TOTL: How much do DACS matter?

[@김지훈-u6s]

Properly engineered dacs that cost a few hundred will probably be enough. Anything above that can technically be better, but realistically, it will be very difficult to distinguish them in a blind test.

[@FuukanaTV]

I really enjoy these kinds of conversation which look on both high-end and budget point. It's really informative.

[@Meta-Drew]

"If you have less than $500 to spend on electronics you are pretty screwed" "To get a reasonable sounding DAC you are usually going above 2 grand" Me, looking at $100-200 DACs: Welp, guess this conversation wasn't for me

[@Kaiggg75]

A reasonable dac at this level of hifi I would say would go above 2 grand, so you are right

[@SubjectE57]

S.M.S.L VMV D1se and Denafrips Ares II are both really good DACs for under $1K.

[@fuzecap]

@@Kaiggg75 No

[@harackmw]

2000 dollar dacs...I'll believe it when I see a real double blind test with multiple sources, and see how y'all do.

[@Zelldinchtjr]

That's why everyone is so afraid to do blind tests. It'll reveal how much placebo effect they're under. That and sales will go down.

[@harackmw]

@@Zelldinchtjr Yea that is the impression I am getting after only a bit of research. Not too many channels on this hobby want to even go there personally, nevermind professionally.

[@Zelldinchtjr]

@@harackmw You and I are among the minority and all we can do is try our best to save the gullible folk some hard earned money, bruh.

[@harackmw]

@@ZelldinchtjrIndeed, I think it is important. I see a lot of comments where people feel like they are missing out because they are pressured to spend so much money beyond a decent headphone itself.

[@Zelldinchtjr]

@@harackmw I agree with you. I still rock a JDS OL DAC and I recently bought a Schiit Modius because I was still under the belief that balanced connection sounded superior to unbalanced. Surprisingly, it doesn't. I just want to prevent other people from doing the same ignorant shit i did. Granted, the Modius is measurably a great DAC with multiple inputs and outputs, so it's more versatile, but that's about it in its superiority. Tonality, soundstage, noise levels were the same as the OL DAC!

[@goldpieceleo]

It's funny when they say it can have a huge impact but in reality it will only add a very very small increase in the quality of the sound.

[@JeradBenge]

I look at it as a relative impact. A bad DAC ruins everything after it. An adequate DAC does it's job well enough to not be a glaring deficiency. A good DAC can be lifted up by a great amp. A great DAC is transparent, meaning it presents the source flawlessly to the rest of the chain, and allows them to achieve their full potential. The difference between bad and good is night and day, but the difference between good and great is easier to overlook. It's always easier to overlook something that's invisible when it's doing everything right.

[@goldpieceleo]

@@JeradBenge for whatever they are they're not worth their price especially when you go higher you'll only get a very minimal improvement.

[@JeradBenge]

@@goldpieceleo Then don't buy one... Enjoy your turntables.

[@HiFiInsider]

Eric looking smart with the new fade.

[@corneliussmith5875]

I just got my first Bluetooth dac with the btr5 and I’m so excited. I’ve been using a type c to 3.5 with a built in dac but I was looking for more.

[@RyuMasterEX]

The holo spring may and topping d90 measure about the same but there's an architectural difference & power supply difference, but I wonder how different they sound.

[@apj.-.-.-.-.-.-.-119]

extremely different

[@RyuMasterEX]

@@apj.-.-.-.-.-.-.-119 exactly and that tells you how important/relevant measurements are lol

[@apj.-.-.-.-.-.-.-119]

@@RyuMasterEX pretty much nothing is audible on DACs nowdays because of how good stuff has gotten, the ASR cult always tell you that nothing is audible on a schiit magni or something then continue to talk about measurements on $2k dacs like it should matter if its not audible anyway, i dont even bother looking at them anymore. also the holo bliss should be coming out soon as well as new models for pretty much every other holo product, super exciting the bliss is meant to be an incredibly powerful headphone amp and pre amp and hopefully it will sound like other holo products its in with a shot at being the best hp amp full stop when it releases

[@skandiaart]

@@apj.-.-.-.-.-.-.-119 geeking out about a dacs performance while also saying performance doesn’t matter doesn’t contradict each other. You can still want the best objective performance while it may doesn’t matter for the subjective part… Dacs are in fact as good as it needs to be. Most dacs do -80db distortion and better which is ~16bits of useable audio. There is a reason why Phillips choose 16bit in the 80s because it was what was needed to audible transparent play and store music, beyond that is just useless for the human ear/brain. So logically there are no big audible differences between the dacs because it can’t be, technically there more than certain is but if that matters for the listener; no.

[@omenworks]

Can you please make a dacs tier list video? :)

[@ConnorHammond]

I wonder if this still holds true. I've heard others recently say, spending more than $400 on a DAC is a waste of money. Has the DAC market come this far in the last 2 years?

[@TOM7952]

Even budget DAC tech has been excellent for 3-4 years now. Abyss is a snake oil company and a bunch of clowns. Go look at how expensive their cables cost which don't measure any better than cheap cables, but they'll tell you the opposite to rip people off who are gullible.

[@rokiedecentra9656]

there is a point of good enough beyond which it doesn't justify the minor increase, you start getting into placebo....

[@xeniavader]

For me, DACs don't matter much, once you get above a certain level. Minimal difference. Maybe a slight flavor change or fine tune. My Yggy isn't that much better than my Mdac vs my Hugo. The headphones matter the most by far. Then amp.

[@DocToxicTF2]

I agree.

[@johnratcliffe6438]

MDAC is hideous. Yggy is excellent. I am concerned you can't tell the difference.

[@johnratcliffe6438]

The source matters the most. Then headphones/speakers. Then DAC. Then amplification.

[@DocToxicTF2]

@@johnratcliffe6438 I go with source > headphones/speakers > amp > dac

[@johnratcliffe6438]

@@DocToxicTF2 Whatever works for you 😊👍

[@hushpuppykl]

It matters a lot. It’s not just the 1’s n 0’s but also the implementation of the chip and the analogue output section. Same chip in different DACs do not sound the same. Even streamer transports make a difference. It’s more than just 1’s n 0’s. I’ve tested a few and the difference is so obvious.

[@hifix-man319]

Are you referring to RME adi dac2 when talking about flat sounding?

[@SiggieVRC]

What do you guys think about THX aaa tech ??

[@quangnguyennhat606]

clean, clear, easy to make amp adds a lot of power. So if you have a good music source, don't want to change the color. It's the best option. I prefer to use it hearing classical, symphony, things like that...

[@x32i77]

Which DAC do you recommend for the abyss 1266 phi tc ? I am planning to get the abyss 1266 Phi tc with the eleven audio Formula s and perhabs an elf audio xiaudio powerman psu but I dont know what DAC I should get .

[@shayan-gg]

ares r2r reseister ladder dac

[@paulhealy9413]

I have to say I laughed at Superconductor V's being used for a podcast. High End from top to bottom lol! Keep the great vids coming guys :)

[@mobbaddictchannel]

I'm always surprised how much detail my electrostat and planar rigs can extract from the crappiest source and music. The limit is the driver itself.

[@moosicolday5160]

Contradiction: "The sound of my equipment is extremely detailed, but the driver can't keep up"

[@TheRealAudioDidact]

Will the Denafrips Artemis HPA 3.3Watts @ 47 Ohms work well with the Abyss AB-1266 Phi TC?

[@matthewweflen]

Or just get a high-end DAP that can drive your headphones and leave it at that.

[@adeadcrab]

60% headphones, 25% amp, 15-20% DAC. DAC gets a little less because most PCs have halfway decent DACs nowadays

[@moosicolday5160]

There are no PCs with halfway decent sound.

[@owen-ng8oe]

@@moosicolday5160 my motherboard has a surprisingly good sounding one, search gigabyte b350 gaming 3, lots of gaming motherboards have decent audio

[@BlackBearInvesting]

99% headphones, .8% amp, .2% DAC. I will challenge you for $1000 challenger if you are near Philadelphia.

[@chefsteve8381]

@@BlackBearInvesting that's 109% lol .but i agree

[@LtColDavenport]

@@chefsteve8381 Nope, there are dots, meaning 0.8 and 0.2 that sum to 1.

[@CristiHolerga]

I can clearly hear the difference between the dac built into the phone and my Fiio Q5s. I even hear the difference between the cheaper Ibasso DC05 and my phone. My laptop is about the same quality as the phone. So my opinion is that if you have some decent headphones (not necessarily top of the line), it's worth buying a better DAC. The headphones I own are Sony XM4 and Allen & Heath Xone XD2-53... So, although they offers great sound (especially Allen&Heath which have the largest 53mm drivers on the market), they are not exactly the best on the market. And yet, with them I can clearly hear the difference between the dac buit into the phone and the Fiio Q5s.

[@erickallage]

could you imagine if they just said get the apple usb-c adapter and don't waste your time.

[@agoogleuser9025]

erick allage I would like to try that actually. Seems only lightning dongles are available around.

[@x-ray3431]

Abyss would go out of business then... lol

[@metalblakedowns]

I find it matters quite a bit. Even though I'm definitely not in the 'high-end' crowd or have tons of equipment. I have a portable Dragonfly Black that I use on my iPhone with a pair of IEM's and I find it makes a crazy difference. I don't have hundreds of dollar IEM's either, but the difference is very much noticeable no doubt. Can breathe some life into the equipment you have I find

[@SSchithFoo]

That is a dac/amp not a dac. It is the amp that plays the actual role in making things sound better.

[@edwarddodge7937]

As the quality of the amp and headphones rises, DACs make a bigger and bigger difference. Nowadays that means you can start noticing significant improvements even with gear just beyond entry-level. Great amps and headphones can’t play music and details that the DAC has already lost or obscured.

[@AFlyingCookieLOL]

No it doesn't even on very expensive hardware. Even low end DACs are already beyond most headphones - headphones are the largest difference if you already have what it needs to drive them. Proper DACs should not have lost any details etc. I dare you to do a double blind test.

[@edwarddodge7937]

@@AFlyingCookieLOL It also depends on your own ears. For example, with workhorse level stuff like an Asgard 3 amp and HD6XX headphones I can tell the difference between a Modi, Modi Multibit, and Ares II. Note: Ares II blows the others out of the water.

[@AFlyingCookieLOL]

@@edwarddodge7937 Do a double blind test at the same gain with a control. HD series headphones all have "warmer" sound due to it's roll off. Transparent and accurate? No. If you have sufficient power, there should be zero difference. If there is, one of them is either not designed for the load you are giving it is crap. It doesn't depend on your ears that is audiophoolery. The largest difference occurs at the drivers, always have been and always will be considering the amp is sufficient.

[@harackmw]

@@AFlyingCookieLOL Audiophoolery, nice. I completely agree.

[@cedarandsound]

I just got a Schiit Magnius headphone amp for my AB-1266, it's a 200 dollar headphone amp for 5,000 headphones, and based on the science and reviews of it's balanced output, it should be amazing. My DAC is a Roland Studio Capture in one room, and a Marantz SR8012 in the living room. We'll see how that sounds.

[@spartanV48]

I kind of doubt the Magnius, even with the specs and reviews, I doubt many are really using it for 1266. You are not getting what you payed for out of your 1266 with a magnius

[@cedarandsound]

@@spartanV48 had it for 5 months and I would say I definitely am

[@sml2238]

I could be wrong but I don't think you have to spend thousands on a DAC to get good performance. At least that's not what the measurements and such on ASR tell me. In fact the Mytek Brooklyn DAC had pretty poor distortion due to a baked in 2nd order harmonic distortion in the attenuator (for a warm sound) and an MQA implementation that clipped the non MQA content. Maybe this isn't true for all of their DAC's but I'm just saying objectively you can get excellent performance for much less than thousands, often better than some boutique multi-thousand dollar DAC. Stuff like the RME ADI-2 and the Topping D70 come to mind.

[@robrider838]

Science evolves and science will one day prove there is something missing from the measurements over at ASR in relation to music pleasure.

[@sml2238]

@@robrider838 Perhaps, but if that's the case are you assuming expensive DAC creators know some science that everyone else doesn't? I don't think so, but if that's what you need to believe to justify your purchase than I'm okay with that :)

[@robrider838]

@@sml2238 All I know is they (and in particular Lampizator - I have the Amber) know something - whether it be science or maybe an art form - to create particularly good sounding DACs. Over the years I've migrated from a simple DAC in a receiver to higher end DACs of Lampizator and the latest generation are exceptional - well to my ears anyway :). As music enthusiasts we are lucky to be alive today. It wasn't that long ago that I totally dismissed digital as a format, but it's come a long way. I've also heard very good DACs at cheaper price points. Great music quality is available to a lot of people these days. Enjoy.

[@Hari-kx2er]

@@sml2238 Most ASR measurements don't contribute to audible differences. Human ears are not as sophisticated as measuring gear. Besides R2R Dacs in general measure poorly, however a lot of audiophiles prefer them to better measuring Delta Sigma counterparts such as by Topping due to their analog sound signature. Besides there are many good Dacs and Amps of various prices which were rated poorly by ASR including certain Schiit, Earmen and Fiio products.

[@robrider838]

@@sml2238 Yes. It’s all about the analog section - not the DAC chip.

[@robrider838]

The younger guys need to listen to a decent DAC, like one by Lampizator. They also say the end piece of equipment is the most important. I agree with this, but then I believe the first piece of equipment - i.e. the source is the next most important - DAC or turntable. The older guy gets it - analog implementation of the DAC and power supply is key.

[@xyanide1986]

Yeah DAC design absolutely matters, it does color to a minor degree.

[@nicktan4530]

All dacs sounds the same by the way.

[@ABYSSHeadphones]

At the low end, pretty much. When you get into separates above a few hundred dollars into the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, they all differ.

[@nicktan4530]

@@ABYSSHeadphones Even ten of thousands of dollars, still no audible difference with true a/b. Granted, have not tried every 5 to 10 grand dacs so I cant speak for every dacs.

[@allansh828]

USB cables do sound very different

[@AFlyingCookieLOL]

No they do not, snake oil

[@moosicolday5160]

For me, the DAC makes the most difference, not the transducers. Even cheap drivers can scale with expensive DACs. Is not like the drivers have a limit of the transient response. A headphone can have faster transient response even if it wasn't designed for that specific speed. I can have lots of other examples. If you put more power into something, it will go faster. Pretty sure a company that sells $50 headphones haven't tested them with $20 000 DACs. The DAC is the limiting factor, most of the stuff is pretty mediocre and it's hard and expensive to get all the information of a music file. I don't think, there is a DAC that can extract all the information, let alone a transducer that can do it. Even rich people are still searching for the perfect sound. When you test only sabre vs AKM vs Ti shit DACs, of course you won't feel any difference on transient response. You just get a different flavour but with mediocre resolution.

[@AFlyingCookieLOL]

Have you even tried a double blind test? DAC was never the limiting factor, including if studio grade equipment is used. The problem has never been resolution or the DAC, it has either been the drivers or people picking crappy speakers. It is not always about power as you quickly run into issues especially output. Rich people are stupid, they only want to throw money to find a solution and end up with something less than stellar. Efficiency is the way to go and there are many ways to do it. A dac does NOT increase the efficiency of a driver period.

[@massivemikeh]

I agree. The DAC is where the magic happens.

[@shroud1390]

@@AFlyingCookieLOL you make no sense. You say the dac is never the limiting factor but then some how conclude the rich people overspending on dacs get less than stellar results

[@skandiaart]

@@shroud1390 most higher end dacs are worse than lower end for some reason, to confirm it you can take a look at the ASR forum. Dacs have way lower distortion and influence on the frequency response than the speaker/headphone and the amplifier combined. As most lower end dacs like the usb c adapter from apple has lower distortion than all headphones today and most amplifiers you can safely say that a dac does matter the least….

[@shroud1390]

@@skandiaart the fact that higherend dacs have higher distortion just tells you the reduction of sound quality to a distortion measurement is pretty meaningless as are specs in general. I have at least 7 dacs and the best sounding one is the one that measures the worst…

[@sauhamm3821]

imho dacs matter in presentation - i/o and connectivity and features... but not sound. when my dude said inexpensive dacs sound flat or don't have good bass...? what... WHAT??!! so basically you can't have good music until you spend $10000 in this hobby? give me a damn break... wow. make a new video - this time include a rca switch box ... make the whole setup as "high end" as you can and the only variable will be a $100 jds atom+ dac. i bet all the money in the world, not a single person is going to sit and listen and when you switch from $100 dac to $2000 dac and then say, "option 1 is the cheap dac, option 2 is the expensive one..." many audiophiles have done this test - the same number fail miserably... same with any sighted test - just watched a video yesterday of a dude demoing coffee and how it was brewed. sighted? he got it every time and waxed poetic about it ad nausem. blind? he was about 10% and openly admitted he couldn't tell - fittingly, there were zero waxes... he didn't spend a lot of time talking about them, just over and over saying, "yeah i really can't tell the difference, it's just so close..." dacs are closer than that in sound quality. but hey, if you don't believe me - go right on ahead and get your ABX on, i'll be right here with "i told you so..." at the ready.