born" and I led a walkout from that class on the spot. I tried to talk with administration, with no luck, and so I wrote a letter addressed to the community and made enough copies for everyone. One result was that I and two friends, and several others, left at the end of the term, this at a time where a half dozen students comprised a significant portion of the student body. They closed the next year.

[@TimFrakes]

Interesting. The LSTC students staged a walkout just last month. This time the issue was student housing. Nothing new under the sun.

[@ront9459]

@@traildude7538 Were you an actual Seminex student? Do you have access to any enrollment numbers at any stage of the operation before they closed in 1983?

[@d46512]

Mr. Frakes thanks for preserving history with this balanced documentary so that my generation can try to make sense of how we got here.

[@richmondvernon9993]

The condescension is remarkable.

[@daniellantz3666]

I appreciated this very much. While I agree with some of the other comments that it leans heavily to one side of the story, we on the LCMS side of things usually do the same thing when discussing Seminex, and I'm glad to have a more nuanced picture of events.

[@lvfc_4786]

>I was finally free from fearing of being examined >Next clip is talking about how seminex was the first place seeing women as preachers You know, maybe that wasn't such a good thing.

[@Zhought3391]

Just a hint: if Walter Bruggemann supports you, and you’re seeing women preach and being ordained, that’s likely a sign you departed out of orthodoxy at some point.

[@rantingcullinarian]

Thank you for this.

[@piercethelutheran]

inspirational story of our intellectual heritage

[@danbratten3103]

The pastor I had growing up in the mid 80s thru 2000 was one of the few students who stayed with the Seminary & the LCMS. My late Grandfather had this Pastor in his top 5 that he ever heard, which included P.E. Kretzmann in that top 5.

[@myleshagar9722]

Seminex people came up to Waterloo Lutheran Seminary in Ontario Canada in the fall of that year 1974. It was clear then that the tide of modernism could not be reversed anywhere. Arch modernist Gregory Baum from the Catholic Church was also feted there. That seminary is closed now to be an all inclusive college in the Lutheran tradition, i.e. on Lutheran real estate. Big surprise. Everything went crazy around 1970 in all the churches right across the continent and the ruin and decline is almost complete now.

[@jd4evr2001]

I know that seminary very well: as well as at 1970. As a 19year old, I was sexually seduced by 2 graduating seminarians there. I was so embarrassed that I never spoke again to the Lutheran pastor who (unkowingly?) sent me off to them. One of those 'pastors' was finally turned in by another pastor's son 30+ years later and was put on trial. Moral Liberals: can't stand'em.

[@zerospacer]

So how's it going, ELCA?

[@richardbaranzini8805]

Even the ELCA predicts its future as disappearing altogether by statistical tends.

[@rantingcullinarian]

Better question.. How’s hell?

[@joerodriguez6043]

It’s going well thank you. God has called us away from the country club LCMS into an Easter Church that proclaims and lives the Evangelical Faith, thank You

[@rantingcullinarian]

LOL@@joerodriguez6043

[@frogleg10]

@@joerodriguez6043 your delusion is consistent with the ELCA country club. The ELCA does not honor the Sacrament instituted by Christ and your heterodoxy is apparent in your approach to religion. Is the ELCA really Christian today? Hard to say. According to your female presiding bishop there is no hell? And St Paul is a MCP and the Bible is out of step with the times.

[@thomasjefferson6]

Some things are not mentioned in this very interesting video. 1) Dr. John W. Benken, president of the Missouri Synod from 1935 to 1962, did not take lay concerns about the growing liberalism at the St. Louis Seminary seriously, and was always reassured by Alfred O. Fuerbringer, president of the St. Louis Seminary, that all was well. After he stepped down from the presidency, Benken became aware of the real situation, and even wrote to the seminary about it. He was ignored. He took his concerns public, but had no influence; by 1968, liberals were in control where it counted in the still largely conservative Missouri Synod. The new president of the synod, Dr. Oliver Harms, was unconcerned about any liberalism at the St. Louis Seminary, and was more interested in closer ties to the American Lutheran Church, which at the time was rapidly moving away from its own conservative theological heritage. 2) By 1969, Missouri Synod members as a whole had had enough of the mediating to liberal Oliver Harms, and voted him out of office on the second ballot, replacing him with Dr. J.A.O. Preus. At the same time, liberals, well aware that Preus might become synodical president, maneuvered Dr. John Tietjen into position to be appointed the next president of Concordia Seminary, even though his predecessor was still in office. (To help accomplish this the liberal Fuerbringer retired before church bylaws required him to do so). Liberals were still dominant on the Board of Control at this time. What was desired was to see to it that Concordia Seminary would have a man in charge wholly in sympathy with what was going on at the seminary. This maneuvering was done to ensure that Tietjen was seminary president before the new synodical president was in place to have any say in the matter. Tietjen at the time had only a few nominations from local churches, far fewer than had Martin Scharlemann or Ralph Bohlmann both members of the faculty minority in St. Louis. 3) At its convention in Denver in 1969, the Missouri Synod voted to establish pulpit and altar fellowship with the America Lutheran Church (ALC), even though the ALC had pulpit and altar fellowship with the very liberal Lutheran Church in America (LCA). To effect this, Missouri Synod liberals and pro fellowship people in the ALC did their best to emphasize the supposed conservative credentials of the ALC such as its constitution, which referred to the Bible as the "inerrant word of God" (largely a dead letter in the ALC by this time). In order do its best to establish closer ecumenical ties with the Missouri Synod, and obtain a YES vote at the convention in Denver, liberals in the ALC agreed to put off their planned vote on the ordination of women until after the 1969 Convention in Denver. The ALC then voted to ordain women to the ministry- directly contrary to the stance of the Missouri Synod- in 1970. Because it was in pulpit and altar fellowship with the ALC, this would require the Missouri Synod to in effect accept female ALC pastors in its own pulpits, thus obtaining in a round about way women's ordination in the Missouri Synod as well. In 1981, and after the walkout of the liberals, the Missouri Synod ended pulpit and altar fellowship with the ALC. 4) the 1974 walkout by liberals was not the first public protest that liberals had engaged in. In the summer of 1973, ad the Synodical convention in New Orleans, hundreds of them made a public protest when the convention adopted A Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles (authored largely by Dr. Ralph Bohlmann, one of the Faculty Minority at the St. Louis Seminary) as an official doctrinal statement. At that same convention, liberals on the Board of Control were voted out, and conservatives voted in to replace them. Now the Seminary no longer had a liberal Board of Control to overlook the growing liberalism at the St. Louis Seminary. 4) The other seminary in the Missouri Synod, the one in Springfield, was wholly out of sympathy with what was going on at the seminary in St. Louis. As mentioned in the video, Dr. J.A.O. Preus had been president of that seminary. 5) John Tietjen, Concordia Seminary professor (1969-1974) did his graduate study at the very liberal Union Theological Seminary in New York City, which helped him develop his own liberal theology, and where he also established extensive media connections. 6) the walkout in January of 1974 was planned well in advance; the liberals at Concordia Seminary will well aware that things were reaching a crisis point by the fall of 1973. The actual walkout was intended for December of 1973, but Arthur Piepkorn, a member of the Faculty Majority, died on December 13. This led to the Board of Control cancelling its December 17 meeting with the St. Louis Seminary (out of respect for Dr. Piepkorn and at the request of his family), and so the resolutions that liberals knew that the Board was going to implement were put off. Because liberals had already planned responses to what they knew was coming, those plans had to be postponed, because nothing happened in December 1973. This may be why Seminary President Dr. John Tietjen protested the cancellation of the December 17 meeting. 7) the liberals got help from the very liberal Eden Theological Seminary (of the very liberal United Church of Christ), and from the liberal Jesuit St. Louis University (Roman Catholic) 8) the most liberal elements within the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod were in the northeastern states of the country, which were also the most liberal states in the nation 9) Dr. Martin Scharlemann, acting president of Concordia Seminary after Tietjen, was hated by the faculty majority at the Seminary, who regarded him as a turncoat. In the late 1950s Scharlemann had published a number of essays which had significant liberal implications. At the time, he was backed by the faculty majority at the St. Louis Seminary. Scharlemannn, however, had personal reservations about what he had written, and publicly withdrew his essays from circulation in a dramatic reconciliation with the Missouri Synod at its convention in Cleveland in 1962. In 1970, it was Scharlemann who sent a personal letter to President of the Synod, Dr. J.A.O. Preus, expressing his concerns about what was being taught at the St. Louis Seminary, where he was also a professor. This led the the establishment of the Fact-finding Committee. When Scharlemann (part of the conservative minority five on the faculty) was appointed acting president following the suspension (not dismissal) of Dr. John Tietjen, and in spite of his solid academic credentials (three earned doctorates), his appointment outraged the faculty majority. 10) Conservative students at Concordia Seminary had no voice during this time, and had no real say in the direction that the student body, led by Gerard Miller, decided to go. 11) After leaving Concordia Seminary, and helping to lead a breakaway from the Missouri Synod, the liberal professors helped form a new denomination, the Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC), which, in one of its first statements, issued a plea for Christian unity, and in one of its first actions, passed a resolution approving of the ordination of women. 12) The AELC merged with other liberal Lutheran groups to form the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) in 1988, which has since approved such things as abortion rights and homosexual weddings, and which saw its membership go from 5.2 million to less than three million by 2023. 13) the split in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod remains the only case in the history of American Christianity where the conservative element won out rather than the liberal. 14) The liberal walkout from the LCMS was miniscule; only about 4% of LCMS members walked out, and less than 250 congregations (out of more than 6,000) opted to leave the Synod. This was far less than the liberal elites had anticipated, and there was no possibility that such a small number of people could financially support Seminex. Preus was correct when he said rather bluntly at the time that Seminex would "wither away" in a few years- which it did. This whole story would make a great drama as a feature film.

[@TimFrakes]

Wish I could have interviewed you for the documentary! Thanks for the perspective.

[@thomasjefferson6]

And thank you for making it! I once knew a former student of Seminex.

[@frankconnors9497]

First, my sincere thanks to Thomas Jefferson for writing this as it explains much of what I had wondered about after finally leaving the LCMS in 1979. I was one of many lay eyewitnesses to this and yes, I was old enough to listen and figure out what was going on. Winners? Losers? I didn’t then and don’t see now any real winners in this. Maybe one side prevailed over the other. Nothing was “won.” How is the word of Christ advanced through the scriptural mandate defining the church’s mission when the two sides are fighting like hell for their heavenly cause? There’s only one answer to that question…it cannot. Preuss and Tietjen along with the seminary professors were scholars of the first order. They all had doctorates but such academic standing is irrelevant when common sense and reason packed up and left town resulting in the default resort to craven power instead of measured reason and dialogue. Such attitudes by these “leaders” spread resulting in the pain the churches experienced far from St. Louis. Yes, people took sides and I witnessed it. And J.A.O. Preus? By his own admission he “destroyed the Synod.” He "weeps" from his actions then turns around and has the temerity to present himself as the solution to the very problem he helped create. That’s a new definition of hubris. I didn’t stick around to find out who “won” or who “lost” but I must admit your comments do finally shed light on the outcome. Like I said previously, there were no winners or losers here; only those who prevailed. And it begs the question whether or not the LCMS is headed for another train wreck once more. Thankfully, I won’t be around next time. I left the LCMS and the Lutheran movement and have not stepped inside an LCMS church in over 40 years. That “nightmare” way back when WAS avoidable. Quite frankly, I have NO sympathy for either side.

[@toddvoss52]

@@frankconnors9497 If you don't mind - where did you go when you left the Lutheran movement?

[@TimFrakes]

This is great stuff. Without turning this into a 9 episode mini series, I found it difficult, if not impossible to adequately cover the Seminex back-story. That's the big difference between television and print. That said, I'll bet you would have made a great interview for the doc. Wish we had crossed paths when I was producing it.

[@MarkLatvala]

Would like a little discussion of the century long context. That is, almost from 1890 you see every major American denomination struggle over the same basic issues. In every previous incarnation, the liberal or progressive elements won out. But here in the aftermath of the 1960s the conservatives stood astride the path to progressivism and said, "Stop!" How was this possible? Has it made a difference in the aftermath? Can we learn from this? God bless everyone.

[@toddvoss52]

Very interesting but much too one sided. But the minority I suppose, being smaller, had sheer lesser number of survivors to interview. There two good books on this - one massive one published by CPH (very strongly against seminex) and another by one of your neutral interviewees

[@TimFrakes]

Yea. Would have loved to have had more LCMS folks.

[@ront9459]

I would like to find some statistics on Seminex beyond the initial walkout. What was their enrollment in fall 1974 or subsequent years? How many people graduated each year? How many graduates got placed in pastoral positions, either LCMS or AELC? I would suppose that such numbers took a nosedive when Preus successfully outlawed LCMS placement of Seminex graduates and fired the district presidents who had defied him. Once it became clear that career prospects for Seminex graduates were limited, its days were numbered, forcing it to close in 1983

[@TimFrakes]

My sense from talking to Seminex faculty and students is that Seminex came to an end intentionally serving as a catalyst for the union of the LSA, ALC and the AELC. Perhaps you have information that I am unaware of?

[@ront9459]

@@TimFrakes Wikipedia had some statistics on rebuilding the regular seminary, 194 in fall 1974, 284 in fall 1975, 354 in 1976, 432 in 1977, 561 in 1978, 664 in 1979, 724 in 1980. I am seeking parallel statistics for Seminex if you have access to such numbers

[@deniseeulert2503]

The pastor of the church I was a member of misrepresented the division as being the ranting of a minority of students and professors. At the time I had no idea how incorrect that was. Now I do.

[@s.k.6616]

Thank God I graduated after this B.S.

[@RONALDLJONES-ik6xo]

Because the ECLA reject the Bible I ask that each member review and ponder...LUKE 23: 28 BUT JESUS TURNED TO THEM AND SAID, O DAUGHTERS OF JERUSALEM, DO NOT WEEP OVER ME; BUT WEEP OVER YOURSELVES AND OVER YOUR OWN CHILDREN. 29 FOR BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING IN WHICH THEY WILL SAY, BLESSED ARE THE BARREN AND THE WOMBS THAT NEVER GAVE BIRTH AND THE BREASTS THAT NEVER GAVE SUCK. 30 THEN THEY WILL BEGIN TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, FALL ON US; AND TO THE HILLS, COVER US. I pray that God touches your heart through the Holy Spirit and that you repent.

[@johnmarquardt1991]

Arrogant seminex professors.

[@EnergyMaxWh]

They do speak in a self centered manner.

[@donrichter3523]

Big time narcissists…..

[@villarrealmarta6103]

So now they’re ELCA the Seminex group?

[@danbratten3103]

Yes, the Semenx group voted to merge with 2 other church bodies to form ELCA. I wonder if those original Semenx professors and students are proud of the seed they sowed? I wonder if any have swallowed their pride and at least said "oops"?

[@villarrealmarta6103]

@@danbratten3103 i wonder the same.

[@BigSneed404]

​@@danbratten3103their type never apologize, they only double down.

[@a-gappower1574]

It’s very telling from the video those who supported the expulsion talk about God, the word, and truth, and the ones interviewed who were glad they left to the ELCA talked about how I lightened they were and basically didn’t mention Gods word at all. Lol

[@donrichter3523]

I was 7yrs old at the time of the schism. My parents never told me about it. My pastor(s) never talked about. I knew nothing of it until well into middle age. Some make it sound like the Inquisition. I would say, if Preus was correct, that Tietjen and the faculty were teaching something other than inerrancy, good riddance! It was not their place to go down the historical-critical road, it’s not what the vast majority of the synod congregations believed or wanted. Obviously since only about 200 congregations left the LCMS. I’m glad the rot was rooted out, just another liberal infiltration. In fact, it appears the Seminex group even dragged the ELCA further left than expected. If this was what they believed, then it’s a big “why bother?” They don’t even find homosexuality a sin, when it’s mentioned in 26 passages, I believe. How can they honestly even confess their sins?? Might as well be a Presbyterian. If the Seminex grads had been placed, I can’t fathom the damage they would have caused.

[@lynnerussell1440]

Seems very one-sided. Wish there was more explanation from seminarians that decided to stay.

[@BonhommeChurch]

Thanks for the comment. Keeping in mind that this was a self funded project, I really did make an effort to get the "minority" point of view. The comments of Herman Otten and Gerhart Bode, are two examples. The Concordia Historical Institute was wonderfully helpful and supplied me with the J. A.O. Preus audio tape and other important photos and documents. In hindsight, I really regret not getting to talk to any of the students who chose to stay. That would have been more balanced and frankly, a better story. I simply didn't have the resources to track any of them down. The Seminex folks had gathered in Chicago at LSTC for a reunion. So that made interviewing them, relatively easy.

[@lynnerussell1440]

@@BonhommeChurch I had a pastor that stayed. He never spoke about it at all.

[@patrickhansel3916]

I just came upon this, and I thank God for this video, for Seminex' witness, and for the work of the Holy Spirit in renewing the Lutheran church. The heresy, on so many levels, lies with the conservative takeover and their punishing theology and ecclesiology.

[@lukerhode8960]

Conservatives, by definition, cannot take over an institution. The continued heresies and lies espoused by the so-called " liberal" faction continue to distress the church to this day.

[@joseortegabeede8233]

so for you, ""conservative takeover" is staying true to the inerrancy of the Scriptures and not changing with the times? Lol If so, then you have departed the Christian faith already, you just don't know it yet.

[@joerodriguez6043]

You are correct brother Patrick,God bless

[@donrichter3523]

@patrickhansel3916, appears Satan works thru you…….stay in your ELCA bubble.

[@chinchillaintheheat2641]

The fruits of Herman Otten, principally his nastiness towards any disagreement and his political, cultural conservatism, continue to rend the synod. Even if you believe the seminex students and staff where pernicious modernists uniquely deserving of hell, what Otten did was often nothing short of libel. He gleefully attacked and successfully defamed many of his Christian brothers, ruining lives and further fracturing the church catholic. Without him and his publication, there may have been a real shot at reconciliation and unity. Instead, theological moderates that arise in the synod continue to be rooted out and forced to walk the plank into either the theologically rotted-out ELCA or the small and insignificant LCMC and NALC. Christ, come soon!

[@ajpreus]

Why do you think the ELCA is the way it is?

[@joerodriguez6043]

Because we are Faithful

[@MrAJW1983]

If Otten prevented reconciliation with those lying hypocrites, three cheers for Otten.

[@donrichter3523]

Who wants reconciliation with apostates?!?

[@thomasjefferson6]

Examples of Otten's libel? As for "reconciliation", this was not possible. Either the historical-critical method is a legitimate approach to the Bible, or it is not. Dr. Tietjen, not only insisted on the method, but insisted that a proper seminary instruction at the graduate level could not be conducted without using the historical-critical method. In this he had the support of 45 of the 50 faculty members.