Top Set + Back Off Set Talk: Back Day

[@benamitchell]

One thing I love about bodybuilding in the UK is the ubiquitous use of "in for" when talking about going to train 😂

[@cflw2689]

Love top set-back off set, as it’s fun, effective and efficient. It really shines in a calorie deficit when higher volumes start to bite and the primary goal is muscle preservation.

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

That's why i like NH's *Evolving Rep range* Approach more than the normal *Sets Across / Double progression* . it's basically the same but with a really small difference : that u maximize every set as u don't wait till u get for example (10-10-10) to jump in weight , instead when u show that u can replicate the effort and are ready for the next weight , so u might jump in weight when u get (10-9-8) or even (10-8-7) to maybe get (7-6-6) with the next weight jump . so there's minimal sandbagging or the mentality of not pushing the first 2 sets hard and go all out in the last set , or even stopping at 10 at the first set to get 10 in the last set ... (All these approaches are totally fine tho) but i like this approach better or even the *Rep Goal System* which almost work the same exact way .

[@kristijanpavlovic]

Yea I never understood why people sandbag to top out the rep range on every set. Might as well do a rep or two outside the rep range, it will only do you good.

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

@@kristijanpavlovic it has it's own upsides and downsides , i believe Faz made a video on it somewhere . however ye that's not how i like to train , personally instead of getting 10-10-10 i would rather get 12-9-8 and jump in weight next session . however sets across also has the upside of managing fatigue more instead of digging yourself into a hole every time and maybe that RPE8 in the first set could lead to better progress who knows . (i like to use sets across with beginners personally , as it'll teach them technique better and won't allow for much form break down , and it's safer by default , and tbh much simpler instead of explaining other methods haha)

[@bobby.2]

​@@Abdo.R.Mohamedyou have to cut sets too, no? if you did 12/9/8 there's no way you can manage three sets again after the weight jump. you might get 6/4/3(HYPOTHETICALLY) but given that this is not exactly fitting in your rep range, what would you do? Do one set of 6(even though your rep range is, say, 8-12)--> drop weight and do one/two more sets with less weight or would you just go home with one/two sets? I'm a confused novice here so it's just a question. cheers 🤝

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

@@bobby.2 Watch a video by NH called (How to keep growing forever - Ultimate hypertrophy method) . but essentially u won't have that much performance drop off if u jumped by 5lbs or so (depends on the rep range) but if u have a 6-10 rep range : u got (10-9-8 , with 100kg) if u jumped to 102,5kg u should be able to do it for 7,6,6 or so . but the video will explain it a lot more in detail , but u have many options to go around that issue if it happened which it shouldn't happen often as u think

[@bobby.2]

​@@Abdo.R.MohamedThank you for that! Makes sense indeed. What I meant is mainly about dumbbells. They have 5kg(~11lb)increments and progression is quite hard on them. Sure I can manage 55kg db bench for 10/9/8 but with the 60kg I can barely push it for 2 reps. What I was thinking maybe to lower the rep range to something like 4-8 to increase intensity and facilitate this big weight jump and then return back to 6-10 OR to just stop benching and do weighted dips in hopes when I return after 2-3 months the bench would be up.

[@ijustlift901]

More great insight! Also, gotta love the posters on the wall! I don't think I was looking at you much.

[@Fazlifts]

😁 keeps me busy between sets

[@8strang]

100% get it all! Sets, reps, top, back off, AMRAPS where applicable!

[@TheHaiku2]

It's one set, HIT super slow for me, and I'm living my best life RN, burn plus pump is out of this world, but we're all different, and what works for me may not work for someone else. Glad you found something that works well for you.

[@Fazlifts]

😂😂😂

[@inforapenny]

100% agree. My mentality means I push each set anyway but to me it hust makes sense to do this. Last set can be back off, drop etc to really hit it home 👊

[@aaronmsteele]

great approach faz- taking what you see useful from other methodologies and applying to yourself to reach higher heights is critical to our success in training in the long run

[@Fazlifts]

I was doing hard sets before top set, back off was a thing mate 😂 I'm not 'taking from other methodologies'. I'm literally just doing hard sets, that's not a "methodology" it's the basis for all training. I know you mean well mate, but hard training doesn't need a name and it's not a system. It's f**kin hard training

[@aaronmsteele]

@@Fazlifts This was a case of me not thinking before writing my comment but I concede 😂 at least im boosting the algo, gonna go train hard now coach 🫡

[@Danielsalazar-31]

I bring full intensity every set. Not to the point of psychological fatigue where I feel like I’m done but I just push through every last possibly clean rep in every single set that I’m able to and I know I’m activating total muscle recruitment

[@tyspirit9614]

Glad you're revisiting the 'Top Set + Back Off Set' approach. With full body workouts, they can get a bit clunky with 3 sets for each exercise, hence I like to hit each one hard with a Top set /Back off set instead. Equates to less weekly volume but i prefer it (atm).

[@Fazlifts]

Is that specifically for the squats/deads on heavy day? That can get rough with 3 sets, you'd likely be better off just doing 1 top set on those.

[@Abdo.R.Mohamed]

maybe if u want more volume add in more exercises like Alex does , where instead of doing 3 sets on 2 exercises , he does 2 sets on 3 exercises , it'll equate to the same volume but doing 2 sets each .

[@kidbrown2010]

The reason I do sub-optimal sets is that because from writing down my sets, I noticed that when I warm up to those meaningful sets, I tend to push them harder than when I go from complete warm up with 0 intensity to all out. So I'll do something like 4-5 RIR, then a set to 2-3 RIR and then I feel mentally and physically primed to go all out while minimally tired. I guess it's just hard for me to flip that "all out" switch at command. But the back off sets approach also seems great, if not better on paper. It makes more sense from a raw stimulus POV. It's something I'll definitely apply in the future

[@Fazlifts]

Understandable. If that's what you currently feel you need to do, alright. Sounds like you just need a more thorough warm up and prime. I think there are better ways to do that and still be able to push hard on the sets that matter.

[@barbellsandbeignets8625]

Very rarely do any more than 3 sets on any exercise these days. Haven’t used back off sets in a phat minute gotta work em back in

[@user-dn4lg1dv5v]

I use a feel set, then working set to failure, then back off set with lighter weight, but still to failure. This way, I hit failure in multiple rep ranges. Works great for me.

[@marcobecerra1977]

That row machine looks amazing

[@Fazlifts]

Yeah it's pretty sweet

[@victortironi2403]

Interesting take, Faz. Will this be something featured in your revised Barbarian routine? And when are you planning on releasing it?

[@benamitchell]

Oh and a name drop too! 😁 Yeah I've been using more of a 3 set approach during prep but I love the top set and back off set approach. I think when I transition back into off-season I'll be using it again for certain exercises.

[@Fazlifts]

Gotta name drop the big dawgs

[@benamitchell]

@@Fazlifts you dropped this 👑

[@upraviteljvicar8607]

very motivational posters in your gym ;)

[@Morbidly_obese33]

amazing vid, recently discovered your channel and binged hard on the content ,learned so many new things .one question tho what are your thoughts on effective rep goal system by paul carter and cris ? seems to work for many natty folks

[@Fazlifts]

Hey man, welcome to the channel. I hadn't even heard of that so I gave it a quick google for you, and yeah that's a very, VERY old system. I recall when I was coming up there was a similar routine called the 'Have It All' system which was based on the same thing. I think it's a fine system, and there have been many variations on it over the years. You could utilise a certain number of reps within a certain time block, like 5 minutes - or across 3 sets. Either way it works because you bring in a third parameter (more than just weight and reps) into the progression. Whatever gets your blood running I say!

[@Morbidly_obese33]

Thankyou

[@johnmorgan7989]

Good vid. On a slightly different subject say one day I'm fresh and feel good and do a set of dumbell chest press to failure with 40kg dbs. Next week I have to train first thing in the morning, didn't sleep well and just don't feel great. Can't even jack up the 40kg dbs and my top set is only 37kg. But I give it all and push to total failure. Did this set provide no stimulus for growth because its less than I can do when I'm in an optimal state?

[@Fazlifts]

Yeah if it's that big a difference, then something seriously went wrong during that week. My clients might lose a rep here or two, but if you're losing 3kg on each DB then yeah something went majorly wrong that week. In that case, here's what you do: Look back at your week, and identify where you f**ked up. Sleep, food, w/e it was. It will be something. If you think you did everything perfect, then you're in even more trouble.

[@johnmorgan7989]

@@Fazlifts fair play. Just bad sleep and having to train too early with sub par nutrition. Should have stayed in bed!

[@Fazlifts]

Happens mate. It's not even a bad thing, you tried and that's good. A lesser man wouldn't have bothered.

[@alexprec1313]

I train about 8pm most days so I have a full day of eating before I go. Anytime I’ve been to the gym in the morning I’m lifting at least 5 percent less you just don’t have the same fuel. Just my thoughts

[@johnmorgan7989]

@@alexprec1313 yeah my normal routine is a good breakfast drink coffee on way back from school run and in there about 9.30 which is great for me. This morning up at 6 after a crap sleep. Had some mass gainer stuff that just seemed to go in one end and out the other, coffee which just didn't wake me up followed by a workout where I felt like a tired wet rag. Stupid to have persevered as its not done much for morale

[@Henock95]

Hey faz, what exactly is considered an injury? Today I did legs and on my way home my right knee kinda feels inflamed, I can walk without pain in fact I was running a bit cause I was caught in the rain, is this normal or is this how an injury starts?

[@Fazlifts]

See how it feels next session, if you're in pain then swerve it. Just being honest with you, for me right now it's the end of the week and everything hurts. So I'm gonna be super careful going into sessions, not wanting to aggravate anything. I walk that line all the time. Most advanced guys do. You gotta be sensible but you can't shy away from it either. Sometimes you get that call right, other times you get it wrong. That's life.

[@Henock95]

@@Fazlifts Will do, thanks

[@barbellbryce]

Definitely a cool idea! Top set back off set seems to be the "in" thing right now. The pendulum is back in Dorian's corner 🤣

[@Davichiz]

I'd lose all enjoyment with the gym if I had to hold back on sets. honestly hats off to the people who manage to do that, it'd just sap all my enjoyment out of lifting.

[@Borderbeach]

It doesn't really matter if you do 2 or 3 sets. Just push the sets you do and that's it. Once you feel like you can't push a set hard enough with 3-5 minute rest... leave the gym and come back recovered. Depends on what you can recover from. I've seen best growth in years takin set amounts down. Making hella strength gains. Only 80kg guy but leg curling whole stack (it's like 85kg) with a good technique for 6 reps at the moment. My strength blew up when I started lowering my sets so I wasn't recovering well enough for higher volumes. been doing 6-10 sets per week per muscle now.

[@Soccasteve]

I definitely find 3 hard sets to be superior to both 2 sets and 4 sets for hypertrophy in most instances. What happens to me with 2 sets is I seem to peak my strength, which is fine if you want to peak but it’s inferior if your main goal is muscle building. Also, like you, I just push each set to failure. So you have to think about it as “hit a top set but then perform 2 additional sets”. The reps will drop off a bit especially from set 1-2 but that’s the goal. 4 sets is superior to 3 with some muscle groups and exercises but as a whole 4 sets is just a bit too much to recover from and unnecessary.

[@Fazlifts]

Tbh mate almost exact same experience as me lol 🫡

[@tonyvee5799]

The way i look at it back off set is like a drop set.

[@Fazlifts]

Different things Tony

[@kashifhaque2085]

Damn, everyone in UK gyms seem jacked!

[@Fazlifts]

Some BIG boys and girls here!!!!

[@thmanoy]

Back off sets feel easier because they are lighter than the top set so it's easier to go to failure. And for the top set, you want to beat your PR. So it makes sense to work for most. It's just two sets but most people would give them more effort.

[@Fazlifts]

Yeah most people aren't capable of delivering that intensity to multiple working sets. It's a skill which takes practice, but if you can you'll do well.

[@techtexan2816]

I’m curious then. How does this go with what you said about mastering the weight?

[@Fazlifts]

They're not mutually exclusive, that still applies. You don't want to jump the gun when moving up right.

[@techtexan2816]

@@Fazlifts how so? I thought in mastering the weight you’d add reps and sets before adding weight. Example: 200 lbs set 1 8 reps set 2 6 reps set 3 5 reps. Overtime get 8 reps for all 3 sets then add a set or 2 and get those reps to 8. Then add weight 205 lbs and drop back down to 3 sets.

[@Fazlifts]

I alternate between 2 and 3 sets per exercise, tighter range but works at this point in my life. Training every day I have to be conscious of overall stress.

[@techtexan2816]

@@Fazlifts gotcha

[@GangStar_6]

Good morning! Let’s go!

[@CODE0M3GA]

Idea - top set 1-5 -20% 3x8-12

[@Fazlifts]

Yeah that works man, you don't have to restrict yourself to one back off. All I'd say is, just do the minimum you need to progress. You'll eventually have a much better time if you keep that in mind.

[@patrickjulius7352]

How do you deal with the chest/sternum compression from the chest supported rows?

[@ham5744]

Glad I'm not the only one. I'm 5'4 as well so doesn't help haha.

[@patrickjulius7352]

@@ham5744 it sucks because I want that stability but the chest compression has left my sternum sore for couple weeks sometimes. I work out at home so I was trying to do chest supported db row on incline. Kinda stuck with one arm variations or inverted. What rowing variations do you rely on?

[@ham5744]

@patrickjulius7352 currently I'm doing pendlay and Hammer strength machine Row. Get using thst barbell bud 💪

[@patrickjulius7352]

@@ham5744 dont love the barbell when I hit front squats and RDLs every 4-5 days currently. Pendlays stretch my hamstrings to the max to get in a good position, basically the furthest extreme of my hips range of motion and then pull a heavy barbell. I want to like it. tried it a bunch. just too much other stuff in the way of progression and recovery

[@mirceamurgu]

Golden

[@RickyEndicott]

I like 50% sets . You do your first set to failure then rest one minute and do a second set trying to get at least half of the reps of the first set .

[@Fazlifts]

There's absolutely zero chance I'd be getting anything close to half reps with the same weight after just 60 seconds with the intensity I train. I'm sure you know what's best for you, but that seems like a horrendously poor prescription for anyone who trains hard.

[@RickyEndicott]

@@Fazlifts it’s just a rest pause but with two sets instead of three . And that’s usually done with a shorter rest period like in Dante Trudel’s dogg crapp training.

[@RickyEndicott]

I don’t do forced reps or negative training anymore because I’m 67 now. Only positive failure or close as possible

[@Fazlifts]

Yep makes sense now. All good my friend. Wouldn't work for me but you'll know best for yourself.

[@RickyEndicott]

@@Fazliftsgreat videos sir

[@Sonic_1000]

No straps gang!