Too Much Nitrogen?

[@Fremdkoerper]

As always, you have the most valuable information of all the garden youtubers. :)

[@REDGardens]

Wow, thank you!

[@GrumblingGrognard]

Wonderful information and inspiration for those of us who are still stuck in the 9-5 grind...

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@menow7851]

You can easily save $300 a year just growing your own onions. If abundant crop, sell them to coworkers for cheaper than supermarkets. Make $$.

[@dougvogt8058]

I tried onions years ago with mixed results. Lately, I've been growing shallots, leeks and green onions. I've been thinking about trying bulb onions (from seed) again next year. They really are a staple in my diet. Thanks for the good information. Doug, NH, USA

[@REDGardens]

They are such an important crop for so many people, but also can be really tricky to grow.

[@doodah9561]

When I have too many onions I dehydrate the extras for onion powder.. The onion powder makes a nice additive to spice combinations that help prevent the onion powder from caking. "Cheers" from BC Canada.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks for the suggestion! I need to start making onion and garlic powder!

[@stevehatcher7700]

We dry, and grind to a powder, our extra green onions (spring onions/scallions). Put a bit of green onion powder in almost everything!

[@josephsaid6922]

What I like about you is you go into detail and really explain the problem. Canadian fan

[@REDGardens]

Ah, thanks! (fellow Canadian)

[@tahliel]

I love growing onions. This year we are in a new house, and the garden is much smaller. I'm growing the onions in a row on either side of my tomato plants to save space. So far it's been a great success. Onions are doing great, and the tomatoes have had a little ground shade and screening around the base protecting from the chickens and crows.

[@REDGardens]

Sounds like a nice setup.

[@eleanormerry1168]

I always have issues with onions and leek’s bolting. I never considered too much soil fertility being the cause. Your videos are extremely educational. Thank you.

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@lolivezen2389]

i love oignons, i love étaing ignons i love farming oignons, and you have very nice oignons, thankyou and good job!!!

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@dollyperry3020]

Great video! I look forward to your soil tests!

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@jtsloth]

I had a lot of splitting this year too and I amend in a similar way. I use a mix of my own kitchen scrap compost and worm castings, then I add sprouted seed meal and an organic nutrient blend and spread it. Maybe I'll skip the seed meal and see if I get less splitting next year.

[@REDGardens]

Will be useful to see if that will prevent the splitting. Interesting fertility mix 🙂

[@FarmforProfitUganda22]

Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us.

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@Southerngrl]

I tried onions in zone 9B it didn’t get very cold so I failed. They are not my favorite veg and I can see if you struggled it wasn’t only me. Love ur content always learn something.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks! A lot of people don't bother with onions, as it is a vegetable that you can easily and cheaply get from the shop.

[@FireflyOnTheMoon]

Fascinating that you didn't have a wet summer where so much of England was drenched - esp in the west.

[@VanderlyndenJengold]

Ireland is always pretty wet I thought? I'm in the middle of the UK. It's been quite a poor year for lots of vegetables. I lost a lot of onions. Still losing them now and then. Probably not ideally stored to be honest.

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, we had a fairly wet period earlier in the season, but since July there has been lower than typical rainfall, at least in this part of the Island.

[@heyy13]

Fascinating as always.

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@sc0tt500]

Very topical video. I spent a few hours yesterday slicing and freezing onions that had bolted. In my region of Australia we had an early heat wave coming out of winterthat I think caused every single onion plant to bolt. Last year I had only 1 or 2 plants bolt. I don't think my region is suited to onions!! Thanks for sharing.

[@R420-h3z]

Gday Scott where is the mt region? I am in central coastal qld and am about to harvest a decent (for me) crop of red onions

[@sc0tt500]

@@R420-h3z Woops typo. Was meant to read "my region" lol. I'm actually in Northern Rivers NSW and the onions were 1/2 a bed of hunter river brown and 1/2 of gladalan brown. Ended up with way more onions than needed but they won't store long due to bolting. Might just do a small planting next year with garlic.

[@R420-h3z]

@ thanks for your reply mate mine are saved seeds from an attempted cross between a brown early (gladalan or maybe Texas grano) and mill creek red. All the offspring are red, haven’t eaten any yet but none bolted. Been bloody dry here - good for finishing onions I guess

[@REDGardens]

Wow, having every single onion bolt is tough. Sounds like a tough season. Hope next year is better for you.

[@nialltormey]

How do you go about growing your onions from seed? I have had bad luck with onions from seed so far. when do you sow? do you start them off inside under lights or is a greenhouse enough? and when do you plant out? your results look fantastic so I would love to know how to get the same results. Please keep up the great work.

[@REDGardens]

I sowed them in February inside under lights, and planted them in early April, which seemed to be good timing for this climate, or at least the weather we ended up getting.

[@nialltormey]

@@REDGardens Thank you very much for the info. hopefully I have some luck next year.

[@Picabeba]

i ve been gardening for three years now and in the last two my onions split as yours did. I thought the problem was too much water, but it make sense it is too much nutrients, as the only year they didn t split was the first one, in my new no dig bed

[@REDGardens]

That is interesting you had splitting as well. It could be a combination of factors. I only highlighted the nitrogen, as it was a significant change this year, and the only thing that differentiated the gardens where it happened.

[@Picabeba]

@REDGardens and , i forgot to Say, my compost Is probably unbalanced on the nitrogen side, as i compost all my grass clippings (a lot ) and i have difficulties finding enough Browns to add to my pile

[@BalticHomesteaders]

Hi. Bruce. Great harvest there, far better than ours as I’ve previously mentioned I think we were hit with unending rain and warm temps so everything was hit with mildew. So having read the comments and anecdotal evidence I was quite intrigued as to what might be causing this issue of the splitting bulbs. Having read various papers none of them pointed the finger at nitrogen causing splitting, most said thick necks (presumably from the plant trying to form more leaves) or that the plant was more susceptible to disease or thrips. Additionally there was commentary on how difficult it is for onions to get all the N they need due to their shallow rooting and how inefficient of a process it is to get N to get into the onion plant, reports were between 50% at best down to 11% at worst which was quite an eye opener. There’s a comment further down from a guy who throws 30-30-30 about twice and he’s never had any splitting problems so I wonder if it’s more environmental?

[@REDGardens]

It is an interesting issue, with very little very useful information. I don't think the cause would be more environmental issues, such as dry spells or some other kind of stress, as we had fairly stable weather, and I had watered well during the few short drier periods. And the onions in all 5 gardens would have received the same environmental conditions, and watering. But only the onions in the two gardens where the amended compost was used had any significant splitting. It is the only variable that I can think of that could cause this.

[@robertjeffery3237]

These videos are very informative. It would be great if the knowledge gleaned from these videos would be put in book form. I'd bet they would sell very well on Amazon/Kindle.

[@REDGardens]

I'm thinking about it.

[@LizStansbridge]

No our onions bolted this year due to the weather. It's been a really bad growing year in SW Scotland, which has similar growing conditions to you. It was the weather.

[@REDGardens]

Sorry you had a bad crop. Our weather was pretty good all season.

[@Tomhohenadel]

My onions were great this year. Nice large bulbs that dry well and store till next May

[@REDGardens]

Nice!

[@p0ln]

I had a similar splitting issue with my outdoor garlic this year also. cloves were appearing where the leaves would split on top of the bulb, I was bewildered . Needless to say, the crop was bountiful, they were in high nutrient soil and I am based close to the curragh, not a million miles away. aside, no issue with any diseases on my alliums

[@REDGardens]

That is strange. Not sure I have experienced that with garlic.

[@Euripides_]

My onions completely failed this year and remained the size of seedlings once planted out. Very strange. (Sturon variety)

[@REDGardens]

That is strange

[@JoeFeser]

I had a heck of an issue because of lack of sun time. Onions are super picky, Were these northern or southern onions?

[@REDGardens]

The specification of norther or southern is not used here, so I don’t know. I suspect they are all northern, but don’t really know the difference.

[@noelkealey]

Love the content, looks like a great harvest despite some of the hurdles mentioned. I’ve seen people create great onion power with the outer skins which might be worth trying out with all the onions you have. Did you buy the powered fertiliser/amendments locally? Looking to add some organic fertilisers to mine and was wondering if you had recommendations.

[@REDGardens]

I used a range of things, mostly conventional soluble from the local farm supply company. The organic versions are far too expensive around here for this type of application.

[@kromphout]

Hi Bruce, I've been growing nodig onions from seed for 9 years. To me, it looks like you have Allium leaf miner infection, splitting bulbs are a typical symptom. Look for rows of white dots on the leaves from April onwards. I cover my plants with fleece untill May, and I spray 2 times with spinosad.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting possibility. I haven't seen any of these white dots or sign of infection from the leaf miner. Just checked the clips I took to eb sure. But something I need to keep an eye out for.

[@lksf9820]

Another interesting vid, thankyou. Not much to offer here as I manage to grow good onions without many issues. The three problems I have is bolting of some, red ones being too small and uneven crops. By that I mean some big onions and some small ones in the same beds, despite all being spaced at 6" apart. I'm not a fan of multi sowing at all, my thoughts are that when you're in the kitchen it takes twice as long to peel two 500g onions as it does to peel a 1kg onion so it's inefficient. It's the same when you're processing the onions too as the harvester and to store. The less onions you have the quicker you can process them for the same weight, when you've got four times as many that's a big difference. Out of interest, i'm growing onions right now (in the UK) from seed. I started them off in modules in August, transplanted under cover (low tunnels) maybe a month ago and hope for an earlier harvest next Summer. 90% of them are specific Winter hardy varieties, but I threw in a few non Winter type to see how they faired. Alongside are some sets too as a comparison. Obvious advantages; hopefully less bolting and less cost to buy. I grew a large 'show onion' type this year (forget the variety right now) and they did well too, even at the same 6" spacings. I never weighed them, but they looked like about a Kg each. Whose module trays are those? Looks like 150 cells in each. I've got some CD ones, but they don't suit me so have bought some with bigger cells in them.

[@REDGardens]

Good points about the processing time of the onions. I often only want a smaller amount of onion when cooking, so find more smaller onions are generally more useful, even if they can be more work. The trays are just ones that are available from my local supplier, Fruit Hill Farm, not sure if they are branded or have a name.

[@brians1001]

Thank you for the great videos. Have you noticed any Allium leaf miner?

[@ardenthebibliophile]

I don't think it's as common in Ireland or the UK. I have it rough in the US. You HAVE to either net the plants early in the season or adopt a spray schedule (IIRC Bt can kill the eggs).

[@brians1001]

@@ardenthebibliophile I'm an American in Germany. I started seeing it here about 4-5 yrs ago. I try to mitigate them by planting onions every other year, and the signs I see them I pull off those leaves. You can see the tiny larva in them. This year I saw very few of any type of insect, and didn't grow onions, so I'm hoping next year is a good onion year for me.

[@REDGardens]

Glad you liked it! I haven't noticed any leaf miner yet, but keeping an eye out.

[@steveme120]

excellent study keep up the good work ;)

[@REDGardens]

thanks 🙂

[@VilemBenjaminLiepelt]

Thank you for this video 🌱 Did you calculate the yield per area for the Polyculture and Extensive gardens?

[@REDGardens]

Unfortunately not. I thought I had weighed the bulbs from this gardens once they had dried, but apparently I didn't.

[@glassbackdiy3949]

Interesting thesis on the nutrients, thanks for the video Bruce. I had a few onions split this yr, also in calcarious loam, I had the soil tested at the end of the season which was lacking N ~100ppm also low in P, Mg, Mn and K well below ideals, I put the splitting issue down to onion fly, I applied a liquid IMO (JS compost, potato for carbs and rocksalt 1g/L) when I noticed some deformed leaf growth, plants seemed to recover and I couldn't find any larve at harvest, tho roots had died back a lot during drought conditions 2-3 weeks before harvest, only a few were deformed ~3-5%, purple onion aphid had moved in during the drought which I didn't even notice until the bulbs were drying, luckily I don't think the very late aphid will effect storage of an otherwise decent crop. I know my soil biology is lacking protozoa and fungi, (it's new imported loam) even with multiple applications of fungal dom AACT, I'd like to apply a protozoa tea but I'm stuggling to find alfala nearby, I intend try barley straw and grass clippings to see if it's a viable alternative next year.

[@REDGardens]

I have also heard the splitting can be caused by onion fly. I will be keeping an eye out for that pest, but none so far thankfully.

[@carolinekloppert5177]

super interesting. This backs up what I've read about onions not getting too much N during the bulb formation phase. could applications of dilute urine allow you to regulate their nitrogen supply ?

[@REDGardens]

Yes, I think dilute urine or some other high nitrogen liquid feed could help.

[@ardenthebibliophile]

I have been growing onions from seed for the past 2 years with reasonable success. I always put into compost. This year i added a granular fertilizer as a top dressing (i think a generic 3 3 3) and it didn't have negative results Perhaps a less hot fertilizer would be beneficial? Alliums are pretty tolerant of crappy soil in my experience; though im also not trying to get beautiful onions for market!

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, I'm learning that I need to find a better balance of fertility for this crop. It is possible to get a crop with not great soil, but pushing to get a higher yield in a smaller space seems to have issues.

[@ardenthebibliophile]

@REDGardens for sure, balancing out the nutrients is tough. And with a wide range of plots you have even more complicating factors! Best of luck and I'll stay tuned

[@carvalhofarmgoa4050]

Good farming 😊

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@diarmyfla]

Where do you get those bags of compost and at what cost? Enjoying all your videos from Galway

[@REDGardens]

I get them from a local supplier in Rosceea, who carry the Enrich compost. I think it is about €75 for a 'tonne bag' delivered.

[@steveoshakes]

Trying to grow onions where there is white rot present is very frustrating, Ive found growing them as much as it is possible in optimal conditions: most notably in full sun and not planting too densely, you can get a decent crop without too many losses

[@REDGardens]

I am going to try a lot of things to avoid this disease coming back! Not something I want in the gardens!

[@Jan-Boer]

cracked onions probably comes from a standstill in growth due to drought, stress or other growth causes. I can imagine that with no digging.

[@REDGardens]

I am not sure these plants experienced any growth stress like that.

[@babybalrog]

my only thought, merging two things you said. still utter speculation. it may not be the overall fertility, but the burst you mentioned when the compost broke down later in the year. I've seen some animal studies where they explore protein in the diet, and how it changes development and behavior in animals. indication being that normal amounts and high amounts produce different results, not just more results. Nitrogen, being related to protein, sound be doing something similar in plants. So if they've gone all season with one level, then their was a sudden release, that could shift their behavior. splitting would be the one i think would be related. In animals protein signals growth and preproduction since onions are basically cloning themselves when they produce new bulbs. that feels similar. This would be similar to how too much heat can trigger early flowing, or too much water has an effect. it's more about the jolt? or at least short term shift in behavior. and early flowing followed by a frost can kill many buds ruining some crops because it isnt sustained. I know some nodig growers put their compose on at the end of the season so its broken down more when they plan. Something similar? I know you've had to adjust your methods for your context, but just thinking of that implication. Didn't you do some more aged compost once? Or it could be something entirely different. But i dont think shocks to the system are wonderful for consistent plant behavior one way or the other. But i have no idea if this really surged nitrogen or not. sorry, typing on laptop is terrible

[@babybalrog]

@@chrisgartenn dont give validity to my crazy ideas.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting thoughts, thanks. I do wonder about the possible 'surge' of nitrogen. I think it was perhaps more that the levels of nitrogen released gradually increased as the soil temperatures increased, whereas in most of the gardens that don't have such good compost added, the amount of nitrogen available in the soil gradually decreases or runs out, generally around the time that the onions start to form bulbs.

[@MikeGtrMan]

Hi! Great video. I am wondering though why you didn't let the compost do it's job in the no-dig and also the intensive garden. Put it on in autumn, plant it then or in spring and let the micro-organisms take care of the crop. All the additives seem to throw sand into the eyes of the plants. Of course you know your soil test better then me, but nitrogen isn't something that we should have to add if the quality of the compost is good. Greetings from the Netherlands!

[@REDGardens]

The problem is that the quality of this compost isn't good, or doesn't have enough nitrogen in it to grow good quality vegetables. Or at least that has been my experience with the compost that is available to me. A lot of 'municipal compost' seems to be the same, more of a high carbon mulching compost.

[@MikeGtrMan]

@@REDGardens Thanks for the reply! Yes... I've never used our municipal compost since after independent testing there was shown to be a lot of microplastics, heavy metals, agricultural pesticides en pfas-forever chemicals in it. My garden is half an acre, so making our compost ourselves is a large task, but it is the only affordable way to go. Love your video's!

[@Picci25021973]

Last may all my onion crop was swept away by blight... in just one night. The apparent "easy" crops as onions, or beans, can be lost in a matter of days. (my beans as well aborted all the flowers around 15 of august, as in Italy we had a whole week above 36°C)

[@REDGardens]

That sounds like tough growing conditions! Around here I would not consider onions to be an 'easy' crop, too many potential issues, but they are such a staple in the kitchen!

[@gregbluefinstudios4658]

Really interesting, about that splitting. I would think the addition of the additional nitrogen a good month before planting, would be plenty of time for the water soluble stuff to be broken down and bioavalable. I would expect they wouldn't take up excessive amounts unless the additional nitrogen was a month or so AFTER you planted. It is curious to me. How much different was it for the plants that didnt split in the other garden? Was there a nearby bed that was slightly uphill and allowed nitrogen runoff into the one garden where excessive splitting occurred?

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, it is curious. I don't think there was any possible runoff in this context, as our soil is fairly free draining land. I also would have thought that most of the soluble nitrogen in the compost I added would have been washed away in the rains of the spring. So if excess nitrogen later in the season is the cause of the splitting onions, then it seems that it was 'released' from the compost through biological activity.

[@gregbluefinstudios4658]

@@REDGardens It seems to be from that earlier compost. There doesn't seem to be any other source. and it really didn't happen in the other gardens, to the same degree.

[@aanassazool]

what do you think about jadam practices ?

[@REDGardens]

I have no experience with it.

[@BlackJesus8463]

Do they split outside or always in the polytunnel?

[@lksf9820]

They're all outside.

[@REDGardens]

They all grew outside, but dried/cured in the polytunnel.

[@JoeFeser]

F1 are bred for a VERY specific area and condition.

[@REDGardens]

Probably. I figure if they grow better here, I’ll use them.

[@charlespalmer3595]

Those split onions reminded me of polyploidism, which is a method used in hybrid seed production. I don't think a month is enough time to let the N do it's thing in the compost. Aged compost is superior in every way!

[@REDGardens]

Interesting thought

[@Myxlplyk]

Do you grow your onions in the same soil year after year?

[@REDGardens]

no, always rotate the crops.

[@rickthelian2215]

Clearly some strange results, the normal is not to feed the onions once the start to bulb as the energy to create bulb should come from the leaves. Understand that too much nitrogen might have been an issue as compost extra nitrogen with other minerals together may have caused that burning look, just a thought! The green shoots coming from the bottom of the bulb is something I’ve never seen before is it a daylight length issue, I wouldn’t think so!

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, strange results. I also haven't seen the growth from the base like that either, and this growth continued after the bulbs were harvested, as they were drying/curing. It is like the plants were triggered to try to grow some more.

[@xianvox22]

Just throwing this out there as a different perspective... But outside of fungal concerns, I don't think bolting and splitting or even rotting are true losses. Some are still edible. And of the rest, you've effectively produced the same sellable yield while *also* producing compost. That's a win in my book.

[@REDGardens]

Yes, they are still edible, but don't store well in my experience, which is a big factor for this crop. I have also had complaints about the bolting ones when I do sell them. I am also not sure that the yield is the same. What I try to do is remove the bolting shoot as soon as it appears, so the plant won't spend energy and nutrients on the non edible parts. So not a total loss, but a factor I do hope to reduce.

[@xianvox22]

​@@REDGardenssure, but you effectively maintained your sellable yield compared to the other garden while generating a LOT of compost to boot. That's still a win! 😊

[@VanderlyndenJengold]

My soil is pretty fecund as I put dwarf growing plants in their and they grow like crazy. I did think Nastuurtium Tom Thumb was a dwarf variety yet it's trailing.

[@REDGardens]

that is cool

[@VanderlyndenJengold]

@@REDGardens *there. I did suffer through an education, I ought not to make such errors.

[@pilsplease7561]

Im still upset that bagged compost is the only option for compost that doesnt literally have little chunks of garbage in it.

[@marklloyd6433]

I think you need to rethink how you understand spread of disease. You can waste a lot of time and effort trying to reduce spores and spread. I just compost everything, don't care if it reaches any temperature. The spores are always there already waiting for the correct conditions, and even beneficial microorganisms can switch to pathogenic mode. I now only focus on fertility for disease prevention. Available silicon is a big part of this - a game changer!.. just watch some of the lectures on silicon and plant health. Potassium silicate has made a significant difference for every crop without exception and especially for my alliums.

[@REDGardens]

I try to focus on both. Basic hygiene and avoidance for some of the more persistent diseases, and also focus on plant health. Interesting stuff about silicon.

[@marklloyd6433]

@@REDGardens Yeah totally understand. I'm just of the belief you can't make healthy soil unhealthy with any amount of 'bad' spores. I bet you have noticed good hygiene does nothing to protect from late blight. btw if you want to go cheap on potassium silicate make your own - look up making sodium silicate but use KOH insteaf of NaOH. You can make it for pennies. I like to apply calcium and boron together with silicon. Graeme Sait talks abotu the synergy of these minerals. All the best.

[@TheWastedAccount12]

Dis a gud oñion, a heavy oñio!

[@lisahodges8299]

Please continue, thank you so much. Birdy

[@REDGardens]

😁

[@investidoramador9850]

omg cant belive my onoions look better than bruce's this year,ahahhaha

[@REDGardens]

😂