I'm making my own high-end router. From scratch.

[@MoFan20]

"CE" is the abbreviation of "conformité européenne" (French for "European conformity"). Instead of machining from raw block of aluminum, it is cheaper to just use an aluminum sheet which will be cut by laser then bend. You can also have a very nice design with this method for a fraction of the cost.

[@maticjelovcan]

I always thought it meant Chinese Export 🤣 nah, just kidding. 😅

[@samiraperi467]

@@maticjelovcan Fun fact: there's also Chinese Export, the logo is slightly different (basically different kerning).

[@mpetrovi]

Indeed... or use of the shelf extruded aluminium cases ;)

[@jfbeam]

Yeap. There's billet aluminum case - what he built - and extruded, stamped, and cast. Stamping is quick and cheap (once the molds are made), but it's not the best looking output. (no sharp corners.) And then there's the issue of low volume; anyone who would/could do this would never invest the time in making the molds for just a few hundred, or even thousand units.

[@ARJUNDASED]

Yeah pressed and formed don't have the unibody feel of the CNC machined but I do get your points

[@aracrg]

Just want to say that I think the internals of a router are 100x more important than the case. Don't understand the motivation for CNC aluminium. Sheet metal would be just fine, and a big upgrade from plastic!

[@OctagonalSquare]

It just looks really nice. That’s it

[@zuighemdanmaar752]

When he said he's going to fix the price to value ratio by upping the internals cost is when I hooked off. Please don't focus that much on the external casing, while plastic is mostly disliked it is used by almost everything for a reason.

[@TheObsesedAnimeFreaks]

a cnc case isn't really that much of an issue. there are ways to make a cnc aluminum case quite easilly without enormous costs. with scale prices go down and the cost of production also goes down. it fhe case was made out of like 1/8 aluminum plate it would be even cheaper but still maintain most of the benefits of cnc milling the entire thing. you can bend and weld the plate togeather for the outer ring and then weld the top on, and then cnc the finalized touches for the case to accept the bottom piece.

[@ashleyzinyk399]

@@OctagonalSquare How often do you look at your router, though?

[@felderup]

@@ashleyzinyk399 some people hang them on a wall in a bedroom or office, they gotta at least look ok.

[@plagosus]

Great idea for picking up the aluminium, but using sheets is much easier and more cost effective than cutting it from a block. We do not mind the size, as long it can fit in 1U rack space. Multiple 10GbE options would be great: copper RJ45 and SPF+ and so on... Also, ability to run any open source OS would be a great plus. Homelabbers are gonna love it!

[@hubertnnn]

If the project is supposed to be for home users then 1U rack is way too big. For commercial use, its fine, but for home use it has to be small enough to fit on a bookshelf, or on a desk next to you computer.

[@plagosus]

@@hubertnnn If it's smaller (as planned) than it will also fit inside the rack (with adaptor or whatever, but it will fit.

[@avovk1852]

​@@hubertnnnthere already a ton of routers that much smaller than 1U in width, but make that up with long adapters

[@beakerwsw]

Please make this have rack ears. I didnt buy a 22u rack to use as a shelving unit.

[@jimmymac601]

Aluminum is a much better heat sink than the construction grade sheet metal.

[@aspzx]

I agree with the other commenter who said the internals are more important than the case. I think you should focus on designing and selling the motherboard for the router standalone before putting any more effort into designing the case. That way you can gauge interest in the actual pure functionality of the product. If there isn't as much interest in it as you thought then a fancy case isn't going to change that. Early adopters can fashion (or 3D print) their own case or even run it open air. With that said, I'm probably just as keen as you are on the look and feel of the product as the functionality and would love to replace my current router with a nice clean small aluminium device.

[@DeNNiiiable]

for the housing there are many ways to keep the cost down, I saw a few suggestions below. few suggestions here. 1. make it intel based like the new intel n95/n100 chipset. 2. ensure its no more then 1RU high and that 2x could sit in a single RU side by side if required. 3. ensure the network cards are intel based and not realtek. 4. Slot for LTE Module? 5.CPU Heatsink transfer heat into housing. I would not go with ARM as most items you could use it for go out the windows. I am pretty sure you can find something motherboard wise. the units i currently use for LAB's are 15cmX12cmx5CM (to tall for 1RU)intel 6005, 16gb ram, 4x 2.5gb and intell 225v3 nterowk cards. 226 are better but less support still especially bsd based solutions. There has to be somethign out there that might be a little deeper if required. I paid the above unit with 4gLTE i think around 450USD few years back

[@tomazzaman]

I'm very reluctant to develop a new product in x86 architecture when the whole world seems to be moving away from it (Apple Silicon). Plus, the CPUs you're mentioning have no networking peripheral built in, so I imagine separate controllers would add significantly to the overall cost if I want to add two 10Gb ports. As for the height, yes, it'll actually be even narrower/slimmer but more on that in a separate video. And no, there will be no Realtek network chips. We'll use Marvell. There will most likely be a PCIe port on it in one for or another - those details are still being worked on. Thanks for the feedback!

[@samiraperi467]

Intel's 2.5G eth NICs have had issues lately, be sure to get fixed chipsets. Also I think for this use case Realtek is fine. Can't even remember having problems with Realtek cards *ever* (unlike, say, Aquantia (that got bought by Marvell), where I was unable to get their multigig cards working under Linux), and it's not like they're a new player in the market.

[@RedAbsent]

@@tomazzaman except for using Intel, otherwise I agree with the comment above. 2.5G is already mainstream and of course wifi 7 near enough

[@truckerallikatuk]

Agreed, Intel as an option if possible. And definitely an option to rack mount it would be awesome. Simple folded steel rack ears like Mikrotik use would work.

[@felixjohnson3874]

Heavily disagree on architecture. A good ARM has TONS of advantages over x86, not the least of which being power efficiency. Plus things like box64 can run most x86_64 software on ARM now IIRC for the things without ARM variants. I'd rather an over specced ARM chip that can double duty as a low-load homelab or media server than an x86 chip limited by power draw, heat dissipation, etc.

[@nothsa2k]

If you plan to add SFP+ connectors, please make sure they'll also work at 2.5G and 5G speeds, instead of only 1G and 10G. This will allow some people (including me) with FTTH from their ISP to connect their internet SFP+ directly to the router, instead of having to go through a switch or SFP-to-RJ45 media converter :)

[@mbe102]

SUPER SUPER SECOND THIS! Pllease!!!

[@beakerwsw]

I thought he said there was already 2 or more RJ45 2.5 gig ports?

[@nothsa2k]

@@beakerwsw Please re-read the original post. If the FTTH is coming in on a 2.5Gb SFP connector (like mine does), and the SFP cages on this router only handle 1Gb and 10Gb (like many do), then I would need to plug the 2.5Gb SFP into a media converter or a switch to convert it into a 2.5Gb RJ45 connection to be able to plug it into this router. If the SFP cages support 2.5Gb, then I could plug it directly into the SFP cage without any additional hardware.

[@murdo_mck]

Don't neglect thermal profiling and vibration/drop testing. 55 C ambient air temperature is possible in some environments. You might be shocked what some shipping companies do with parcels.

[@murdo_mck]

Also design lifecycle because computer parts typically have a very short lifecycle from leading edge to obsolete. By the time the product is released your CPU or networking chip could be close to last orders / lifetime buy. If you are lucky the next generation will be pin compatible.

[@tomazzaman]

Actually, all the parts we're discussing both with engineers and distrubutors have *at least* 10 years left on the lifecycles. I won't have it any other way.

[@caseyknolla8419]

A 10G capable homelab router is something I've been looking for for a long time. I'd definitely be interested in this! Rack-mountable would certainly be preferred though.

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you for the feedback - yes, it'll be rackmountable.

[@MikeG4936]

I don't understand why something like this would serve the purpose? kzbin.info/www/bejne/d3y4ha2gdpaaqKcsi=XXNmu0fFajtDMEcW

[@cpanic1153]

what's wrong with the dozen or more existing options?

[@tomazzaman]

@@cpanic1153 too expensive, no support, no documentation, ugly, vendor lock-in, lack of features, pick any.

[@meco]

While the effort is amazing and I really support the choice for ARM this sounds like a huge undertaking. My first thoughts go to a Rockchip RK3588 (mainline linux compatible) SoC and a generic SFP+ network card over pcie. This could probably be done rather cheaply if you would only concentrate on a carrier board for a compute model (like the one from Friendlyelec CM3588 which costs 125$ retail for 16GB RAM + 64GB EMMC). Hopefully we get regularly updates on this effort.

[@eplus341]

Hey. I made my own x86 router using a gygabite ITX board and an 11th gen i3, the main reason I went for that board is because it was heavily discounted and it is actually a pretty decent mobo, it has a 2.5G RJ45 which I use as WAN, added an expansion card with 4xRJ45 ports, I also replaced the inbuilt WiFi 5 with a WiFi 6E (dbdc) card, also added a 4G modem for mobile networking. All of it works great on OpenWrt, though I will just switch to a more complex linux distro since the CPU can handle it. The main reason I went for an x86 is due to AES hardware acceleration for OpenVPN purposes. All of this fits into a 40 EUR case which I bought off AliExpress, very small form factor (though larger than your box).

[@tomazzaman]

I'm running a Supermicro Superserver mini-ITX, in an extended enclosure that also allows me to fit in an additional PCIe card (Mellanox connectX-3) to have a 10Gb "backbone" throughout the house. I'm preparing a video in which I'll show it in more detail!

[@bb46sl]

Top! Congrats on being selected by Katapult! Wishing you all the best with this project! And yes, this type of content is great! Keep on rocking! 💪

[@francoisscala417]

As you plan to design your own SBC, one key point could be to have a modular approach for network interfaces, so you can choose 4*SFP+ or 4*SFP28 or 1*QSPF28 or ....

[@dave_dennis]

This is perfect content for me. I’m never interested in doing that much hardware development just to build 1 of something. I am always looking for a fun project that can also be profitable. So far most of my sales have been through Tindie. But I’m look hard at turning this up a notch. So seeing how someone else tackles the problems of doing this as a business is very interesting to me. Thanks brother.

[@tomazzaman]

You're most welcome! There will be a lot of content like this, I want to share the whole journey!

[@SmuutijsLV]

This video popped off on my recommended page, pressed on it, watched the video, did not regret it! Nice content and good luck with all this process! Can't wait to watch your other videos!

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you for your kind words! And welcome on board!

[@honeypablo74]

I don't know if I've missed something here but I find it hard to understand some of the decission making...... the cost of an Al case machined from billet has in turn driven you to a smaller form factor that in turn has driven to a custom MB design. 10gb routing is some way off being a home requirement so 99.9% of these routers will find their way into a 19" rack mount and the smaller chassis size will require mounting trays and face plates. Good luck with it - your video is great and enjoyed your story telling.

[@renxula]

Yeah, that certainly sounds like feature creep. Instead of putting an existing device in a box, now he has to design the motherboard from scratch too. I think this is the kind of stuff you do when you expect to sell millions of units, but it's a big undertaking for a small new company.

[@ZippyDooDa435]

Is there a way to get away from the solid block of Aluminum? For instance if all the sides are separate pieces. The top/bottom would be pieces, then each side could be a piece. If you had each corner fit together with interlocking circles (think how the two pieces of a door hinge fit together), then you feed a screw through the bottom, up through the interlocked corner, and screw into the top plate holding it all together/solid. Done right, it could fit together very tightly/sturdy and there would only be the seams between the pieces, but really would just be the edges. Would also open you up to offer different side panels that allow a rackmount kit to be attached! Either way, I'm on this ride till the end! Very cool idea.

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! In fact, we did briefly look at the possible tech to achieve the same result, such as welding, but no results/solutions yet. Will dig further! :)

[@Hexcede]

​​@@tomazzaman I was thinking this too. If you need something to screw into you could hypothetically machine a frame with the leftover aluminum. That itself may be a useful tool, being able to machine additional parts in parts of the aluminum you'd otherwise be getting rid of. This doesn't solve the underlying issue though. One thing you could consider is using separate pieces to your advantage aesthetically. Aka, machine each side of the router and possibly leave blocks for screwing into. Then for some sides you could use a different color or material for flat sections, e.g. after that rounded corner you could have long flat strips of a different color, or even a different material. This may be useful for things like an I/O shield for your motherboard and ports, which you can machine separately. Separating the sides results in a potentially much smaller overall volume, because you cut out most of the middle that you are discarding. Smaller bounding boxes = less material = cheaper, at the cost of having to machine addition parts. However, it is possible, likely even that you could machine the separate parts from the same block of aluminum, sticking them together as close as you can reasonably get (maybe an inch of separation). This would result in you being able to machine the four long skinny sides together. The big front and back could also be machined together, because they are both of the same size. If you can also make parts identical e.g. the top/bottom parts, left/right, and front/back, you can instead of machining them together simply machine 2 of them. And considering the necessity for some kind of area for I/O and ports, you could probably just leave out an entire side and machine an I/O shield with a simpler technique. If you design this with traditional I/O shields in mind for whatever motherboard form factor you use, this would allow other motherboards to be used. Batching different similarly sized parts together where the amount of empty space is minimized, and creating duplication for re-use of parts will mean you can just either use less material for multiple parts, or if truly identical, simply machining more of the part instead of having to machine multiple or machine them together would likely work great. You could even go a step further, and instead of machining the sides separately, also even machine the corners separately. You might even be able to create spots for something like tempered glass so you can show off the insides of your fancy new RGB gaming router fad starter. I can assume a tempered glass sheet is likely cheaper to produce than a part cut from a big block of aluminum, while also potentially benefitting the visual appeal. Lots of interesting ideas on how to try to reduce machining overhead, and create re-use where possible without sacrificing the aesthetic appeal of the case too much. Side note, but this is somewhat analogous to optimization in programming, in fact it is a reasonably accurate analogy even. Each part is a function, the desired shape is the code, and the 1 inch envelope is sort of like the overhead of running the code. Each part itself has an O(n^3) complexity. Like in programming breaking the pieces up too small is impractical and you add extra overhead unnecessarily. Also like in programming, re-use can lead to performance gains by being able to make optimizations (like cutting out the empty center of the router case as a cost by splitting it into separate pieces, or batching similarly sized parts together to reduce overhead). In programming there are often aesthetic preferences at play too, so a similar balancing game between cost and sleekness/cleanliness. Your budget or target cost is also like the hardware requirements you're trying to meet, and that governs how aggressively you will try to optimize. Pretty fun!

[@gytalas]

@@Hexcede @tomazzaman: Exactly, look the furnitures of Ikea, for example. How smart they are. Only the visible parts are painted or dedicated for visual and taktile appereance. The rest is only as less as possible, they should just functioning, not more. And this is the rules, what are working in the business. Be smart, be clever!

[@NileshKumar-uf4vh]

That's stupidly overpriced. Best solution is to rough cast and then jig machine it to lower processing cost for mount points etc

[@trevermcbride4041]

You could use the pcie from the cpu and build in support for a lte module on the motherboard, many companies like to use cell service as a backup in case their fiber gets cut. Could make this product easier to sell to a small business/medium business as this could be a requirement they look for in a router.

[@jrm523]

Thank you so much for your videos. I absolutely love this type of content and am learning so much from it. I appreciate your willingness to be fully transparent throughout the process. Keep up the great work! I'll be watching.

Wow, this is such an amazing project! I admire your passion and creativity for making your own router from scratch. I hope you succeed and share your progress with us! A quick note on your video: The acronym “CE” actually stands for “Conformité Européene,” which means “European Conformity.” It is a certification mark that applies to many types of products, not only consumer electronics. For example, you can also find it on construction products. It shows that the products meet the EU standards for health, safety, and environmental protection. CE marking allows the products to be sold freely in the European Economic Area.

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! Yep, the CE understanding was wrong on my part, thanks for the clarification!

[@kubato5054]

Love your video, I have hacked and got a router working and hope I can give you some ideas. I bought a Firebox T70 off eBay, then flashed Pf-sense onto it. To keep cost down and get you moving, use a metal box for cheap like me. Paint Red or Blue, offer your case as premium. Work on internals, I am looking at the new N100 CPU which is x86 base not arm. A serial or console port, then USB and two 10 Gig+ ports for plug in adapters and external power. This will make it very hot so in MB add fan connectors for low speed fans, Noctua NF-A4x10 PWM or thicker NF-A4x20 makes some great fans to use. These are just my thoughts...good luck....

[@BrainFix000]

Loving your videos, thanks for being so open and including all the details. One day I will follow in your footprints.

[@tomazzaman]

You are so welcome! Glad you find them useful. More to come!

[@aracrg]

Please consider the possibility of a built in switch chip and a group of switched ports.

[@ninostephen]

All the best on your venture! Quick question though. I understand that you are a big fan of aluminium. Wouldn't it be cheaper to use aluminium sheets instead of an aluminium block? The way I see it, it's costs less, it's easier and quicker to manufacture and less wasteful that having a subtractive process. While it does come with additional challenges and also some extra engineering work, it might still be much cheaper than milling a block. This is me just thinking. Would love to hear your thoughts on it! Thanks

[@tomazzaman]

Yep, this topic comes up quite a lot, because I too would like to lower the cost while trying to retain the look of it. Supposedly there's a process, similar to welding, that can achieve a similar outcome, however I have no experience with it, and will definitely need to do more homework on the topic. Will report when and if I learn more. Thanks!

[@Loader7272]

read my mind! would a stamped sheet be $ effecient? btw, the iot creeping into everything gives away privacy...ugg. sub & thumbs! 👍

[@-iIIiiiiiIiiiiIIIiiIi-]

I don't give a shet about what the case is made of. Just do what the other router companies are not providing. Things I care about: 1. Make it open source. Much like what is Pine64 is doing. 2. Has to be cost effective and bomb proof. I want a router that can just go on and on. 3. Make the Wifi upgradable. So whenever a new spec comes out (wifi 7/8/etc.) I can buy a new m.2 wifi card from you and upgrade the firmware. 4. Super power efficient. 10 watts or less.

[@tomazzaman]

YES! Finally someone who wants the same things as myself. Except for the case. But we'll talk about that. :D

[@carneeki]

Sheet steel if you aren't using the case as a heat sink. Can be drilled and folded (and welded or brazed or soldered) at home. Cerakote for colouring might also work for the colour, it's a ceramic coating. Depends on how much you want to do yourself in the diy aspect.

[@DanSlotea]

Why not sheet aluminium?

[@carneeki]

​@@DanSloteacomparing like for like sheet stock, steel is cheaper, but also steel is stronger so you could use a thinner sheet too. Light weight isn't really a concern for something like this that's fixed to a rack / desk.

[@DanSlotea]

@@carneeki I see your point. It's just that he likes aluminium too much. But milling the case from a solid block is pointless, unless the case is also a heat sink. I'd be happy with a 3d printed case any day.

[@carneeki]

@@DanSlotea machining the enclosure from solid is silly expensive. But if his heart is set on machining it, there's plenty of plastics that might do the job too. On the topic of plastics, you make a great point about 3d printing... Open source the files and have the user print an enclosure. It even design around a Hammond enclosure (or a similar off the shelf enclosure). Maybe even design the board to microatx or miniitx fork factors so an off the shelf media pc case could do the job :)

[@spencercpu1983]

Market survey I thought was the very first step to see potential demand and to see what people want or don't want in wifi router

[@kofeyh]

I love the comments. "I am making my own high end router" which is met by "why can't you make a really cheap one?".. which is a solved question. Keep doing what you're doing. Differentiating on a platform that has good thermals (a chunk of billet aluminium will do a better job than pressed alu/ steel any day of the week) and a good chipset/ setup will give it something worth the value. The cheap 2.5gbe (and now 10gbe) intel based units coming out of China can't really be competed with price wise, I am not sure why the heck people keep suggesting doing exactly what is already a very saturated market.

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! My thougts exactly. I was pitching to an investor yesterday and he asked some similar questions (to challenge me, which I like!). As in, "you know you can get some chips much cheaper?" And I responded: "Yes, but those chips are worse, have poor thermal management and will be unstable in any kind of non-ideal environments. It's not a compromise I'm willing to do, because in a race to the bottom, nobody wins." He seemed happy with my response :D

[@jtrentleonard]

Holy crap this is ambitious...and HARD. Good luck dude; I'll be watching.

[@tomazzaman]

Thanks! Appreciate the kind words of encouragement!

[@felixgo9867]

My favorite part of the video (the first of yours I see) is the whole process of getting into the market from an idea. I'll need to catch up on any previous videos you made for this but this one was enough for me to subscribe. Thanks.

[@VexedFrog]

Scope creep would be my biggest issue with a project like this. Keep it simple but look to the future as well. If you could make it "modular" that would be very cool. Only need a router? Get the base unit. Need to add some wifi? Sit a radio module on top and plug it in. Need a server? We have one that matches the aesthetic and stacks with the rest of the hardware. All the extras could come later, or not at all, but if you need a v2 to add on extra features, it becomes less appealing to ADD for the early adopters. Also, great content, looking forward to seeing hows this comes along!

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! And indeed, we just had a meeting yesterday around this very topic, how to make it modular, so that we can sell a "base unit" then upsell modules (we were talking about thread, but applies to anything that can be plugged into an M.2 or mPCIe slot).

[@stevefxp]

Good luck with your journey. I will be watching and commenting. So first question...why an ARM processor? It's my understanding that ARM does not support all the security standards as X86 does. Won't that make running OPNsense a but of a challenge?

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! If you don't mind, a lot of people have been asking this same thing so I ought to explain it in a separate video - stay tuned! And Merry Christmas!

[@GerhardMack]

The device in the segment to beat is the R86S G2 which I loved for it's 2x 10gb SFP ports and the 3x 2.5gb ethernet. It is what I currently use for pfSense but I would happily replace it with something better.

[@tomazzaman]

Honestly, I'm not trying to beat R86S G2. Or any other device, for that matter. I want to make something great that people will be involved in the creation of, hopefully pass on as much knowledge as possible in the process, offer great support once it's done and sell enough to be able to build an ecosystem of other products around it. Ambitious, I know. 😅

[@john_elliott]

Have you gotten to test it with any CPU-intense things like connection tracking or WireGuard? I'm curious what kind of throughput you get with NAT also.

[@GerhardMack]

@@john_elliott I am not even sure how I would go about running throughput tests. If I do a speedtest_net it shows up 913up/932 down. Fast_com shows 1gbps down / 910 up. Although fast used iip6 so not my NAT. But that's just my 1 gbps down / 950 up pppoe fiber internet. I only have 10gbps devices on my local VLAN and everything on the other VLANs runs at 1 gbps. I do know it is noticeably faster than the Deskpro with a 2x 10gbpc card it replaced. I mainly did it because the R86S uses less power so the UPS downstairs struggles less during an outage and also the smaller size helped as well since my landlord would not appreciate me bolting a second rack to the wall downstairs.

[@FvanBal]

If you're milling from a block of aluminium, consider melting the waste to cast new blocks to mill from.

[@tomazzaman]

Of course! Sister owns an aluminum foundry, so that’s actually very easy for me! :)

[@mikeydk]

In the design of the case, are you also considering how it will fit into a 19" rack? Either with it sitting on a shelf, or making some extra threaded holes for attaching some kind of mounts for it to be able to sit in a rack?

[@tomazzaman]

Yes, considering three options: fit it in a shelf, make rack ears or make a special mount. No decision yet, but will update here once we explore further.

[@mp5neo]

Other than the ARM processor, you are basically remaking an DEC750 from OPNsense - it would certainly be interesting to see if you can hit a lower price point while still maintaining similar routing capability.

[@tomazzaman]

Challenge accepted. 💪

[@OdyseeEnjoyer]

Why sticking to ARM and 10-gig twisted pair? SFP+ could be a lot more flexible and cheap to get, while being open to using other architectures could be useful

[@tomazzaman]

Agreed. Watch tomorrow's video ;)

[@somefloridian8992]

Hey! Huge fan of what you’re doing. Small note on the power supply. The very last one you reviewed is without a doubt the best option. Smaller would be nice, as you said, but frankly it’s already pretty small! I like it. Also I think you agree that having a little more wattage than you need is better than the alternative. Not enough power. Side note, I think the cnc aluminum case is so cool!!!!

[@perrinlora6488]

Can confirm the algorithm has taken me out of chronological order 😄 first I see you hacking your ISP provided router and next things are escalating dramatically to designing a router from the ground up. You've got me hooked and I can't wait to see what comes next. Buon anno or Srečno novo leto

[@tomazzaman]

Hvala! Happy new year to you as well!

[@sedatmehmed4371]

Do you really need to make the case out of a single block of solid aluminium? I think sheet metal would be a lot cheaper or if you are really fixated on solid aluminium - just make all sides from different pieces rather than carving a single solid piece

[@k.hussain360]

The design of the case absolutely fantastic, one of the big criticisms I have with modern network routers is that the ports are never all the at the back of the device, they always have power at the back and network ports at the front. I understand why this is the case, as most network devices are designed to live in racks where cable access from the front is preferred. However for a power user who doesn't put everything into a cabinet it is incredibly frustrating. Look forward to seeing how this project develops.

[@tomazzaman]

Thanks for the feedback - it's more valuable thank you think (regarding the final design). Will share more soon!

[@k.hussain360]

@@tomazzaman you're welcome, I'm glad I was able to help.

[@viaujoc]

I think that the chassis mounting options should not be underestimated. Please make a chassis that will have optional hardware kits for rack-mounting and wall-mounting it. The rack-mounting option should present all the network ports and status lights on the front to be very useful and be more attractive to buyers.

[@tomazzaman]

Yep, rack-mounting option is a must for myself as well!

[@fpb3rd]

Glad this found its way into recommended videos, looking forward to the series

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! And welcome aboard!

[@lesdmark]

If you hollow cast the case it would reduce the machining cost greatly and getting aluminum cast is not as hard as you might think.

[@tomazzaman]

Yep, fun fact, I actually grew up near an aluminium foundry - my dad owned one!

[@RealEricB]

Wait, hold up, allow me to make a suggestion. You should NOT do 10G as I believe 100G is going to overstep 10G. A QSFP28 port has the same signaling to support a single 100G, 50G, 40G AND 10G and all you need is whatever transceiver for whatever you want to do. The only thing that you may not yet be able to do is PHY for copper connectivity on a QSFP28 port but you could use an FPGA to kind of force the ability to install a SFP+ 10G PHY into the QSFP28 port with a physical port adapter. A QSFP28 port can support 25Gx4, 50Gx2, 40Gx2, 10Gx4 already. Also this could totally justify expense by basically being the be all end all home router.

[@TokeAboutIt]

Excited to see / hear what features you’re planning to bring to the router other than the hardware itself!

[@MichaelRobertLawrenceITsec]

Sheat steal cases are often , stamped then folded, should be able to make sheat stamped Aluminum? Cases... Sure the dies cost more... however you could stamp dozens of cases for price of custom milling a case.

[@kamui30]

Ah a new channel to closely watch in youtube! Interesting, thank you in advance for your hardwork and great content for tinkerer

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! And welcome on board!

[@ErkinOrdulu]

I appreciate your work and want to see how the process will go. But I believe you should give the option to buy your product as PCB only. Because I don’t like metal case products, I find it very easy to scratch or damage something else with it. I can 3d print the case or figure out another solution if you can’t provide a plastic one.

[@tomazzaman]

Check my latest video and be pleasantly suprised:)

[@stephanszarafinski9001]

Allthough I find it really cool and amazing what you do here, wouldn’t it be easier to buy a mikrotik router and put your own os onto it? Or just use it with their os?

[@tomazzaman]

Now where would be any fun in that? 🤣

[@stephanszarafinski9001]

@@tomazzaman You have a good point there :)

[@loldocks0]

could you have 3 different products at different price points? 10gbpE is overkill for me and i wonder if you could have cheaper options.

[@teguh.hofstee]

You could also flat pack the case (like the FormD T1 does for small form factor PCs) which means your stock material can be flat sheets that you screw together.

[@justingedge1384]

Nice to see passion for a product. Regarding case- my request would be option to add rack-mount 'ears'. Keep a nice looking case... but make an optional kit to enable rack mounting with rest of professional gear.

[@GeekGarageDK]

Just subbed to the channel. i would love to see more content about the development and especially the business side of things. I currently have a great job, i love what i do developing software robots, but with that said I've always been a tinker and love to 3D design, programming and such, but I've never really found a channel that can keep my interest regarding the business side of things on how to launch a product and get the company side of things going. So keep it up and make more videos in the same style, because they got my attention!

[@MTS_IT]

This is a cool idea, however, Mini PC firewall router 3 LAN 2.5GbE 10Gig SFP+, 16GB RAM, 128GB Storage, Wifi 6, costs 320€ so ... yeah.... (it has intel cpu - N6100 (i think) that does not even use that much energy)... Anyway, good luck (i had similar idea, but in the end i just bought micro firewall appliance) edit: and install ProxMox on it with 2 OpnSense VM's, and 1xPiHole VM - it works perfectly

[@bubaks2]

Impressive task. Good luck. Will be rooting for you.

[@zxljmvvmmf3024]

So regarding the alu case, yes I also like it more but for me it's not a must have - might be a idea to have two options, one with alu case and one with a plastic case (printable maybe?)

[@tomazzaman]

Yep, make sure to watch my latest video in which I address exactly that!

[@wadoocx]

Dont got much knowledge regarding CNC or product making, but wouldnt it be much cheaper to use aluminum sheets for the case?

[@tomazzaman]

Yes, it would. Working on it! :)

[@Sloggett1000]

Love this type of content, the concept of making your own router is awesome and watching your journey is amazing!

[@tomazzaman]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@Isaac-X113]

You got my sub as I was looking at building something similar. A 10gbit managed switch by anyone reasonable is already an insane cost. I look forward to building parts of this project.

[@tomazzaman]

Welcome on board! 🙌

[@broggl]

wouldn't you just make the case into 6 pieces, the 4 sides and top and bottom. Make the seams invisible or integrate then into the design?

[@tomazzaman]

Yes, exactly what I'm working on now. Will present solutions once they are finalized.

[@woundedmonk1884]

You could look at using aluminium extrusions to make the case. Like a hammond enclosure.

[@VenturiLife]

Make the case from ally plate, it won't be monolithic but would be orders of magnitude cheaper.

[@timramich]

You should make it with SFP+ ports by default. 10 gig over twisted pair is not the future. Its failure is why we have 2.5 and 5 gigabit Ethernet. People could always use an adapter if they'd want RJ45.

[@guycxz]

On the subject of motherboards. How about something similar to those used in mini PCs or laptops? They run X86-64 processors which should offer good software compatibility and can be fit into a very small case(in the case of the HP 600G5 mini PC 177x175x34 mm or about a litre). This does require an external adapter, but with USB C being able to deliver in excess of 100W there should be many compact options. There should be more than enough PCIE lanes for a 10 gig expansion card, though I expect there would be a challenge in making it physically fit and finding a way to connect it compactly if you use an off the shelf board.

[@tomazzaman]

If I focus on an x86 platform, I'm competing with PCs (to a degree), of which there are thousands (both models and manufacturers). On the other hand, nobody made a router that's ARM-based, open-source, well documented and looks good. 😅

[@sethlin01]

My following comment is not to stop you from doing amazing work and designing your own, I am genuinely curious. Just found this channel and love the unique content! Is there a reason that mini PC already existing today do not already accomplish what you need for DYI router? There are 2 that I am looking at for when I create my own router that meet the requirements of 2 x 10gb (both also have at least 3 x 2.5gb as well) for about $300-450

[@AaronHarper]

Solid content. I will be binge watching the entire series.

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you!

[@tomaxsas]

MIght want to look at Minisforum MS-01, not arm based, but a beast

[@enitalp]

I will follow your videos, as I intend to follow you (I'm less advanced than you in my project)with my custom software and hardware for home theater. Good luck.

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! Welcome aboard!

[@elfhelmp]

I currently own Mikrotik RB5009 and a 2.5G 5 port switch, but I would gladly replace them with your unit, for the right price. I don't care about the aesthetics of it, it can be made from 3D printed cheap plastic if it brings down the costs. Make the SBC, add different cases as add-ons. Whoever wants CNC aluminium, pays extra.

[@tomazzaman]

Yep. In fact, I'm announing two versions in tomorrow's video: one in CNC-milled alu, and the other in sheet metal enclosure.

[@PaulBunkey]

Why not extruded aluminium? Mold is expensive, but after that everything is very cheap. Make a rectangular "tube", slide the pcb in with plastic/metal caps.

[@gabrielctr]

Instead of cutting and bending metal sheets like several people suggested, you could take a look at stamping them for a cleaner look 😊

[@dreamingflurry2729]

Nice, will that have integrated WLAN? I mean I am a fan of regular old cables (LAN!), I after all wired up my own place (apartment) before moving in with a network access-point/network-socket (well: 2 of them!) in every room (except for the bathroom - I don't see the need to have access to LAN in the shower after all)...still, for phones and tablets WLAN is important...why am I asking: Aluminium (that case is aluminium - right?) can't be that great for signal-strength!

[@lm6036]

How do you plan to achieve true 10Gbit throughput with a quadcore 1.6 ghz arm processor? Ubiquiti uses Quad-core ARM® Cortex®-A57 at 1.7 GHz in their new Gateway pro (priced at 460) and even with their highly optimized software they can only do 10gbit on one interface witouth any kind if additional features enabled such ids/ips on that interface.

[@michael_the_chef]

I think the same about that, no chance with arm, i am using a ryzen 5 5600g as a server, even with a good 10gbit card there is a lot of cpu load, imaging doing some routing, filtering , ids ips, qos or what ever on top of that, on a arm chip is crazy 😂 but i like the idea, maybe it is possible with highly optimised software....

[@tomazzaman]

It's not just about the cores and frequency. NXP processor that we plan to use has a separate hardware optimized for routing and has two 10Gb interfaces built in. Think NVENC chip on graphics cards for encoding video compared to general purpose CPU. Much faster, because it's optimized for that one purpose. There will be a video about the CPU specifically sometime early next year and hopefully answer all your concerns.

[@lm6036]

@@tomazzaman Ah that makes sense! So in essence similar to switches it has dedicated hardware acceleration for networking? Cool!

[@ilovefoss]

This is motivational ! Thanks for documenting and sharing this journey with us. It is super useful.

[@endresbielefeldt2050]

maybe i am a little late but i come from manufacturing. have you thought about say 4-5 mm Aluminum Sheet metal? if you are ok with a radius, you could have those casings done for about 20-25 Euros easily. (the galvanisation not included, however) personally, if you were to have the corners laserwelded, you would have an amazing product with a fraction of the costs!

[@tomazzaman]

Yep, already spoke with a metallurgy shop that specializes in sheet metal. I have nothing concrete yet, but things are moving forward behind the scenes!

[@sparadonja]

I must say: great video. And I got the message. 🤫

[@ivosarak959]

Rdma support is a must and being as close to vanilla linux/bsd will reduce software side of cost.

[@myvideos2619]

GOOD stuff man, I might just have to find one. Keep up the good work.

[@IT10T]

this guy is so capable of saving 50 bucks a unit and making it blue himself

[@Trainguyrom]

I have my own idea for a hardware product that I almost feel like I could push to market, so ill be watching this series with great interest

[@PhantomBlank]

Instead of cnc a box that big you could have it laser cut, bent and use rivets/screws to create a premium look for a fraction of the price.

[@tomazzaman]

Yep, exploring a bunch of options around the case.

[@dreamingflurry2729]

Quite strange that you have me interested in this, but frankly it's intriguing, despite the fact that I usually use of the shelf components in my network (I have wired up this place before moving in with network-sockets in every room (made with keystone-modules on both ends, so I made my own cables etc.) except for the bathroom...still, this stuff (making your own hardware!) is very interesting! I'll watch more of this! Just put you on my list of channels to watch and gave this video a thumbs up!

[@tomazzaman]

Thank you! And welcome on board! A lot has already happened and I'm working on an update video, likely to come out next week (or worst case, a week after).

[@2u263]

Very interesting Tomaz, although i'm not a product developer. Started watch this video because of my interest in routing as a security function and i love DIY, so thank you for such an exciting process. 👍👍👍👍👍

[@tomazzaman]

Great to hear! Thank you!

[@Daniel15au]

You may want to look at mini PCs with 10Gbps connectivity (like some versions of the Gowin R86S) for inspiration. They manufacture their own motherboards though.

[@ikemkrueger]

I don't get why you're so keen to use an aluminium case. You can get an as shiny and polished asb-platsic case for way cheaper. And you won't run into problems with radio signals.

[@tomazzaman]

It's a pet peeve of mine, I guess. I love high-quality enclosures. Plus aluminium. 75% of it still in use today. So, better for the planet.

[@1NIGHTMAREGAMER]

if im correct you can 3dprint metals like aluminium

[@ovDarkness]

Yes. At a price of around 10EUR/cm³

[@RobSchofield]

Excellent! That was just theright balance. Would like a vid on business plan, and finance plan as you suggest.

[@FlaxTheSeedOne]

Why not grab an off the shelf 1U chassis, if you are using itx anyway? That way you can also fit an internal flex ATX psu, and have some space for PCIe or Storage devices. Also One does not need to bother with getting it racked.

[@tomazzaman]

We're not using mITX, due to the feedback of my subscribers, A LOT has changed, so you might want to check my pricing video :)

[@AlGritzmacher]

You need to consider aluminum extrusions for your case.

[@tomazzaman]

Yup, am considering everything at this point. Thanks!

[@MarcoBrieden]

I would love to have a proper FOSS router! While I might overspend on one with a fancy case, I would really appreciate an option with a cheaper plastic case to bring the price down.

[@tomazzaman]

In that case, make sure to watch tomorrow's video ;)

[@xenonPT]

Great video, just 2 small tips, try to cut/control the breathing noise that you make at the end of each sentence and try to show a bit more emotion on your face and voice, the old idea of thinking you are talking to a friend instead of a camera.

[@alexandercurl]

Probably a best case in both ways, to sell the unit without the case, and get a community, or even you a gerber files so people can print their cases for it, so that also can cut some costs. I know aluminium looks really really cool, but you know, cost is everything basically. Probably you thought this already, I would really like to see this coming, affordable, open source router. Please consider this an option as well.

[@tomazzaman]

Fun fact; I'm literally just finishing a script for the video in which I explain exactly the same thing! 💪😅

[@alexandercurl]

@@tomazzaman Amazing! Literally can't wait! Wish the best, if this going to happen, count on me one of the pre-orderers! :D

[@Flamestryke-TV]

I am just starting my journey into the 10Gbit networking scope and I wanted to know, will the routers you produce or plan to produce work globally. I live in Canada and like you I would like to use my own router not the Internet providers ones. I wish you the best of luck on this and please if you can answer I would love it.

[@ClemFi]

Please find a cheaper option for the case. Multiple aluminum panel, or folded panels. 150€ is crazy for a case. I currently run a custom router made from a topton N6005 which has 6x2.5G and with 16GB ram and storage costed about 500€ and has a nice metal case

[@OctagonalSquare]

This is awesome, but are there any places you can even make use of this? Like, the highest speed I’ve seen sold in most places is 1 Gb and most of the time you don’t even actually get that because the wiring is outdated in most cities

[@tomazzaman]

For me personally, I need it internally, meaning I can connect my Mac Studio and my home server with 10Gb so that I can work on large files directly off the server.

[@Cynyr]

i'm going to be very interested to see what ARM cpu you go for that has both dual 10gb links, and enough CPU grunt to do packet inspection on a 10gb bi-directional streams.

[@1NIGHTMAREGAMER]

" Router " WiFi router ?? Like 2.4ghz and 5ghz capable ?

[@jenialherdianto292]

Nice sir. Have you considered about UI for your router? Firmware maybe based on OoenWrt & UI like Winbox (standalone) not web GUI

[@vip_bimmervip_bimmer8033]

I would consider a high-end ARM chip such as the RK3588 or S to save some money.

[@faigelable]

I hope your design sensibilities lead you to stick with the CNC body. Even if a lot of people in the comments wouldn’t mind folded sheet aluminium or even plastic for the financially sound outcome, I’d rather the CNC body (cause it’s just plain gorgeous and I’m a sucker for the design part of product design).

[@tomazzaman]

In that case, you'll be happy to learn that we plan two versions. CNC body for those of us who value that kind of look and sheet metal for those who'd rather save a buck. :)