Timed Turn - VFR Into IMC - Graveyard Spiral

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flythewing.com/308/Blog/Entrie... A VFR pilot that flies into a cloud is likely to get out of control - usually into a 'graveyard spiral'- within 90-seconds. In this 5-minute Fly The Wing Flight Maneuver video, I demonstrate what happens when you haven't had 40+ hours of Instrument training and you lose sight of the horizon with Private Pilot student Dan, in a Cessna 172.
Enjoy more videos on the garrywing KZbin channel, and visit the Fly The Wing website for blog articles, links and flight training specials --- FlyTheWing.com

[@scottstryder]

This is an excellent demonstration of the beginning of a graveyard spiral.

[@BradNewton]

Great demonstration! Almost finishing my IFR training and it is the best investment. Learned so much about instrument flying and I have more of an appreciation of the physiological effects (which I read about during VFR training but didn't fully appreciate).

[@Metoobie]

Fantastic video! Good on your student for instinctively checking that you had the controls. Great demo!

[@CaptainReverendo]

More videos please, these videos are great!

[@joelmulder]

I'm definitely gonna try this out with my instructor next time, great demonstration!

[@FranksFlights]

Hi Gary. Another good video! I liked how you had him close his eyes and try to fly the plane. Instrument flying is definitely a mind over body experience. I would recommend an "end card" at the end of your video to lead your viewers to your previous video. Its working for me. Keep the vids coming, I am learning alot from them!

[@zappatx]

Now that ranks up to the most useful clip of all!!! Thanks!

[@airbornevision2483]

Nice video, explains what I went through very well a few years back with a young helicopter pilot, who fly into cloud and made a right turn that quickly became a left spiral, I could see exactly what was happening as it happened by looking at the instruments and knew my pilot had lost all spatial awareness and control of the aircraft, aside from being lucky enough to have survived it, I actually had it fully recorded on gps trail file, scares me just thinking about it even now. And going anywhere near clouds while flying brings on a lot of anxiety.

[@abstractbrainscans]

Airborne Vision wow, yeah that is a good example. Always trust your instruments. It's easy to develop a concern about a particular risk if you have had a bad experience, but remember that sometimes we can focus on that risk at the expense of identifying other relatively insidious risks. I've heard that the trick is to get back on the horse as soon as possible to minimise the effect of overthinking or emotional jetlag by maintaining currency of experience in varied conditions...

[@tomt3956]

How can a right turn become a left spiral? What do you think of the Kobe crash, was it the same thing? I mean the pilot was IFR trained, he must have had enough experience and awareness to look on the instruments...

[@user-nm7lm8ru4f]

the video is soooo good!! thank you!

[@in2flying]

Great video. Thank you!

[@StingFlight]

Great job! Thanks!

[@fedelombardi6676]

Hi Gary I looooooooooooooove your videos! They're so short and informative as nothing I've seeing here. I'm a CFII and to be honest with you I never thought of demonstrating this maneuver to a student to help them understand what I'm trying to teach them. Would you mind posting tips for CFIs on just like you did on this video?

[@KJ-qd4zz]

That is scary

[@moosejohnson9431]

Woosh!!!!

[@LK-hq7mh]

Gary wing his real name ???

[@petesmith9472]

The best part of this video was the throw away line...straighten the wing before yanking back ...attitude, airspeed decide.

[@ethanboyd7843]

In fairness, even the most basic VFR pilot would have artificial horizon instrumentation right? Not saying it is a fail-safe, but it's not exactly 'close your eyes' either

[@jackcoast1]

Nice video ! Shouldn’t the faa strongly encourage all pilots including sport pilots to get thier instrument rating? Simply for the emergency aspect

[@GarryWing]

I see your point, but I don't think that's necessary. I flew for years VFR before I had my Instrument. If you fly within your own personal limitations, and that of your airplane, you can mitigate many of the risks.

[@wjatube]

Given the high number of crashes due to VFR into IMC (spatial awareness) coupled with the fact that clouds do fill our skies, why aren't there mandates for all pilots to be IFR-certified?

[@choosetolivefree]

Youd think that would be a fundamental part of any flight training, wouldn't you

[@uncleruckus2974]

@@choosetolivefree there is a 3 hour instrument requirement for PPL

[@williamrunsatlanta9491]

wjatube no only ifc certified but also take frequent recertifications

[@df-yq6tk]

From what I heard, it's an expensive certification to get and 99.9% of the time, pilots can get away without using it

[@brianhealey5286]

Flew with top pilot in a SAC refueling wing...when confronted with possible severe IMC conditions AC always hung a small nut tied to a string from the circuit breaker panel to a reference point near the throttle console area...seemed to be his back up ref point.

[@sludge4125]

Doesn’t work.

[@knarftrakiul3881]

What is so hard about just watching horizon indicator to keep level? I think I would just watch Horizon indicator and altimeter and speed until I flew out of the imc. Do people just panic??

[@practicalintuition4030]

@1: 40 seconds, i was feeling very jncomfortable and anxious witt that angle. **edit** the typos are because my anxiety and adrenaline was still going.

[@jeraldkonkel]

If you can't see outside the cockpit, then don't look outside the cockpit. Trust your gauges and fly by instruments.

[@WRXcellent]

I'm confused. I know nothing about planes besides simulator, but couldn't you keep an eye on the altitude and wing level to get through a cloud?

[@anonymousstormchaser]

No av experience here, but according to what I've read and seen it's very easy to become disoriented when only relying on instruments. It takes practice to understand what the airplane is doing without having a horizon or any frame of reference out the windows.

[@AmyAnnLand]

That's what IMC entails, but once in IMC, many VFR pilots panic and respond to what their body is telling them. It's sounds simple to follow your instruments, but it's a while different ballpark when you're in the thick of it.

[@nsleepwalker]

You can, but sometimes a cloud turns out to be very long, and then it feels like these is no way through. And also if it's low, you can't descent either, which puts you into uncertainty for long enough to start panicking.

[@spiro5327]

OK, lets say i fly into cloud as a VFR pilot. I keep my eyes on my instruments ALTITUDE, ATTITUDE, VSI, DG , and i absolutely ignore what my body is telling me and only trust my instruments. If i did this, would i still end up crashing the plane ?, and if the answer is yes, why would that be ? Great video, thank you.

[@GarryWing]

+silo granz Good question, but no, *if* you did a 60-second standard-rate turn and *if* you maintained altitude and *if* you maintained airspeed, you would _not_ crash; you would be out of the cloud. But, as Andy Griffith would say, _"that's a lot of if'in..."_ The reality is, without about 40-hours of simulated/actual instrument training, you're not going to be able to do that as a VFR pilot. If you were, we wouldn't have a couple VFR into IMC accidents every month, right? Flying using the instruments when you can still see the horizon (VFR) is _nothing_ like flying in real IMC. I've had Instrument students that have nearly freaked out the first time we go into actual IMC, even though they've done plenty of "hood" work prior to that.

[@spiro5327]

+Garry Wing OK Garry i understand, thank you.

[@ps2hacker]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jGrTp3qVj7ihecU

[@lawrencemiller3829]

As much as I don't want VFR pilots to fly into IMC, I did accidentally fly into clouds VFR with far less than 40 hours hood time. There was a patch on a trip of about 250 nm. I performed a standard rate turn for 180 degrees and got out, thankfully and luckily. During my initial private pilot training I had to work to look outside and not at the instruments. I did go on to get the instrument rating.

[@plane15man]

Garry Wing I just started my instrument training and I was able to maintain everything within PTS the whole lesson. No previous instrument experience except the 3 hours required for private. Only 58 hours total. If you trust your instruments and regularly scan them, you'll be just fine. Don't assume you'll be fine on any flight though. Things can and will get hairy fast.

[@Mike-01234]

Night VFR without over rural areas with no city lights can be just as bad as IMC.

[@MrUglyDuckly]

I am guessing that a bit of IFR training can go a long way in this situation, right?

[@GarryWing]

PiedPiper Not to be cruel or unkind, but ask JFK Jr. how that worked out. He was working on his IFR rating (not yet qualified), lost sight of the horizon & spiraled into the drink. *You need to be IFR rated, current and on an IFR flight plan before you enter a cloud*. Period.

[@MrUglyDuckly]

Garry Wing IFR training is definitely on my list, when learning to fly in Europe it seems kind of a must, at least get the newer CBIR/EIR rating we have here.... thanks for the great videos they are a great inspiration.

[@rickw6660]

A little bit of IFR raining is what JFK Jr had, and it wasn’t enough.

[@garygullikson6349]

Great video but for us RC hobbyists and others, , please spell out acronyms once where practical.

[@GarryWing]

+gary gullikson *google*, my friend.... google.

[@bermudaguy1]

So why not just look at your instruments when you cant see the horizon?

[@GarryWing]

Oh, if only it were that simple...

[@bermudaguy1]

Hey, great answer. Thanks!

[@zee_rowe]

@@bermudaguy1 imagine a car with gauges telling you speed, how much your wheel is turned, your car's angle in comparison to the road and try driving without looking out the window. I can imagine it's the same thing

[@carlhopkinson]

So, how hard is it to read the attitude indicator???

[@GarryWing]

+Carl Hopkinson Not hard at all in VMC; _very difficult_ in IMC:) BTW, you don't use the Attitude Indicator as a primary instrument to maintain Straight/Level flight in Instrument flying... Check out my *Attitude Instrument Flying* video for a quick intro of how this all works: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r36WYaBvZqiAgMU

[@kanyeeast7784]

This is what happened to jfk jr

[@PaulAnthonyDuttonUk]

I am very interested in this stuff but don't understand why people can not use the artificial horizon to back track or push through. Why is that an issue? Can't vfr pilots just switch to auto pilot either just to get to back to a visual horizon. I am missing something coz don't understand why flying into a cloud for a short period is so bad.

[@GarryWing]

Hopefully, you're just joking...? You need hours (30-40) of training to be able to properly read, interpret and correlate what the instruments are telling you. If it were as easy as you assume, there would be no need for an Instrument rating, much less VMC into IMC accidents every month. It's the unknown unknowns, as Donald Rumsfeld would say. You don't know what you don't know.

[@PaulAnthonyDuttonUk]

I am not joking... With all the tech we have now such as autopilot, level flight and artificial vision surely there is merit in some half way house rating before having to get a full instrument rating for sake of getting out of a cloud safely. I don't fly but if I did it would be visual only yet I would not want to have to do a full course and the yearly upkeep just so I can get out of cloud safely. I would just wana press a button and think we have this technical capability now. My car parks itself so see no reason why we can't consider tech to be mature enough to get us out f trouble in the air.

[@GarryWing]

Your car may park itself, but when you go zooming down the highway at 80 mph and pull back on the wheel, nothing happens right? An airplane is not like a Prius or a Roomba; it operates in three dimensions. And aside from your comparisons with a car, I don't need to worry about hitting some chucklehead in a cloud that shouldn't be there. This happened to me a couple months ago; I was cleared for an instrument approach (in a cloud, or IMC, as we call it), and some idiot was 2 miles ahead of me not talking to anyone, so ATC cancelled my approach out of an abundance of safety. Instrument rules are unlikely to change in the next couple decades, no matter how many technological advances occur. Even IFR-rated pilots know better than to fly into a cloud if you're not on an IFR clearance.

[@PaulAnthonyDuttonUk]

Garry Wing Then this is what is killing people. Convention. Not sure what the syllabus for ppl is but I would have hoped it would give instructions how to exit cloud rather than to just ignore it as a no no. It's like having a boat and being expected never to be caught in a storm. Vfr and IFR seem too far apart as you describe it. Needs a midway point because it would seem unacceptable to me if what you say is true that a visual pilot is in the hands of the Gods if they find them self in cloud.

[@choosetolivefree]

VFR into IMC is the top killer of pilots by far. There's obviously a reason for that, because it's much more difficult than it sounds to fly IMC. Youd think pilots would be required to have at least minimal IFR but its optional

[@kcnham292]

Not sure what happened to JFK Jr and this graveyard spiral.

[@karlbrundage7472]

As a former submariner, "flying" IFR is second nature, as that was the standard practice of navigating the boat. It really confounds me when I see and experience (via KZbin post-crash video) pilots failing to fly their aircraft after entering IMC. This really is a mindset. I cannot fathom how a pilot, upon losing visual references, doesn't get his head immediately into the cockpit and start using his instruments. I listened to an audio of a poor soul who took himself and his wife to oblivion after entering unexpected IMC. He clearly had no plan and couldn't even revert to simple concepts like "if you're not sure of your attitude, let go of the controls". He ended up wrenching the wings off the plane maneuvering toward God-knows what position he thought he should be in. If you haven't gone through every possible scenario in your head prior to takeoff.......... Don't takeoff................................

[@ps2hacker]

Although I am not a pilot, I think this can be easily explained by simply watching Bob Hoover perform his famous "Hoover maneuver", a simple 1G barrel roll done with amazing skill. Notice what he does: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jGrTp3qVj7ihecU If he can pour tea whilst rolling the airplane, it's not that hard to understand that an airplane can go completely inverted without anyone on the plane being able to feel any movement at all. It's not hard for a VFR pilot to get into big trouble in IMC conditions. JFK Jr died this way.

[@thierryvt]

i find this extremely odd, I'm a VFR pilot but I've never had issues with IMC. I specifically asked my instructor to do a couple hours of IMC training and I never came even close to losing control of the aircraft. All you have to do is ignore your senses. Really, fuck em, act as if your body wants you dead. Ignore whatever is going on outside, really, ignore it. Calmly scan your instruments every couple of seconds, keep a close eye on your AI. Small corrections where necessary. If you have to turn then make sure it's never steeper than a rate 1. It's really not that difficult.

[@GarryWing]

*Yikes*. We call this 'an accident waiting to happen'. You're delusional and dangerous to yourself, your passengers and people on the ground. You need *40+ hours* of Instrument training before you're even close to being ready to flying in IMC for real. Try to read Peter Garrison's _Aftermath_ column in the 9/16 issue of _Flying_ magazine. Then ditch the Macho attitude and get some real training if you want to fly in a cloud.

[@thierryvt]

Garry Wing i'm never going to go out flying if it's even close to IMC. I'm not that stupid and I don't have a deathwish, All I'm just saying is that I had some training (about 10 hrs all in all I'd say) shooting ILS approaches down to minimums, doing basic maneouvres (turns, climbs, descends) and navigating on nothing but VOR and ADF. In actual and simulated IMC conditions, both calm and turbulent weather. That obviously doesn't make me an IMC expert nor an IFR rated pilot and I know there's way more to it than that. I just didn't find it that hard to do.

[@fozzywxman]

The goal of a VFR pilot getting into IMC is to get back to VFR, not shoot approaches, and remember kiddies, MVFR ceilings are not VFR. Stay down.

[@donvito7616]

Glory to the Lord! Repent and pick up your cross.