Top 5 Possible Bans For The RS-PK Format??

[@jackwilkening8320]

If you had to rank every worlds format, what do you think are the best/healthiest formats, and the most fun

[@thelostzonetcg]

Sounds like a good video idea :)

[@thomasstahnke909]

Just found your videos on the Ex series cards. Been enjoying them. I couldn’t agree more with Cessation Crystal as #1. It is so much stronger then any other tool that exists in the format. All the other tools are basically minor assist / utility as they should be, but Cessation Crystal is an absolute game changer. It forces most decks to play Windstorm and make stadium battles less of a thing. Honestly there is only one other card I would ban and it’s not on your list. Gardevior Ex with the Imprison Power. It has its own marker that kind of functions as a special condition, but it can only be removed by that Tropius. It’s just a weird game mechanic that’s overpowered with nowhere near enough ways to remove it.

[@benhaas5169]

I've been thinking more about how to handle RS-PK's toxic and unbalanced aspects. I believe you have to explore more options than just straight up bans. There's also the concept of 'rules' and 'clauses' rather than removing cards outright. For example, I was thinking about BombTar. BombTar's 'problem' is that eventually it creates a OHKO KO machine that there's no way of stopping (too few decks can actually run Crystal Beach and not be subject to OHKO's from Bite Off). It's correct that Pow! and Admin are not the source of its strength, rather 120-160 damage Grinds and Bite Offs. I believe it's actually Scramble Energy that puts BombTar over the edge and that limiting its use of Scramble would prevent it from going on those late game 6-prize runs. Think about; Rayler spends the whole game doing annoying things then draws all its prizes at the end. BombTar spends the whole game doing nothing then draws all its prizes at the end. If BombTar didn't have access to Scramble, it'd be easier for the myriad of bulky one-prize Stage 2's to win the prize war. So, here's an example of a 'clause' that doesn't eliminate BombTar but nerfs: 'Any deck that has Dark Tyranitar (TRR 19) and Electrode ex cannot have Scramble Energy in the deck.' This way, R Energy can act as the substitute and still give Dark Tyranitar the +30 that Scramble gives to Grind, but it's temporary and makes it a tad bit harder to pull off Bite-Off and sustain those 120+ Grind runs. I think there has to be more creativity in balancing out these old formats. The Pokemon TCG community figured out this problem a long time ago and they use a combination of rules, clauses and bans.

[@thelostzonetcg]

I completely agree there is a lot of different ways you could handle...bans are just typically the easiest way. As it's doesn't change the game (like adding a rule) and it's clear when it's violated (harder to tell with something like prop 15. However, I fully agree lots of ways you could approach this.

[@jakegearhart]

I think an interesting rule change that could be cool to test in RS-PK would be making taking prize cards optional. It might not change much, or it might come with a bunch of unintended consequences, but I like the idea of having the option to take knock outs purely to play the resource war. And it gives you a way to play around Electrode shenanigans- you're still going to stare down a field with a ton of energy on it and have 2 more prize cards than you would've otherwise taken, so it's definitely situationally dependent if you'd take prizes or not.

[@thelostzonetcg]

I guess I don't feel like this solves many of the issues. As you talked about Electrode still throws 5 energy on board and Minum decks will continue to just sniff out ER2 until you knock it out.

[@jakegearhart]

@@thelostzonetcg The idea would is that you could take KOs on Minuns all you want but you don't need to take a prize card for it. Eventually, without the use of Pow and low Admins to make the opponent miss attacks, the Minun player would run out of Minuns and energy. And since a deck like Rayler can't put on that much pressure without having turns of Rayquaza's body and use Pows, you could simply run them out of Pokémon entirely without ever taking prize cards.

[@kingwailord4143]

honestly I don't think Minum would be so bad without decks like Rayler and mewlock running around. Its a pretty balanced card when its outside of those 2 decks.

[@thelostzonetcg]

In theory without broken cards Minun is fine, but Minun is a pretty strong catalyst for other cards.

[@rk2kool]

I agree with 4/5 of your bans, Cursed Stone being the exception since without Sniff Out and Cessation it loses its potency. If I had to pick a fifth, it would most likely be Electrode ex. Combined with Admin+Scramble Energy, it still has too much going for it even if you ban Pow. And it's like you said, you have little choice in the matter. This is literally the ONLY reason I don't play in those weeklys but just spectate sometimes. Almost none of the games seem fun, but competitive sure. I prefer playing the more versatile decks in private games with a friend where we both agree on not playing 'toxic' decks. It's very rare for players to bring unexpected stuff in these tourneys, its always the same Arcanine, Banette, Bombtar, Rayler, RaiEggs. The only Ability-reliant decks that occasionally see success seem to be Dragtrode and LBS. After a while, it gets tedious seeing these decks but I understand from a competitive standpoint, this is what typically happens.

[@n1ght123]

Could be interesting to try a system like Yugioh Duel Links does where it has Limitations at 0, 1, 2, or 3 and for each section on that list you can't exceed that number for all the cards. So if you had Pow! Hand Extension at Limit 2 then you wouldn't be able to have more than 2 in your deck. Then you can take it to be like Duel Links and put other cards in the Limit 2 spot to limit cards playing with each other like putting both Pow Hand Extension and Minun at Limit 4 would mean you can't exceed 4 copies of both cards (could do 2-2 or 3-1). Duel Links even uses this system to limit the use of powerful cards from specific decks by putting their key cards on the same spots as powerful generics. So you could do Scramble Energy and Dark Tyranitar on Limit 4 that way if you want to run Scrambles then you have to cut into your other counts.

[@thelostzonetcg]

I think you could do something like that. I think one of the biggest problems would be the system would be more complicated for new players then outright bans. For experienced players it would be super simple. I've played a lot of yugioh over the years...but man that game is not always friendly to new players rules wise.

[@benhaas5169]

I just want to throw something out there before I way in: I think Prop 15/3 is an example of tailoring the game for exactly that: a game. It's one thing when TCPi's rules must be followed when thousands of $'s are on the line; it's their product and rules. It's another when you're trying to draw people from all the other choices they have for spending their free time. It's worth keeping in mind that these games were invented by people, not infallible machines. Those TCG One tournaments already utilize 50 minute games whereas the swiss rounds 'back in the day' were only 30. That alone is an example of a modern change that might also be affecting the outcomes of games. To use a Yugioh term, Beat Down doesn't have much of a chance to overwhelm Lock in Pokemon with that much time, especially with, as you mentioned, the recycling nature of certain cards. I agree with you that the individual cards are not the problem. For example, Shiftry ex variants can utilize Minun for hitting Bodies, or Dustox ex like in your deck. Although, I do feel Rayquaza ex Delta can get a bit nuts. I like that it's a 'splashable' attacker, but something is a bit 'Diamond and Pearl' about it with such a low energy requirement and no weakness. That said, I wholeheartedly agree the problem arises when certain combinations of these cards hit 'critical mass'. I haven't played Magic, so I can't speak for all card games, but I do play Pokemon and Yugioh. I feel that when I play Pokemon, I'm looking for the game to 'move'; resources are built-up, attacks are made, prizes are drawn. In Yugioh, you have more 'immediate' resources that can be used the moment you have them against a Lock deck (e.g. there's no Pokemon equivalent of Exiled Force). Pokemon doesn't have that. A certain number of cards have to be devoted to draw and search that can become completely dead in a lock scenario. I don't think many people enjoy being told they 'can't play', especially when these old formats are meant to draw people, in part, on the variety of cards and nostalgia. I think that's what frustrated a lot of players in 2008 with GG. Sometimes winning on one's own terms is more important than just winning for some people. Just my two cents there. As far as your proposal, you kept repeating it was combinations of these cards at critical mass levels, not the cards themselves. That tells me the ban list is not necessarily the solution. You mentioned Rayler a lot. There's a version of Rayler that doesn't use Cessation Crsystal, but focuses on Pow, Wobbuffet LM and sniping. I think that version is easier to beat, but you still have the Pow-Minun-Stantler Trio in full force. If the 'combinations' of these cards is the problem, then maybe not a ban, but a limitation. For instance, if you have any number of one card in your deck, you can only have so many of the other. Maybe. I will say this: you keep mentioning Rayler, not Camerupt + Stantler, or Marowak Delta + Stantler. While it's true that you don't need any of those to set up a Pow-Minun loop, it seems there's something about Rayquaza ex Delta's offense, staying power and low energy requirement that is shielding that trio from beat down in a way Mew Lock wasn't in 2006. The other problem I see is all these decks don't have a tier list segregating the elite from the good to okay. For example, in the Pokemon video game world, competitive communities break the Pokemon into tiers (and also impose their own rules on the game) so that the legendaries (Mewtwo, Groudon, etc.) don't make all 100's of other Pokemon irrelevant. As a result, you can have Lugia and Rayquaza bash each other in one tier, Tyranitar and Dragonite in another, and then your weaker stuff like Ludicolo and Steelix in one more That way, you can make competitive use of the entire Pokedex without having to measure every Pokemon and team against the literal 'gods' of the Pokeverse. Just an added perspective on that. This is definitely a worthwhile conversation. Thanks for starting it.

[@yuguise]

How would you feel about limiting cards instead of outright banning them? Like, you can only have one or two copies of certain cards instead of up to 4? I think it might be interesting to experiment with.

[@UltanOfficial]

I'd have ER2 and Crushing Hammer on these lists in any format. I can't tell if you're suggesting ban all 5 at once or just one of these? RS-PK without Crystal sounds like it would be more fun.

[@thelostzonetcg]

I'm not saying all 5 are needed as on their own they are fine, it's just when they all start getting combined you have issues. ER2/Crushing Hammer I have less issues with most likely due to the fact that they aren't as bad as Pow in most situations.

[@reginald97channel14]

I dont agree on this list.I feel like rayquaza ex needs to be banned.Cess help some decks that dont use pokepowers or bodies to Have space.

[@thelostzonetcg]

I thought about putting Ray on the list, but I felt like Ray is much easier to deal with than other cards. Tord for example started to tech a 1-1 Dugtrio into his LBS list and it largely removes Ray being a threat.

[@YGO_Renaissance]

I personally do not like community bans in any retro format, no matter what game it is. It simply opens up the floodgates for endless discussions were people cry about one card, the next card and then the next card. It just seems arbitrary.

[@thelostzonetcg]

The idea would be that you rotate cards in and out to keep the format fresh. As Jason runs 3 tournaments a week for over the last year with the exact same card pool staleness is bound to happen. I agree the community side of it can get toxic, the plus side would be a lot of the people that play in these Sunday tournament are "old Pros" and I feel possible ban conversations could be deeper than "I don't like this card, because I lost to it." Also it wouldn't be permanent rather just to "switch things up." However, I understand your sentiment! Yugioh itself will use a ban list to keep a format fresh when they aren't using it to push new product ;)

[@YGO_Renaissance]

@@thelostzonetcg I see your points, and those are really fair. Though, I always thought why not simply switch the format for a couple weeks then. In PKMN you have so many formats to choose from that are good. Implementing a temporary ban list will also push people away who want to play the format like it is. And funny you mentioned Yugioh, simply look at my channels name :) Yugioh is easily the worst game when it comes to "fixing" or "balancing" a game. That is never the intent.

[@thelostzonetcg]

@@YGO_Renaissance I know I play Yugioh for a solid decade. Actually switching format was my idea. I said lets do 2004 for a month, 2005 for a month etc. However, the RS-PK format seems to be a favorite of Jason and many others. I agree this would hurt some people, I've also seen a lot of players get burned out and take several months off before coming back. I think even among the die hard players the "fire" just isn't as strong as what it once was.