Home Built Boats. Ply on Frame or Stitch and Glue?

[@fabiodeponte3823]

After watching several of your videos I'm sorry we can't go to a local pub and share a beer! Really enjoy your work and words.

[@thud9797]

Agree! I've watched dozens in the last month!

[@kevinloy440]

Stitch and glue all day! Photos like those at 14:08 make me want to pull the trigger on the californian plans i bought from you!

[@nterry894100]

Hi Jeff, I am learning a lot from your informative videos. Thank you. I am still working on catamaran plans and am now building a 1:10 scale model. I will write to you soon to get input on the actual boat before I get too much further down the track. What I intend to do is to do is wood and epoxy composite which is close to stitch and glue, but not using plywood. I will use narrow staves of solid wood because I want compound curves and because I have this wood on hand. I intend to use three layers of these staves in different orientations with interlayers of glass and epoxy and then inner and outer skins of e-glass (or s-glass if I can find it) and epoxy. My idea is to create a monocoque hull with strong bulkheads in the right places. The size is about 66' by about 30' and so it is bigger than what you have designed to date. I hope you are interested. Will write soon.

[@theJonnymac]

Thanks for the indepth video on your thoughts and why you design the way you do.

[@dennisharrington6055]

Thanks. Just finishing up a 9’ s&g pram (other designer). Meant to learn the technique with it. It’s not my always gonna build world class cruiser. I’m not crazy for the technique, but I’ve convinced myself I can do it. I think I still favor ply on frame. One of a few reasons: s&g, you gotta hit the call outs - or else. Pof, I think is a bit more forgiving, plus, you can alter a bit if you want, e.g. per Witt 10% on length. Happy New Year

[@dion6146]

I've built a rich and glue for a rowing wherry. I've seen the framed wood boats built and have studied West Systems cold molding construction. I think the frame with plywood makes the most sense overall as most people could build a reasonable boat without need of specialized skills.

[@JohnSmith-nx7rx]

Great video. Useful advice.

[@tomkearns6830]

Thanks for your description of Ply N Frame(PNF vs Stich & Glue(S&G). Years ago I assembled a drift boat kit in which the frames etc., were pre-built. I then sheeted the boat with ply. Never tried S&G but watching videos it seems straight forward and simple from the wood working POV. I intend to build a pram for fly fishing; either an 8' or 10'. My focus will be to keep the boat as light as possible. Adding fiberglass tape & even glass the entire hull (as recommended by another design/builder) seems to add too much weight.

[@FerreraGlen]

Building the San Diegan right now with a few modifications. It's on hold because of the cold temps, I can't glass it. That will have to wait until the spring.

[@tjkid07]

Great. Looking forward to seeing pictures of your launch and construction when you get farther along.

[@kevinloy440]

I will be following anything you post! I have bought the californian plans and am EXTREMELY interested since i haven't seen many photos of the larger models, only the newporter. Photos help convince me to pull the trigger. mostly need to find good epoxy for a reasonable price in hawaii.

[@greggsenne1268]

Very encouraging words. I'm in the process of designing a 15' gaff sloop for sailing the San Francisco bay. Center or dagger board. Stitch and glue still sounds good so far. Still puzzling over some construction details like ribs, the trunk, bowsprit, etc. There are so many good ideas it's hard to pick one! Any comments would be appreciated.

[@pakde8002]

If I was still living in North Carolina it would be a no brainier, definitely ply on frame because it's not a big deal to move a boat weighing up to a ton from my home to the water, but as an expat in Bali there are no boat ramps, boat trailers or trucks big enough to haul a boat if the other two were available. Beach launching could be a thing like in Oregon and New Zealand but there again you still need a boat trailer and big truck. There are literally thousands of the traditional Balinese jukung that are just driven up onto the beach then a number of men get their shoulders under the yoke shaped outriggers and walk the boat to the top of the beach. However, while possible they aren't made for comfortable modern style fishing with rod and reel. Okay I know this is a rare dilemma that spira boats probably can't solve but I love the designs both stitch and glue and frame styles and have learned a lot about boat building through the study plans and other free materials available on the website. So, not a total bust and who knows maybe I'll be able to design my way out of the situation here thanks to you. Cheers from Bali 🌞🌊

[@mattevans-koch9353]

So far my experience has been with ply on frame except I have participated in demonstrations of stitch and glue at several boat festivals. Overall I would still go with the ply on frame because the building experience is as important as using the finished boat and being an amateur wood worker my major epoxy experience has been on the few boats I have built. Cost wise in estimating the wood cost for the 19' Alaskan Grand Banks Dory wood materials using big box plywood and lumber is around $600 (hull and planned interior) and the epoxy is about $600. If the same design were stitch and glue the only real savings would be in time as marine ply would more than equal the wood material cost and the epoxy cost would be slightly higher if you decided to glass the inside of the boat. That is my limited experience so far. I'll let you know after I start the 19' Alaskan in February if my thinking has changed. Thank you Jeff for the discussion and as always take care, stay safe and have a great upcoming New Year.

[@tjkid07]

That's what I have always figured. People enjoy working on the boat project and showing it off, as much as using it. If you want to get on the water as fast as possible, buy a cheap used boat, fix it up, and head out.

[@steved2841]

Hi, at about 13:00 you mentioned that the ply on frame boat doesn't need to be glassed on the inside, but the instructions show the inside being epoxied. Can you please explain? Thanks.

[@tjkid07]

Well, yes the manual states that, but it is a dozen years or more old. I live in a desert and boats dry out quickly here, unfortunately some very expert builders from the gulf coast where it is always humid, have been telling me not to, so I have changed my ways. I explain more about it in this blog post and it will be the topic of an upcoming video. spirainternational.com/tipsandtricks/2020/200601_finishing_the_insides.html

[@steved2841]

@@tjkid07 Thanks Jeff...I'm in San Diego, probably considered a desert too. So your advise would be to not fiberglass the inside?

[@TheBeaker59]

I have built a stitch and tape Pram dinghy and one of your Champlain ply on frame dinghy's soon to be launched as a sailing dinghy for my grandchildren basically I doubt there's any difference in strength and durability there is allot more complexity in the framed boat which slows down the process (some of the fun is the process of course so not all bad). certainly the stitch and tape dinghy is amazing I dropped it 6ft onto a concrete deck (it got away from me in the wind) without any structural damage. The pram is a tender to my big boat so gets allot of work and has stood up well in 5 yrs the new boat has yet to prove itself. Next, yes I just bought someone elses plan sorry, a stitch and tape skiff the Tango 15 not 100 % sure I will build it yet but strongly considering it basically for the ease of constructing a stitch and tape and the ease of painting a boat without frames (OK so I put a bit of effort into finish).

[@bevinmodrak4997]

So far only done a couple very small stitch and glue builds. I enjoyed them but yeah the panic that sets in once you've mixed the epoxy and using it up before it goes off I could do without. Plus, epoxy has gotten expensive! High quality marine grade ply isn't readily available in the mountain west. I'd be very interested in a ply on frame for 4 to 6 people and a modest sized engine. I'll check out your plans. Thanks for the vids!

[@nattyphysicist]

Stitch and glue is so prevalent that it's hard to find even videos about ply on frame. I built the Mini Cup ply on frame. Much lighter frame than what you show here. It was so simple to build, no fiberglass at all. It's kind of lost knowledge. I appreciate your experience, thanks for sharing.

[@seanchiles621]

Would love to make a boat ply on fram that could get me out to the local socal islands.

[@tjkid07]

I'm very familiar with the Channel islands. Many of my boat designs go there. Have a look at this guy's site who has spent over 700 nights at the Islands and Outer Banks, in a 19' Flat Bottomed skiff: lovesthesea.com/ I have spent a lot of time fishing out there myself: socaloceanfishing.com/ mostly on a 23 footer.

[@markgillespie6440]

Great Video Jeff....I find listening to your descriptions very educational. I did decide to build your Tillamook plan. Bought the plans already and am cutting my 2x4 's from very clear Loblolly pine I harvested on my ranch 7 years ago. It is air dried and a little heavier than store bought. Do you see any issues with using air dried wood? Thanks

[@tjkid07]

None whatsoever. Loblolly pine is a fine boat building choice.

[@kevinhornbuckle]

Please consider making a video series of your build.

[@PeterJames143]

Hi, thank you, I like your description of why you like ply on frame boats. I would like ideally to learn both methods but I would like to learn ply on frame first. I looked through your list of boats and I am interested in purchasing plans but I have a few requests. Could you please make a ground effect boat, a laser-style ply on frame boat, and a catamaran. I know you have one large 55' boat but could you make a wind powered one. Thanks for your great work. :)

[@preciousplasticph]

can you use a brad nail gun for stitch and glue?

[@Redfishdaddy]

Do you have a boat for the Texas Flats? What do recommend?

[@tjkid07]

Many of them. How about the Sabine: spirainternational.com/hp_sabi.php

[@bipedalhominid6815]

Currently building a ply on frame "flats cat" skiff. 16 foot long. 6 foot wide. Do you have any experience in pontoons/catamarans? I'd like to pick to pick your brain.. I already have the 2 cat hulls built. I am not planning on connecting them together with crossbeams.. instead I will epoxy them down onto the 3/4" thick plywood deck and then glass them down to the plywood deck, and then fiberglass the bottom in its entirety. Do you think I will have any issues doing this without cross beams? The individual hulls are 2 ft wide, so I will have a 2 ft tunnel space in between them. The hulls beams are 1"x4" beams and occur every 2 feet from bow to stern of the hulls... so those beams are what I'm going to use as where I epoxy the hulls to the deck. Please let me know if my idea is crazy.

[@percussion44]

I'm still learning, and certainly not here to argue the merits of these designs. I would think in the marine environment, even a ply on frame boat should be glassed inside and out. If the wood is sealed against oxygen and moisture it should last a long time. I would guess this becomes more true if a person builds with more affordable material like fir ply and spruce from home depot rather than Okume and mahogany that the old classic wood boats specify in their plans. Indeed, I have been looking for info on what the options are to build from "normal" vs "exotic" materials. I've wondered about vinyl ester resin and putty vs epoxy resin/putty as well. Vinyl Ester is 20% less expensive than Epoxy, still very strong and chemical resistant. I have built a wood boat, in the form of a 14' strip canoe. I couldn't afford cedar so I used spruce. It is glassed inside and out in biaxial cloth and polyester resin. I knew nothing and could afford less 25 years ago when I built her. She still floats today.

[@antoniobird6053]

Hi..I live in the Caribbean..want recommendation in the 18 footer range to go fishing offshore?

[@tjkid07]

Which of my boats is good for fishing?kzbin.info/www/bejne/amTUf3qqptKZoqs

[@tadhuckabee3953]

Injoyed the video's. My desire is to build a car top boat for one person. I'd like to avoid fiberglass and stich and glue If possible. It needs to be light enough for one person to handle. Ant suggestions?

[@tjkid07]

I have a dozen suggestions. Want a rowboat, power boat, or sailboat? Where do you plan to use it, rivers? lakes? open bays? bayous? A boat to do what? Float in the water? fish? cruise? Go fast? slow? relax? exercise? Stand and cast?

[@tadhuckabee3953]

@@tjkid07 small foshing lakes in the ocala National forest. Something stable. I'm not worried about speed.

[@112462112]

I was thinking stitch and glue, but now I’m not sure. My skills are adequate either way. I want to build a boat for crabbing and bottom fishing off the Oregon coast. Approximately 20’ in length. Light enough to trailer easily. Seaworthy and sturdy. Center console. Any suggestions?

[@pakde8002]

By now you're probably aware that Jeff passed away and the last time I checked the website with the plans and building information is no longer available. But you can still see his videos on KZbin. I'd probably look at his Pacific power Dory. Believe they were 18 and 21 feet as memory serves.

[@davescheer5038]

So I’m thinking about doing a 14’ or 16’ flats boat , I’ll be designing it from start to finish, I built fiberglass boats for 32 yrs out of molds but never built a boat out of plywood, I want it to be light yet strong how thin of plywood can I go ? The another thing is , and I guess I have to check with the the county to find out how you register a homemade boat so you can put a motor on it in the state of Florida , 🤔

[@tjkid07]

My suggestion is to build a boat from available plans where the designer has calculated the strength for his particular design. I have plenty of flats boats and others here: spirainternational.com/hp_wood_boats.html

[@theJonnymac]

with using construction wood being dried to 15-19%, what are your thoughts on it as it dry's further and any warping that might occur as it dries. I would have to buy larger pieces and rip them down to size as I can't get a straight construction board to begin with around me, but that's just part of wood working in my opinion.

[@tjkid07]

Build them as-is. They won't warp if you put everything together my way. They'll dry straight.

[@Os-em5xtmmnnnnnnnnn]

Hi Jeff, thanks for your very informative videos, I have one question, would you use/recommend 'cascamite' glue? I know it's perhaps considered "old fashioned", and maybe tedious to mix, but if that isn't minded, would you recommend it on your builds?

[@bipedalhominid6815]

Epoxy

[@danshuey9738]

Hi Mr. Spira would like to build a 20 foot Dory can you give me the cost for the plans. Thanks Dan SHuey

[@tjkid07]

Sure, pick out one of my designs from this page and you can purchase the plans from there. The prices are all included: spirainternational.com/hp_wood_boats.html

[@johngallagher912]

Just wondered which 2D CAD program you use. It seems as though most of them are no longer available and they are pushing the 3D programs.

[@tjkid07]

I use Draftsight. It used to be a free clone of Autocad 2D, but now they charge for it, though it's inexpensive. It's put out by by Dissault Systemes in France who are the SolidWorks people. I learned 3D Catia and Solidworks, and used to use them for Engineering work but still keep using the 2D methods for boats that I've been drafting with since Jr. High on paper, and most of my career on paper and with Autocad since 1983. Getting pretty old to change now.

[@johngallagher912]

@@tjkid07 I used to use Draftsight when it was free. I use it about twice a year or even less often, so it didn't make sense to pay for it now. Will keep looking for a free one.

[@officialWWM]

How strong is a ply over frame boat? Can they crash through the waves like a glass or aluminium boat can?

[@tjkid07]

Absolutely.

[@officialWWM]

Spira Boats interesting. Thanks.

[@tjkid07]

So you know, boats don't fall apart because they hit waves, what kills them is running aground, and glass, aluminum or even steel won't hold up running into rocks at full tilt.

[@officialWWM]

Spira Boats thanks for the information. I have been restoring a 1970 Hartley Vixen over the winter. She's a beautiful old boat, I just have no experience with wooden boats or how strong they are, I've always had glass or aluminium boats.

[@morrislevy6994]

titebond 3glue is it ok for wood boats. thank you

[@tjkid07]

Sure.

[@DavidWischnewski]

Great information. I would like to build a boat that I can take on lake of the Woods and not need a large engine. Most of the boats on the lake are 18' to 26'. I think that no more than 3 people fishing. I would love to hear your recommendations.

[@tjkid07]

The 18' Carolinian will get up on a plane with three people aboard and 10 hp. spirainternational.com/hp_caro.php Look at Storm Lefalar's video on that page. The Caladesi is another that should work fine. Heavily loaded and 20 horses, it'll handle that water with 3-4 aboard fine with a 25 horse: spirainternational.com/hp_cala.php

[@richarddegen6184]

plank on frame for me...building a Nola 14 now...#5 I've built since 1981

[@bubbamoran2964]

I wish I could buy your plans

[@bobweglin9644]

I would like to see a stitch together plywood version of the Tesla Cyber Truck that could be mounted on a used vehicle's chassis.

[@fredrikbergquist5734]

Stitch and glue is probably a consequence of 3D software becoming more accessible at a lower cost like Fusion360. This technique reguires a precision shape of the plywood and today with CNC mills it is an easy path from the design to building. But I understand your affinity for frame boats, even in 3D you use frames to create the shape so why not build the boat that way also?

[@larryfromwisconsin9970]

RIP Jeff. I went to the website link and it goes to Spam. I investigated and learned that Jeff passed away and his heirs decided to not continue his business. Sadly his boat plans are no longer available. Damn! I was ready to order a Carolina Dory plan. If anyone has those plans on PDF they would share I would appreciate it. It wouldn't violate any Copyright because they are no longer available for sale.

[@timgrede6845]

Stitch and glue with CNC routers cutting the plywood they are more accurate and faster to build. I live in a town of 25,000 people and we have at least 3 shops that will cut the plywood for not much money. With CNC output you can make a more complicated design that can be faster to build and less expensive also. I think that that is the future of small to medium boat design is in the CNC cut files plans/directions. I also am seeing no wood designs cumming on the market using foam instead of plywood. Foam is even less expensive (now that wood is getting so expensive) to have CNC routered as it can be cut and shaped so fast with little man/machine hours.

[@kevinloy440]

Agree except for the foam part. I would still pick with plywood composite as it has lighter weight and higher fatigue rate.

[@timgrede6845]

@@kevinloy440 There are new stronger composite materials cumming on the market and companies offering new types. I think that 5 or 10 years will be very different and stranger composites like honeycomb core foam impregnated material showing up on the market. Just look at the explosion in resin technology in the last 3 years. And the drop in the price of carbon fiber vs fiberglass cloth. I think the wood shortage will push much of the advancements. These things are just now cumming into the price and capabilities of the DIY"er. I am also seeing a resurgence of concrete boat building designs with new stronger concretes like aircreat, fiberglass strand, and many others along with honeycomb core sheets in mid to larger boats. Honeycomb core sheets are simpler to form and hold a form better and stronger than the concrete reinforcement of the last 40 years. I only see the composite foam competing with the smaller wood boats like that are here but with the advancements in concrete could be the next thin like the 1960's and 70's. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeycomb_structure

[@tjkid07]

Back in the 1970s, 50 years ago, they said stitch and glue was the future of home boatbuilding too. Didn't sell many plans back then either, and still don't, so maybe it'll happen, but maybe in another 50 years, homebuilt wood boats will still be the choice of home boatbuilders.

[@timgrede6845]

@@tjkid07 I think that working with wood is special. When I look at all the different boat plans that are out there from the wood boats with absolutely complicated joinery to the CNC cut and past boats and 3 days and you are on the water. But some things that I am seeing is this generation growing up with 3Dprinters and people like me with a hobby CNC router/plasma cutter. With CNC building metal boats have changed and the quality of builds is getting better. And stitch and glue have so many limitations in the size and so on, you are correct. A while back I got to go sailing on a 40' ferro-cement cargo sailer built from1969-1972 to supply homesteads in Alaska.

[@philipripper1522]

those are NOT safety glasses all by themselves just because they are polycarb. Safety glasses require full protection -- the sides and tops of the glasses as well.

[@j.o.t.u.n.n]

I don't know what I want

[@String.]

Nothing compares to the Pygmy Boat. Too bad the owner retired and didn't sell the business to someone responsible.