Tolkien wove Catholic themes throughout Lord of the Rings

[@wynbrown7321]

Always wondered why I love Lord of the Rings when most of my family and friends preferred Harry Potter.

[@cabellero1120]

Harry Potter is a better story

[@mstash5]

@@cabellero1120 yeah, if you're an effeminate.

[@cabellero1120]

@@mstash5 The protagonist of the Harry Potter stories was Male. Most of the wizards were Male. Dumbledore, Hagrid, Snape were All Male

[@andresleon-jimenez7004]

​@@cabellero1120 what he's saying is that if you look at the grand majority of Rowling fans, they are mostly woke and from the LGBT community; whereas that's the minority of Tolkien fans, but the majority of his fans are conservative, Christian Stoics.

[@cabellero1120]

@@andresleon-jimenez7004 that may be true,but there are people who like HP better.

[@fightforwhatsright]

I read this as a young teen. Not wanting it end, I would only read a page a day towards the end. Knowing what I know now about it..A metaphor of spiritual life. Savoring every day like those pages ... Bless!

[@Procopius464]

No it's not a metaphor. Tolkien hated allegory and said so. He wanted everyone to take his work literally and not as allegory or metaphor.

[@Jannette-mw7fg]

That he wanted thatdoes not matter....

[@ellenurben9318]

Chris, thanks for all 😮your teaching, so needed for our teens. 😅I have a young girl in our Bible Studies who speaks about you saved her life with your book, I am. I worked at VU when your Mom worked there. We pray for your and your family. GOD BLESS YOU!!!

[@dancronin826]

The theme I love most, is how sin (the ring) is destroyed by divine Providence not by heroism

[@mstash5]

Frodo destroying the Ring was not heroism?

[@michelledarkentell7536]

@@mstash5 Frodo doesn't actually destroy the ring.

[@AJ_Jingco]

​@@mstash5Frodo did not destroy the Ring, but it was Gollum.

[@cabellero1120]

Detachment from things like pride, conceit, greed, not just an object ( a ring)

[@conservativecatholic9030]

So, if ring wearers are sinners, and ring bearers are carrying the cross, does that make Sam a Simon of Cyrene figure?

[@aaronclark2599]

If memory serves me right, i think Bishop Robert Barron had an awesome video about LOTR where he draws the same parallel and specifically talks about Sam and how sometimes we need others to help us carry our crosses.

[@conservativecatholic9030]

@@aaronclark2599 I remember watching that years ago, but I think I forgot that part. I think I may give that a rewatch.

[@thomasjorge4734]

Yes, if Frodo is a Priest, Sam is his Deacon. Don Quixote, the Knight and Sancho Panza, his Squire.

[@kevinkelly2162]

From the way they are limping they look like altar boys.

[@conservativecatholic9030]

@@kevinkelly2162 classy

[@meischix]

Looking back, I suddenly realized another symbolism for Gollum is Judas Iscariot. Their evil act of betrayal ultimately paves the way to salvation.

[@teresaa96289]

Euchatrastophy.

[@Procopius464]

No, there is no symbolism in Tolkien. He said so multiple times. Read his letters.

[@Michael-pw2td]

Good pont. Excellent point

[@Metanoia000]

@@Procopius464you are delusional

[@Procopius464]

@@Metanoia000 The fact is I'm right, and all the people saying it's allegory are delusional. Tolkien expressed his hate for allegory in the intro to LOTR; "I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." He also talks about it in his letters. Go and do some reading, reading is your friend.

[@kimthetruthofit6965]

Tolkien surely had a grasp of the true realms. The eternal battle of good v evil rages on even more apparent in 2023 🌏🙏👑

[@OliveMule]

🇻🇦THERE'S ONLY 1 HOLY CATHOLIC & APOSTOLIC CHURCH🇻🇦

[@Jannette-mw7fg]

Thans! I always found that themostimportand thing in book! The fact that Gollem was needed in (and leading to) the end! And itwas mercyful pitty that made that possible!

[@Paul9443]

Great video

[@seanmoran2743]

Stories of old gives a better explanation Especially about the ring

[@micklumsden3956]

I generally thought this was okay, although I think you were a little dismissive of Buddha. And I think you are mistaken that, when someone puts on the ring, they become invisible to the good - remember the voice that called to Frodo when he wore the ring on Ammon Hen “take it off, take it off, take it off you fool“. Tolkien does not spell out whose voice this was - but it certainly comes from a point of goodness

[@paulchapman8023]

I think it's implied to be Gandalf. As he says in book III, chapter V, "The White Rider": "The Ring has now passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that..." When could the Ring have been "very nearly revealed to the Enemy" if not when Frodo was wearing it and sitting on Amon Hen?

[@cabellero1120]

LOTR Game Of Thrones Harry Potter All of These have pagan elements LOTR is just a christianization of pagan lore. Soldiers who fought to keep their city from the muslim turks around AD 1457 is a Christian story. As Saracens and the Ottoman Empire came to be in that part of the world.

[@mstash5]

You are confusing pre-Christian mythology for witchcraft and sorcery, of which _The Lord of the Rings_ distances itself from. Also, Christ Himself delivered parables through *storytelling.* Furthermore, Christianisation of pagan lore is absolutely Catholic and was in fact done in the past. Again, though, Tolkien didn't delve into allegory.

[@blsdanielmunster2449]

This is what happens when content providers care nothing for what Tolkien meant. Look at his introduction in the Fellowship of the Ring where he talks about how little regard he has for allegory.

[@travcollier]

Also what happen when people of whatever particular religion don't realize how much their mythology borrows / is inspired by other mythologies. Tolkien was keenly aware that he was creating a new mythology by mashing up elements and themes from lots of sources. He wasn't trying to just to represent a particular mythos in a different setting (like CS Lewis), but instead create something new out of somewhat familiar bits.

[@daniels7907]

Yet he used it incessantly. To the extent that he doesn't seem to have even realized that he was doing so. Which is perhaps natural because, as noted in the discussion, Tolkien was heavily influenced by his religious beliefs (a fact which he himself freely acknowledged), which includes a scripture that makes heavy use of allegories and parables in such a matter-of-fact manner that many people erroneously believe that the entire Bible is meant to be taken literally. In actuality, much of it is of the "...and the moral of the story is..." The same is true of legendarium. Indeed, Gary Gygax, who invented Dungeons & Dragons, strongly disliked the Legendarium because it wasn't compatible with his mechanical view of fantasy. He was skimming past all the subtext and trying to reduce the whole thing to numbers and rules.

[@meltingpoint97]

Just as a fish does not recognise water because it is all around him

[@Metanoia000]

Tolkien had to be euphemistic. It was a purposeful move and one day if you get wise, you will come to realize the truth. Tolkien was also a cradle Catholic, so cope harder.

[@cabellero1120]

The storylines of the films are symbolic of a Christian journey.. However, they are Also filled with Pre Christian Pagan ideology.

[@mstash5]

Such a weak argument. Yes, there are pre-Christian _elements_ in the story, per se (it's European literature). It is certainly NOT one of "Pagan ideology", however - and it is not allegorical. You seem to lack an understanding of Catholic morals and masculinity.

[@micklumsden3956]

Two questions: firstly, can you give some examples of “pagan ideology“ in the Lord of the rings? And secondly, if you are in a pre-Christian world, what’s wrong with pagan ideology?

[@DonaldBuckley7202]

Tolkien missed an opportunity to preach the gospel by having this pitiful, hapless Gollum take the ring into the hell fire of Mount Doom. He should have had a sinless man voluntarily take the ring into the fire and then rise again on the third day. C. S. Lewis made that statement quite clearly in the death and resurrection of Aslan in order to redeem Prince Peter. Lewis got it right. Tolkioen blunderred.

[@Procopius464]

Tolkien was trying to write a story, not allegory. Tolkien hated allegory.

[@mstash5]

C. S. Lewis was all about allegory - Tolkien was not. There was no blunder. Also, Frodo bore the Ring into the hell fire of Mount Doom, and Hobbits represent a kind of worldly innocence and purity.

[@micklumsden3956]

I rarely feel angry about posts on the Internet. But really! I suggest that you have the opportunity to write your own epic story, and you can choose to write it in whatever way you like. Tolkien chose to write it the way he did, and only he knows the full extent of his reasons.

[@DonaldBuckley7202]

And when I do I expect that I will have many critics and many suggestions concerning other plot lines etc. Is'nt that what good writing is all about? Take a pill and get over yourself.@@micklumsden3956

[@joolz5747]

Why does everybody have to talk about the Lord of the rings all the time when they speak in their videos I don’t understand it. It doesn’t make sense to me because I didn’t watch it and it seems like all these Catholic priest and speakers thought it was the greatest thing in the world. All I know is I didn’t see it and it doesn’t appeal to me to have to listen to these discussions about it and it doesn’t make me want to see it but I’m glad you are happy about it and that’s great.

[@Looshmal]

So you’re complaining about a video titled “Catholic Themes in LOTR” for talking about the Catholic themes in LOTR? Did you also require a trigger warning?

[@blsdanielmunster2449]

Why do they do it? To make it more effective click bait.

[@Looshmal]

@@blsdanielmunster2449 It's not click bait. They actually do discuss the Catholic themes in LOTR that the author of LOTR explicitly said were there.

[@blsdanielmunster2449]

@@Looshmal I guess I see the term “Clickbait“ More generally than you do.

[@Looshmal]

@@blsdanielmunster2449 Clickbait typically refers to the practice of writing sensationalized or misleading headlines in order to attract clicks on a piece of content. It often relies on exaggerating claims or leaving out key information in order to encourage traffic. The term is generally used in a dismissive sense.

[@Procopius464]

This is a very bad take. Nothing in LOTR or Silmarillion symbolizes anything. If you read the Tolkien letters, he states very clearly that he does not write allegory, and he that he hates allegory. He says so multiple times, and anyone familiar with Tolkien will know this. Tolkien was historically minded, not allegorical. If you respect him, you should stop misreading his work and his intentions. It is true that he was Catholic, and very devout. The Valar fill the function of saints, and for that matter there are also saints that people call on (like Earandel). Mandos is basically Purgatory. When humans die they go there for a while before they pass on to Heaven or Hell. When elves die they remain there and are corrected before they reincarnate. So there are some parallels, but there is no allegory. You should read the Tolkien letters before you try to do a video like this.

[@TerribleScroll]

And yet Tolkin has freely admitted that Lord of the Ring’s is a fundamentally a catholic work.

[@Procopius464]

@@TerribleScroll Yea it is, but not because of allegory or any hidden meaning. Mandos functions as purgatory for the humans, and the Valar fill the function of higher saints. Illuvatar is supposed to be God, and Morgoth is the devil. Tolkien hated allegory and said so many times. The people who made this video didn't read his letters, or they are hoping the audience didn't.

[@thedarkwolf3047]

@@Procopius464Aren’t you admitting right here in this comment that he made Allegories with these gods in his book??? Also there really does seem to be a lot of coincidences in the story that point back to the faith he was so in love with. Maybe you’re right but there are definitely connections here to the Bible and deeper Catholic themes that if anything else must be a subconscious allegory he made. I mean give me a break the kingdom of Gondor, The Kingdom of Christ. The return of the King…

[@Procopius464]

@@thedarkwolf3047 There are no allegories in LOTR, this addressed in many of his letters, and he also says so in the intro to FOTR. Read the intro in FOTR. You are confusing allegory with applicability, which is also something he talked about. I don't know how much I can say because the website keeps removing my comments.

[@sydfreed9818]

To bad it wasn't Christian Bible themes it portrayed in the movies instead of catholic traditions.

[@mstash5]

The ancient Catholic Church literally wrote the Bible.

[@sydfreed9818]

The old testament was written in Hebrew by the Isrealites and the prophets and the new testament was written by jews of the 1st century church who were the original followers who were jews. The Bible was written and printed in England and became the king James Bible. It wasn't from the catholic church who came along in the 3rd century from the Romans to a pope.

[@cherylwaclawczyk9098]

@@sydfreed9818 I challenge you to read the early fathers of the Church such as Iranaeus, Justin Martyr and Augustine. The word Catholic comes from katholikos , meaning universal or whole, and was used by St. Ignatius of Antioch in a letter to the Smyrnaeans in 110 AD. If you are going to engage in discussion about Church history you really should learn it from the source, not just later propaganda. I dare ya!

[@andresleon-jimenez7004]

​@@cherylwaclawczyk9098 wasn't it at the Council of Nicea where they compiled all the scriptures that correlated with the Apostolic tradition Jesus Christ left behind for us to follow, hence the creation of the Bible?

[@ahappynigerian]

⁠@@andresleon-jimenez7004Nope. That would be solidified decades later in the Council of Rome (382 AD), Council of Carthage (397 AD), etc.

[@Theunspokentruth77]

Even the popular song 'hallelujah' by Leonard Cohen used catholic theme but the song is a masterpiece of spiritual deception. Using catholic themes won't lead anyone to heaven.

[@connerpeloquin5350]

Are we gonna do this all over again?

[@Theunspokentruth77]

@@connerpeloquin5350 they uploaded again too.

[@connerpeloquin5350]

@@Theunspokentruth77 And? Maybe this time you should try watching the video?

[@Theunspokentruth77]

@@connerpeloquin5350 the heading says it all. Lotr is being christianized. Someday next generation would argue that lotr is the Christian journey or the new Bible. Lol

[@annalgesic5874]

LOTR has been taught in Catholic schools (we study this in elementary decades ago) as another way to understand our Christian journey. I have even forgotten about this book until they made that movie. It was never taught that it could replace the Bible. Only fools will think that way. Is that how you perceive your fellowmen while you are sitting in your Sauronic tower? Fools, dumbs, stupid?

[@rhwinner]

I don't believe these themes should be present. I am for removing them.

[@blsdanielmunster2449]

You have your wish: they're not there now because they never were.

[@annarodriguez9868]

The author put the themes in the LOTR. You want to erase what he intentionally included in his writings.

[@rhwinner]

@@annarodriguez9868 To bring them up to present standards, yes.

[@mstash5]

@@rhwinner you should honestly reevaluate your life in relation to the world and what it means to have true Christian morals.

[@ЖудаМ]

Then write your own book