TIPS

[@rjiggy07]

When I was an apprentice Diemaker in Detroit, I noticed the old guys had little bottles of blue crystals in their tool boxes. I ased what it was and they told me that before carbide scribers were cheap, we used copper sulfate to coat our details for layout because the lines showed up so well and we could layout hardend steel without the need for carbide scribers. jump ahead 40+ years, we use it to see if the chrome on our dies are wearing too thin. It will not stick to chrome, but it will to steel. I will leave a very slight coat of copper to a slightly loose dowel pin or die "button", making it fit better. Thank you for your video, everytime I use it I remember the old days that was shared to me during my apprenticeship.

[@DaveHojo]

The drinking glass bit was top notch. That earned a thumbs up for sure!

[@mrpete222]

Thanks

[@robertqueberg4612]

Another way to achieve the same results without the acid, is to mix the saturated copper sulfate solution, and “scrub” it across the part surface with a piece of emery cloth from a standard shop roll. It works very well, but the how and why were never revealed to me. The Dykem fluid needs more denatured alcohol to create a thinner coating, which drys faster, and flakes far less. Brown & Sharpe sold pre-blued flat stock, labeled as “smokeless flat stock”, as it did not give a toolmaker time to smoke a cigarette while he watched it dry.

[@nowayjerk8064]

please tell your wife thanks her playing along gave me a great chuckle. thanks for the video.

[@tomkaye5327]

It would be essential knowledge to use copper sulfate marking fluid is only applicable to ferrous allows. Will not work on aluminum. The chemical reaction is that the copper displaces the iron molecules, No wonky on aluminum. Tom

[@raypopowski2872]

Love it. Getting the Mrs. in the show. First towels now her glasses.

[@RedDogForge]

A refillable bingo marker is a great method for applying dykum. Thin yet complete coverage, quick drying. Little to no waste

[@jameshatfield7634]

Lyle:When you use Dykem ,use the brush to add a small area then use a tissue to spread it around. It'll dry in about 5 seconds.Just a tip I've used for 50 years

[@JunkMikesWorld]

About 20 years ago I spent part of the summer working in a tool and die shop. The layout man was using a copper layout fluid. I had never seen it before and I tried to get him to explain it to me. He was deliberately quite vague with me so I never realty learned what he was using until now. Thanks for showing me what that other SOB was too important to explain. Thanks and all the best! Mike

[@shanek6582]

I hated those old bas$&@ds that acted like that when I went through my apprenticeship. They were just afraid we'd replace them. When I became the old timer I gladly helped any young guy that asked.

[@bernieshort9774]

This takes me back some. As an apprentice @ H M Dockyard Devonport UK, we used copper Sulfate as a marking out fluid. As you said, it works extremely well providing the steel is clean and free from grease and oil. Even the oils from touching your workpiece with your fingers can affect the quality of the copper Sulfate finish. It is excellent stuff. Thank you for sharing.

[@jimpollock4061]

I have never tried this type of layout fluid but I have read that it is really good for laying out a tool that you are going to hand grind a profile on. If you use dykem the heat from grinding will make the dykem disappear when you get close to your layout. The copper sulfate dye is not affected by the heat nearly as much.

[@Impuritan1]

I may be wrong, but I think this solution is in one of The Machinist's Bedside Reader books to use in laying out shapes to be ground on high speed steel tool bits. The heat from the grinding won't burn it off while you grind to your layout lines.

[@davidtaylor6124]

Thanks for the very informative video. I'd read about using copper sulphate for layout but seeing the solution put together and used brings it all together much better than just reading about it and shows how simple it actually is. My chemistry set in the late 70s/early 80s had copper sulphate crystals in it so they can't be too toxic. It was magic seeing how quickly it coloured the steel!

[@mrpete222]

Thanks for watching

[@db427]

Very cool. As an engineering and manufacturing college instructor using the latest in high tech equipment and software, I always enjoy learning the history of how it was done. Please keep sharing your knowledge.

[@kevinwillis9126]

lol... love the part with you and the wife.... Thanks for sharing sir...

[@grntitan1]

You got the Mrs. in on the show. I liked that. The funny thing is, my wife has caught me with kitchen or household items in my shop over the years. I still catch heck over the time she caught me using the stainless steel strainer for sorting lead shot out of a tub of shotgun powder after I dumped the shot in the wrong tube on my shotshell reloader. Very interesting video. I enjoyed it and learned something to boot.

[@t.d.mich.7064]

Used to use this copper solution back in the 60s. The shop kept a 1 gal glass jar of sulphuric acid on the shelf above the 1 gal jar of cyanide pellets that were used for case hardening! Talk about dangerous! Who knew? Its amazing we weren't all gased to death! How things have changed for the better. Keep up the good work

[@mrpete222]

I don't think they have change for the better. I worked with a horribly dangerous chemicals on materials. And I thought everyone did, and I am now on the worse for the wear. LOL thank you

[@mwechtal]

This makes an electroless copper plating solution. It's hard to get a thick plating this way, but for this, that doesn't matter in the least. l'm sure most viewers won't try this, but I will. Always good to have options.

[@ClownWhisper]

I will definitely do this today I have all the chemicals for the old style with the nitric acid. I'm an amateur chemist emphasizing amateur LOL but I make all my own chemicals including copper sulfate + nitric acid. this is awesome thank you

[@mrpete222]

Thanks

[@ghrrum]

Copper sulfate and fairly high molar sulphuric acid can be found in plumbing departments of most hardware stores. Look around for root kill for the CuSO4 and drain opener for the H2SO4

[@stanwooddave9758]

Thanks so much for taking the time to shoot, edit, and upload this video. Will have to make some, and see if this won't act as a cheap protective coating against rust. If nothing else, another way to mark you tools.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

One use for this "marking fluid" that you did not mention, that is that it is really useful as a test for stainless steel, just drop a dab on your unknown metal, and if it turns copper colour, it is not stainless, far better than the magnet test a lot of people use as not all stainless steel is non magnetic, but it will not colour up with the Copper Sulfate test, we are lucky here in France as both Nitric and Sulphuric acid are available in most hardware stores in bottles.

[@edwardcook9957]

Thanks for showing us the old way. I would like to see how machinist made their own tools and measuring tools in the old days.

[@kb0zyh]

Great job Mr. Pete. I just love your sense of humor.

[@dougvanallen2212]

Mr Pete that was great thanks for sharing this with us . I wanted to let you know i made my wriggler today and used my tap follower that you taught me to make .i really enjoy your videos thanks so much.

[@harryhopkins7798]

I very much enjoyed learning how it was done before Dychem! Thank you Mr. Peterson.

[@mrpete222]

Yes

[@MrShobar]

Dykem used to be provided in metal cans (remember?). CuSO4 is a little before my time, though. Battery acid is about 30% to 40% H2SO4 by weight.

[@Volcker1929]

I love the cameo by Mrs. Tubalcain.

[@mrpete222]

Thanks for watching.

[@nilamotk]

"battery a I'd is very dilute, not sure how much but it's also good for removing warts" this is why I love these videos from all of you guys lol the little things you learn.. watching a video on layout and now I know sulphuric acid works on warts lol..

[@ghrrum]

Battery acid is usually about 30-35% H2SO4 and the remainder is H2O

[@mrpete222]

THANKS for watching

[@petergregory5286]

We used a copper sulphate mixture for marking out in my school workshops. When I went into industry we used a proprietary blue mixture but I always preferred the copper solution somehow. The point of Lyle's video, for me anyway is that I didn't realise that there was acid added to the mix. I'm now going to mix up a small batch in a jam jar. Won't risk the ire of my partner by using any of her good tumblers. Carry on regardless Lyle, hope your wife doesn't look at your videos.

[@jimcomer8780]

thanks for making this. I always find it interesting to see some of the old ways of doing things. if we don't record or use them we lose them. thanks again.

[@WobblycogsUk]

I've never heard copper sulphate called blue vitriol before but it makes sense. Sulphuric acid used to be called vitriolic acid (or oil of vitriol) and copper sulphate would be made by reacting copper with sulphuric acid.

[@RRINTHESHOP]

Great method, shows the scribe lines very well. Thanks for sharing.

[@poplarhouse]

Great tip. Thanks as always, mrpete. You can use hydrochloric acid instead of sulfuric, much less caustic to skin and available as muriatic acid in the home store. I used to make copper nails and paper clips with this when I was a kid, but never thought of it as a Dykem replacement- you saved me some cash.

[@jorgenbyde496]

Brilliant love the glass part

[@tek4]

this gives me ideas, and if I remember rightly copper sulfate can be found in some thing at home depot, drain cleaner has sulfuric acid and kno3 is in grants stump remover

[@OldIronShops]

I love the old methods. I have seen this in books but never tried it. maybe I will have to now.

[@Envieseus]

Mr. Pete, I love everything you share, I'm always learning a lot from you. God bless you and your family.

[@HughesEarthworks]

Really cool Mr. Peterson. I usually blast the Dykem with a shot of compressed air if I'm in a hurry and it will dry almost immediately.

[@gamingSlasher]

Very interesting. We used to use this at my work but it was only one guy doing and it was kinda secret. Probably because of the acid because chemical regulations are insane at companies.

[@ALSomthin]

I love the old books of forgotten things. I have one that is so rare and cool. It has formulas for turning any copper coating any color you can want. Some are probably quite toxic!

[@mrpete222]

Yes

[@springwoodcottage4248]

Fascinating! As I recall some of the older layout used Prussian blue which is an iron cyanide compound, now no longer available as far as I know for layout although perhaps still used by artists. This method, knew to me, is very attractive given the downsides of Dykem etc that you mentioned & it is also, if you have some copper sulphate (I do), much lower cost than Dykem etc. Thank you for sharing.

[@keithpattison6763]

Have used the Copper Sulphate method in the past. I liked the question from "Mrs. Pete" in the background. Is she starting to wake up to you and your methods of procuring containers?

[@BiddieTube]

Will that work as rest prevention on steel? Are there any recipes for steel blackener in that 48 machinery's book? I know blackener is easy to get, but would still want to know how to make. I dry dykem using compressed air. It still dries seemingly slow though. Thanks for interesting vid.

[@sgtrock68]

Mr Pete, could this be used as a forced patina? Or do we think it wouldn't inhibit rust at all and you'd just end up with a copper colored rusty item? Great video!

[@sjp52047]

When working on my Masters degree, I used many acids to color and finish My castings. I love your vids reminding me how ancient I am!!! Lol! regards, Solomon

[@nickeschenbrenner971]

ya right

[@Patroand]

Mr.Pete. Every time you show us some of your tricks, I try to test it. Very useful all the time, but now I don't have the copper sulfate nor the sulfuric acid. I do have a fungicide for the roses and plant by the name of BORDO™. The base is 53% of copper sulfate. I do have some nitric acid. I mixed it to ordinary water and add some Bordo™. And guess what. It gives the same result. Great. Thanks and stay away from the News and TV as you said to Abom79... At last, this recipe is not a fake.

[@phooesnax]

Never saw this before. Thanks Mr Pete!

[@matman7546]

This is an example of a single replacement reaction. The iron is far more reactive than the copper and thus displaces the copper in solution, causing it to precipitate and deposit onto the steel.

[@basildouglas855]

MATMAN hi there, thanks for your explanation on how the copper effect comes about on the piece of iron. I appreciate your comment. Kind regards.

[@matman7546]

Basil Douglas happy to be useful

[@CarlinComm]

Wow that's really neat, thanks for taking the time to show us!

[@tom7601]

Before the water district had aerial photos taken of our reservoirs, we took a rowboat and a mesh bag of copper sulphate "chunks" and drug it around the reservoirs. They showed up the prettiest blue in the photos. Copper sulphate in that dilution is not harmful to humans or animals and can be used to reduce alge bloom.

[@mrpete222]

Thanks for watching

[@daveharriman2756]

This is very interesting, I'd forgotten all about this stuff, we used it in the training school when I was an apprentice, can't remember any safety warnings though!

[@mcnultyfp]

great tip. layout fluid is next on my list, right after I get rid of the wart.

[@danermer2955]

A voice appearance from Mrs. Pete! How long does it take the solution to dry compared to layout fluid?

[@DesignedinAustralia0]

Great method Mr. Pete. Thanks for sharing. I have one method uploaded method (using white spirits+shellac+sharpie) as well.

[@JeffLMisc]

Did your wife find her glasses? :) Great trick with the copper sulfate!

[@voxveritates2498]

I have used a very light spray of mat-white paint. Virtually instantly dry and shows up real well -especially on hot-rolled. And scribing (scratching) that hard on the steel with the copper-coating, would show up almost as well as on the bare steel..

[@chrisleech1565]

Works very nicely on lead for a nice effect on stained glass or leaded glass work. Maybe tin .

[@SvenIronhand]

This is fantastic. Layout fluid is not easy to come by where I live and costs $70(US) per litre.

[@edl5074]

Learn something new every day great video !!

[@mrpete222]

Glad to hear it!

[@verdatum]

Wow. First I've heard about CuSO4 being used for layout. Thanks for this one!

[@c185pilot3]

Johnny was a chemist. Johnny is no more. For what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.

[@mrpete222]

LOL

[@EleetCanoe]

for some reason i sung this to the tune of i wanna be sedated

[@thisnicklldo]

Very interesting, thank you. When she doesn't find them on the patio, tell her your grandson took them - a bit of injustice is a valuable learning experience - anyway better he gets in trouble than you.

[@bendavanza]

That could be used as a decorative finish on steel. Very cool thanks for sharing!

[@MarkWarbington]

In the early 1980s, our metal shop teacher had us make our own layout dye by soaking carbon paper in alcohol. I seem to remember that it worked ok, but carbon paper is pretty obscure stuff these days.

[@sdunca4864]

Mr Pete! Great video- copper sulphate is available at your local big box DIY store under the name of Root kill... ROTO brand drain openers are sulphuric acid and found in the same place! Not a safety nazi- but if you dispose of it in wastewater systems that go to a watershed or waterway this stuff is extremely toxic to fish and all aquatic life! Dispose of it by pouring it over steel wool till no more copper plates out and then neutralize w baking soda. Dispose of steel wool with solid waste (or recycle) and the liquids with your waste oil/paint/chemical wastes. Also a good way of applying a copper layer to things you are going to weld where you dont need spatter sticking- or need to preserve an edge (weld spatter wont usually stick to copper)

[@duminicad]

If you can drop accuracy by a small amount for convenience, you can put masking tape on your work piece and using a thin mechanical pencil, draw your layout. Depending on your masking tape, you can use a utility knife to draw the layout, this gives you similar or better accuracy compared to using a fluid.

[@rjiggy07]

the tape won't hold up very well to the teeth of a band saw blade or a cutter on a mill or a grinding wheel. Maybe a table saw or a chop saw... but not in the world of metal working.

[@allannoyes4560]

Glad to here Mrs. Petersen included in your video. Hope that she found those missing drinking glasses.

[@juanzuluaga3388]

Very nice tip, thank you Mr. Pete.

[@panaviaman]

This is cool,i was going to order some blueing and saw this,it will be copper from now on .

[@mrpete222]

Thanks for watching

[@dav1dh0ff]

Thanks for making these. I always learn something from you.

[@kerrywil1]

another great video.

[@jacksonvillereclaimedwood6709]

Great video! I will make some of that stuff up for my shop

[@mrpete222]

Yes

[@juanzuluaga3388]

¿Would this result in a germicidal coating?

[@mjmcomputers]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[@richardlove4287]

Well done brother Pete.

[@andrewsommers8298]

very cool learned something new. thank you.

[@jamesrobinson7108]

she going to catch you one day

[@mrpete222]

Never

[@jschlesinger2]

Glasses on the patio in Central Illinois in mid-March? It's been a lighter winter in Illinois, but it's not quite patio weather yet!

[@tonypike5785]

J Schlesinger u

[@John_Ridley]

I dunno, I was in Chicago mid February, we were out on the balcony at the hotel and we went in after a while thinking we might get sunburned. It was about 75*F.

[@AraCarrano]

Thank you for sharing your technical knowledge.

[@Askjerry]

Very interesting. I'm thinking that in a finished product it could be dipped to impart a copper look to the material, then a light coat of clear finish. I'll have to experiment with it. Possibly if I etch or stamp text into a project... coat with this... then use steel wool... the result would be steel with copper letters. (In theory.)

[@combatmedic1980]

Lyle, what ever happened to the simple sharpie, that I see Keith Fenner and Keith Rucker and Abom use?

[@mrpete222]

Everyone already knows that method.

[@assimilat]

Well I learned something today. Do you think that the copper sulfate finish would be adequate for wetting solder?

[@1musicsearcher]

That's worth a try!

[@ghrrum]

I've actually done that, gotta be quick and careful as it likes to oxidize pretty quickly.

[@longcaster]

Mr Pete, have you measured how thick the layer of copper you make on the steel is? Have you tried to see how thick the coating you get off the steel when you clean it with alcohol (the black stuff you wipe off)?

[@ghrrum]

I'm not Mr. Pete, but I have used this method for copper strike when doing some electroplating at home. The copper layer is VERY thin, maybe a few atoms thick. This whole process is dependent on the difference in electronegativity between Fe and Cu being so different. Once the solution can't access any Fe molecules to latch onto, the reaction stops.

[@g00167015]

I really hope your better half found those drinking glasses......wherever they could have disappeared to! 😂😂 Copper sulphate should be available in almost any pharmacy or also agri supply stores. Often used in solution for hoof ailments in livestock 👍

[@RonaldLAbbey]

That made me laugh telling her to look outside for glasses she left outside!!!! I know it had to be staged, I'm sure Mrs Pete would have caught you long ago, & no way you'd still be alive. That stuff made a pretty color, to bad it's not usable as a protective finish. I remember once hearing old timers say they used aluminum paint as layout dye because they were out of everything else. I'm sure that would been hard to see outside in the bright sunlight.

[@billbussler3332]

I hate to break it to you Mr. Pete but Hienz still makes baby food.

[@ianbertenshaw4350]

We used to use it to indicate if we had ground through a hard chrome surface

[@nedshead5906]

*poured you a glass of blue kool aid dear

[@willemkossen]

Just for a giggle, i mean education and completeness, could you try that whiting method too?

[@gregorywest2029]

What is the shelf live of dykem? I had some, the dy seperated from the liquid and would not remix. Thanks for the video, Greg

[@RookieLock]

really glad i came across this, I cant find Dykem anywhere in my lil town :/ Thanks for sharing, keep up the great work!

[@Keith_Ward]

I doubt any town has it unless you have an industrial supply house like Grainger, it's not something you'll be likely to find at any home and garden store. Online/mail order is your best choice like Amazon, McMaster, Enco/MSC, etc.

[@RookieLock]

You mean Dykem? Or the actual ingredients to make the copper sulfate layout fluid ?

[@RookieLock]

Either way, I try to find stuff locally when I can, but in this case I should probably go ahead and just order some dykem

[@markmossinghoff8185]

Rookie Lock why not just use a fat Sharpie? It dries fast and is easily removed with alcohol.

[@RookieLock]

yeah, good idea, thats probably what i'll end up doing, i do see quite a bit of people doing that so ill give that a shot.

[@jwills8606]

re: safety. Don't worry about the minimal amount of sulfuric acid. The copper sulfate is poisonous, though - about 10 gms can be fatal. I could see some kid thinking the mix was blue Kool-Aid or somesuch. Maybe keep it in something translucent or opaque.

[@johnpilagonia5238]

Can you use the same solution for copper plating? Adding electric of course.

[@pyromedichd1]

Since two different acids are prescribed to make this solution I wonder if Acetic Acid, white vinegar) could be used.

[@manuelalmodova3137]

also if you spray baking soda and water it will stop the chemical reaction and if add muriatic acid you will get a verdigris patina. also different heats will give you different results.

[@randybradshaw7060]

Two videos in one. One about making a markup fluid, another about how to handle wife questions like a pro!!!

[@eddiesasquatch8124]

Drain cleaner is not acidic, it is basic. Potassium hydroxide, lye, and others are solutions you will find for drain cleaners in a big box store. I saw a few days ago looking for how to treat wood structures against mold/ fungal where vinegar could be used with baking soda to create heat and carbon dioxide to open a drain. Battery acid can be bought on line as such but use to be available to resupply the batteries we use to have

[@lexboegen]

I wonder if the thin layer of copper plating would help to reduce rust if you left it on the steel.

[@OldIronShops]

Lex Boegen I wonder. that may be hsndy

[@davidv6501]

Might want to try citric acid from her canning supplies for the etching.

[@2point2]

how picky does one need to be at removing the copper before priming\painting?

[@literoadie3502]

I love this, thank you! Now you don't need your passport to buy copper sulphate from the hardware store do you?

[@byrnejr]

Nice video. Thank you Mr Pete