Chopin and Beethoven are filled with hidden meanings (ft. Logan Skelton)

0:00 Chopin's strange 2nd Scherzo
2:25 Foreshadowing in Chopin op. 49 & 61
3:34 Analyzing Owen's 'Dulce et Decorum est'
8:16 Beethoven's puzzling Sonata op. 110
Logan Skelton is a concert pianist, composer, and the Arthur F. Thurnau Professor of Music at the University of Michigan: smtd.umich.edu/profiles/logan...
John Biguenet is an author, playwright, and Professor Emeritus at Loyola University New Orleans: cas.loyno.edu/english/bios/joh...
Wilfred Owen's 'Dulce et Decorum est': www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
Produced by Ben Laude
For Sasha
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[@radudeATL]

This is the kind of content I would gladly pay for.

[@benr7882]

They so much content like this. It is all so worth it

[@beseemescavanger1403]

Well you can ...

[@radudeATL]

@@beseemescavanger1403 You right 🤣

[@fifibg]

@@beseemescavanger1403where and how

[@supasayajinsongoku4464]

Slightly unrelated but whats the most beautiful piece youve heard this month or even this year And then whats the most relentless, driving piece youve heard this month

[@nancyandcortaz]

I have no words. This is priceless. The poem and the deeper meaning and revelations... my heart is literally hurting. I want to see my music like this also. Thank you SO much for posting.

[@tectorgorch8698]

Sir, this is one of the most brilliant things I have ever heard about poetry or music.

[@nintendianajones64]

Please bring this guy back for more Chopin insights. He's absolutely brilliant.

[@CommonSwindler]

There is an immense profundity to this that’s as embracing as sunshine.

[@sonetto104delpetrarca8]

One of the most profound "lectures" on the interpretation of music through the inner - internal - world of the composer I've had the pleasure to come across in recent memory. Thank you Tonebase for bringing this deeply probing and contemplative sharing by Prof. Skelton.

[@benharmonics]

10:19 Mind. Blown. 11:21 MIND BLOWN EVEN MORE 😮🤯

[@OctopusContrapunctus]

I was here just for a fun technical analysis of beethoven, but what I got instead was a better and more fulfilling understanding of what means "reading music". Thank you

[@arabellazito3134]

I didn't want this to end! This was beautiful and so important to hear.

[@nancyreese80]

This is a stunning presentation. Thank you!

[@EnriqueGiliOrtiz]

So that is why Chopin said the opening triplets were key in his second scherzo. Great insights, thank you.

[@noisilence9398]

Prof is so cool. If I be serious, tonebase wow, you are taking the level of music theory tutorials so high with great content

[@supasayajinsongoku4464]

Slightly unrelated but whats the most beautiful piece youve heard this month or even this year And then whats the most relentless, driving piece youve heard this month

[@pavaomrazek]

I once played a Beethoven sonata op. 10 no 3 in D major. The entire first movement is based upon 4 NOTES: descending D-C#-B-A. He was such a genius that he composed 8 pages of sonata with 4 notes of material.

[@harrylampiris2554]

Am learning it now. My first Beethoven Sonata was opus 13. At 63 am heading backwards 😂

[@pavaomrazek]

@@harrylampiris2554 That's great! But, I wouldn't call it heading backwards because Beethoven was already very complex on his first sonata :D

[@shawnwilliamson9267]

I had to pause the video at 1:23, it just struck me. How could you make such a statement and revelation in only a minute. This guy is a genius

[@markbon5146]

After reading the comments I have found more meaning to life and music. I struggle every day to try and teach myself piano. This has opened my eyes. Thank you for sharing .

[@joshuakolpak8820]

I love Logan. I saw him perform a series of songs he wrote based on poems by his father and it was both gorgeous and moving.

[@truegret7778]

Beautiful words. I believe we do actually feel or understand the beauty of the greatness of works of these great composers, in a subliminal sort of way. In a sort of telepathic sense. What you said about the difference in Mozart and Beethoven is fascinating. The solders writings were so very powerful.

[@callmeqt1269]

I want more of this guy, even more so if he could do something involving Chopin on a deeper level than usual. Wonderful, entirely provoking video. Thank you.

[@omrit2]

op. 110 is sublime and my favorite sonata, but now I appreciate it even more.

[@eosborne6495]

I am often surprised to find that during the times in my life when I face serious moral questions or struggle to become a better person, the really salient lessons that bring me clarity are not from religion or philosophy, but from music. This is the kind of music lesson than can make you a better person.

[@apricotcookie4850]

Yes. From the ears, to the heart, to the soul.

[@DamaruInochi]

Wow! I want to learn from that man! Once again, tonebase, brilliant job in bringing such awesome material for all of us to learn and to absorb. One can listen to all of your material over and over again and learn something new. Thank you!

[@wobblyorbee279]

11:21 im speechless........ i literally have no words... the detail of all in music is just amazing

[@VallaMusic]

the final message defines the mature artist

[@user-xd2ox5yg5z]

What a perfect way to describe the "meaning" in music! I always felt it was true, that Beethoven was as much a Philosopher as he was a Musician. I just couldn't understand, how to explain it in words. You know the feeling of the presence of a deep thought in his music, but just can't put your finger on it. Thank you so very much for linking it to poetry! This just makes all the pieces fall into place.

[@VetsrisAuguste]

I’m left with so much to express, but no words sufficient to do so. That signal you picked up from your professor…you are transmitting its message loud and clear. Now I too have the desire to “study music like that”.

[@jtbasener8740]

Beautifully done! As a poet, composer and amateur pianist, I am deeply inspired by all that he had to say here. My deep thanks to you all for this.

[@alixmartin1978]

Wow this is an incredible amount of knowledge, wisdom and pure reflexion. I aspire deeply to have this aura later in my own life, thank you very much Logan!

[@supasayajinsongoku4464]

Slightly unrelated but whats the most beautiful piece youve heard this month or even this year And then whats the most relentless, driving piece youve heard this month

[@alixmartin1978]

@@supasayajinsongoku4464 I discovered recently a prelude by rachmaninov in G major, op.32 no 5, really great! And I also discover the works of Chick Corea, this is all great stuff!

[@rtreadwell7887]

Eloquent, absorbing and thought-provoking.

[@lloydlim]

Very helpful video. One of the fun things about a great composer is the little details they put in here and there that an ordinary composer wouldn’t think to do.

[@garygimmestad4272]

I loved this. I had similar revelations in grad school when I was encouraged by an advisor, Susan McClary, to explore literary criticism as a lens to music. And it took the scales from my eyes.

[@matttondr9282]

I just played this sonata and had no idea. This is truly incredible!!

[@cadriver2570]

More of this guy. Fantastic!

[@simondanielssonmusic]

This is the BEST video you've put out here yet.

[@jpage99999]

Ok now this has just blown me away. No words to express how thankful I am you posted this. Fantastic absolutely fantastic. Thank you 🙏🏻

[@philipu150]

Well-composed reflections on great composition. Thank you.

[@francobonanni3499]

Maestro you made me cry...and I thank you for this. Tears opened my eyes I look at the works of Chopin Beethoven in the same way you doI try to see what and how everything is united. I always asked the same question did the composer a complete consciousness in what and how ha wrote it.? I would like to follow your channel to learn what you teach us. Thank you so much ... Maestro.😊

[@nintendianajones64]

"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for with the piano alone he discovered everything." - Claude Debussy

[@bobbylarge7184]

Wow. This was so profound to me. It's so amazing that these legendary composers truly created with the deepest of intentions and understanding and that every day there is something new to discover about not only their compositions but the unlimited possibility of music as a whole.

[@Steve-bc8el]

What a brilliant man. Makes me proud to be a Michigan alumnus.

[@Dragunov1185]

I’ve never ever heard someone talk about music like this. Absolutely wonderful content

[@westlosangeleschildrenscho2619]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. I feel enriched and it is appreciated.

[@carlquestad9096]

logan skelton = 🐐

[@andre.vaz.pereira]

Loved this video!! The engangen always puzzled me and i think i didn't quite appreciate this sonata for that engangen in the beginning... I found it always too cheap for Beethoven. Thank you for opening our eyes to it! Beethoven in fact is never cheap... In relation to the Scherzo, if we see the Bbm as an intodutction to the Dd Major section it's very obviouse that the Dd M stands out as the main tonality of the Scherzo and not Bbm. Liszt once said about the openning that the main character enters "La maison des morts" (The house of the death) and that the openning tripets should "tombée" (Drop with a slight riatardando of expectation). Cyprien Katsaris has a great masterclass in french on this Scherzo. Logan Skelton's students must be very fortunate to have such a great mind to nurture their love for music. Keep up with this videos!!

[@dainpeters6943]

Absolutely beautiful! Wow.

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

As a child and even as a young adult, I was told to move my lips and never make a sound in choir class. And a teacher asked if it was too late to get my money back when I tried later on. So it was a sad joke when I told people I was born with two left ears. My life changed when I started to learn the piano last year. I might have two left ears, but I think I was also born with megacardia with a thin protective cover. This proved it. Merci.

[@polotrav3439]

Absolutely mind blowing. Thank you so much.

[@karenellis2098]

I wish this were longer! Reading paintings is the same. It’s about impossible to describe. This was lovely. Thank you!

[@DanielKRui]

Please if possible share more moments with this man!

[@MicheleAngeliniTenor]

One of the most astounding videos. Thank you for this.

[@animalsarebeautifulpeople3094]

I thank yunchan lim again for helping me discover this unique channel! 💚💙💜

[@andreajoybelle]

What an eloquent teacher -thank you for this

[@iampracticingpiano]

An interesting question to ponder: How many of these "connections" are planned by the composer and how many come as a natural consequence of musical exploration (and subconscious reflections) during the compositional process?

[@tonebasePiano]

My sense is that, for composers like Chopin, the compositional craft itself leads generates unintended connections between motives and key areas, and that they choose to capitalize on certain ones and develop them. I doubt Chopin set out thinking "okay, I'm going to write a piece based on these 4 notes, and they will also be the main key areas of the piece." It was probably more like - Chopin was noodling around with this B-flat minor triad, sketched some potential themes in related keys, and explored common-tone key relationships (A major shares a "C-sharp" with the D-flat triad), and all this information become considerations for Chopin as he finishes building the piece. And when he comes to pivotal phrases, like the final one, it just doesn't seem random that he keeps leaning on A (B- double-flat) and sinks into an F major chord. Surely he was aware that those chords had roles to play throughout the piece, and maybe he even enjoyed the idea that they were genetically related to the notes of the main theme. But, as Skelton says, even if it was all unconscious on Chopin's part... "it's there."

[@iampracticingpiano]

​@@tonebasePiano Well said--this is my sense, as well. The way the subconscious works on our "problems" in the background of our lives is a fascinating topic. It may speak to us in a quiet voice, but we often listen.

[@tfpp1]

@@iampracticingpiano Respectfully disagree. It may speak to us in a quiet voice, but the average person isn’t even aware of it, much less listen to it. The arts (and music in particular in this case), helps us to develop that part of our psyche, however; it helps us become better human beings.

[@mikesmovingimages]

As I have gown older (amateur pianist here) and s-l-o-w-l-y learned to read my poetry and music with both eyes, I sometimes get wishful, that one of my teachers when I was younger, a teenager or in college, would have said to me, "Mike...stop. Let's learn the music before you start playing it", to have been brought to the point Professor Skelton reached: "What's the purpose in this?" earlier in my life. But then I have to wonder: Would I have listened? Was I ready? I am thankful for all the understanding and insights I have gained so far. I'm sure there is much more - most if it! - yet to be discovered! This essay is deep and moving. Thank you so much for posting it. Things like this redeem the internet.

[@dzinypinydoroviny]

In a way, you could call the Op. 110 sonata a musical fractal.

[@tonebasePiano]

In the material this was cut from, Skelton mentions fractals.

[@DeflatingAtheism]

The grace notes become the diminution-of-the-diminution!

[@steveharlos4076]

The most enlightening 13 minutes of my day. Thanks for that!

[@sanderspoelstra8961]

One of the most profound music lectures I have ever seen. Please, if possible, let him create more videos!

[@SvetoslavSlavovPiano]

Life changine advice. More of this man analyzing pieces!

[@thraft]

Very inspiring teacher, it's a treasure to have one like that.

[@stevenc5526]

I play that scherzo. Tough piece, but so rewarding.

[@sirrobinhood3409]

You are a true artist and thinker Sir! The movie description was an awesome metaphor.

[@Justin.R.Ferris]

So delicate and beautiful. Waterworks at 6:11am

[@stefanbernhard2710]

This is interesting insight. My family and first teacher were friends with Dr. Skelton when growing up in New Orleans. Very philosophical musician

[@margarethansen7480]

Fantastic understanding that music and poetry are walking side by side, explaining our feelings and expressing Life!! Thank you very much, I loved that❤❤❤❤👏👏👏👏

[@Daniel_Ilyich]

This was so incredibly inspiring!

[@kazukiuchino1873]

Priceless. In 2023 and later, when it's flooded with both professional and amateur music composers and musicians, how many of them produce / perform music with this kind of mindset?

[@Deodar95]

oh wow that was beautiful man, tears just rolling down my face rn, this is why we do what we do 🎹 thank you for sharing this

[@Hajfena63]

Amazing and inspiring video. Thank you so much tonebase and Logan!

[@chamber1]

this is the best piano channel on youtube

[@thedesolatemusic]

This is beyond genius. Absolutely brilliant...

[@inotmark]

Also true of Bach, Wagner, Mahler etc. It is a consciously known and applied compositional technique.

[@pianistbrunodelorenzo]

Que vídeo extraordinário! O melhor que tonebase já postou

[@composerdoh]

Having the opening pitches outline the key structure/major tones of the piece to come is very Schenkerian. One gets the same thing in Schubert's "Erlking" to some extent. When I was learning Schenkerian analysis I remember at least one teacher commenting (I don't remember who) that Chopin and Schubert in particular fit very well with Schenker's theories and lent themselves to his system of analysis.

[@DanielKRui]

Utterly astounding 13 minute lecture by Logan Skelton! Such insight he shared, about so many different things (different pieces, and even different subjects!). I was totally moved by the emotion in Logan's eyes and voice at the end of his poem recitation and his concluding remarks about his gratefulness towards his old teacher and his quest for deeper meaning. Just watching his eyes and face as his fingers counted down the remaining beats @6:50, I could feel each of those silent iambs like punches to the heart. It is such a treasure to hear this man speak and teach. As he was grateful to Biguenet for his lessons 40 years ago, I am grateful to Logan for these precious 13 minutes.

[@timothyhoft]

The Arioso theme in op. 110 also seems to come from Bach's St. John Passion (Aria no. 58, the one that features the viola da Gamba). This makes sense because Beethoven's sonata sounds a lot like a sacred cantata.

[@sanderspoelstra8961]

He also used it in one of his cello sonatas

[@timothyhoft]

@@sanderspoelstra8961 That's right. I forgot about that.

[@Lucy-yc4bc]

what an absolutely fantastic video

[@yushen7492]

now that was amazing, and a pleasure to listen to you, thank you. there a few modern artists who compose music at the same level of development and depth, but it's often not recognised because they aren't in "classical" or "high" genre so it is not expected they would have it

[@gabatar5961]

My God! what a profound interview

[@nyc88s]

This is so so so illuminating!

[@nathanbugash8394]

I once got to take a masterclass with Dr. Skelton, and he was just incredible. He was my professor's teacher and I feel a lot of what I know about music is based around Logan's thinking. Thank you for what you bring to this art.

[@parentteachernight]

Thank you for this.

[@Awkman1]

Magnificent. Thank you.

[@Iluminacion32]

Absolutely divine and enlightening!

[@Archiekunst]

5:20 Small pedantic correction: The green sea is probably chlorine not mustard gas, which although was also used.

[@maurozanchetta648]

Wonderful video! I love Owen...

[@michaelbarker6460]

I would say "hidden meaning" can be interesting and fun to discover but also secondary to the music itself. It's like in the world of jazz where you hear an intricate rhythm and then are tempted to "figure it out" so you can play it properly. You break it down into its parts and make a kind of formula so you have a way of knowing if you're doing it right or wrong. From this vantage point you can compare it to other rhythms you've heard in other places and maybe even find some hidden meanings. However for someone that is fluent in the language of jazz the thing that is there front and center is the music itself. Everything you need to play it yourself is right there the moment its heard. The way you know if you're doing it right is if sounds right. This puts the focus on the music and not what can be extracted from the music in a formulaic or even clever way. If the reason for music is in the meaning that can be found within it then what's the point of the music? Words, syntax, symbols and concepts can make us feel things if used in the proper way. Music touches those feelings directly

[@thebeastisback1996]

Wow I love this.

[@brandonmacey964]

Beautiful

[@eleonoraformatoneeszczepan8807]

That was brilliant.

[@viphomeconcerts]

Might be the most useful music lesson I have ever had.

[@albertodelagarza9163]

Great vídeo!

[@davidesguevillas]

I really liked this one

[@bradyredding1964]

That was an amazing video. Makes me want to go study with him at umichigan

[@sianavassileva403]

Truly profound!

[@cablenelsonbabygrandpiano842]

Thank you very much!!!

[@DrStabkill]

As a student of composition this has always weighed so heavily on me. Once I started to see the way the great composers and the way they use the motivic relationships tying into the greater scheme of the piece I assumed this is what I should be able to do as a composer. This made composing incredible difficult for me for a very long time. As a young composer I simply couldn’t believe that I was unable to do this. And occasionally it worked but most of The compositions I wrote in that period were very un-organic and these elaborate structures never felt natural. Long story short found my own path eventually but realized in the end that I could not write like this and I was humbled most severely realizing that they - the great composers are in fact exceptional and beyond me. Anyways I enjoyed your video thanks.

[@r.i.p.volodya]

Very interesting thank you. I learned more about that poem in the 13mins of this vid than when we did it at school when I was a kid. My "teacher" knew nothing and taught us nothing. Shame on you Mr. Brown.

[@quaver1239]

Wow. Thank you, thank you.

[@bobbylovejoy]

On board - excellent.

[@carlosurbanejasilva1881]

Fascinating...

[@bifeldman]

Marvelous