Tim Kask on TSR #3: Gary Gygax vs. Magic Users

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TSR legend Tim Kask talks about Gary Gygax's bias against magic users and the hearty debate he and Gary had about the "magic missile" spell. Excerpted from Tim's seminar at Gary Con, March 6, 2016.
You can meet tabletop legends like Tim Kask in person - or even play a game with them - every year at Gary Con!
www.garycon.com

[@GameSack]

He keeps teasing us with that pie but he never eats it! In this episode he's finally about to eat the pie. He's got the fork and he's going for it... oh yeah you eat it up real good! What?? NOOO! Why must he tease us so? Eat the pie! This episode ends on a cliffhanger.

[@GameSack]

+Dorks of Yore That would be amazing set to this music: kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5jCg4l-h5t0p7c

[@dorksofyore]

+Game Sack An excellent choice for scoring most any activity.

[@jordaninja86]

My dad Nick Sweis played with Gary gygax when he first made dungeons and dragons. Prolly the first person to ever play it actually. Hed cross over lake Geneva when he was at northwestern military academy on weekends and play with his buddies John Ratner and Peter sweeney. Maybe hes mentioned them a couple times probably not but it would be cool because I just saw this now and my dad told me his story with Gary like 3 weeks ago

[@BrettCaton]

That pie later appears in a machine in Fallout 4.

[@yuripetrovic7606]

Me playing AD&D 2E: "Man, I think Gygax was a little harsh, I can't do anything as a Mage" My buddy playing a Lv3 Mage in 5E: "Hypnotic Pattern" *All enemies collapse* Me: "...... ok Gygax had a point"

[@FiveofHearts1]

Sleep at first level too.

[@paulwolffart1251]

I loved how magic users started out as the weakest characters at the beginning of a campaign. If they survived to higher levels then they of course became the most powerful member of the adventuring party if played correctly. That heroic fighting man may be able to hold his own with his sword of the oncoming orcs one foe at a time, but the magic user can take the entire force out with a well placed fireball.

[@doncoyote68]

That heroic fighting man also have two to three hundred people under him.

[@justinjanicki6561]

@@doncoyote68 a few fireballs clearing out a lot of those soldiers will put a stop to that pretty quick. Through charred corpses or the survivors failing their morale and fleeing

[@johnspencer7838]

Does ANYONE know of video of Gary Gygax being interviewed or just talking? I love hearing these historical figures but can't seem to find stuff for Gary. Thank you

[@swirvinbirds1971]

Gary was right. Now days everyone has magic-user like powers to keep up with the high magic world of modern D&D.

[@ggggg77273]

The problem is that the games in the modern day need to appeal to modern audiences, so rangers have to have superpowers, and so do fighters, and so do paladins. Nobody has just ~ one ~ special thing they can do, every class becomes a man who can cast spells in some way. I always liked how Palladium fantasy had more clear cut dilineations between what classes like priests were doing as opposed to "real" magic users.

[@joshuaanderson9938]

So true

[@swirvinbirds1971]

@@ggggg77273 Ikr... No one wants to play Frodo Baggins, they want to play the Witcher.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

@Ricky Moore sounds like a you problem and balance is EXACTLY what the modern game tried to do while Gary's version was very unbalanced.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

@Ricky Moore Why are you even trying to argue with me about balance? Gary was right and the modern game strives to achieve balance by giving every class 'magic'. That's the entire point here. Gary's was right and the game was better off with the imbalance of weak Magic-Users that became more powerful than the other classes at higher levels. So again Gary was right and you seem to agree with that by your own words.

[@Tysto]

It's bizarre that Gygax wanted to keep wizards weak & yet gave them hugely powerful spells at higher levels. But fighters only got… a second attack.

[@MrRourk]

Page 43 of Chainmail III Edition only 4th Level and Higher Fighters are on that. So Lower Level Fighters can't hurt any of the monsters listed. You got to be at least 4th Level to fight back.

[@ragnararneson209]

To be fair Fighters get a ton of HP and great saving throws at higher levels. And in 1974 OD&D they were the only class able to use 96% of the magic weapons in general and magic swords in particular (all of which were aligned in that original set, and a large percentage of which had special powers).

[@arcanefeline]

As a wizard fan, I believe the sharp stick users are just envious of our reality-bending powers.

[@daviddamasceno6063]

Gary knew what he was doing. Current state of D&D is a perfect example of why.

[@paulsmart4672]

Now that Gygax's influence is finally disappearing D&D has become a wildly popular, borderline mainstream game.

[@thekittenfreakify]

Yes and a worse game.

[@ghosto3624]

@@paulsmart4672 mainstream doesn't mean good.

[@paulsmart4672]

@@ghosto3624 "Good" is very subjective here. People mostly didn't like it before. Now they mostly do. And the people who resent the changes mostly point to their own weirdo exclusionary neuroses rather than any actual change to the game.

[@ghosto3624]

@@paulsmart4672 I haven't claimed that 5e or Gary Gygax influence of the game is good or bad. I'm stating that mainstream is not synonymous with good. Not only that, the reason for 5e spike in popularity is not exclusively tied to its streamlined rules or accessibility (prior editions were easier than 5e) but nerd culture has spiked it popularity as well, video games, superheroes, fantasy ect. Not only that, but 5e was also brought up in the age of streaming where people can actually see what the game looks like and not word of mouth. 5e came out in the right time with the right audience.

[@shada0]

I remember growing up that all my friends who where also into fantasy all went through their fantasy phases on which class they'd preferred.

[@docsavage8640]

And now almost every class is basically a superhero magic-user. That's why I play "1st edition."

[@wtfduud]

I remember the first time I was playing I was surprised by how weak Wizards were, especially at level 1, I thought our Dungeon Master had read the manual wrong. Only a single spell at a time. Spells have to get memorized all over again after each casting. Spells require materials to cast. It takes 8 hours to memorize spells (Which meant that a level 1 wizard could only deal 2-5 damage every 8 hours). Just kept getting worse and worse the more I heard about it.

[@VorpalDerringer]

Damage is what crossbows and hirelings are for. Sleep is the uber combat spell at low levels.

[@thothamon9046]

Counterpoint: sleep spell

[@randalglyph4967]

If Gygax was incapable of understanding why anyone would want to play a wizard character, why was one of his earliest and most favorite characters Mordenkainen the Wizard? This sounds like a convenient story to cover up the need for awkward kludges used for play balance in poorly visualized rules that never worked very well. And if nobody wants to play a wizard, then you won't need to make rules to hamstring them, since nobody would want to play them, already! So, like many things Gygax claimed to believe (and may have admitted weren't true later - "Tolkien was a strong influence." 2002 interview) he didn't believe that claim right from the start.

[@mero40k]

I believe this 100%. I'm not a huge dnd guy but I've been watching more videos lately and am seeing soooo much Jack Kirby and Stan Lee influence in his modules.

[@thothamon9046]

Now everyone gets to be a magic user. Dragonborn paladin-monks get to shoot laser beams out of their bums.

[@adamfox1669]

Have a white box set, 1974/1st print. Happy to sell

[@WoWiee1994]

will you guys be releasing the full video of the panel. or is it available somewhere already?

[@dorksofyore]

+WoWiee1994 We will eventually, but not until we have finished the series as mini-documentaries. In short form they reach many more people and encourage more discussion, all of which is good for growth and awareness of the hobby.

[@WoWiee1994]

+Dorks of Yore awesome! thanks for getting back to me and youve definitely earned one more sub

[@PtolemyJones]

Then why are high level mages always so dominant?

[@dorksofyore]

I think they are more so in recent editions than they were in OD&D/1st Edition.

[@PtolemyJones]

I was weaned on first ed. trust me, by the time they got to fifth or sixth level, mages dominated.

[@swirvinbirds1971]

PtolemyJones I wouldn't say they dominated. Number of spells per day and the fact that they were the slowest to level up kept them somewhat in check. Heck old d&d a magic-use was lucky to survive long enough to get to those levels.

[@mazirian9261]

@@swirvinbirds1971 Exactly, the mage will be low level at the same experience of the party, but their power at high level is fantastic, since they can progress farther, albeit slower.

[@josephteller9715]

Because of some major design mistakes that have been repeated time and again. Rather than treating magic to have an internally consistent logic and approach they made it possible to assign practically anything to magic. Wishes and other high level fuzzy magic spells, included because they wanted "a wizard did it" to be a major plot point fill in for bad physics, weird situations or taking stuff away from players, caused major problems. Scaling all combat spells (adding more and more dice of damage) is also a definitive problem, Players & GM not using the rules as written in regards to SPELL COMPONENTS made it too easy. If high level spells required components then people would be less likely to use them to dominate. Many simple limits can be put in place that aren't (ex: Line of Sight need to hit targets) would help, as blind mages can't cast. Also if the grappling rules had not been and always continue to be mucked up... a mage that must use their hands can be restrained. A mage that needs to speak can be gagged or silenced or muffled or punched in the throat etc but if such limits are ignore then its hard to stop casting or interrupt it. And mages don't dominate if the non-mages get their hands on magic items (or depending on which version of the rules) or can cast a spell from a scroll.

[@josephteller9715]

So, whatever happened to this channel and why did it go silent?

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Very cool history lesson Yes the magic user of 1AD&D was very weak compared to the 5e version.

[@danielgoldberg5357]

That was awesome. I love this. *Subscribed*

[@maxwelljarowey2612]

So what happen when fireball was added did gygax go mad

[@celebrim1]

Fireball and lightning bolt preexisted D&D and had been incorporated into even Chainmail to allow a "Gandalf" type character. In early versions of the game 5th level was a real turning point in M-U's abilities where they went from being very weak and only able to really do a few things to contribute to being powerful glass cannons that if protected could change the course of combat. But even though they became very powerful, they were always squishy and at risk of being one shotted.

[@gabrielamaral978]

Nowadays magic users are just better than others

[@tertia0011]

Gygax didn't want wizards weak. Read the text in Men & Magic when describing Magic Users (p6): 'Magic Users are perhaps the most powerful characters in the the game, but it is a long, hard road to the top.' The character that gets Fireball, Invisibility, Fly, Teleport, Cloudkill & Reincarnation, Disintegrate (yes can kill Dragons in one spell if ST fail), Death Spell etc. is a weak character & reflects Gygax bias against magic users. Hog wash. A magic missile needing to hit against AC is perfectly logical - it is not a beam of energy. It has to penetrate armour & natural defence. The target isn't static & unarmoured. At minimum a ST is offered to target for other spells like disintegrate. Task says a lot of things to promote himself & the product - that is his job.

[@familiabuitoni]

Magic Missile!!! My favorite! xDDD

[@dimitardimitrov7950]

In the video hee talks about a book Orc das any one have ida on the author of the book or some link ty.

[@ryanmichael1298]

What kind of pie?

[@edwardyoung8241]

I of course am speaking from a place of ignorance compared to Mr. Kask, but I just simply don't buy this. I think he's remembering moments when EGG talked up the classic warrior hero, or complained about a PC M-U doing something that bugged him in a game. But, Gygax loved Jack Vance, who essentially wrote about nothing but wizards as the protagonists, one of his principal characters was Mordenkainen, and paragraph after paragraph of his writing for TSR and otherwise revolves around the power, joy, and options for wizards in the game he co-invented. I just don't buy the idea that Gygax disliked the class wizard worked to make it less playable.

[@celebrim1]

I agree. I don't buy this based on other documentation and testimony I've read. This sounds like sour grapes from a player. Gygax very famously believed you should never give players an inch or they'd demand a mile, but I don't think his reluctance to let magic be powerful had anything to do with his belief players should only play fighter archetypes.

[@theTYTAN3]

... in my experience the exact opposite is true. The first few levels the magic users are relatively even with the melee characters, but as they level up they quickly take the advantage.

[@dorksofyore]

You mean in recent editions?

[@theTYTAN3]

Yeah, things have changed alot since 1.0

[@Spectre2434]

Gygax was very limited in his conceptualizations

[@anon-yw4wd]

This is why 2E.

[@petersmith3004]

Well guess what magic users run the game now boys

[@cygil1]

So this is the guy responsible for "Magic Missile always hits"? Why not beef up the damage and have it be a standard roll?

[@davemustang8173]

he literally tells you why Because Gygax hated wizards, and Tim asked to give spellcasters at least one spell that can't miss so they don't get bullied

[@pentegarn1]

All us wizards than you sir. lol

[@shawnbaxter1001]

The magic in D&D is out of control these days much like the bullshite Psionics that chased me out of the game back in the real days!

[@jordanhoke9025]

my wizard merlin killed half a army with 2 spells

[@kedabro1957]

Which two?

[@jrr___7902]

@@kedabro1957 Probably "Summon Mountain Dew" and "Blow DM.."