'Top Dog' - Brough Superior vs Vincent Black Shadow

I do not own anything. "Top Dog" made for Men and Motors TV, 2004.

[@Rogdog692002]

Both of these bikes has me drooling. Choosing one? No way, completely incomparable

[@davidfrost7983]

When I was a boy living in Shepherds Bush I used to walk to Goldhawk road to look and dream at the Vincent bike shop, 70 years ago, my first bike was an NSU Quickly, a whole 50 cc.

[@garychandler4296]

The Brough sounds a lot like a Sportster! I got to ride a Black Shadow back in my Triumph days. The gearing was quite high, like taking off in 2nd gear, only with much more power than my Triumph. The steering damper made it do whatever kind of carving you wanted to do, and it did sound very British. I'd heard that they were outlawed for a while in California because the cops couldn't catch them!

[@harryplummer6356]

Hello Gary. I so well remember the Black Shadow and Black Lightning in the 1950's. Brough built his motorbikes near where we lived in Bulwell a suburb of Nottingham. My Dad met Mr. Brough a few times although sad to say I didn't. You are a lucky fellow being able to ride a Vincent. Cheers!

[@m3hnl]

miller an absolute motorcycling legend a wonderful man with an amazing history a true icon of an era i will always cherish thank you for sharing

[@philrant2408]

Love the Brough because my Father had one and the Scott Flying Squirell

[@fredpauser6228]

It's great to see these wonderful bikes. I'm an old man who used to own 2 Vincents -- one for the road, one for drag racing, (and a 3rd basket case for spare parts). But one criticism: We motorcycle lovers do not need the glitzy gimmicky graphics editing done in this video -- way too much!

[@CheezSorce2]

Wow, coming late to find this video, what a dignified, articulate group, a pleasure to hear the input, the depth of knowledge, the objectivity is refreshing.

[@borderlands6606]

As Sammy Miller said at the end, "I'll swap you". The Vincent is clearly the better machine, being twenty years younger and having the weight of a factory behind it. The Brough was the apogee of the semi-custom built motorcycle and in the form here, priceless. Which is a euphemism for very few of us could afford it should it reach the open market.

[@draganm7823]

This was like comparing apples to oranges, especially since the bikes were from different eras in time. Both gr8 machines and both ahead of their time or top notch in their own time at the least.Ride safe.

[@Roadghost88]

I don't see this as a realistic comparison. You might as well compare the Vincent to a Kawasaki H2 Ninja and pick a winner. The Brough Superior was the star circa 1920 -30, the Vincent's shone brightest in the 1940s-50s. You really are comparing different eras and of course there are going to be new developments. Each bike has to be judged for what it did in its time.

[@gentlerowdy]

well said 100%

[@dominiqueegli1716]

@@gentlerowdybetter comparison with a Vincent Rapide Serie A : 1936

[@larrytownley2231]

Exactly ! 2 different eras,21years apart !! I'd take the Vincent!!!"for a daily driver !!

[@garyb2392]

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 it’s like GOAT vs GOAT! That said, the Brough is truly priceless ! A true one off! Just like one of judges said, I’d be afraid to ride it any place other than a closed track. Vincent is my dream bike and as one of judges said, one can “afford” a Vincent.

[@barryervin8536]

Both of these bikes are awesome, but belong to different eras and never competed against each other in the marketplace. The Brough company was history before the first Vincent was ever built (or at least the series of Vincent shown here). Nobody ever had to make up their mind whether to buy a new Black Shadow or a new SS100. And as someone who began reading motorcycle magazines in 1962 and got my first bike in 1964, I'm always amused by how bikes with 50 hp back then were marveled over and there never seemed to be enough superlatives to describe their performance. More power and speed than any sane human being could ever need! Acceleration that will pull your arms out of their sockets and blur your vision! Crank the throttle open and it's like space and time are compressed! Any bike that could do a low 14 second 1/4 mile and hit 110 mph was a ROCKETSHIP! LOL. I remember them all. But somehow today a bike with 60 hp is a "starter bike" and not suitable to take out on a major highway. And bikes with 100 hp are "underpowered". How time changes everything.

[@ultimobile]

I had a Black Shadow basket case in boxes of parts once - bought it off a sidecar dirt track racer - never got it together - meanwhile I was invited to ride a Rapide - the guy also had a Ducati 900 V-twin. So - we started off with him on the Vincent - I rode the Ducati - that was sweet, modern and torquey and sounded great as they do - lompity domp - I love that sound. Then at a distance we swapped, I got on the Vincent, he on the Duke and he accelerated away strongly in front of me. I wasn't about to max out his expensive antique so took it more easy - but noticed the rattling and noise not music to my ears, nor was the clunky ride - girdraulics are heavy and tend to crash over sharp bumps. Anyhoo - he disappeared out of sight, and not seeing which way he went I rode up to the top of a nearby lookout hill - kept the engine running as I didn't want to try that kickstart. A few minutes later he came by red-face and angry that I didn't follow him - he thought I'd stolen his precious bike ! After that I got back home and sold my basket case Shadow. Just now I used my calculator y root x function to work out the annual return using 458 GBP in 1952 to 17K GBP in 2004 over 52 years and got a cumulative return of 7.2%pa. My investment real estate has returned 14-37%pa over years so as much as I love the memory, I'm happy to have the money instead ... (this is after I've watched about 5 of these Vincent videos in a row - thanks for the absorption - and P.S. I had my major woke-up-hospital with many-broken-bones accident on a Ducati 350 Desmo - thanks illegal U-turn on blind crest of hill car driver !)

[@paulm2467]

You clearly don't know th price of a black shadow,sorry for your pain, but they go for £40,000 in bits to £120,000+ for a matching numbers prime example.

[@BCUMF03]

I would like to see the Velocette Venom Thruxton against the best BSA Gold Star. I admire them both. I ride a 60' Venom and would like to also be the caretaker and regular rider of a Gold Star as well. That's all we are, 'Caretakers' of these fabulous motorcycles as they go through 'THEIR' lives.

[@velobob4299]

Well you have got good taste. Venom mk1 clubman even with the 1 3/16" tt on it is every bit as fast as a gold star. Perhaps slightly slower top end. And of course the Velo handles better and weighs nearly 35lbs less than a goldie.

[@Ian-bq7gp]

The rarity of the brough makes it so special, the period it came out and its history. The Vincent is in house but is more modern. They are both beautiful.

[@snidepete5700]

Chris Vincent was an engineer with a factory in the '40s. Brough was a blacksmith with a barn in the '20's. The differences are overwhelming. You tell me!

[@christopher480]

The difference is they both knew what they were doing, you on the other hand do not.....Your rationale doesn't make any sense what so ever. The Wright brothers made bicycles before they made a plane. It turned out that they knew more then anyone else at the time, even engineers.

[@DavidKing-jx3sg]

Phil irving was his engineer

[@S2Sturges]

My father, was in 1949, sponsored by JAP as a flat track racer, and through connections ended up trialling as a production rider for Vincent with a eye to ride Isle of Man, in 1950, I think. his two most vivid recollections of the Black Shadow was that he felt the back wheel was trying to overtake the front wheel at any given moment, due to the lack of a actual frame, and hitting 85 mph in second gear. He decided very quickly that riding a Vincent was not in the cards, and went back to flat track racing..

[@mikmacarthur]

I used to parts for my old fantic 200 trials from Sammy when I was a lot younger, it eventually gave up the ghost in 1992 but I remember it being a bit of a shit to get parts for, never mind it served me well and took me everywhere off road of course, many a summer day spent at the top of Ben wyvis.

[@brianperry]

I have owned motorcycles from the sixties, seventies and the early eighties . from Ariel to Yamaha, BMW, Moto Guzzi, Ducati, Honda ...now at the end of my motorcycle journey a triumph Street Triple 675... I can look back and say they were all great in their time. thats how they should be judged... ten years is a long time in the progress of the technology ...

[@George-ig4mu]

My problem is I don't have a VINCENT BLACK LIGHTNING in my LIVING ROOM!

[@A-Cat-in-Dogtown]

My problem is I don't have Red Molly in my Bedroom!😃

[@MrSimplesimon007]

The best bike won, but they should have had Roland free,s example of the black lightning, a genuine 150mph machine, the black lightning was the fastest and most prestigious Vincent ever made.

[@albion2742]

You forget about George Brown and his Nero and Super Nero sprinters.

[@joebananas4741]

This programme would have been a lot better if they'd had a drag race between the two bikes before the final judging.

Once you take off the rose tinted nostalgia spectacles, one word describes both machines: Contraption.

[@brandino9000]

ahhhh yes 2013, back when HD/4K/8K didn't exist lol

[@susanmarie4257]

love that Vincent 'got to get me one ' add it to my collection

[@blusnuby2]

The Vincent is Lovely, but for Top Dog, you can`t beat LEGEND, and the Brough is just DRIPPING WITH IT...Game Over !

[@larrydawdy4148]

Brought was simply mostly an assembly bike from parts bought out. The frame, forks and other parts were purchased but Vincent made every thing themselves.

[@blusnuby2]

@@larrydawdy4148 I do think the 'visual topography' of the Vincent ENGINE is stunning; far "superior" to the Brough...

[@andershallberg3978]

Two iconic motorcycle brands, but an unfair comparison.

[@jamesdutton226]

THIS ONE SHOULD OF BEEN A DRAW , I WOULD OF LOVED TO OWN EITHER , BOTH FANTASTIC BIKES..

You should of stayed in class long enough to realise how moronic people who use 'of' instead of 'have' come across to kids with an 11 Plus.

[@RWBHere]

What appeals about the later V-twin Vincents was 100 mph at 2,700 rpm on the cheapest petrol you could throw into them. They could be run on 70 octane 'Pool Petrol'. And they were probably the only big production motorcycles of their era which didn't have a conventional frame. Another Vincent claim, about the Series C White Shadow, which was fitted with front and rear disk brakes (a first for production road bikes), was that they could 'stop from 30 mph in 30 feet'. Brought Superior were superb bikes, being made to very high standards (with silver plated fuel tanks, for instance), and one of their JAP engined machines held the Flying Mile world record of over 127 mph from the 1930's for over 40 years. But it's very unfair to compare beautiful motorcycles from two different generations, and then to claim that one is 'better' than the other. It’s like comparing Juan Manuel Fangio with Michael Schumacher and saying that Schumacher was better because he drove faster; it's a ridiculous and impossible comparison. That's the sort of nonsense which stops me from wanting to watch more of these programmes. They did a similar thing with the comparatively lightweight BSA Rocket 3 and a heavy 4 cylinder Honda 750. The two machines were designed with completely different philosophies behind them.

[@jnng7463]

first time I rode a Vincent series C, I was so excited and I was going 60 mph in 2nd gear, I couldn't use 3rd gear till days later because there were no road long enough

[@RudolfWolph]

I would've chosen the Brough for the history rather than a standard, factory spec Vincent. A particularly famous example of a Vincent would've been a more fair comparison.

[@fredpauser6228]

Agreed -- they should have used a Black Lightning for the comparison.

[@rattusnorvegicus4380]

20:38...give me the Brough any day...raw food has life-giving enzymes :) Outstanding for its time,outstanding now. I spoke at length with a Vincent sidecar racer and engineer,he claimed that Vincent engines were very poorly machined,saying he had to re-engineer many components that were badly made.

[@dog8nut]

Apples and oranges here ,the Vincent was a generation or 2 ahead of it's time when built. I owned a series C Black Shadow the technical aspects of some of it's design were ,in my opinion were brilliant. The servo clutch that when in correct working condition was a ONE finger operation and super controllable. With the 300 section front tire 2 fingers were all it took to lock the front wheel. Effortless power delivery 100MPH and the engine felt like it was just loafing along. I worked on and rode a bit a Brough SS 80 with the cooking Matchless SV engine. A nice pleasant bike to ride , BUT it was a assembled machine using the best available parts. Having owned almost every British performance bike from 850 Norton -BSA Rocket 3 to all of the road big singles ,Gold Star -Velo Clubmam ,and KSS etc. I still rue the day I sold off the Vincent and Ariel Mk 2 Square four.

[@harryplummer6356]

Fascinating stuff. Many thanks! Cheers!

[@keithgoodrick-meech3921]

Lance Capon raced a Vincent against Japanese super bikes in the 70s and won many titles. Nuff said.!!

[@hefinjones3385]

Having owned a couple of Vincent's dack in the early 60s In my humble opinion the Vincent wins hands down all designed and built in house Fantastic Machines, Where Brough was a Bitsa/ Mongrel 😃.

[@kramrollin69]

Interesting review. Im a little shocked tho....Lots of mention of the Brough's JAP engine, but No mention whatsoever of the Phil Irving the designed V twin engine's superiority, other than a cursory comment. If fact it is the ENGINE in the Vincent's that makes the bike (like the BS) Not the frame. Is this a little Colonial envy? Irving Was Australian, you know. Of course the Vincent engine was very popular in Aust. for Speedway sidecar work, Won many championships. You may be interested to know, that both the JAP 880 and Irving engine are made in Australia currently for race usage. Brand new engines, 100% better than the 40s tech. Either way, golly good show.

[@kurtjens]

I'd like to see a Top Dog for the Norton Commando and the Triumph Bonneville.

[@fredpauser6228]

The Commando was faster, but the Bonneville handled better -- a real delight on a curvy country road.

[@Wotdermatter]

They conveniently concentrated on Lawrence but forgot to mention people such as George Bernard Shaw the playwright who also owned a Brough Superior. 'nuf sed.

[@richardpope3063]

The Brough is a nugget while the VBS is the dogs what-sits. The VBS is hi-tech, the Brough....canned heat. Steve Wilson knows the 'gen'. Both Top Dogs. Brough the 'master', VBS the 'agile dancer'. Now an 1949 Square Four(alloy eng.) is super posh.

[@mikejones-go8vz]

Works of art, the Brough is a da Vinci, the Vincent a Michelangelo

[@wiscgaloot]

I'll take one of each, thanks.

[@jeremyatkinson4976]

Brough? a triumph of marketing. Vincent, a triumph of engineering

[@thetruth156real3]

It’s just a bit of fun guys.

[@poppacross79]

By the way, it was an American V-twin. Looks to be in the 750 class, and get this SOLID SUSPENSION BYCICLE FRAME! Only rear brake, a COASTER BRAKE! Talk about a suicide machine!

[@andyharman3022]

Bah! Don't tell me about how fast the Brough Superior went in 1929!. Glenn Curtiss went 136 mph in 1908 on his V-8 powered motorcycle on Daytona Beach. If ever there was an achievement of speed so far ahead of its time that it has been largely forgotten, Glenn Curtiss' certainly is one.

[@philhawley1219]

The claim wasn't ratified. Sounds like BS to me.

[@nealebradford6417]

17000, thousand, when was this filmed.

[@tubadude905]

That must have been a very, very long, long, long, long time ago...

[@bertmonroe2605]

The Brough is the king bike of its time the best of the best it is the rolls Royce of motorcycles, the Vincent wonderful machine but to me the Brough is right up there Lawrence of Arabia had a few what more can one say pure romance

[@justadam1917]

I am surprised the SS 100 was not replaceable by comparison to just another Vincent

[@rosstisbury1626]

the whole idea is . . Silly with a Capital S why not just do a story on each bike

[@TS50ER]

God Bless Ariel Motorcycles, and God Bless Sammy Miller

[@trailingarm63]

Power output hadn't moved on much according to the figures quoted: 50 bhp to 55bhp. If these engines were 20 years apart you might expect more. Was it the petrol maybe that was holding output back? Or maybe lack of water cooling?

[@randyroberts4239]

The Vincent is a production bike. The Brough was a purpose built bike designed to break the land speed record. A good analogy is Harry Everts' 1975 250 championship winning Puch that made in excess of 50 hp compared to a stock 2021 YZ 250 Yamaha that might make 48.

[@trailingarm63]

@@randyroberts4239 Thanks for that, very clear.

[@dougyoung4975]

Haven't read all the comments and this may have been mentioned, but the rear suspension comments of Vincent v Brough are not valid. Broughs could be specified with the "Bentley and Draper" frame, which had virtually the same rear suspension as the Vincent - and mine had it from 1928. Triangulated swing arm and springs under the seat. Just like a Vincent.

[@brucedavis8736]

im from Canada and love British bikes...was wondering why so many bikes have a hard time starting hot?

[@philhawley1219]

Under performing magneto

[@robroberts5303]

Could never understand why all the fuss. It was just like a rickman, bimota, seeley etc. a bitza made from parts bought in. the vincent was made by vincent.

[@skb7261]

I remember Sir Lawrence of Arabia died while riding his Brought Superior.

[@shaunrish9516]

When it comes down to a Vincent , the story is over , nothing comes close .and if it had have been a Black Lightning I doubt the brough would have bothered to show up at all

[@cigarboxpickandslide2979]

Black shadow £17000 ! When was this program made . The 1 st superbike ? By definition a bike that stands head and shoulders above anything else at the time . From the time of the very first machines were made giant leaps were made in relatively short times ,could not these then be considered super bikes albeit for short periods? The black shadow however was the first machine made in reasonable numbers over 4 yrs or so , and most definitely stood head and shoulders above anything else so from that perspective definitely the first super bike, not the Honda 750 four as many have suggested , which in some ways was actually inferior to the Vincent , the Honda didn’t handle I know I had one . As for the Honda vs the bsa rocket three ,most of the comparisons were levelled at the extras of the Honda , electric starting, overhead camshaft, disc brake , four cylinders, indicators. . Some of these features made the Honda user friendly,but does this make it a better machine to ride? Consider, once on the move ( the most important reason for having a motorcycle ) these things didn’t matter . The Honda was heavy ,didn’t handle , was very little faster than the bsa , didn’t sound as good so for me as an enthusiastic RIDER I would go for the BSA , yes it could leak oil, needed more maintenance, and drank more fuel ,but again this doesn’t effect the RIDE which in my book is what determines a machines status ,after all this is what the Vincent,and the Brough superior would be judged on . The Honda was an Everymans superbike , the bsa was the enthusiasts . In my humble opinion.

[@darrellsomers5427]

A production VS a race bike ,if they were the year it would be a fair comparison

[@46danz]

Doesn’t make any sense to compare these two bikes.Obviously if you had to take one home it would be the Brough.You could sell it and buy a classic bike collection.Crazy comparison.

[@leighahmke]

Can I have both?

[@BuilditRideit]

leighahmke if you have right kind of 💰 then yes, else these are museum pieces good only for show.

[@adamheazlett1179]

How do you get brock from brough ?

[@JimiHendrix998]

I would choose my Rap and Shad first. The Black Lightning is a more appropriate adversary for the record breaking Brough imho.

[@thewilderfanclub7896]

The Vincent every time

[@DavidKing-jx3sg]

Should have had the black lightning as a comparison.

[@deltabluesdavidraye]

Royal Enfield was The First Motorcycle to use stressed member cnstruction.Not Vincent.The venerable Bullet was first.

[@wilshirewarrior2783]

Discussion reaches..a fever pitch...uh..maybe..later

[@peteacher52]

Like comparing a Willys Jeep to a Series 1 Landy.

[@bobeden5027]

The Brough reigns supreme, the Vincent is a peasant in it's shadow!

[@owenjones506]

k i know this is not going to please alot of people , but lets face it the Brough was a mongrel, it might have been made of all the best parts of the day but its not an in house bike, as for the Vincent, it was designed and built in house and was one of the most inventive bike of its time and lets not forget led the way at the time and is still a reliable and would still keep up with alot of bikes today and although both bike are now expensive to but the Vincent is more affordable !

[@scotttait2197]

Saw this on secrets of the transport museam vs the mid 30s napier railton car , the bike would've won if it wasn't babied

[@mc2594]

how about a Laverda Jota v Honda Gold Wing? or top puppy - Fizzy v Garelli Record? top pussy cat? Suzuki GT185 v Yamaha RD200? ... Top Giraffe? Quasar v Foale QL ?

[@dennisschell5543]

Should have compared a Black Lightning....

[@frederickbowdler8169]

the Vincent like a Bentley was a truck of a machine should have had big leaf springs a s a tow bar and winch fitted.😅

[@Gohot229]

At 0:13 I predict the Vincent wins

[@hiya4964]

The Brough Superior is the grand father and also what all bikes are copied from, you cant compaire theses bikes as they are completely different. first, and more importantly the Brough is bespoke motorcycle and made by hand for the rider, everything is talor made just for the rider. Vincent is not its a production bike made under the same spec for every bike they make.. why do you think brough are called the rolls royce of motorcycles. the only bike company that is bespoke today is bimota. second the vincent is newer and a different engine, where as brough used J.A.P engines rather villiers engines. vincent used there own engine so we can compair them. we mite as well compair 1978 honda cb750 with a 2019 honda cb750 lol

[@Wotdermatter]

Everybody associated with motorbikes knows about Lawrence and his Broughs. Why do they always forget that George Bernard Shaw rode them on an everyday basis as well? 'nuf sed

[@geoffreycarson2311]

THE VINCENT !!!!!g

[@russcattell955i]

Ogri rode a "Norvin" !

[@MrAli171]

I can remember ogri was a brilliant cartoon series was his mate Malcom and his dog called kickstart ?

[@davidlloyd5161]

what a silly test! they should have put the HRD against the Brough. compare apples to apples next time.

[@deepindercheema4917]

It's not really a fair fight. The Vincent is just So.Obviously. Superior.

[@jaymorris3468]

Well, it's a daft comparison, it's apples and oranges, if it was down to money it's the brough, far more valuable, and over 100mph in the 20s. Like owning a 2020 Moto GP bike in the 1980s. Both beautiful bikes with amazing history but not comparable.

[@keztrucker7478]

17 k for the Vincent yes please , forward July 23 ....85 k

[@larrytownley2231]

Restor the brough mechanically if it needs it, otherwise DONT TOUCH IT!!!

[@paulevemy2819]

Vincent 👍

[@garryarmit8688]

Was that Freddie mercury?

[@markhancock7527]

Vincent all day long.

[@theodavies8754]

A Vincent or a Banksy. Not a tough call.

[@tomthompson7400]

The Brough is Superior , the Vincents just a Shadow .. nuff said.

[@hydorah]

Ha madness. World record winning bike - The very bike that did it, loses out to a (very nice) production line bike with no special history excepting being presented by Sammy Miller, which is quite special. But not special enough! Vs a world record holder? I mean come on! We all know which one would make the most mental money at auction - And which Sammy Miller would really prefer! See his reaction

[@brucecarney4416]

Threee xpertz as in putz

[@poppacross79]

BULLSHIT ALERT! The claim of the 1929 world speed record is bogus! Glen Curtiss held the outright record from 1903! 136mph

[@ironpirites]

Had to check this. According to the wikipedia article on Curtiss, the '03 record was 64 mph. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Curtiss#Bicycles_and_motorcycles "In 1907, Curtiss set an unofficial world record of 136.36 miles per hour (219.45 km/h), on a 40 horsepower (30 kW) 269 cu in (4,410 cc) V8-powered motorcycle of his own design and construction in Ormond Beach, FL. The air-cooled F-head engine was intended for use in aircraft.[6] He would remain "the fastest man in the world," to use the title the newspapers gave him, until 1911,[7] and his motorcycle record was not broken until 1930."

[@tykiedog]

The telling word is "unofficial". I set an unofficial record of 980mph on my Puch Maxi but there was only me and my mate there.

[@984francis]

tykiedog Good one!

[@PaulParramore]

@@ironpirites Yep, but it also states that Curtiss did 136mph one way in 1907 (but struck major problems on the return leg).

[@brob9995]

Awesome bikes, far from awesome tv show

[@alfonsoamador958]

Different motorcycles. Blonde or brunette? Well measure the tatas.

[@bernardspillane5948]

Boo. I like the cosmetic black but the brough is volumetric

[@fredblair4307]

thats just bullshit result bloody Vincent is just a British Harley lol

[@franktillbrook3031]

@.