Should storyboards be fully animated pieces?

[@PedroRuizReyes]

What happens is that they confuse the function of a storyboard. The storyboard must not have movement, it is static and must only have the text of the script that accompanies each scene and some camera direction, annotations, etc. If it has movement and a soundtrack to have the time of each scene, that is already an ANIMATIC.

[@NikolaNevenov86]

Yes if it's not on panel document but on a video with timing and audio it should be considered an animatic. Thus the question maybe should be, if a production should always demand an animatic or an animatic should be like the last stage before actual animation is started.

[@NikolaNevenov86]

@@joleh6077 Well honestly I think it's mainly a matter of demands of the pipeline, or what the person giving the money wants to see. I don't mind making an animatic with rough keys, audio and proper timing. The thing is that it will take more time than just one or two drawings per shot on a PDF document. But this also brings the issue of what Toniko pointed...of job creep but being paid the same. I see this as the main issue. You are asked to do the hob of 2 other people but being paid not x3 but x1.

[@SLV-Cr0w]

I agree. I think as long as the overall action and/or idea is conveyed visually to the audience or viewer and they understand it, then the storyboard has already served its purpose and anything beyond it is unneeded. If it's an animated storyboard, it's animatic, like you have stated.

[@espiritukon4294]

YES!

[@quilldev6280]

How were there only 4 replies.

[@wotwott2319]

In film school, I learned that these highly detailed storyboards are not storyboards, these are called animatics and they're used to block out the animation for the final product.

[@DreamingBlindly]

Huh my cousin who's a 3d animator called them "Animated storyboards" calling them a step between the storyboard and the full on animation.

[@Silversnakesinthesun]

@@DreamingBlindly probably because someone who works from 2D to 3D has different production needs than 2D to 2D.

[@chayadol]

To correct the misunderstanding Animatic is basically Storyboard + timing, some studio call it Laika but the idea is the same, You combine all the board into the time line. So you can separated them as the scene and gave them to Voice actor or animator (depend on the pipeline). No excess animation needed, we normally don't add more board for the locked animatic cos it'll mess up the timing. For example, It can have only 1-2 drawing of board for talking scene. We will know how long they talk from Animatic. Some of the example in the video especially Oliver Thomas and Kevin Milina can't even call Animatic anymore lol They basically Animated Board which water down version of finish animation which a lot of time board like this give other department a little more room to do anything and most of the time they have to fix the model proportion and cost them more time than it should be. Tbh most of the time we ignored them cos they interrupted the flow of our works.

[@hosvet_animation]

@@chayadol Woah are you saying Animated Boards actually cost time for the animators?

[@chayadol]

@@hosvet_animation Not really, most of the time we just ignored it, but it depend on the project and how much they want it to close to board. From my exp, For 2D show 85% of the time we have to fix proportion, adjust scene setting & design, and redo timing from those board, rarely we use board as it is. For 3D feature they just ignore them completely since everything in final production will be super different even the shot itself. However, it definitely cost time for storyboard artist to do it.

[@lunab541]

My deepest sympathies to anyone who has to do anything animation related in Photoshop

[@viniciusiutubiu]

me :D

[@lunab541]

@@viniciusiutubiu I'm so sorry 😔

[@viniciusiutubiu]

@@lunab541 😅 you can get used to it, however I do say Adobe is sucks and along years they've have fixed or made it better, it's really painful, but I feel comfortable because I can push my painting skill in certain situations

[@camdenbenesh1159]

@@viniciusiutubiu there's a animation plugin called AnimDessin2 that makes it easier

[@GlitchingDream]

Did that out of ignorance, it’s pretty much like trying to draw a fully detailed portrait with crayolas :,).

[@TheApoke]

I'm an animator so i like when the boards are really detailed. However I don't like that board artists are doing too much work and overworking themselves for the same pay. If they are expected to do more work they should get more pay

[@randomrandle9141]

Wait But don't boards being overly detailed restrict freedom of interpretation from animators?

[@TheApoke]

@@randomrandle9141 yeah that's true, but sometimes I just want more clear boards I can just follow. It means I have to think less, and if you try coming up with your own ideas a lot of they time they just tell you to do it over and follow the boards

[@jmhorange]

Personally I mean the boards shouldn't be so vague that you have to storyboard the shot when animating, but overly detailed boards kind of make an animator just an inbetweener.

[@espiritukon4294]

Yes!

[@ZentaBon]

@@randomrandle9141 the issue is that when people do this much work for this little pay it becomes an expectation rather than an exception.

[@JMarme]

On my first storyboard job the studio treated storyboards as animatics and I was expected to churn out 11 minute animatics weekly, with walking cycles,fully animated actions, 3d backgrounds and keeping the drawings in model because the client wouldn't receive them otherwise. The quality expected of my 4 person team was ridiculous. We worked everyday from 9 to 6 (not really we stayed every day overtime until 9-12 pm to reach the quality asked of us) and we never got paid overtime. One of my teammates accidentally set the standard of staying late because his father would pick him up late and my bosses thought he was working overtime but he was actually messing around on the computer until they picked him up, and they would scoff at the rest of the team for leaving at the normal exit hour. Also, the cartoons were 11 mins in the end, but all the scripts we're really long and required around 20-25 mins of animatic to completely tell the stories and the client refused to edit the scripts until they saw them animated, so we had to make the 20-25 mins and then they would trim them down in editing. Plus we had no direction, so the storyboard team was left to its own devices directing the show without credit in many areas, like character and environment design, coming up with ideas for the story, animating, 3D layout, etc. So much work thrown away... I quit and have been happily freelancing for the past 2 years. My mental and physical health was more important to me than a steady paycheck. The animation industry is tough, but at least I learned a lot from that terrible experience.

[@UrBestFriend99]

That sounds like an absolute nightmare. Glad you got out of it. I just graduated with an animation degree and seeing how shit the working hours are for animation studios is really making me rethink my career choice lol

[@plutonis6562]

Holy crap. So glad you got out of that situation and are in a better one now. Gracious....

[@JMarme]

@@UrBestFriend99 It was! I refused to work on anything related to storyboard for a while because I was so scarred by my first experience that I thought all animation jobs would be the same. Luckily I've run into some really good teams, with fair pay and without overworking me until burning out. If this is what you love and you're good at it. Give it an honest shot and if you start to notice that you're being exploited, say something and if your boss treats your complains as whining get out from there. There's a lot of people willing to take your place in the meat grinder and under no circumstances should you stay in a place where you're being exploited or disrespected (work or emotionally wise) no matter the cost. I quit my job in 2020 during the pandemic and I was very afraid I wouldn't make it on my own. My old bosses tried to contact me to return many times and I was worried because I hadn't found any new jobs, but I stuck to my guns and kept applying to different places until I finally found some way better options for me. A big part of this industry comes down to luck and connections, but I would rather do small jobs and be a little unstable than have a big stressful and overbearing job any day. You can do it!

[@JMarme]

@@plutonis6562 Thank you so much, I recommend to anyone to put their emotional,physical and mental well being in front of a paycheck. Also! Some of my coworkers didn't want to quit because we might be able to work on some Disney produced projects at some point. Disney owns a HUGE amount of properties, if you work in animation, chances are you're gonna end up working in something Disney related sooner or later (even if you don't live in the USA). Don't put Disney work on a pedestal hahah x)

[@plutonis6562]

@@JMarme You're most welcome, and absolutely. That's something I'm struggling with right now, actually -- I want to quit my job for the sake of my mental health, but am feeling guilty doing so. You're right, though. One's emotional, mental, and physical stability comes first. Oh yeah. They own way more than I think a lot of people realize. A lot of folks have stars in their eyes in regards to wanting to work for a big studio that has a lot of clout, but, honestly, if an artist finds happiness in a smaller establishment that treats its people well I'd rather they go with that. Heh. All the best to you!

[@ManuMercurial]

Love the video Niko! Having worked in outsourcing for Western animation, to now working on Anime, the contrast is VAST. Japanese directors send us doodles that sometimes are borderline unintelligible, but have enough information to give us animators 'freedom' to DO our job. Where in contrast, friends working as story artists tell me they basically ‘'do everybody else’s job before them”. And then I have animator friends who say they have No creative input in their scenes, they are basically doing problem solving for what was already in the 'storyboard'. I know this should make some happy, as it makes animators' work much easier AND gives directors more "control" (since it is still all preproduction.) But in reality all this is at the expense of the story artists, and leaving no creative input for the animators either, so I'm debating if this is truly the best way to go about it.. I have to say I don't have an answer either. I think what bothers me the most is the fact that no credit is given for wearing all these hats. And I hope the pay matches the amount of effort to make works like this happen in the coming years. Anyone who is defending this practice as it is, has no skin in the game, clearly. The job creep is real. Thanks for bringing attention to this topic. We HAVE to talk about it, and it has to be now!

[@amberbydreamsart5467]

As an animator, there's nothing I hate more than a producer or executive who's in love with the boards. One of the shows I was on was over-boarded, and they generally wanted the animators to pretty much recreate the board. There's nothing worse than seeing your coworkers push a pose or expression, make some beautiful keys, and get told to scrap it and just copy the board. It turns the art of animation into treating us as computers that make the boards move. The most fun I've had as an animator, by far, was on pre-school kids' shows where the boards were made to just show framing and almost nothing of the acting and we were told to ignore the board acting and make it look how we think it should feel. I don't know why it seems like only young kids' shows give that freedom to their animators, but it's so much fun for the crew and has created some great acting moments that would never have come up otherwise.

[@SpookyGhostpeppers]

As an animator myself, as long as the posing and staging is clear- animation over any parts of a boards isnt needed. Maybe you could do a tiny bit with keyframes to emphasises them, but I personally dont think boards need to be fully length features on their own. Do a lot of them look amazing? Yes! If I was running a studio would I want every single one to be like that, especially if we were on a tight schedule? Hell no. Storyboard artists shouldnt feel pressured to overextend themselves...but if they want to go that extra mile then they're free to! I just don't want fully animated boards to be the standard because that just places too high of expectations on a process thats basically supposed to be a proof of concept.

[@AngelCnderDreamer]

I agree! Some of this I was thinking as well.

[@hosvet_animation]

My only thought looking at animated boards was... what does this have to do with the final animation? Does this IMPROVE the final animation? The comments on this vid seem to suggest no actually, it limits and slows down animators. Who CARES if the board looks good for a board, you're not releasing the board!

[@mmmk5385]

Lauren Faust does a great interview with creative block where she talks about the problems of over animating boards. and how she would prefer well composed, and well thought out shots, with less panels, rather than over animated boards.

[@Madison__]

Bring back proper layout teams!

[@myfriendsnoopy]

Man Rise was incredible but when I saw those boards I was like… this should not be considered normal.

[@anastasialobanova4104]

At my first job at an animation studio I learned a clear distinction between a storyboard and an animatic. Storyboard is a "sequential art" and the main goal is to deliver a message while animatic focuses more on the transitions and editing, plus matching a sound sometimes. These are the two completely different jobs that require different amount of time and skill and were done by different people at that workplace (and very often the editing was done by the directors themselves).

[@unnurhrafnsdottir9424]

God, Rise of the TMNT deserved so much more. what an incredible high quality show. Kevin Molina was beyond thriving and Flying Bark was turning out actual animation Gold. Highly recommend. it's fantastic.

[@dirtiestharry6551]

In films, here in Korea, you board 1panel for each shots. That's it. If it's a long take, or many things happen in a single shot therefor requiring more context, you might write stuff like cont'd and draw more panels for that shot but normally it's 1panel for each shot. I don't know if animation peeps do this too but there's also a concept of "cut list" that the Director and DP makes based on script(sometimes storyboarder and scenarist join too). They basically make a list of shots needed to complete the film. So storyboarder has a reference to which the Director wants for each sequences or scenes and won't have to make the call for every single shot. Listening to what American animation storyboarders are expected to do, it's as if they are script writers, storyboaders, directors, DP rolled up into one. If it's a independent short film, sure why not. I've been a director writer storyboader too. But if this is expected on professional work it must be stressful.

[@kineographBOT]

I've noticed this definition slippage for some time now. I've always asked myself, aren't these animatics? It would seem a lot more is expected of a storyboard artist given what can be done quickly with digital programs. Your description of a storyboard work is what I was taught in school a decade ago.

[@stevie6332]

There needs to be a distinction between what's being produced. An animatic, or rough animation isn't a storyboard, and if storyboard artists are being expected to create to this standard outside of their actual role, then they should be paid accordingly for what they're producing, which is beyond storyboards, as well as being afforded the extra time, because expecting this level of work, on the schedule expected of storyboards is unreasonable.

[@pennylavendar6362]

Makes me think of old Stephen Silver talks where he talks about how all these different roles artists used to have just slowly kept turning into one person's job. But it seems like those problems are helped along by artists themselves.

[@Matthimeo]

I feel the the point of boards is for them to be disposable and iterative. If the boards are already basically fully animated there's pressure to make it final or risk wasting a ton of work. Also ties the hands of the animator to basically copy your work or make all the extra work you did useless. All in all, I like my board artists time to be spent making scenes clear and flowing nicely, rather then using their limited time on something I could do without.

[@LutherTaylor]

entertainment industry just sounds incredibly toxic at times that i imagine that it actually kills people's desire to do art. those boards from rise and alberto's work are incredible I've seen them but i do not class them as storyboards, farrrr from it. Albertos work for love death robots i'd class it as an animatic but even that is over kill. the only reason a story artist should do that is because he/she is the director, so they have the final say of it. no one should be getting hyped up from storyboards or animatics to the point people think it could be its own final thing to watch. sorry you guys are going through that Toniko. it sounds similar to the mess of promotional art getting touted as concept art back in the day.

[@MrRossT1]

Molina is a director too. He has directed some episodes of Rise of the TMNT

[@LutherTaylor]

@@MrRossT1 so then he is getting paid to do directing work with a directors wage to compensate i'd hope. he has the final say and hardly any rework to go into the boards, and if there is he is doing it of his own volition

[@MrRossT1]

@@LutherTaylor You get paid what you negotiate. You can be a board artist on some productions, come in freelance, and earn more than the show director. There's concept designers who earn $20K a week on some productions. I knew a studio owner who hated one board artist because he would empty out the alcohol in the hotel they put them up in, but he loved the board artist because they could get a job done within 5 days. Paid the artst $10K a week for that. You get what you negotiate.

[@NihongoWakannai]

@@MrRossT1 What a few superstars can accomplish isn't representative of the average worker in the industry

[@MrRossT1]

@@NihongoWakannai then they can stay average and not be surprised when no one calls them back for work.

[@loveemotion4080]

I think part of the “problem” is that everything is digital nowadays. When you storyboard, you can hit the play button right away and have a feel of what is going on in the scene you are boarding. It’s easy to add in more drawings to have a more accurate feeling of the film. When you storyboard, you are also doing the animatic at the same time. I’m not against that, it can be very useful. But if the industry has changed, then adjustments must be made in terms of payment for all the tasks storyboard artists cover nowadays. If many frames are demanded to get the feel of almost a finished animated scene, then payment for this extra work is deserved too. If shading and color are to be added, then this also must be payed for. Again, I’m ok with an average complete animated feeling of the boarded scenes, as long as its made simple and not over animated, like you said. I’m not a storyboard artist, but I’m an animator. I also like to add my own creativity and interpretation of the storyboard scene. If it’s already too animated, then there’s not much more that I can do... my job as an animator will consist only in tying down the storyboard drawings and maybe add one or two more extra frames. My task would become very boring. I also wonder if many storyboard artists overdo their task because they really miss hand drawn animation. 😉 Nowadays most animation are both 3D or rigged 2D animation. Not the same as hand drawn animation... I love hand drawn animation, its really my thing. I’m not happy doing any other kind of animation.

[@loveemotion4080]

I forgot to add that a very detailed animated storyboard for 3d productions might help to make the posing of the characters more expressive, less mechanic, as 3d posing tends to be. So, storyboarding for 3d animation may be priced in a special way for that extra useful feature from the storyboard artist.

[@tjangpricot5351]

I'm a college student considering to be a storyboard artist. When I looked at these almost fully animated boards, I almost feel discouraged since I'm not really good at animating and classes on storyboarding is only a few in my country. I just wanna say thank you for bringing this up since now I know that boards don't have to be that detailed and it really encourages me again to learn!

[@benjamingesinski9170]

I've sometimes thought if it's possible for there to be an animated series that was just a cleaned-up animatic. Like, if the movement was just the key poses without the inbetweens. I've seen some animatics, and there's something kind of neat about how they convey movement with some well made key-poses, like a mix between an animated series and a comic book. I think it would be interesting to see at least one show that was like an animatic.

[@TonikoPantoja]

i think its worth exploring!

[@coreyhughes379]

I know this is late but the Netflix show "Way of the Househusband" is pretty similar to what you're describing

[@aditi013]

If some board artists enjoy making animatic like that, they should do so. But the clients should not be expecting the same from us because those boards require years of skills and also, an eye for things which only those particular artists would have. All of us artist approach boards in our own way.

[@reneklassen]

There is also studios like fortiche that do detailed storyboards/animatics because they solve the problems earlier that way. its basically the foundation for the 3d work to come.

[@plutonis6562]

Preach it. My dad is a veteran board artist in the industry. I remember when he told me that a studio he was working for at the time was making him basically do animatics for the same pay and under the same time crunch (this was years ago and when the issue was just beginning). I was flabbergasted by it then and still am today, and the problem has only gotten worse since. While many of these plussed boards are beautiful and fun to watch (and basically teeter on being fully animated shorts), it also pains me to see them because I know that the artists behind them were working their arses off for no additional reward financially. If a strike needs to happen, if the people need to rise up, then let it be so, because the companies sure as hell don't care about the livelihood of their employees.

[@joaocardoletto]

This is a discussion that can be extended also to animation. I used to be enthusiastic about animating in Toonboom Harmony. Nowadays I see that steps like colouring, cleanup, comp it is all being piled on the animator's plate. With storyboard pro you can edit, add sound and create an full animatic. Instead of making life easier, the tools are being used to squeeze more work from the artists. It is a dangerous path.

[@madlad3414]

I recently just started college for animation and have aspirations of being a board artist one day. I hope by then things will stabilize and I (hopefully) won’t have to pull the load of an entire team with a single person’s pay

[@amberbydreamsart5467]

Best of luck in college!! The industry's been bad to its workers in various ways for decades, and bad studios aren't going to disappear overnight. Do your best to get your foot in the door when you're ready to work, and when you start getting in, /listen/ to everyone around you about what studios are like. Everyone works for many, many studios over time and largely are happy to talk pay and work conditions with other workers, you can learn pretty quickly what studios will treat you all right and what ones will wring you out to dry

[@Algezon]

That's what I was wondering about ever since we started our own storyboard training class. I thought it was a new thing that's been happening lately in the industry. I even did it on a storyboard I'm currently assigned to. So making a discussion about this is a real eye opener. Thanks for talking about it.

[@crushchr0nicles]

I think something about storyboarding that people misunderstand is that the quality of a storyboard isn't dictated by how animated it is, it's by how clear it is, or how creative the framing and composition is. It's about knowing how to use film techniques to tell the story in the most effective and creative way. Just like how amazing boarders might not be able to animate, some amazing animators might not know how to creat the best storyboards. Animating isn't superior to storyboarding, they're just two completely different jobs that should be allocated to the right people.

[@Deedz999]

Well-balanced perspective, I think. My impression is that this channel teaches one how to function within the industry. It's a team-heavy situation, so one should be mindful to build habits that support whatever team in which they've been placed. Fully animated boards are good if you're doing solo work and want to capture your intention I think, and can be useful if you suddenly have to shelve your work for a time.

[@bloopboop9320]

I've ran into this issue a few times where I've made an animatic/storyboard and then the animator will make a "storyboard" based off of my storyboard and it's literally just rough animation and post it online as a "storyboard". I think part of the issue is that when an animator gets a hold of a storyboard they try to make it function as an animation and how it will help them with their part of the production process so they will add in as many drawings as needed to save them time down the road. I need to emphasize that there is NOTHING WRONG with doing this, the issue is that people from the outside looking in are rarely aware that there were several passes at the storyboard before that "final animatic" and that that scene might have gone through several storyboard artists before the animator even got a pass at it. Again, there is nothing wrong with the animators making a super cool pass at the animatic to make it exactly how they plan on animating it; however, I think it should be emphasized that this is a "final pass" or if other people worked on it beforehand. It's kind of like if a screenplay was a collaboration of multiple writers and then the final writer who edits it then posts it as "an original screenplay by me". This leads people to believe that a single individual just "sat down and storyboarded 6,000 panels in a week" when in reality it might have been a total of 3-4 people who worked on the scene through different parts of development over the course of over a month or two (depending on how complicated the action scene is). Edit: Also, I totally agree with the notion of keeping your storyboard panel lower before going higher. Editors do have a lot of stuff to go through and it can make their job harder. Just to throw in another gripe that I have, I feel like recruiters tend to not really know what Storyboard Artists do and have a tendency to have no idea what to look for in storyboards. Every recruiter I've ever encountered always makes some insignificant critique on "wow, that one single individual panel out of 300 panels looks a little odd. Come back when you've fixed that ONE panel and make it look cleaner." However, send that same portfolio piece to an actual storyboard artist and they will say "Wow, this is SUUUPER clean. It doesn't really need to be this clean. Your editing, composition, and acting are all great.". I've NEVER gotten a job through a recruiter, but I have received plenty of jobs from sending my work to storyartists. I think recruiters send a false expectation to artists because they are used to seeing the final animatic and product and don't understand that 90% of storyboarding is editing, acting, and composition. Very little of it has to deal with clean-up. This poor expectation leads a lot of recruiters to simply say "Just make it more detailed." which sends artists down the wrong direction as to what to expect.

[@mist3995]

Hello! What you said about getting jobs through other storyboard artists was very interesting to me. How do you reach out to them?

[@hosvet_animation]

@@mist3995 Start your social media, do posts of your art but also just post in general to build your engagement, follow artists, don't dm people for opportunities, start building connections with other artists and people will find you.

[@jonhoops1]

Most prime-time animated shows in the US are sent to Korea or Taiwan for animation. The boards are essentially mini layouts. Before the computer boarding era the boards were much less detailed because you had a dept. of character layout artists to put everything on model and add acting poses. This has been subsumed into the production board role, I think only the Simpsons still has character layout. As an AD I always make an animatic for myself in SBPro just to make sure the board is working. On dialog driven shows this is especially important since we work to the scratch track and have to make sure the acting works. The board we deliver is actually a PDF which is set up to be easily used by editing to make the actual animatic and for shipping overseas. And as someone who has seen what sometimes comes back you can be sure we try to give the overseas studios as much info as possible.

[@firebug_05l61]

I can't imagine it's much fun if you're an animator and get handed these types of boards that have everything basically decided and you don't get much freedom

[@pokeface119]

100% Story boards need to be images with simple script. Less is actually more when it comes to this because the more you add the more detrimental it may become for someone else later down the line. (Within reason of course)

[@zh.angela]

yeah I'm going to start calling them previs because by what we've seen what previs animatics look like these "boards" are closer to that than what storyboards were made for in a production.

[@TealProjects]

If storyboards _are_ going to be fully animated pieces, then we'll need storyboards for _those_ storyboards, and if _they_ get fully animated, then we'll get _another_ storyboard for those as well, and if _they_ get fully animated, then the cycle repeats!

[@the_shortski6053]

I thought storyboarding and animated storyboards were separate things? I was told that storyboards was just plotting down on paper the rough idea. The "animated storyboards" are called Animatics that are used to see the movie before its actually there but was just putting the storyboard into the animatics. I didn't know that the storyboard artists had to fully animate Animatics.

[@FullMaika]

Animatics are simply storyboards (still images) edited into a timed video. There is usually NO animation in animatics, only the most important poses.

[@aMaritze]

The boards that are drawn up to that level are not storyboards anymore, they are animation keyframes. That's doing the animators job for them. As someone who has worked extensively as both an animator and stroryboard artist I can truthfully say that these 'keyframe' boards are a disservice to both fields. The board artist is massively overstepping his brief for all the reasons mentioned allready, and likely not getting paid for that much work. And the animator gets their creativity impinged and shackled to another artists interpretation of the scene. Many great board artists are moving toward this type of keyframing, and it is a huge problem. Stop it!

[@senior_sakuga]

Boarding is boarding, keep it simple. Simple and clear staging and action(s). There's a time and place for posing stuff out, but it should be within reason. Because if these people keep burning themselves out with these overly animated boards, and your shot gets dropped, then what? Some of those artists might think that if their boards are to that level that the higher ups can't possibly drop it. But they are under no obligation to keep the shot if they don't want it. The production pipeline is built for adaptation and collaboration; I agree with Toniko and just in general, this is a team effort people, you aren't a one man show anymore.

[@OtherwiseUknownMonkey]

i think a good thing to keep in mind sitll is:the more fun you have with animating your boards, the less the animators will have. so try not to have too much fun

[@spicydoodlesoup]

As someone who’s been accused of doing too much in boards and who also worked closely with Tyree Dillihay throughout my career… 1- basically I work as hard as the time I’m given. Board artists generally get paid more than revisionists, timers, and animators so if I’m given the time to add details, I feel I am getting compensated for wearing other hats and then some. 2- I work only as much to see if the scene works with timing, composition, and camera movement. Sometimes you don’t know an idea will work unless you see it. I try to work bare minimum to get the idea through to the next people in the process. 3- I usually work according to how skilled people after me are. If the animators are “bad” I put more details to compensate. But if they’re really good, I will send chicken scratch and will eagerly await how those artists will interpret my scribbles. 4- I try to respect everyone else I work with on what degree of details we should put into boards… I am competitive too, so I also try to stand out with solid work… But that’s if I respect my coworkers… I’m not gonna dumb down my work because another artist can’t animate when sitting in animation. 5- I only put enough work into something where I’m okay with it being redone or deleted.

[@hosvet_animation]

Never board what you wouldn't be okay throwing away and drawing again.

[@missoli]

storyboards are supposed to be static imo. some panning or light movement is ok, but if you already have lots of movement it's not even a storyboard at that point. it's an animatic. My biggest pet peeve is seeing storyboard artist job postings and they list "must be able to animate, photorealistic modeling texturing and coloring, 3D asset animation, etc etc like no, stoaryboard is a storyboard. you don't need any of that

[@macymartelli]

i appreciate this video so much. i’m a sophomore in college and i’ve been wanting to be a board artist for years.. and i’ve recently been seeing so many fully animated story boards and i’ve been feeling like maybe i’m not doing enough, but this video says everything i’m thinking !

[@RayfieldA]

I' ve been working as a storyboard artist for 26 years! And when I see animatic clips from artists like Kevin Molina-Ortiz, I feel So Small! 😅 God, knows I want to board like him!

[@Snapai]

I animated on a production once where all of the roles were shifted by one, which I am told was a east coast vs west coast studios thing (which has since diffused into the industry as role creep). The director did "thumbnails" (really the storyboard), the storyboard artists did the rough animation and layout, the layout artists did background painting, the animators were doing cleanup (and a little rigging). Most of the time there was finesse on timings and arcs we could add while "animating" to have any pride in our work (using the final rigs and putting the animation on model), but at least one or two shots, the storyboard artists had gone into such detail about animating the arcs & breakdowns of the shot that I had to remove most of their frames and animate it myself just to be able to make it through the scene without being bored to tears!

[@NikkiTheViolist]

The fully-animated storyboards aren't really storyboards. They're prototypes, and should be treated as prototypes. If someone fully animates a storyboard, I would hope they also add an actual storyboard along with their prototype.

[@concretebuilding]

My understanding of storyboards is that they're to convey shot language and the basic character movement, and that's about it, because the order of the STORY is what is being focused on. Cleaned-up boards are still boards, mind you. But once we get into drawing 3 or more different poses in the same shot, this is when it becomes rough animation. If you want to convey that in a storyboard, then use arrows.

[@jpolgar1]

Yo! Perfectly summarized and stated. I feel exactly the same. Great video essay, Toniko 🙌⭐️

[@gnowra]

I run a tiny studio with one other animator and we nearly always do relatively complex boards usually coloured and often we make animatics. The reason why is that tiny studios like us work on music videos and ads with shoe string budgets and ridiculous timelines so we often have to knock out a few tasks at one time. By colouring storyboards we get to try colour palettes without loosing a lot of time in additional concept stuff. The other reason is we do a lot of traditional animation stuff like stop motion and animation on paper meaning if we don’t carefully plan we will waste time we dont have….edit: but of course this is the whole point, in tiny studios we have to do everything so our jobs can’t creep more and we don’t really have to work with many extra people

[@RenaissanceGirl]

Wow! I never knew about this issue! Thanks for telling us about this! I'm definitely going to reevaluate whether I should become a storyboard artist or not. Also, OH MY GOSH! TRACY YARDLEY! 4:15

[@MrRossT1]

You are aware storyboarding is used for things outside of animation, right?

[@RenaissanceGirl]

@@MrRossT1 Yes. But I was considering doing storyboarding for animation as a potential professional career. Now I'm reconsidering that possibility.

[@MrRossT1]

@@RenaissanceGirl you get paid three times as much to do storyboards for advertising, and don't even need to animate the boards.

[@NihongoWakannai]

@@MrRossT1 Most people aren't really going into the entertainment industry for the money though. There are generally better avenues for that. A lot of people would just like to be able to work on cool projects without being abused and ground down to the bone.

[@MrRossT1]

@@NihongoWakannai if they have no consideration for finances, they should not apply at a commercial studio. if all they want to do is make projects, they can do that at home on their own time.

[@alyssabullock6421]

This and "AMVS" that are just still images always urked me (also "PMVs" with quality/detailed animation in them).

[@thefandomchild777]

Storyboards are something that helps you understand and flesh out how things are exactly gonna go. Wether you find it easier on yourself to draw a plain sketch scene/scenes or animate the basics with a clean outline on everything, is up to the you. If someone is making a show, and wants the storyboard to be as clear as possible for themselves or the team, let them fucking do that. It’s *_their_* show.

[@hosvet_animation]

As someone who tooth to tails my own productions using animatics as my storyboards, you've convinced me that over-animating storyboards is a bad idea for both wasting my own work on something I might have to throw out and for the future when I work with others. That said, if you're really feeling a creative choice when boarding, then do the extremes for it if you want.

[@BLAHBLAH1000shop]

I really appreciate this discussion and your video! I'm a new storyboard artist who landed a paid gig earlier this year. I feel like I keep a pretty level head when it comes to ego or competition, but I've definitely felt insecurities when seeing overly animated or detailed boards from others. It can get confusing when getting advice from board artists to be economic and flexible with your drawings only for these same people's portfolios to display the opposite. My takeaway from this discussion is to better consider the individual artist's intentions and ambitions before judging how it effects the greater animation workflow. Like you said, certain shots/sequences can speak out to artists on a personal level and intrinsically encourage more effort. It sucks to hear execs not putting in effort to understand the process and take people for granted, thankfully I haven't encountered that situation yet (at least in animation). So far I've been careful to always ask for feedback and have open discussions with directors/supervisors about the expectations and satisfaction of my boards. In industries with lack of communication, it's always worth the risk of over-communicating to avoid things slipping through the cracks.

[@dejanmilic352]

Good job explaining this.

[@alexpolonoe]

Thank you for making this clear, because I was kinda getting discouraged seeing these animated boards while trying to work on my own stuff!

[@Yensid951927]

Glad your's talking about this. I just started a storyboarding project.

[@theSleepyLamp]

I remember thinking to myself, seeing kevin molina's post on tmnt, " damn, that's a storyboard?" it was really animated, even for an animatic

[@dreaminsepsis2542]

with future storyboarding, i’m going occasionally to add 2 or 3 inbetweens keyframe to keyframe. i need more guidance for when to draw preemptive frames than just the next keyframe with no warning of when the movement starts and ends.

[@stigmoxart]

I've been thinking about this too. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with this!

[@jilliancrawford7577]

Thank you for this! This goes into the comment I made about common mistakes beginner storyboard artists make video; I think things like this can hinder what a storyboard artist can make. It's one thing to storyboard for the rough animation team to refine and it's another for the storyboarder to practically do all the rough animation themselves, especially if there's revision. I think overcomplicating the tasks and job creep can hurt what a storyboard artist can do. Yesterday's definition of sakuga becomes tomorrow's definition of the bare minimum standard and that isn't alwaysa good thing.

[@08wolfeyes]

The two functions of the Different versions shown in this video are different and have different names. The first, the still framed shots are storyboards so that everyone can see visually how a scene is going to be shot, for example, the actors, directors and even lighting as well as many others. Showing such thing as camera angles, how close or wide a shot may need to be and perhaps hinting at lighting. The second, the animated version, is called an Animatic and has a very different use. Not only does it show some of those things from the storyboard but it also helps work out the timing of a shot and the flow. It also gives the director and others good information as to whether a shot or scene is going to work well before spending a great deal of money on it, in effect, saving them money. It can also, in some cases, give an idea to the whole movie before they even make it. Yes, some changes may be needed but then that can happen with movies and it's important because they don't want to spend a great deal on it only to find things aren't working. On top of all that, it helps the VFX artists know how a shot will be, the best way to approach any effects that the movie may require and for the sound guys to get a better idea of how long a score may need to be per scene and the timing of sound FX etc. Each has its uses and are very helpful. Of course, this then would suggest the question, so should the artist just do one of those or both. It's not such an easy question to answer as it may seem because the artist has consistency to their work and so the same person working on both is very helpful. Not just because it keeps the same style but the artist, through doing a storyboard, gets to know the shot and so when it comes to animating, makes their lives a lot easier. They then have to focus on short animations that shows the flow and timing. I think such things as sound could be added by someone else who deals with that although the storyboard artist/ animator would need those sound to help with getting the timing right.

[@Jeshcaprints]

I am an illustrator working my first design job after graduating college. I work at an ad agency and we are being made to make a 5 minute animation. None of us are animators. But the way we are being made to make this animation basically is a complete animation as “an animatic”

[@Jeshcaprints]

I’m basically being taken advantage of since I’m salary and I easily spend 60 hours or more every week in the office.

[@Jeshcaprints]

We are expected to go “above” but it’s killing me

[@MrRossT1]

14:05 utilizing BLENDER in the boarding process, can easily match up to what Kevin does. A lot of the animatic techniques are classic layout techniques you can learn from Coloso. Stuff they still teach in South Korea.

[@dissonanceparadiddle]

Thank you so much for making this video!! I've been becoming more and more concerned over the years of this trend Becoming a standard. Your ideas for solutions are great and i hope the industry either tones it down or starts compensating artists correctly. It's like you said it's awesome to see people do this but it could never come at the price of people getting hurt burned out or underpaid. If it's something they want to do and they're being compensated I think it's fantastic but but at that point they shouldn't be called a storyboarder anymore or at least include all of the things that they are doing in the title because yeah it's getting ridiculous

[@t0orpid]

Rottmnt "storyboards" are just the most excellent, amazing, downright badass animation pieces AH I cant express it enough, its just ASTOUNDING 🤩

[@NightspeakerR]

Here is my thoughts on this, I think it is a better to have your Storyboards to be like a Animatic or static frame for each part so one it doesn't take time and to make sure you can rework on your work if your higher up planner decides to change a few frame looks as you said in one of your videos!

[@ocadstoryboardcircle9164]

Oh god thanks for this video, needed it right now

[@samtung]

Really great and thoughtful video, as always!

[@The00kelly00]

Oh, this brings up so many feelings. Toxic expectations are BS and usually displayed by bad/new leads/worse managers. When I animated I would get in at 8 and leave at 5. I'd get my work done and my stuff was well liked. I'd get attitude from the lead that I wasn't pulling my weight (again finished everything with no revs) and wanted me to stay later. This AH would come in at 12pm or 1pm and leave at 7. They didn't even put in a full day. There are some days I wanna rage quit, especially working in house. One silver lining to the pandemic was WFH. A total game changer and mental health saver.

[@SamuelBowns]

Very interesting topic indeed. As a professional storyboard artist for over a decade, I can say that sometimes we need to to polish some things a bit more- but, it's just sometimes. And on the opposite, many times we do things very rough and simple... So, I believe that there is not some universal resolution about that. I think that the real problem can be a client who expect these things all the time. Which is aboslutely not realistic.

[@partoon]

That's an interesting video. In TV 95% of board jobs expect you to deliver an animatic as well. For feature films though, it's a bit uncommon. I never had a director give notes on style or animation though, and I've worked as a board artist for many years. I guess it's about knowing how much you can do and if the demand is unreasonable make sure you communicate about it beforehand.

[@Shimamon27]

I never did storyboards, in my own animation I just stick to being rough and swift, because I am a one man team needing to do everything with a budget of potato and limited time 😅 But, this is good to know regardless, the industry is just getting more and more ridicules in what it expects artists to do, and I need to know all this prior to trying to make my way in with the limited capabilities I portray on my channel.

[@lukacoleman7283]

Honestley i think it depends on the projecty you work on as to whether or not this a good or a bad thing to do. it really depends on the complexity and how much info and reference client gives the board artistrs. I worked on a show that had a lot of dance numbers in the later half, and client gave us basically no choreography at all to reference, so we had to make it up on our own during the boarding process. This meant we basically had to have all the keyframes done since the animators had basically no reference footage to work with. The key point in working this way is to be allowed as much time as nessesary to do the board, and split the board between people. I was in a revisionist role for that show, so basically i was given the responsibilty to do all the clean up and extra little bits, so the lead board artist could have an easier time working on the meat of the performance. Lowkey tho, my lead for that show was like a machine, what would take me three weeks would take her one. I've never seen someone work so fast in my life...

[@patmarconett]

as a Bg designer in animation when boards are over drawn in the background it can really limit what we can design because directors will get attached to the sketch, even if its not the best solution for a shot.

[@iCookMe]

The whole working off hours and not reporting it affects the budget predictions for the next production. Lot to say about that and how it promotes crunch.

[@AlphaProto]

Those are pretty much animatics. The story boards I did were mostly one or two drawings with some camera directions drawn.

[@AnalogueAbsynth]

For animating I like simple boards as it gives me more room for creativity

[@MrBlack0950]

alot of this sounds like people forgetting what a story board is meant to be. Its meant to be a sketch of motion, a rough idea of what a script or screenplay might look like straight from the page, quick, dirty, but clean enough that the directors can make changes to get the feel they want before going to the animatic. Its the design draft of the story in visual form, not the draft of the motion and animation. Communicate the story in its simplest form before you make it fancy with motion and clean lines and stuff.

[@JH-pe3ro]

I really think the technology aspect of these jobs needs to be examined further. There's a lot of automation in play that's creating new kinds of animation jobs; when it was all traditional animation, every production artifact was either something you drew or painted, or an in-camera trick. A board artist had a defined role within that, and they weren't going to go film a whole animatic and turn that in - there was a threshold of physical expense and labor that set the boundaries where they were. But now the computer is "doing the driving" in nearly every respect, which makes it easy to cross over that line. As with a lot of things in art, there's a philosophy that guides what's taking place: for commercial purposes the point of having a large production with skilled animators, instead of just publishing a written script, is to make a more elaborate product with more layers of visible effort in it than their competitors. And when executives see storyboards that resemble animatics, they think, "wow, we got more production!" Except that's not really what took place, because the technology enabling it is just an ambient force; if the market as a whole shifts to use technology this way, there's no savings in terms of how much production has taken place *relative to competition* ; everyone is just hitting a different aesthetic standard by applying the same process, which results in different kinds of corners being cut when the production is in a crunch. And that defines the "eras" of animation as different technical processes came in: at first it did the same thing faster, and then the standards changed to match. It's Jevons paradox at work: the more efficiently we use a resource, the more of it we ultimately use. We have more animation than ever because animation itself is a cheaper process, but the animation jobs are also more complex than ever because they demand more concentrated effort from fewer people. You can kind of see what's looming on the horizon with AI art: if the AI can be given some boards and model sheets and be directed like a vendor studio(which it can't, yet - but "two papers down the line", maybe), then the whole production can be done even smaller, but the job increasingly becomes "do everything".

[@errorsansglitch208]

Its because of this that i used to confuse storyboards and animatics

[@JaydenEatmon]

Well sometimes storyboard artist will do this by choice like in tv productions the animation is outsourced to different countries and some animators who graduate college can't do animation they will choose the closest thing that is similar to the process I maybe Young but I know a lot about the industry of animation

[@thehiphoperazed2864]

Great upload as always thank you sir

[@SMBeech]

For me, the moment you include sound and specific timing it's not a storyboard anymore it's an animatic.

[@chayadol]

I feel like Fully Animated Storyboard (if wasn't force to do by higher up) is come out as the animator who want to do a cool animation but don't want to fill some in between, clean up or other works, but want to show off, basically half arsh about it. I guess its ok if studio outsource other cheap studio that they dun trust. So they decide to just make it super detail and give a those outsource studio a small room to mess things up. As animator, I like storyboard that slightly animated especially in the music sequence. it save my time especially for TV production that we have a super tight deadline, but for fully animated board, I feel like a wasted of time it either made animators feel uncomfortable/annoy or that animator just ignore those board completely. The board like what Oliver Thomas made would be an animator boring nightmare cos we got to do nothing or worst we have to fix all model and proportion with those detailed board, but I think in his case, they outsource studio that they have zero trust on. (so it has to be as much detail as possible to leave no error) However, it really show in Love Death Robot, that the overly animated board can mess animator up, as the face and lib sync in that episode are all over the place in that show they prolly just trace the board and send it off without fixing the lib sync. Super agree with the video the animation is a team afford. Storyboard artist should focus on their main job, telling story and make clear board for other department, and ask to themselves do this scene need animation this much or do tonal necessary for this shot? (Imagine scene that has two people casual talking but board artist did all lib sync and fully render light and shadow that would be super over kill) Doing fully animated board can come off like showing off and kinda give message to other department that you don't trust their skill to make a good works. Side note: I've working with Nickelodeon show and people who work on the storyboards on the show I've been working on is fantastic.

[@opinionatedbat2959]

As an animator I have no issues with boards being still images and posed out enough so that I know what’s going on and the props they are interacting with. It is completely unnecessary to have these boards almost fully animated. To be honest I prefer them to have less poses so that I can add my own creativity to the product by inventing some poses of my own. Not to mention the board artists are doing work that is extra and it’s just not fair to them.

[@junechevalier]

Fortiche used this kind of storyboard during the production of Arcane tbh

[@TonikoPantoja]

They also had a MUCH more flexible schedule

[@drmoonrat]

Animated Storyboards are "Animatics" which should be a separate level of the production after the Storyboards ate complete. History, Storyboards for animation have often been a lot more detailed, with animation directors working along side the artists to beat and block out the movements and timing. And these days now, is getting easier to turn take the story boards and add dialogue and temp tracks to get a better feel for the project. And when a Storyboard begins incorporating animation, that's an "animatic" and should be defined as such. Storyboard artists being tasked with animation, should be credited and compensated as animators, and animatics not being labeled as Storyboards.

[@Illogical.]

There are just different levels of storyboards. Some for rough outlines of the story, some for planning when what will happend, one for each individual move each frame, and several other levels of storyboard. Use whichever are helpful to you. I don't understand what the controversy is about. edit: Wait, is this just a video dedicated to how a certain word has changed or split into multiple meanings over time?

[@superdrawio5478]

I agree with you but I feel like even though it's less laborious doing an animatic that's practically animation is mentally easier than story-boarding and deciding what the important parts are. It's like over explaining vs trusting yourself to get the point across in a sentence. As someone less experienced in the industry I'd be more inclined to just make something that's practically keyframes rather than a real storyboard and hoping for the best.

[@RuviGaPo]

i struggle with this a lot. But I'm just a hobbyist so if I animate my boards it's not a big deal bc I'm not working w anyone. The closest to this issue i've gotten is ppl calling my animations animatics bc they don't know the difference. I don't blame them, ofc, terms are hard to learn. But ye this is.. A Lot. Fingers crossed for future jobs not being too toxic or demanding lol

[@Skitskl33]

As a board artist in tv animation for the past ten years, I found It honesty ends up hurting every other board artist and makes the position unsustainable since these studios take advantage of their employees any chance they can to get them to work more for less pay. A lot of artists used to call places like Dreamworks tv "the meat grinder" for that reason. Editors have also been miffed by this as well since you're essentially doing their job tool. But I would say the productions that treat the board artists like assembly line workers probably aren't good productions to work on anyway.

[@doro5013]

I'm here because piece of RotTMNT cutscene.

[@Izaac_Artist]

Very helpful thanks for the new vid I do have a question though I've recently been trying to get Blender on my Samsung Galaxy Book 2 but that hasn't been working at all and I'm not sure if you know I'd there are any places I can take it to so they can install it for me or I just have to completely get a new device if it comes down to that what are your recommendations I need a device that can support Kritan Peocreate, and of course Blender and how do I get grease pencil is it separate do I have to purchase or download it and are their any good tutorials on how to use it for 2d animations such as the ones you did?

[@JacobHalton]

Totally agree. If you're capable of doing the work of 3 people, you should be able to do that work, and get paid the salary of 3 people, or more!

[@sirlester3]

I wasn't aware of any controversy but why not? What difference does it make? I thought they already did animated storyboards or roughs anyway The pencil tests even? The flip book concept animates the movements anyway lol

[@DreamingBlindly]

Personally I'm not an animator nor a story board artist but even I know the difference between story boards and animations. In short story boards are supposed to be simple but conveys the intent to the animators and editors heck for all they care it can look like a toddler's drawing. As long as the intent or depiction of the idea is clear then it should be OK. And as for animations this is supposed to be where things lead to the most crucial step of everything since this is where the bulk of the work actually goes. But in the animation department there is a position called the "Story board animator" that refines the initially accepted story boards. This consists of mostly rough animations that convey the scene but when I say rough, it's rough AF like 1 to 5(at most) panels full of rough sketches, then after approval it is sent to the full animation team. This step can also be skipped but it's not suggested since you'd really reeeaaally want to solidify your idea before actually putting them through the most laborious part of the work since if you actually decide to scrap these scenes after animating then then off that's a lot of money down the drain.

[@romantra1311]

Storyboards should be static. Animatics on the other hand should essentially be moving boards with minimal animation to get the point across.

[@mclarenp1819]

overanimated storyboards will work only if YOU ARE THE LEAD OF WHOLE SHOW, you are so pro in EVERYTHING what close to animation, that you are making path for everything, when SHOW IS EXISTING BECAUSE OF YOU, thats only situation when it works

[@Foxdeceiver]

Storyboards and Animatics are two separate phases of production.

[@madjidchouarbi3921]

The problem comes from the lighting put on anime storyboards. For exemple, Miyazaki's e conte have a lot of indications about acting and actions. That's because Miyazaki was a animator prior to become a director and his board had to convey his own standards of animation to the entire crew, Hayao Miyazaki is well known for his obsession of control and this reflects in his panels. Plus, the actual form of japanese storyboard comes from Miyazaki and Takahata who, when started their careers as directors felt the old storyboard presentation designed by Disney with separated panels pined on board didn't longer suit their need : Contrary to the western way of producing animation, in Japan, there's no job as layout man, the animator bbeing in charge both of layout and animation.So, in order to make the job easier for the animator, the storyboard has to be very detailed with many poses and pretty accurate background drawings. The modern western animation industry, especially in tv shows, has a lot of influences from japanese tv shows, but, the producers and directors don't understand that the production pipeline in USA isn't the same that the japanese one and they ask the crew to work in a way that doesn't suit the process.