Top Ten Questions to Ask Skeptical Friends (Frank Turek response)

[@leothenomad5675]

Frank to some guy he just met: So are you a religious person? Guy: I don't talk religion to some guy I just met Frank:😟 But I had a whole thing prepared

[@Paulogia]

😆

[@AzureDragon158]

The proper answer: Yes, extremely religious. I one day hope to die gloriously in battle and be accepted into the hallowed halls of Valhalla.

[@danhoff4401]

@@AzureDragon158 out crazying the crazies is sometimes the best play

[@ladyselenafelicitywhite1596]

There used to be a commonly held belief here in the UK that it wasn't polite to discuss politics or religion. I wish that was still the case. Obviously, this wasn't a universal principle.

[@JayMaverick]

@@ladyselenafelicitywhite1596 the reason it's considered impolite is because people don't like to question their beliefs and because the church has scared people into not asking questions. These topics should never be taboo.

[@42percenthealth]

Man, I remember when I first expressed my doubts about God to my wife, she immediately wanted me to talk with a Christian friend of ours who was big into apologetics. I tried expressing my doubts and questions to him... very few conversations in my life have been more frustrating and pointless. It was very clear that he had a script he wanted me to follow; and if I answered him in some way that wasn't what he had been told by the likes of WLC or Frank Turek that an atheist would respond, he would repeat the question in different words trying to tease the desired answer out of me.

[@Joemamahahahaha821]

The arrogance in these people. They know what’s best for everyone.

[@martinmckee5333]

I knew someone like that as well, though he had a unique take and felt that all my answers could be found in the Book of Psalms. Still had his script though, and still made no effort to listen to or understand my position. It is very frustrating - even more so knowing that he actually did care. He just couldn't escape his own beliefs enough to be a good friend.

[@wfemp_4730]

Not trying to get too personal here, but has your revelation to her affected your relationship? Is she still a believer?

[@42percenthealth]

@@wfemp_4730 Yes, she is still a believer, and no, it hasn't really affected our relationship much. There was some initial fear on her part that we would have to separate, or that I would become abusive because... atheist, I guess. We've also stopped attending church, but that's about it. For a long time, she didn't want to talk about our differences of opinion on religion, just hoping that I would "come back around". Lately, she's been a little more open about asking questions, especially regarding our plans to have kids in the future and how to handle raising them.

[@Amoth_oth_ras_shash]

@@42percenthealth sounds like something that be good to 'hash out' before having kids... after all , most kids are way more swayed by emotional arguments..even bad ones.. maby if you two still want to be partners and have family do something like ''not before age of reason' or such stuff... sounds like one frustrating way to leave religion though ,having to get a first hand taste of how dishonest or emotional arguments deependent apologetics can be ... either way , live long and prosper in waht ever way you feel for mate! ^^ hoppe things stays nice and warm between your mate and yourself as you hash that hole to humunculie or not humunculie out ;)

[@Locust13]

Frank's audience is going to be highly disappointed when skeptics don't stick to Frank's script.

[@marccolten9801]

“Hm, the script doesn’t even _mention_ them telling me to go eff myself.”

[@streetsdisciple0014]

Correct. It’s very easy to turn these questions right back on them.

[@scienceexplains302]

Disappointed and sometimes angry… trying to force the conversation into a script of false dichotomies.

[@heinshaaine8153]

I am really happy that nobody ever even tried to convert me... i really would fall for the skript out of ineptness...

[@Commanderziff]

I don't think they're going to be disappointed, they may well feel vindicated. "They're not giving me the right answers. What more proof do I need of their dishonesty?"

[@mistahbreeze4412]

Remember, my Christian flock, that it's not about having a conversation with a fellow human being, it's about identifying and exposing the infidel and either converting them or at least making sure to out-group them to our fellow believers to keep them from poisoning our beliefs with their 'thoughts' and 'logic'. Thus we ask the question; "Were you raised in a religious home?"

[@erikblaas5826]

Wel, if those questions were asked to me, it could go on a bit like this from my side; No, sorry to say so. My home was not religious, it was just made of bricks and mortar.... But why do you ask such a question, are you in house building business? No, you want to talk about religions? Aha, Christianity, where the teachings of Jesus Christ state that you should love your fellow humans whatever there religious background is.... Hold on, why you say that, that is not very Christian to say so, you are shunning me for not being from the same type of Christian believe as yours? Are you shure you are a Christian? Now you sound more like one of those brain-washed people from a cult group. No, I am Christian, but not as short-sighted and prejudiced as you seems to be. Are you shure you are a Christian? See how easy I turned the table and put the guild pressure on the side where it belongs?

[@DemonicRemption]

@Mistah Breeze As a Christian I can attest to seeing this more times than I care to count. Sad thing, there are exceptions, but you don't hear about them. And I'm jaded enough to think people like Turek don't want those voices to be heard.

[@alflyle9955]

As an atheist, I take great comfort that Turek is considered one of the best Christian apologists, preachers, and authors. If he's the best they've got, they don't have much.

[@Jrpyify]

IS HE? That's amazing, because that was awful.

[@user-hp6pj4sy3k]

If Christianity were true, apologetics wouldn't need to exist. There would be no need to have tons of made-up "arguments" for something if it was obvious that said thing was real. And the fact that apologetics all teach different things, only makes it more contradictory. The one good thing I will say about Frank Turek is that he's polite when he engages atheists.

[@brianpeterson8908]

When the core of your beliefs are based on fantasy and fear, you are already starting behind an 8 ball. It's all down hill from there.

[@pwoods100]

That's what I've always said - if he's one of Christianity's best spokesman then Christianity is in trouble.

[@reubenmanzo2054]

"Was that your last card? It wasn't good enough." Or alternatively... "Is that fear? You do know you never stood a chance, right?"

[@Slum0vsky]

Turek never fails to disappoint.

[@deathwatch1980]

not sure if this is dubble negative or not?

[@hifijohn]

He never disappoints me because my expectations of him are very very low.

[@reformCopyright]

Would you be disappointed if he some day did fail to disappoint?

[@genXstream]

Yeah, when I heard Turek say, "If Jesus rose from the dead, Christianity is true," I thought, hold up. That's still a pretty large epistemic step.

[@hitesh8383]

@@genXstream If UFOs exist (which have eye witnesses) and aliens have "free will" to visit earth, then bible is false because man is not a unique creation...

[@mashah1085]

Frank Turek is one of the most potent forces for atheism around today.

[@larrydesmond1787]

Thank you.

[@BryonStice]

Paul, thanks for always being a great role model in how to have a calm, rational dialogue on these topics!

[@Paulogia]

I appreciate that!

[@wickedcabinboy]

@@Paulogia - I absolutely envy your ability to remain calm and rational in the face of such absurd provocation.

[@gmgurp6666]

@@wickedcabinboy I sometimes wish I could find a playlist of Paul and Sir Sic addressing the same videos just to see the two extremes of the emotional spectrum juxtaposed.

[@wickedcabinboy]

@@gmgurp6666 - That's like comparing NPR to SNL, Paul's educated, knowledgeable, calm and methodical. Sir Sic just roasts theists with flame broiled sarcasm. Both have their place.

[@thejudgmentalcat]

"It's not a head problem, it's a heart problem" so much to unravel there, proving it's not a convo, it's an attack

[@danielsnyder2288]

He is avoiding saying "We have no empirical evidence so try to wow them with arguments instead

[@byebry]

I love how he also accused atheists of seeking comfort, not truth... I mean... really?

[@Nerazmus]

When the "heart problem" is not feeling like supporting a guy who sentences people to infinite punishment for not licking his boots.

[@bleirdo_dude]

It's a Holy Dopamine Ghost via Placebo Faith problem.

[@memitim171]

@@byebry Have you ever seen an apologist who doesn't love projection? It is rather insulting though, it wasn't easy to accept the universe is cold and uncaring and I certainly didn't do it because it gave me comfort...I accepted it because I had to, not because I wanted to.

[@Florkl]

If you believe in Justice, you don’t believe in pardoning the guilty. Lining those two up beside each other is a huge contradiction.

[@Paulogia]

right?!?

[@quebeccityoliver4742]

I prefer Terry Pratchett's view. “Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. Hogfather Quotes by Terry Pratchett - Goodreads Or if you prefer his darker, older take - From Snuff "Willikins laughed. “Truth is, Mr. Stratford, from where I sits he’s a choirboy, he really is, but there has to be some justice in the world, you see, not necessarily law justice, but justice justice, and that’s why I am going to kill you. Although, because I’m a fair man I’m going to give you a chance to kill me first. That means one or other of us will die, so whatever happens the world is going to be a better place, eh? Call it…cleaning up. " Wilkins then kills him.

[@joecoolioness6399]

And who honestly believes that punishing your kids and your grandkids for your actions is justice?

[@adamthaxton3157]

Oddly enough, I didn't have any "negative" interactions with Christianity until I left the faith.

[@autonomouscollective2599]

Same here. My Christian upbringing was mostly pleasant. And I even went to a Catholic school. I'd happily be Catholic still if it wasn't for, you know, not believing it anymore.

[@mikewrites1577]

same for me

[@e.n.6079]

@@autonomouscollective2599 Well, Catholicism is a nonsense anyways (so not bad to go away from the Catholic church) , but not the true gospel.

[@autonomouscollective2599]

@@e.n.6079 There’s really no such thing as the “true” gospel. There’s all sorts of different translations and interpretations, and no one has yet nailed down which are correct. And there probably never will be because there will always be differences in opinion.

[@larrydesmond1787]

@@e.n.6079 And the "true gospel" is...?

[@foppishdilletaunt9911]

Oh, my, my favourite, calm, rational, deliberative and honest interlocutor, The Esteemed Dr Frank Turek, always interested in a fruitful and mutually enlightening dialogue… “Evangelical foreplay” 😂

[@timeshark8727]

Its subtle... but I'm sensing some sarcasm here

[@DAYBROK3]

ever been to those fellowship things after church?

[@1970Phoenix]

I'm just happy to finally hear Turek speaking without yelling like an angry drunk. He does yell a lot … and he always seems angry.

[@funkdragon7659]

I’ve been a Christian for 40 years and still don’t understand it! The world “of order”has forced me to challenge my doctrine and come to a realization that there might not be a creator. Good arguments being made by Paul

[@martifingers]

Hi Paul. I hope you are not too traumatised by this - at first glance it would seem to be a great threat to your world view. FWIW I think the subjects being considered (the nature of the cosmos, morality, the nature of truth, the relationship between our perceptions and reality, the reliability of scripture and the nature of myth, the precise nature of God etc. etc.) are each complex and difficult to even formulate in words without the possibility of us making errors of logic or of fact. To claim a monopoly of truth is probably then (to coin a phrase ) the major sin. To say "I don't know" probably the wisest option in many areas. I have my own ideas why genuine dialogue appears so difficult but it seems to be the only way.

[@Nameless-pt6oj]

If you want evidence for Christianity, look at the resurrection, that’s all you need. Read CS Lewis and George Lyttelton, watch Michael Jones and Erik Manning.

[@Tore_Lund]

No sane Christian claim they don't doubt, including any pastor I've ever asked. Only crackpots claim the bible is the word of God. God is not required for Christianity to be true in an utilitarian sense. In other words, a religious organization, personal belief and Theism as an idea are 3 completely different concepts. Further the bible dismisses any attempt of self-righteousness, especially the religious kind but still recognizes acts of humanism dethatched from any kind of religion as equally valid! I seriously believe that not a single self-proclaimed preacher in the US even would qualify as Christian had they cared to attend any Theology university in Europe. Atheism is not about what religion gets wrong and why it is bad. It is about what the absence of Theism, the absence of an objective purpose in life leave us. As an Atheist, don't fall in the trap of making debunk videos. It is not relevant how they are wrong in the same way that proving Flat Earthers wrong is pointless as time is better spent on learning what can be done on a round Earth. In science, Big Bang is not a creation hypothesis for the universe. It is a tool to describe the conditions in the very early universe. General Relativity can not give an answer to what is outside spacetime, so it does not even hint at anything.

[@nicolab2075]

@@Nameless-pt6oj Hi! I thought I'd give one of your recommendations a go, so I searched Erik Manning on KZbin, and it took me to a Testify channel - I assume that's his channel? The first vid was called something like 'new argument for the resurrection ', which sounded relevant to what you were recommending. I was planning to listen to the whole thing, but honestly the first minute was such a dense, fast-spoken review of bits of the Bible that I couldn't follow it at all. Do you think reading bits of the Bible will convince non believers that the resurrection happened? To me, the Bible just seems made up by people.

[@bleirdo_dude]

2 Pet. 1:16 "16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty." 2 Pet. 3:15-16 "15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." Phili. 2:6-8 "6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross." 1 Cor. 2:6-8 "6 Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. 7 But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (Note: "rulers of this age" is reciprocal with Earthly & spiritual powers to the ancient reader) 1 Cor. 15:50bc "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." Zec. 3:1-9 "1 Then he showed me the high priest Joshua (Savior) standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan (Adversary) standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this man a brand plucked from the fire?" 3 Now Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." And to him he said, "See, I have taken your guilt away from you, and I will clothe you with festal apparel." 5 And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with the apparel; and the angel of the LORD was standing by. 6 Then the angel of the LORD assured Joshua, saying 7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here. 8 Now listen, Joshua, high priest, you and your colleagues who sit before you! For they are an omen of things to come: I am going to bring my servant the Branch. 9 For on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven facets, I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the guilt of this land in a single day." Zec. 6:11-13 "11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest Joshua son of Jehozadak (Savior Son of the Righteous God); 12 say to him: Thus says the LORD of hosts: Here is a man whose name is Branch: for he shall branch out in his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he that shall build the temple of the LORD; he shall bear royal honor, and shall sit upon his throne and rule. There shall be a priest by his throne, with peaceful understanding between the two of them." Jos. 10:22-27 "22 Then Joshua (Savior) said, "Open the mouth of the cave, and bring those five kings out to me from the cave." 23 They did so, and brought the five kings out to him from the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. 24 When they brought the kings out to Joshua, Joshua summoned all the Israelites, and said to the chiefs of the warriors who had gone with him, "Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings." Then they came near and put their feet on their necks. (see Psa. 110:1/Heb. 10:13) 25 And Joshua said to them, "Do not be afraid or dismayed; be strong and courageous; for thus the LORD will do to all the enemies against whom you fight." 26 Afterward Joshua struck them down and put them to death, and he hung them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. 27 At sunset Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves; they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day. (see also Deut. 21:22-23/Gal. 3:13)" Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4, Phili. 2:6), Agent of creation (Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6) Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I "XVI ...Now the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made..." Celestial high priest (Heb. 2:17, 4:14), God's Word (Heb. 1:3, 11:3), Firstborn son (Rom. 8:29) Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT "XXXVII ...the high priest is the Divine Word, his own firstborn son." Philo: ON ABRAHAM "XLI These things, then, are what are contained in the plain words of the scriptures. But as many as are able to contemplate the facts related in them in their incorporeal and naked state, living rather in the soul than in the body, will say that of the nine kings (Gen.14:1-2) the four are the powers of the four passions which exist within us, the passion of pleasure, of desire, of fear, and of grief; and that the other five kings are the outward senses, being equal in number, the sense of sight, of hearing, of smell, of taste, and of touch. For these in some degree are sovereigns and rulers, having acquired a certain power over us, but not all to an equal extent; for the five are subordinate to the four, and are compelled to pay them taxes and tribute, such as are appointed by nature. For it is from the things which we see, or hear, or smell, or taste, or touch, that pleasures, and pains, and fears, and desires arise; as there is no one of the passions which has any power to exist of itself, if it were not supplied by the materials furnished by the outward senses." Philo: WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS "XXXVIII ...Now, the craters of the sense of seeing are the eyes, those of hearing are the ears, those of smelling are the nostrils, and so on with the appropriate receptacles for each of the senses. On these craters the sacred word pours a portion of blood, thinking it right that the irrational part of us should become endowed with soul and vitality, ...purifying itself from the deceitful alluring powers of the objects of the outward sense which aim to overcome it." Philo: QUESTIONS & ANSWERS ON GENESIS, III "(51) What is the meaning of, “And it shall be my covenant (or agreement) in your flesh?” (Gen. 17:13). God is willing to do good, not only to the man who is endued with virtue, but he wishes that the Divine Word should regulate not only his soul but his body also, as if it had become its physician. And it must be its care to prune away all excesses of seeing, and hearing, and taste, and smell, and touch, and also those of the instrument of voice and articulation, and also all the redundant and pernicious impulses of the genitals, (morning cross? Rom. 7:23) as also of the whole body, the effect of which is, that at times we are delighted by our passions and at times pained by them."

[@Locust13]

Something Matt dillahunty likes to say whenever someone just starts rattling off a bunch of leading questions is "I'm not here to be interviewed" Asking questions is fine but doing nothing but asking questions as a methodology for dominating a conversation is dishonest and unusual.

[@Paulogia]

I like that line.

[@Florkl]

The Socratic Method is a fine thing in certain contexts, but using it exclusively shows you can’t defend your belief, only attack theirs.

[@cygnustsp]

thats what flat earthers do too, during a "debate" when asked to provide evidence all they do is ask questions and try to get a "gotcha" moment

[@DJHastingsFeverPitch]

I think this is a version of JAQ'ing off a.k.a. "jusk asking questions" had a pastor do this to me once. Was a really shit experience

[@larrydesmond1787]

@@DJHastingsFeverPitch As a non-believer/atheist for about 60 years, I think that answering personal questions about my lack of belief with broken record is fun. For example, whatever the believer/apologist says, I understand that for you religious belief is important, for me it isn't, I understand that for you... Depends on the context/questions, but this does tend to irritate some apologists and I find that gratifying. That is, I am fairly sick and tired of apologists assuming that anyone who disagrees with them must do so on the apologist's/cultist's terms.

[@DarcOne13]

Oooh, I'm gonna play along: 1: Yep. My mom is a theist and my dad's borderline fundamentalist, but not literalist. He does the harmonizing science and bible thing. 2. I mean he isn't brainwashed into thinking his bipolar is demonic possession. 3. Medicine helps him. 4. Yeah, but science has proven time and again that it knows more than your book. 5. If there was evidence for a god, sure. I'd believe. I might not follow them, but I'd believe. 6. As far as I know, nothing isn't a viable state. 6 ½: That's a different question, but we have no reason to believe a being started anything. 7: A hippy, by today's standards. 8: According to which book? Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John? Are you rehearsing a play? 9: My atoms rejoin the rest of the universe. 10: Justice is a concept. I love it, but it's idealistic. Punishment isn't the best reason for justice; reformation is.

[@cy-one]

Just from your replies (I haven't listened to the video yet), I feel inclined to partake as well. I will edit my own replies to those questions for entertainment/comparison's sake :D 0) Germany, and "what do you do" could either be asking about my profession (Tech support) or my current activity (typing a comment while listening to a YT video). My story, _in very short words,_ would be: Born in Germany, spent childhood in the Caribbean Sea and Venezuela, joined early school (age 7) in Germany, been in Germany since then, had a bit of a "spiritual mumbo-jumbo" phase as a young teenager, but that didn't survive into adulthood. Been an atheist for all my life as far as I'm aware. Was unemployed for a couple of years (not a good experience), but life's looking better since the last 4'ish years. 1) No, I wasn't brought up in a religious home. My mother believed in all sorts of spiritual/shamanistic things, including supernatural powers. Never talked much about it with her, but considering the knowledge I have today, I'd probably classify her as either an agnostic deist or an agnostic atheist. My father (and generally speaking male figures) was mostly absent. Not seen or talked to him in roughly two decades now. Had religious classes in school until the age of 14 when I could switch to a more neutral "ethics" class, which I did. Nothing negative to say about Christianity at that point. No memorable events that have anything to do with religion at all. No creepy Christian uncles, no bothersome Christian teachers, no annoying visits to church on Sundays. Nothing, sorry. 2) What do I mean with what? Sorry, I don't see how that question applies to what I've said prior. 3) Think _what_ is true, came to _which_ conclusion? 4) Considered what? If you're referring to the arguments brought forth in support of Christianity, then yes. I've considered them. And found them lacking, mostly because they seem to consist of logical fallacies. Bonus) Bit too big of a question to fit here. But generally speaking secular humanism as well as the Veil of Ignorance and "Don't do onto others what you don't want to be done to you" play big roles here. Super-simplified: Cause as little harm and as much happiness to other people as possible. 5) That depends _wholly_ on how you define "Christianity" and "Christian." To give two extreme examples: If by "Christianity being true" you *only mean God exists, Jesus existed and got zombiefied, etc...* then this would _not_ solve the issue of God being a mass-murderer that causes unnecessary harm left and right, as well as punishing people for following his plan. If, however, you mean *God exists, Jesus got zombiefied, God is just and perfect and holy, as is Jesus, no harm that is being done is actually bad and everything the two of them do is good", then that's a different story. Similarly, "Christian" could either mean someone who believes that God exists and Jesus got zombiefied, but still thinks God is a mass-murdering maniac. Or it could mean someone who believes God is just and perfect, etc.pp. If I would be convinced that God is a mass-murderer, I would obviously believe he existed, but I wouldn't worship him. This probably counts as "No." If I would be convinced that God is just, holy, perfect and whatever, then yes, I would follow his word and act accordingly. Considering most the overwhelming majority of Christians do wholeheartedly believe their god to be just and perfect, I will use that conclusion going forward. So yes*. If I'd become convinced that God and his actions as well as Jesus and his actions are truly just, good and perfect, then I would act in accordance with his word. Which would probably make me a Christian. 6a) Don't know. 6b) That's a different question. I agree with Paul's points in that regard, as they reflect my own opinions. I do not know if "everything" ever had a beginning. Our local presentation had "some form of change" currently called The Bing Bang. I've no idea what was "before." The start of our local presentation could very well be an inevitable result of the end of a previous universe with a chain of collapsing and expanding universes stretching out into infinity. Additionally, I don't accept the idea of fine-tuning. The mindbogglingly overwhelming part of everything we know to exist doesn't support life or is unnecessary for life to exist. Additionally², if we'd live in a universe that _doesn't_ support life, yet we live, that'd be more convincing to me than we living in a universe that supports life. Something that is spaceless and timeless exists nowhere and never - I do not find that convincing. Bonus) Does God exist? Did Jesus rise from the dead? I have not heard any valid and sound arguments to accept either proposition. And, just for completion's sake, I've also not been presented any credible scientific evidence for either proposition as well. 7a) Don't know. Could be an amalgamation of a dozen of Jewish doomsday rabbis called Yeshua. (lol, wrote this before Paul gave his answer :D) Maybe some of which pissed of the Roman's enough to get put to death by their favorite death penalty at the time. I've no reason to believe "the" (single) Jesus existed or experienced a resurrection. 7b) By "just" a man I'd mean someone like you or me. Earthly father, mother, no healing powers, no resurrection capabilities. 7c) Came to that conclusion because I haven't seen healing powers, resurrections or other mentioned supernatural phenomenon be demonstrated to even be possible. Until that happens, I think leprechauns are more believable (Irish midgets with gold? Sure.) than a biblical Jesus. 7d) That was convoluted. But considering (as just one of many examples) Luke 19:27, I do not believe Jesus to be a "good man." 8a) Don't know. Why did John Smith die for his religion if it's not true? Why did the 9/11 attackers die for their religion if it's not true? This is a false dichotomy of "either true, or a lie." 8b) Considering "people making stuff up/people being wrong about something/people misremembering stuff" is something that happens all the time and "people raising from the dead" isn't, I do have a different understanding of what "takes more faith" than Frank does. 9) My body will probably either be burnt or decompose somewhere. Without a functioning brain, my consciousness ceases to exist. 10) Dunno, do you believe in warm? The word is way, way, _way_ to vague. But in general I agree with what Paul said. I do not believe God's actions (including heaven and hell) to be "justice."

[@killershrew1]

I'm response to your #2, my younger brother is severely bipolar and my idiot parents DID think it was demonic possession. So, instead of taking him to a doctor, they had their pastor perform multiple, intense exorcisms on him. When that didn't work (surprise surprise) they FINALLY took him to proper, scientific treatment. But the exorcism sessions further exacerbated the problem and he is pretty much beyond hope now. He's under so much heavy medication that he's a complete zombie...

[@Nixeu42]

​@@killershrew1 Then he's over medicated and should probably be on less medication. This is something that actually really pisses me off with how some people view mental disorders: the goal of medication should not be to make the person "normal" or tractable, it's supposed to help to moderate the self-destructive tendencies to a point the person taking the medication is more or less happy with. Trying to make the person over into someone else's preferred version of themselves is usually what makes them reject medication and treatment entirely, and what makes them feel like they become someone else when medicated. If I had to guess, and I'm very sorry if this comes across as harsh, the reason he's "beyond hope" is because his emotional connection to his family has been heavily damaged, possibly to the point where any love he might have felt for you all is nearly gone. I can't speak for everyone, but concern for those around me is a huge part of why I take my medication, possibly more so than my own well-being. I've seen people say hateful, awful shit in the heat of the moment and utterly wreck interpersonal relationships when unmedicated for bipolar multiple times. You know those dark, uncharitable thoughts you have about people sometimes? The sort that would really hurt the other person because there's a kernel of truth to them? Mania can put you in a state where you're willing to say them, even if you really care about the other person. And that's even worse when the person has genuine reason to be angry. It's also the state where you're most likely to get violent or hurt yourself. Depression is way less dangerous of the two extremes. Honestly, what your brother needs isn't just medication, it's therapy. Medication won't help fix the trauma he experienced. But he needs to want to get said therapy on some level in order for it to work. He needs a reason to want to get better. One of the strongest and most effective reasons is usually other people. He also needs to find a therapist he feels he can trust. That can also be a challenge, especially with that sort of trauma. That said, he's only "beyond hope" if he accepts that he is, and he's more likely to do that if you give up too. It's definitely a rough road, trying to find a medication balance that keeps a person on a fairly even keel, but it really is worth it, and it's definitely possible.

[@jeremyrodriguez324]

If I was still a Christian, I would have thought this is the most brilliant thing ever. But now as a skeptic, all these little sessions for Christians just sound like jibberish and scrambling to convince not only others, but also themselves, that Christianity is true.

[@leob3447]

I was thinking the exact same thing

[@fred_derf]

That's what they're designed to do.

[@byebry]

Yes. I got into apologetics as a struggling christian. But I took the salvation of other people seriously, so I tried to apply my knowledge of apologetics to win souls. It took a while, but I finally had to admit that apologetics bounced off of other people and stuck to me. It was so ineffective and unconvincing. That's when I had to look at apologetics again, with a little more objectivity and honesty. And that was what finally broke my belief.

[@ericpierce3660]

It took some time after I deconverted, but eventually the "Christianese" I was so used to hearing began to sound like a foreign language.

[@leob3447]

@@ericpierce3660 That's why I'm so fond of Seth Andrews "Christianity made me sound like an idiot" talk (and now book)

[@billcook4768]

The other problem with the CS Lewis thing is that someone can be a great teacher AND a lunatic. Issac Newton wrote tons of stuff that was flat out nuts… doesn’t stop us from studying calculus and gravity.

[@guiagaston7273]

I am a simple man. I see Turek and I click and I laugh and I laugh and I laugh.

[@tetsujin_144]

I'm still waiting for him to hunt some dinosaurs.

[@toddramsey6893]

I really appreciate you, @Paulogia. Thanks for this thoughtful response.

[@Paulogia]

My pleasure!

[@ryanrountree2363]

I'm first cause of Jesus!

[@thewick-j1837]

That is cheating.

[@Locust13]

Ah but Jesus said the first shall be last.

[@Paulogia]

K is right

[@DeludedOne]

@@Locust13 He also said, according to one of the Gospels, "Happy are those who do not see and yet believe."

[@khrowv]

I've been wanting to see more reactions to Frank Turek. My dad follows him closely and uses his words as sources, and even though I know so much is wrong with what he claims, I've been wanting to hear what people like Paulogia said on his 'work'.

[@Paulogia]

Here's the Paulogia / Turek playlist... kzbin.info/aero/PLpdBEstCHhmXQisbhd5b4BKeOgZrXvets

[@khrowv]

@@Paulogia Yes! Thank you

[@AlexOvTheAbyss]

I've had many bad experiences with many different christians. It makes me think that the majority of them don't practice what the preach, and question if they even believe it. It hasn't, however, made me think christianity isn't true - that was completely due to thinking about christianity logically, rationally, and comparing it to what I can actually see.

[@robertadsett5273]

The right issues? That’s rather illuminating

[@X1Y0Z0]

Always enjoy your vids

[@Paulogia]

thank you

[@ladyselenafelicitywhite1596]

Me too 🙋🏼‍♀️

[@myrawest]

10:40 Yes! I came to this same conclusion on my own and I'm so relieved to hear others have too.

[@valeerasanguinar850]

Why would people suffer and die for what they know to be false? Hmm… why would an “atheist” suffer eternally for rejecting what they know to be true?

[@MarkSheeres]

That’s a great insight! Never thought of that.

[@PauliePizza]

It's amazing how the ending is the beginning. The beauty of circular reasoning.

[@Huntingslife1]

Sometimes I wonder how such great channels don’t get the traction others do, Paul do you have one of the best atheist/theist Point counterpoint channel on KZbin say hi to Shannon for me lol

[@Paulogia]

thank you, Michael. I will.

[@jeffmartin-g8r]

We don't need a third stick to compare two sticks! I love it!

[@freddan6fly]

Frank's script is great if you want the atheist to go away because he/she heard the already defeated arguments 10,000 times.

[@CharlesHuckelbery]

Well done and thanks

[@Abstract_zx]

i love the unambiguous "yes." at 9:41, because theyre clearly looking for a no

[@NDHFilms]

Technical question for Paul: when you have the mini-Frank bouncing up and down, what is controlling that? Is is just a loop of movements, or is it tied to volume? Like, if Frank was speaking louder (a scary thought, I know), would the mini-Frank move more?

[@JerryPenna]

Frank is such a good salesman! Always be prepared to answer any objects and be super duper confident in yourself. Buyer be ware!

[@probablynotmyname8521]

Im just imagining how this would go down in reality… nearly everyone would walk off from some loon that starts asking you about your upbringing. We arent npcs frank. Also, if christianty were true it doesnt mean that people should start worshipping a god or following a book that has more issues and holes than a dan brown novel. It does not follow that if christianity is true then the only reasonable choice is to follow christianity.

[@Valfara770]

Yes, to both points. If he asked the 5th question I would say "No, why would I want to worship such in insane and fickle god that thinks genocide is a logical answer when people don't worship him?"

[@stevewebber707]

I would ask him to provide a Christianity that could be true, before I would ponder whether I could believe it to be true. I would need him to demonstrate Christianity as a logically coherent concept to start with. I find it incredibly frustrating, and a bit dishonest for him to phrase things this way. Because considerations of the truth value of Christianity is what defines my atheism. And perhaps we should pause his onslaught of incessant questions there, and ask him if Christianity is false, would he become an atheist?

[@memitim171]

Surely the only reasonable choice would be to take the chance he doesn't smite us all while we frantically research the possibility of deicide?

[@citris1]

High level dialog. Thanks.

[@T2revell]

This guy is truly the used car salesman of apologists. I can’t believe he didn’t just stop talking about this shit after the late great hitch put him in his place back in 2009-10

[@SteveCollins527]

The way I load the dishwasher is objectively the right way to do it

[@DanTheMeek]

25:30 / Question 10 - This is one of those things that even back when I was a believer I didn't understand why other christians would say. Christianity is, at its heart, about celebrating injustice, if you want justice to be done, you'd be unhappy if christianity is true because the core concept of it is that there is a corrupt judge who has decided not to be just and follow the law, but rather, at least in some cases, to ignore it and let the guilty go free. That "in some cases" is what really makes this a bad question to ask as well because even if you don't believe in justice, then the fact some people will still be punished will also put this god judge in a poor light. For this to sound like a positive thing you'd need to talk to some one who specifically believes in only occasional justice, they can't want justice to always be served, or never served, and whats more, they need to want what determines when people aren't served justice to be completely unrelated to their crimes, their good deeds, or their character, but on their credulity to specific claims. I'm not saying its impossible such a person exist, but I'm confident that rarity of such people would make this question only likely to push away 99.9999999% of all people you talk to.

[@13shadowwolf]

Every time I heard Frankie speaking, it really feels like he's trying to sell me something that he Knows is broken. Frankie is like a used car salesman, trying to sell me a junker that will break as soon as it's off the lot.

[@86645ut]

Seriously, how many times has this guy been set straight about every apologetic point he makes? He and his gullible followers need to understand one meaning of insanity: doing the same thing repetitively and expect a different result.

[@JayMaverick]

Remember, this guy makes millions spouting this bollocks. He has no reason to change his views. His followers are looking for excuses to believe things they know are utterly ridiculous, because it's more comfortable and convenient.

[@FuzzyJeffTheory]

I hate that “definition”. There are plenty of reasons to repeat a process and expect different results.

[@86645ut]

@@FuzzyJeffTheory , you are assuming that his refusal to change his opinion is NOT indicative of abnormal mental function. Of course, that definition is hyperbole, but it makes a point.

[@FuzzyJeffTheory]

I am not assuming anything. The statement is a gross generalization, and does not even work as hyperbole in my opinion.

[@86645ut]

@@FuzzyJeffTheory , that you are entitled to. We disagree.

[@blairwakeham]

Keep up the great work!!

[@axer3515]

I remember when it was considered rude to ask people who you don't know what religion they follow. Politics too. Today you can't get through an introduction without both subjects being brought up. I went through high school without ever knowing a teammate was Jewish. I think going back to this standard would lead to better dialogue.

[@tetsujin_144]

22:26 - "What motive would they have to invent a resurrected Jesus?" It makes a good story. The hero dies at the end, but it turns out he meant to do that. Believers faced with harsh realities of the world (things like a Roman army holding power over their nation) could look to the story as an example of their hero facing those harsh realities, meeting the end that logic would dictate (and an end that may have been public knowledge to some extent) but still emerging victorious in the end. People like to believe in things like that. People will believe things they like whether they are true or not.

[@martifingers]

Another answer might be that a small group of Jewish Christians were traumatised by the death of their leader who they genuinely believed to be the Messiah of prophecy. However as Jesus was murdered he did not fulfil the prophecies that concerned him providing imminent leadership in defeating the Romans and establish the Messianic Age. So in their grief and existential fear they re-interpret the texts to produce a myth (that had parallels in other parts of the Graeco-Roman world) with much more symbolic and supernatural elements. It's not lying or deception , just a very human way of coping with loss, fear and cognitive dissonance.

[@vaiyt]

Also because a lot of the cool people clubs were doing it at the time.

[@memitim171]

Honestly just asking that question means you're a snake, there's no need to answer it at that point.

[@dacritter8397]

"I got to know them after I deconverted...". It's amazing that most of us have similar stories. Those with whom we associated prior to deconversion became ostracizing whereas those Christians we meet after are far more tolerant. Not all, of course, but anecdotally it appears correct more often than not.

[@streetsdisciple0014]

Doug Pinecreek has a video called “10 questions pastors/ apologists don’t like. This one ought to be interesting.

[@lpronovost84]

Well done. Ty

[@stlchucko]

“You need god to have science because you need an orderly universe.” How could a universe be “orderly” when the “miracles” Frank says his god does directly contradict the order he admits is required for science to work?

[@vaiyt]

If the intervention of a conscious mind is necessary for things to have consistent properties, then which mind allowed god to exist?

[@memitim171]

@@vaiyt "None, he's just eternal. He didn't need to be allowed to exist coz he was just always there." Is the default answer, honestly I can see why people would have bought this in the past. But then we began to understand time...and the whole thing just collapses. What do words like "eternal", "consistent" "created" and "always" even mean when there is no time? But really the argument only gets that far if I'm generous and grant a *lot* of unprovables. We can easily defeat this argument with something we can prove: The universe is not orderly, in fact it spends all it's time purging itself of any semblance of order and it's doing a pretty good job...so if god is supposed to be keeping it all orderly, then he's doing a pretty bad job.

[@nathanmiller9918]

If a belief requires me to argue that slavery could be "objectively moral," I'm gonna find a new belief.

[@XarXXon]

No one can project (psychologically) like Frank Turek.

[@Critical_Capybara]

thanks Paul

[@michaeljames4509]

I didn't think it was possible but Frank Turek has made me more skeptical of Christianity.

[@BackupChannel329]

I actually recently talked with someone who did not believe in objective truth/reality. If I understood his position correctly, (and trust me I and many others had lots of questions for him) he is one of those people that believes truth is determined by agreement among collective consciousness. And that there wasn't necessarily a physical reality that we were all in or at least not the same physical reality necessarily. So to people who think the Earth is flat, that is the reality for them and for those who think it's round that is their reality. He rejected the idea that we can know one way or the other or that there was even a physical object called Earth that we are standing on at all. I don't understand the appeal or see any usefulness in this concept but it sure was a fascinating conversation.

[@galacticbob1]

That sounds like he's not far from hard solipsism. I'm not sure that anyone *can* prove that there exists a reality outside your own personal experience. It's just that there certainly *appears* to be, and that reality appears to be deterministic and predictable (e.g. if I release this object, it will drop to the ground). You can do a lot just from the assumption that objective reality exists, whereas the alternative is, "I'm not sure that anything exists, including me." One ends up being way more useful. 😅

[@iluvtacos1231]

God, that opening was fucking BEAUTIFUL Paul.

[@somersetcace1]

Incredibly well done response to his "instructions." You picked apart the litany of logical fallacies very well. I must say, I don't know how old you are, but to have come from the upbringing you did and transition to the type of critical thinking you have is quite impressive. I wasn't raised in such a home, so it's always been difficult to relate to those who have, but I see many, (especially newer skeptics, if you will) that tend to use the same irrational thought patterns, but in reverse. You certainly have not done that here. Again, quite impressive.

[@TrueCA7777]

Why is there something rather than nothing? Do we even know that nothing is possible? Have we ever seen nothing?

[@kevincasson9848]

You Paulogia is the personification of commensense!!

[@feedingravens]

As the answer to every question is "Goddidit", this is the ultimate curiosity terminator. When you have a default anster to everything, and that is also the exhaustive and only possible explanation, nothing has to be explored, researched, explained. Fallback into the dark ages...

[@flowingafterglow629]

#5; If Christianity is true, would you become a Christian? My answer: What do you mean by that? I gotta say, #2 works well all over the place, doesn't it.

[@Nameless-pt6oj]

That question is meant to penetrate a person’s true desire: are they really pursuing truth? If they were then they’d become a Christian on the spot if they found it to be true, if not then they would not be searching for truth. If Islam were true, I’d be a Muslim, but the evidence for Christianity is too good to deny, so I’m a Christian.

[@michaelbenson5677]

@@Nameless-pt6oj That's not accurate unless your definition of Christian is "a person who accepts that the god depicted in the Bible exists" and no more than that. If being Christian also means commitment to a specific code of behavior, love/approval/worship of the god of the Bible, or anything else beyond simple conviction, then there is no implicit dissonance between acknowledging that conviction and declining to become a Christian.

[@flowingafterglow629]

What does it mean to "become a Christian"? If Christianity were proved true, then I would believe Christianity is true. I don't know that I'd "be a Christian," because I don't know what that necessarily means. You have added a lot of presumptive baggage to your "search for truth."

[@TheZinmo]

Kermit! Yeah! Rainbow Connection! Thank you Paul. IMO the biggest Oscar snub ever.

[@danielpage575]

Appreciate your work

[@theologicalintrospection]

There is no justice but what we make.

[@darthsombra2102]

Question: If Jesus realy rose from the dead, what would his first words be? Answer: "BRAINS!!"

[@classicsciencefictionhorro1665]

So if Jesus was an astrophysicist his first word would be, "branes."

[@spike238]

Religious sales & marketing seminar ... how to boost your sales , how to improve your approach , how to seal the deal , ...

[@AsmodeusDHare]

I had that 'Do you believe in justice?" line and I said "Oh yeah I do. I mean I looked to the bible for how justice should be done... and I read about Elisha so when some kids started mocking me for being bald... I had my dogs tear them apart and I am just in doing so since kids mocked Elisha for being bald and were killed by bears" The horrified look on their face when I said that only deepened when I told them I smashed in the head of my cheating gf with a rock and quoted the biblical law on adultery.

[@memitim171]

Quality, did you follow up by telling them they were poor excuses for christians for not praising your actions? :D

[@Nykona-Sharrowkyn]

Frank Turek .. Denyrealityasuarus hunter 😎

[@tetsujin_144]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately goes to "Turok: Dinosaur Hunter" every time Frank Turek comes up. :)

[@TaeyxBlack]

29:18 here we can see frank conflate “i believe in justice” with “i believe there is a cosmic entity that will ensure justice is meted out”. when i say “i believe in justice”, i mean “i believe we as humans should endeavor to treat each other fairly, seek to restore those who have been harmed, and incentivize perpetrators of harm to not commit harm in the future.” the fact that i don’t like that some people get away with harmful behaviors in no way implies the existence of some inter-dimensional justice-giver.

[@davidhale2682]

One concept I'd love to explore is that Jesus was likely an amalgamation of those many apocalyptic preachers as opposed to any one of them

[@galacticbob1]

There's multiple ways even to look at that concept of "amalgam Jesus". If we consider Jesus the literary character versus Jesus the historical figure; it's possible that Jesus the historical figure did and said some things, and after his death his story got mashed together with similar preachers. There's the possibility that Jesus the historical character did and said some things, and after his death his story got mythologized, with authors using elements from contemporary popular literature to create a Hebrew pastiche of a traditional Roman role model. And then there's the possibility that there was no Jesus the historical figure, and the literary character that we have is a hybrid of Jewish/Greek/Roman stories: a fable created for the education and enlightenment of the Hellenized Jew of the first/second century. Of course, those possibilities all overlap in some ways - the question is how would we go about distinguishing them based on evidence? Once we have concluded that the literary Jesus is an amalgam of characters, what would be the deciding factors to determine how much Jesus is based on history and how much is literary invention? I think a great place to start is with some of the more obviously "influenced" Jesus works, such as the Gospel of Peter, Pistis Sophia, or Protoevangelium of James. All of those have actually been found in more than just fragments, and the text is available completely free online. They are pretty short, you could read all three easily in an afternoon! 😄 Notice the obvious textual influences found in those three (although in very different ways); both Christians and non-believers today agree that these stories are fiction. In "Pistis" especially there is a strong Greek influence, and an entirely distinct cosmogony that Jesus is a part of! I think a read through of some of the apocrypha, where any particular version of the Jesus story just didn't quite make it to being considered "history" by a large number of people, would help you get some perspective on the situation. I know it did for me!

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

"we" (the atheist community) should crowdfund a film that chronicles the most likely reality of Jesus' life as an anti Roman rabbi

[@gristlybillow7050]

Would I be a Christian If God was real? No. I. Not saying if God was proved to be real I wouldn't believe in him. I'm saying I don't agree with the teachings of Christianity or its methods

[@markhackett2302]

I would believe God was real if proof God was real was presented. But being a christian is a different question. If it wasn't, then Buddhists are christians too. And pantheists. And deists.

[@nickmooney776]

if any one like Frank Turek ever approach and tryed this shit i would get a way from him as fast as possible.

[@michaelsommers2356]

If I were asked, "Do you believe in justice?", I'd ask, what do you mean by "believe in"?

[@ViRoseLaBianca]

I love listening to Paul get increasingly annoyed as the questions go on. Subtle humor but so good!

[@Paulogia]

😚

[@alexmcd378]

Should be tittled how to lose secular friends in ten steps

[@whitneyowen8551]

Love this format with open and honest responses to people like Turek.

[@merbst]

I was watching some Godless Engineer videos, until I heard "For the Bible tells me so!" which inspired me to see what Paulogia is up!

[@Paulogia]

yay!

[@georgez987]

No plan survives first contact with the enemy. Someone with any knowledge in this are, theist or not, can break this track easily.

[@ivory7182]

So it's harder to believe that a religion could form from lies or mistakes when it's Christianity, than to believe in a blatantly unproven supernatural being. How exactly does he think all the other religions in the world formed? Are they all true too?

[@Groffili]

And another thing that amuses me massively about Turek's approach: every single one of his questions (well, after No.2) would need to be initially countered with his No.2. "What do you mean by that?" But I fear counter-questions aren't included in his script. It would be interesting to see how he would react to that. One would hope that he at least would react better than the poor people he send out to pester atheists with his conversation-controlling questions.

[@Ugly_German_Truths]

Also pretty much all his assertions invite a "that is a pretty hefty "If" you presume there Mr Turek"

[@flowingafterglow629]

"Have you ever considred....?" My response: why should I?

[@xbk9762]

I have a question. According to Frank :if Justice is being served by God then Hitler would go to hell and let’s pretend he didn’t convert into Christianity before he committed suicide.what about the Jews Hitler killed ? Because according to Franks system of justice God would not let the Jews come into heaven either because after Jesus Christ revealed himself to this Earth they didn’t accept him as Lord and Saviour and his offer of Salvation. Would that not imply that at least most of the Jewish people would also go to the same place (Hell) as Hitler himself ? I was just curious about that maybe some one can answer this. My English is not that good but I tried my best so please excuse my mistakes 🙂

[@togborne]

As Frank would say “HEY MAN.. THIS MAKES SENSE!!”

[@mikenash7049]

Have you done a video on C S Lewis, who is considered by some British Christians as being one of the greatest, if not the greatest, Christian apologist?

[@Noromdiputs]

Trusting anyone who can resuscitate themselves after death might be the worst standard of trustworthiness I have ever heard.

[@spectreskeptic3493]

Why would the cause of the Universe have to be powerful?...never mind requiring intelligence. We have lots of examples of something small, simple, and virtually powerless triggering and cascading in to much larger, significant, or catastrophic events. Flip one bit in a feedback loop and you can brick the most powerful computer.

[@Florkl]

So Turek is saying that if I predict I will die and be resurrected, then take a pill to stop my heart before having someone with a defibrillator revive me, he’ll believe anything I say?

[@pauligrossinoz]

You're a god! 🤪

[@tombudd1281]

I would say the people on a "happiness quest" would be the Christians who say they don't care if Christianity is true or God is real.

[@darrennew8211]

It makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. I've never had an actual conversation like this, even with evangelicals.

[@theophilussogoromo3000]

Anyone know anybody that was a former atheist turned Christian by listening to Frank Turek?🤔

[@kristofftaylovoski60]

Engage California Conference 2015 - Session 3 Calvary Chapel Chino Hills, CA.... Frank Turek : "You won the sperm race"..... I dare anyone of you to sit through this one....

[@glenjohnson9302]

He asks why someone would make things up. Look at all of the people even now who make up religions or religious beliefs, even in the Christian world. I have even had a guy preach Christianity to me and when I told him I did not believe what he said he suddenly said he was a God and when I die he was going to make me his slave in heaven as punishment. When I was able to quote the Bible to prove he could not be a God he made up some books reasons why he is. His reasoning could maybe place him as an Angle by his own logic but insisted he was a God and was second only to the one God. He was an extream but I have met hundreds of people who make up there own religions or extream variations to existing religions. So sure, people could easily made up Christianity and the books of the Bible.

[@Ashamanic]

“Is that true” is an inane response. I’m not sure what someone would mean if they said “there is no truth”, but unless they also deny that mathematics exist and that 1+1=2, clearly they accept that some things are true.

[@Ashamanic]

The “moral law” is also different from both scientific and legal laws, in that I can look both those types up and quote them exactly if someone wants to know more.

[@Ashamanic]

Also, if Jesus said “your sins are forgiven”, I see no reason to put him in the “bad person” category. Same with the other things Turek quotes. If Christianity is not true, and there is no god, the good/bad depend on what he was trying to achieve.

[@Beaverswings]

A question: if you found out that Christianity was true (that is, I guess, that all the things in the Bible actually happened), would you be a Christian? Paul, you said 'yes.' I don't get it. Wouldn't the moral thing be to not worship the God of the Old Testament? If Christianity were true, I'd join the resistance.

[@TheAsaoirc]

Paul has been pretty clear that he would return lordship of his life to Jesus if he were convinced. He doesn't take the Hitchens angle of the Old Testament God being a horrible being.

[@Paulogia]

I didn't say it would be the moral thing, I said it would be the pragmatic thing.

[@TheAsaoirc]

@@Paulogia that's also true. And understandable. If it were true, resistance would be truly pointless, as well.

[@metroidmayhem8463]

Turek's methods are about as effective as a screen door on a submarine.

[@Soapy-chan_old]

If Christianity would turn out to be true, I wouldn't become a christian. I wouldn't believe in anything it says, I would KNOW it. And I wouldn't worship God or Jesus or anything that would make me a christian.

[@larryfulkerson4505]

Chistianity got started when an April Fool's joke got way the fuck out of hand.

[@yorks_atheist3069]

I think Franks doing the people who follow him a great disservice as he's set expectations that this will work, and the first time they try it, it will fail

[@sobertillnoon]

If christianity were proven true I would totally believe in it. I still wouldn't become a christian, though. Heaven sounds lame as crap.

[@DonHall666]

That Simpsons reference was so on point.

[@pigdog126]

"O.k , the two key ones aren't even on the list. Cool " ROFL