To grain, or not to grain?

Dear Ghosts,
Curses! After seeing the upload, i got trolled by yt compression. I knew i would have banding in the skies, but not THIS much. Hilariously, it's still not nearly as bad as trying to use grain to dither the skies, if you don't believe me here's a test with grain: • test2 added grain I'll upload a HQ version anyway.
Wish I had a few more shots at f2.8 but I did want to give more examples of dof. Spent a whole day making music just to turn it into elevator music. if you wanna hear more check it out on the other channel or download in the discord.
Soundtracks:
• Clever Ghost Music: I'...
/ discord
Love,
CleverG
LUTs and music licenses: cleverghost.net/
Support me: / cleverghost
Instagram - / markoyanli
Chili - / cleverghostchili
Business inquiries - [e-mail]
Discord community - / discord
Gear:
All opinions expressed here are my own. I may earn a small commision at no extra cost to you should you decide to purchase something through these links, which greatly assists me in creating more quality content.
Bmcc6kFF: amzn.to/3w4Ia7X
Sigma FP: amzn.to/45CEgPH
Sigma grip: amzn.to/404vSHr
Macro camera: amzn.to/46E362T
Main lens: Zeiss Otus 28mm f1.4 EF
Secondary lens: Zeiss Otus 55mm f1.4 EF
Favorite Fuji lens: amzn.to/3S5my48
Drone: amzn.to/46Ij3oC
CFexpress B Card: amzn.to/3tJDKly
Samsung T7: amzn.to/3rZKFGT
EF - L adapter: amzn.to/409Wuqk
EF - X speedbooster: amzn.to/3Q8gOUL

[@kl00ver]

Just found your channel! Blown away, these videos are absoloute gems!!

[@cleverghostchili]

Glad you are enjoying the content

[@RAKKProductions]

People don't really know how to properly apply grain, or have even studied how grain reacts to different levels in the scene. You see an insane amount of tubers throw on grain, halation, and bloom and think that's how film looks. It's like they've never seen a movie before.

[@cleverghostchili]

I personally can’t stand most of the halation and bloom I see. I will say filmbox has pretty nice grain, dehancer pretty good too. Same with capture one silver grain

[@jesse5905]

We need that in depth tutorial from you brother! Your results are almost indistinguishable from film to me.

[@richieduque]

I love this take, it captures and articulates so many of my own thoughts on cinematography so beautifully. I always felt similar about everyone chasing lens flares, it might make sense for a quick edit, but on a narrative film the cleaner and more pure the image the better the focus on the story, character, environment etc. In recent years I've started to slightly stray from my original taste and this was a beautiful reminder of standing by my original thoughts on clarity. Funny my main two lenses for long time were Zeiss 28 f2 ZE and 50 f1.4 ZE and I wanted to switch them out for the Otus' for a long time and never got around to it. Watching your videos are such great reminders to me of what I love in an image, keep creating!

[@cleverghostchili]

Zeiss makes such great lenses! Contax 28 is one of the most praised lenses, the 25mm distagon also has some cool saturation, always a time and place for everything though I definitely prefer clarity so I’ve opted for modern Zeiss. The Otus actually has some very impressionist rendering at f1.4, I would argue it it’s not just a clean lens at certain f stops

[@HHKFilms1]

I think grain can be misunderstood these days because so many people get it wrong. The thing that most people forget is that grain is not just some overlay when shooting on film- it quite literally makes up the image. These days film stocks are very low in grain to begin with and for many many years cinematographers and directors alike actually tried to get lower amounts of grain in their films Alternatively look at cinematographers like Harris Savides or Darius Khondji Who successfully use grain as part of the visual language of the film that they shoot As for people that try to achieve the look of realistic grain on digital, most do it as an overlay and it looks distracting and synthetic It’s important to understand how one is applying grain just as much as the amount of grain, shape, level of saturation it holds etc. Edit: it’s also important to note that because the image would in theory be made up by the grain (on celluloid)- one has to match the smallest discernible level of detail in the frame with the smallest particle of grain

[@RAKKProductions]

This.

[@cleverghostchili]

Great contribution! I put the grain early in the node tree to better emulate what it would look like rather than an overlay, though I’m still not proficient at it, I admit I added it bit barbarically for demonstrative effect. If you really wanted to emulate film grain, there is actually quite a bit of color noise too, though I personally prefer less chroma grain.

[@Thaddeuspryor]

You don't miss..... keep hitting home runs. Thanks for sharing

[@edwardcrockett]

Man you might have won me over! I may have to set aside the film emulation and clean things up a bit! Solid video man!

[@cleverghostchili]

That’s wild! And here I thought I was a ghost in the wind

[@alirehman6080]

Your style is very refreshing

[@cleverghostchili]

I didn’t realize I’ve developed a style!

[@johnbrowningdp]

I would argue that using a small amount of grain when uploading to KZbin is actually better practice than none at all. This form of dithering helps reduce banding in areas of gradient, such as the sky. There are a lot of the shots in this video where the banding in the sky is quite noticeable. Unfortunately, this is just due to the compression KZbin applies when re-encoding your videos.

[@cleverghostchili]

See the video description, I’ve done dozens of tests to try dithering, usually makes things worse. I’ve even tried dnxhr 444 12bit one of the ultimate codecs kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6GknamFhrlprMU I’ve been trying to fight KZbin compression forever, I’ve covered this in another video, the only way to succeed is to upload an HDR video which has less of a compression bottleneck, unfortunately I don’t have the resources or workflow to support it as of yet

[@developingtank]

Came here to say the exact same thing. Cheers.

[@asfande]

This is a great video, and on right on the topic of something I have also been thinking about. I think as all film makers, we want to make things look 'cinematic' - but what I am finding is that a lot of people on KZbin think 'Cinematic' is using vintage lenses or dialling up strong effects like halation, bloom or grain. (Unfortunately, I myself also fall in the bucket of these types of film makers. But we shall learn and improve). Where as the shots in your video right here show that actually a shot looks 'cinematic' because of its composition, movement, lighting choices (natural or otherwise). Using this video as inspiration, I will do my next 'short film' without grain.

[@cleverghostchili]

That’s how I feel, if you can’t make it look beautiful without effects, then you may be down the wrong path

[@watzmaaname]

Agreed!

[@dajikeyboards]

Love this! Shots look so clean. Great work!

[@cleverghostchili]

Almost deleted this project!

[@dajikeyboards]

@@cleverghostchili hope you’re glad you didn’t. I am.

[@prismcollectionmusic]

Use grain mostly in the midtones, then you won't have to worry about reduced contrast. Also "against the grain" love it

[@neurojitsu]

I really like this video, and hopefully this is the start of a series of themes exploring the subjectivity of images... it's far more interesting than the same old technical or camera based content most channels focus on. I'm in agreement that grain is over-used, but not necessarily over-rated... Many of my favourite movies (anything from Denis Villeneuve, The Matrix - and even streaming series, such as a True Detectives or The Bear - have at least a hint of grain or grain-like image quality (ie BM-like noise). In my opinion, grain is just one way of achieving an atmospheric image that creates emotional responses that are deeply ingrained (excuse the pun). Grain is just one way of adding texture to an image, and texture creates a subliminal reaction to it... it's a "touch" sense that is being invoked or primed. Used this way, it's very subtle... but even if people aren't aware, I believe that used right it will nevertheless have an impact on a viewer's experience of an image. There is a brilliant book by Jennifer Barker called "The Tactile Eye" which is a dive into the phenomenology of the immersive experience of watching film. She points out that the texture - if we take the term metaphorically rather than literally - extends to everything about the film-making process that impacts the final image. Just as lens choice and camera movement change how we experience a scene, so do texture choices. Grain is a sort of meta-texture, I think... it sets a mood for a whole film, alongside all the other factors you've mentioned that affect the look and ambience. Speaking of Villeneuve, one of the things that his films always explore is ambiguity. Grain, to my mind, adds a bit of ambiguity 'dust' to a project... I suspect that's why he chose to film digitally for Dune, but then convert to physical film... My 2 cents!

[@cleverghostchili]

I’m ecstatic I have viewers that are just as enthusiastic! I have quite a few subjective image quality videos planned, however they may require me to buy another camera to illustrate such differences, exciting nonetheless. I enjoyed the subtle grain in Dune particularly for daytime desert scenes. My only qualm is when it is too noticeable. I feel this way toward lighting as well. For someone like myself that over dissects scenes, sometimes I just want it to feel invisible. Simplicity is divinity for most of my projects. Thanks for the change!

[@neurojitsu]

@@cleverghostchili Yes I'm the sort of person too who deconstructs everything to understand it better... and I have been known to take it rather too far for my humble needs, but hey if I'm having fun right?! Dune is a fascinating movie, so much thought and love went into that movie... I can't wait for the next instalment, out March in UK. I agree by the way on the preference for subtlety including lighting... things like the BM light fall-off in a sunset scene get me really excited about an image, and what can make a viewer feel. It's the feeling an image invokes in the viewer that fascinates me, beyond the obvious aesthetic pleasure of a beautiful image. Well, look forward to seeing which camera it is you're thinking of buying!

[@meiser96]

Im a german film student and been visiting some Film festivals in Germany, Rumania and Luxembourg. I can say the new generation of Film makers also goes for a Gritty, Grainy and Contrasty look. Even when Things are Shot on Alexas, and i have to say i Like it. when its thought out it can work like a good cc to give it even more of a feeling.

[@cleverghostchili]

Ye I think the new Arri textures is very intriguing and I love that it’s baked in so it’s a conscious decision before you start rolling

[@EdProsser]

I am definitely guilty of whacking on the grain - in my latest vid I made a conscious decision to present some of the setups without grain and love the shots a lot more for that. Your channel and images are definitely persuading me to experiment with cleaner setups - still closely monitoring used Otus lenses 👀

[@cleverghostchili]

Still monitoring Komodo’s as well. I’ve perused your old vids as well 🤣

[@thetropiki]

I really dig the video. Good points. I personally use grain on my videos because it’s connected with my art but sometimes I just want to shoot something which will not decrease the image quality of my camera which is fx30

[@cleverghostchili]

Love it! I like it when character has intent, just not substituting the art form

[@TylerEdwards]

Some great points in here and also beautiful footage. For me, grain has its place but can be over utilized just like how a gimbal or drone can be over used. Grain works for some stuff and can look amazing and it can also look distracting.

[@cleverghostchili]

What’s your go to recipe! I think if I had a better recipe that worked better on KZbin I’d use more subtle grain

[@HHKFilms1]

@@cleverghostchili grain and KZbin go together like cigarettes and ice cream there are only a few web players that I would feel comfortable trying to view grain properly on KZbin compression is so bad and it makes grain look horrible as well as the footage underneath a lot of the time I watched your video on beating KZbin compression and while I agree with several of the things said I don’t think KZbin is a good final resting place for showcasing maximum quality versions of your work Vimeo has much lower compression relatively speaking and holds grain significantly better

[@cleverghostchili]

I also upload on Vimeo and it’s such a better platform for high quality content, unfortunately it’s such a poor user experience, it feels slow, search engine is outrageously specific, nightmares with embedding videos. Poor customer support team, outages, prices, lag and other issues. KZbin has mostly been a positive experience aside from compression. I also enjoy the community here and enjoy the exposure, but the image quality hit can be soul crushing at times.

[@mikafoxx2717]

Yeah, it's too bad but we have to deal with KZbin's shortcomings. I have seen high bitrate 1080p advertised for premium at least.. Noise looks excellent in high bitrate All-I .@@cleverghostchili

[@holajavier7791]

Gracias desde España por tu contenido, eres inspirador.

[@cleverghostchili]

Mucho gusto hablo un poco español

[@stewartmoore]

Totally agree with you !

[@cleverghostchili]

I’m taken aback! I’m still bracing myself for grain enthusiasts to comment

[@whatisagent5629]

Great video. While everyone gets caught up in LOOK by applying random effects for band-aid reasons, everyone forget about the STORY. STORY should dictate the visuals.

[@shueibdahir]

I think the grain and mist filters and the overall nostalgic image is used to mitigate the effects of debayering, compression, chroma subsampling, lower bitdepth and all in camera processing. That's exatcly the reason why photographers don't use them. The need for such tricks falls of completely when you have a camera with a fully bayered raw image (braw is not one). That's when the need for good glass is at it's highest, since raw shows of every single imperfection of the lenses used. That's also the reason why you like the look of your sigma fp paired with a zeiss lens. Modern cinema cameras used in production today utilise raw with a combination of high quality lenses to create a beautifully rendered image along with set design and lighting

[@cleverghostchili]

Wonderful knowledge you've shared, you've explained technically what I've only felt and I plan on confirming this with an upcoming camera down the line. Braw is indeed not true raw hence how they've avoided red patent, but i still consider it a good codec. I've always prioritized what's in front of the camera, things like costume, props and location, I cant imagine having a meticulously crafted set just to be contaminated with artifacts and halation not to mention the proud work of makeup or costume design

[@BlaineWestropp1]

Clean lens gang. Vanilla ice cream gang. T* gang. We on the same page.

[@cleverghostchili]

Great minds film alike

[@luispaniagua23]

Beautiful

[@8lec_R]

I like grain because it adds texture. I shoot at a little less than 1080p so it lacks fine resolution, grain helps fake it and also makes aliasing less noticable

[@cleverghostchili]

Yep especially for mirrorless cameras I think it can bring back some of that texture

[@Filmhiveco]

Love this

[@DastanZhumagulov]

I think grain/film emulation/diffusion filters have their place and time and can look beautiful when executed well and is coherent with the story being told. I would argue that while there are lots of videography KZbinrs that use&abuse those things, that’s just the tiniest part of the visual medium currently present in the world. If you look at most of the current TV shows, movies, commercials, music videos and social media content, it’s generally very sterile/non-filmic looking. Even giant Marvel blockbusters are, let alone soap dramas, reality TV, cooking vlogs etc. So I think that outside the small niche of “cinematic” content creators, the dirty/gritty/nostalgic look is barely overdone

[@cleverghostchili]

Good take, agree with nearly everything, one reason for the clinical aspect is most camera operators that can afford these high end cameras are professionals that do commercial work which requires clinical bright images. That look is very different than the cinematography from narrative, which further pushes this rebellious gritty look to balance the scales. I find myself more in the center, which I believe is underrepresented

[@renaissancedigital5730]

To me the film look is more than just grain or halation. Film has a certain texture to it that feels different than digital. Someone described it as being sharp but lacking in detail. To me digital is the opposite, soft edges but a lot of detail. It's something I can usually recognize very quickly and always prefer it.

[@cleverghostchili]

Interesting!

[@addchannelname-ws8fi]

If you are struggling with KZbin compression, you can try upscaling the original video to 48 FPS (with each image lasting two frames to maintain the 24 FPS rate) or even 60 FPS to trick KZbin into giving you a better codec.

[@cleverghostchili]

yeah we've tried this, unfortunately no success there. The only guarantee method that is proven to work is uploading HDR, but that requires a completely different pipeline

[@chakk0]

Great video! Have to say i like grain or better said noise, i don't put grain on the footage but i don't care if there's noise from high iso

[@cleverghostchili]

I’m also don’t mind a little noise, sometimes even feels more natural than grain, not a fan of color noise though

[@chakk0]

@@cleverghostchili Sure, colornoise is not an option

[@hugomalpeyre]

Lovely framing. Fig fan ❤❤❤

[@cleverghostchili]

The only fan I need

[@madsappeal]

Good clinical lenses are just really expensive 😂 I’d love to afford some Nisi Athenas, but it’s just a hobby, no money in it for me. Choosing a path between using grain or not sounds a bit dramatic, it’s just another tool in the box, but I’ve had the same thoughts even though I’m just getting started. I also refrain from the grain sometimes 😊

[@cleverghostchili]

Completely valid points, thanks for sharing, also mostly a hobby for me

[@biggooseadventures]

Nice video

[@boogeyb]

Beautiful and food for thoughts as always . You finally chose to keep the BM?

[@cleverghostchili]

Yes, better highlights than the sigma. Also very fun camera to use, perfect for me. Been using it a lot of b roll and some macro

[@boogeyb]

@@cleverghostchili Make sense. I'm still hesitating because of the low light capability which seems to be off from what i'v seen on your previous review. Did you find a way to deal with that i presume?

[@cleverghostchili]

@@boogeyb unfortunately not, there’s not exceptional detail as you can see in this video in uncontrolled dark shadows, best you can do is just have better lighting and not try to underexpose too much (which is my guilty sin), or possibly try to clip the blacks completely to prevent a washed out look. Lots of raw cameras behave this way anyway, also bear in mind KZbin looks worse than the actual file by a large margin

[@boogeyb]

@@cleverghostchili Thank you for your insight. I can't decide between the FP and the BM full frame yet. Thanks again for your beautiful imagery

[@neurojitsu]

I've been reflecting a lot on Sigma FP vs BM 6KFF and... I'm going for the BM... but planning to get a Sigma FP-L later. My reasoning is that georgious image on the BM feels to me a nice blend of the FP immersive depth and thick colour, and something magical about the BM painterly look... I think it's not for everyone, and certainly not for every type of project. Look aside, the BM workflow from camera straight to Resolve/Fusion is another strong advantage the BM has. DNG is a very file-heavy format, and my current computer setup is optimised for 4K timelines, so I think the BM workflow will be more painless.

[@tomguder]

good thoughts! I can take something with me.

[@cleverghostchili]

That’s all I could hope for 🌶️

[@tyoung]

Camera and lens combo? Im guessing P6k w/ otus, looks amazing dude

[@cleverghostchili]

Right on Bmcc6kff and Otus, tech specs usually at end of video

[@tyoung]

@@cleverghostchili Oh shit I made the credits! Just saw that, classy touch

[@evayap_]

I see you are a fellow fries without ketchup enjoyer 😎

[@cleverghostchili]

Does one eat the potato chip with tomato? I think not

[@evayap_]

@@cleverghostchili the way Ronald McDonald intended

[@botbot3698]

Do you intend on trying the new Zeiss Nano Primes? 👀

[@cleverghostchili]

Only if they are sent to me. Not impressed by the image quality as an Otus user and I’ve been enjoying more weight from my lenses

[@botbot3698]

@@cleverghostchili Understandable. They seem to have a weird amount of CA for modern Zeiss lenses. The Otus lenses are really hard to beat at this price point. Do you ever wish there was a wider Otus available?

[@cleverghostchili]

Something like an 18 or 14mm Otus lens would be amazeballs for super cool Lubezki style wides, sadly not going to happen, would also love a 35 or 42mm otus. 28 is still wide enough for all of my needs @@botbot3698

[@albiolonline120]

what lense did you used on min 0:35?

[@cleverghostchili]

Zeiss Otus 28mm f1.4

[@romaringabriel3607]

Hey, do you export your video in MP4 file for YT upload?

[@cleverghostchili]

No, ProRes HQ, h265 occasionally for longer content where image quality is unnecessary. I also tried uploading highest dnxhr 444 12bit, no noticeable improvements kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6GknamFhrlprMU

[@PitNeex]

Embrace the sharpness! Why make a digital video made for a digital platform and not a cinema screen look like another medium that film is. It is crazy how much effort is put on film emulation but so little to experimentation on what digital can do, extreme staff like people were doing with film since the beginning of the medium. Extreme color grading not another kodak whatever simulation. Enough with nostalgia, it has been milked to the max the last decade.

[@cleverghostchili]

It’s a line everyone dances around. Ultimately I’ve decided to utilize the tools that represent the era. Filmmaking is exciting because it evolves, and just like the stories, we should try to bring something new to the table. Next thing you know we’ll have a different output than rec709, maybe HDR is the standard, always keep moving forward

[@samuelsimon5966]

u have bad taste in film. thats all. like those mean girls who watch avatar 20 times a week

[@cleverghostchili]

What’s Avatar? Is that a film about a nobody making assumptions about others?

[@Old-School-Liberal]

No grain, it just doesn’t look good in video but photography looks ok. The Creator doesn’t look good I didn’t like the look.

[@cleverghostchili]

Wow I felt the same way, watched 15 minutes then had to stop

[@suburbanartist]

I agree. The look and texture was not appealing. Looked like low budget film.

[@Jacobyfilms]

To each their own, The Creator looked fantastic to me and was reminiscent of classic sci fi, I dug the grain.